JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!

The issue with ported subs has to do with the tuning point. With less power, they can go deep/deeper than sealed, but they roll off steeply below the tuning point. Sealed subs need a lot of power to get the excursion they need for the low freqs, but they roll of at a more gentle slope than ported ones. Either way, 5 Hz is a tough nut to crack.

Randy
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post #1082 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!

Hsu MBM (50-80hz)
JL Fathom 13 (20-50hz)
Thigpen Rotary Sub (DC-20hz)

The ultimate bass system?

JP
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post #1083 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

The issue with ported subs has to do with the tuning point. With less power, they can go deep/deeper than sealed, but they roll off steeply below the tuning point. Sealed subs need a lot of power to get the excursion they need for the low freqs, but they roll of at a more gentle slope than ported ones. Either way, 5 Hz is a tough nut to crack.

I'm not sure I understand the tuning point stuff. Which do you think could get closer, the Trinity or the f113?

I'm sure the correct answer is the Gotham, right
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post #1084 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 07:44 PM
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I doubt either one will give you useful levels below 10-12Hz. As zora posted, the Thigpen will, but at $12k. I don't need to hear 5 Hz maybe twice a year for that price.

Randy
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post #1085 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 07:55 PM
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I currently own a SVS PB12-Ultra/2 in a room 20 X 35 feet. I am considering selling my SVS and getting a DD-18 or JL 113.

Do you think I would notice a difference as far as sound quality is concerned? What about total SPL output? I can't decide for the life of me wither to keep the SVS or upgrade.

Has anyone owned an SVS and can offer an opinion? Generally speaking how much more low bass output does a JL113 have over the DD-18? I love the fact that the DD-18 has a very sophisticated limiter.

Thanks,

-Brian

Brian R. Smith
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post #1086 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I doubt either one will give you useful levels below 10-12Hz. As zora posted, the Thigpen will, but at $12k. I don't need to hear 5 Hz maybe twice a year for that price.

I understand, but which do you think can go lower?
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post #1087 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 08:15 PM
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If you look at the specs, the Trinity should best the Fathom. More cone plus the PRs. Almost as powerful an amp 2000/2500. JL doesn't have the FR published. The Def states 10-200 but not the +- spec. They also don't state the tuning point of the PRs. One issue that keeps coming up with Def is their published specs. I am only paraphrasing here as I don't know, but many have said that Defs low end is not a usable low end, only that the driver responds at that freq. So it may move some air at 10 Hz, but not enough for you to hear or feel. They also state a 2000 Watt amp, but don't state if that is continuous or peak. I would bet it is peak. You may have to wait for independent testing to find out if it lives up to its claims.

This may also be true with the Fathom as they don't post FR.

Maybe someone knows of any performance measurements made on either of these subs that will show true FR.

Randy
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post #1088 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 08:45 PM
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Even if the Def Tech can hit 2db more at 1-2hz deeper, you will most likely never notice the difference. Surely not enought to give up everythng else the JL does better.
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post #1089 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I'm not sure I understand the tuning point stuff. Which do you think could get closer, the Trinity or the f113?

I'm sure the correct answer is the Gotham, right

The ports are nothing more than a tube that will be excited at a certain FR. If you lengthen the tube, reduce the cross section, or increase the size of the box, you lower the tuning point. I don't understand the reduced point when you reduce the cross section, but that is what happens when you block a port.

Ported subs usually have a lower rated amp than a sealed sub. Above the tuning point, they have enough excursion and power to carry the load. As they approach the tuning point, they can't maintain the excursion needed to produce usable SPL. This is where the port gets excited and aids the driver. Below the tuning point, the port stops aiding and the driver/amp just don't have anything left to give. So they go quiet very quickly at this point.

Have you ever seen the Blue Man Group play their PVC instruments? Pounding on the end of the tube is similar to how a ported sub works. When the sound wave inside the box is at the resonant frequency of the tube, the tube starts to amplify the sound. Above or below that frequency, the port is mostly inactive.

PRs work in a similar way. The PR is a weighted and balanced driver without a motor. When you approach the tuning point of the PR, it starts to oscillate. the oscillation moves air, aiding the active driver. Above and below the tuning point, the PR doesn't move much.

Randy
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post #1090 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 08:49 PM
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BTW the ARO function was bypassed when John (Jakeman) was over. I just had some "cut" on the ELF trim as well as a "dip" programmed into my Anthem D1 around 35hz.

I bought the Fathoms mainly for home theater. I'm still a believer in the full-range main speaker for my 2 channel listening, although I will try my ATC 50s with the sub when I get around to it. That being said, I don't know of any sub that puts out more output for anywhere near the size/price and that's why I bought them (and I could have bought almost any sub out there). Yeah, the Genelec HTS6 is powerful but it's also huge. The large SVS is, well, large! Same with the Definitive Tech Trinity. If you can find more output for less money then there will probably be some type of tradeoff. Sounds like some people like a little more tactile feel and that is easy to dial in. I don't actually know of any sub that has uniformly more output than this one in a cosmetically acceptable package with the same quality (Geez, I'm beginning to sound like TheEAR!!!! )

I hope no-one makes a buying decision on my or Jakeman's "mini-review" because it's still being done in an "unfinished" basement. Plus it's obvious Jakeman and I have slightly different tastes as I thought some of the bass on the music tracks was overdone (we were running the subs without any processing for some of the time). Go listen to them for yourself if you get a chance if you are seriously considering them, or just buy them...

Someone on another thread made a good point about the settings that people prefer on their subs are their own and don't necessarily say anything about the subs in question. That is so true. I've made my biases clear in that I prefer quality to quantity if I have to trade one off. I don't believe you have to make the trade with a PAIR of these Fathoms. I also have a B&W ASW4000 sub which is a large-box vented 15incher which is fabulous for home theatre. It was reviewed favourably and has huge output down to 25hz with pretty good output at 20hz. I haven't tried it in the same spot as the Fathoms in my new house but, as expected, a pair of the Fathoms is in a totally different league in terms of output and quality based on the B&W in my old place as well as in my current house (but in a different location within the room). I used to believe that large vented boxes were the only way to go for home theater satisfaction but I don't anymore. You can make a Fathom sound bass-heavy and overbearing if you like but you can't make most other high-output subs sound musical and "tight".

For those people auditioning any sub be it the Fathoms, DD18, SVS etc... when you are in someone's house or at the dealer and you are assessing a sub, ask yourself if the room shape, size, etc... are similar to your own room. Scrutinize the settings to see if they jive with your own preferences. I don't know any dealers that let you try the subs at home so if you find one treat them like gold!

I made my decision to buy the subs based on reading the published reviews, the mini-reviews on this website (and some reading between the lines), Craigsubs measurements, and the technical specs/size etc..... There are no stocking dealers around here (Toronto) so it was a bit of a gamble, and I think it has paid off.

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post #1091 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb540 View Post

Even if the Def Tech can hit 2db more at 1-2hz deeper, you will most likely never notice the difference. Surely not enought to give up everythng else the JL does better.

That might be true, but what do we know about the things the Fathom does better than the Trinity? I haven't heard from anyone that actually has one.

Randy
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post #1092 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!

This deep you will only pass using multiple 18" ubber excursion woofers in a IB installation or the fan subs(another IB type sub,when best performance is to be extracted).

The Trinity starts to roll severly @16Hz ,look at the optimistic numbers posted on definitive website.They claim 128dB @ 20hz(probably the BIG portion resides 20-50hz where you will have hellacious output) and falls to 116dB @ 16Hz.

They very probably used corner loading and measured a peak with no distortion limit.In this case no longer as impressive for a larger sub. Note the 12dB drop from 20 to 16hz max output! Now imagine the drop further down probably 110dB @ 12Hz and below 10hz you cannot expect much,and distortion would be sky high.

I would like to see Mr Nousaine test this sub. Or our local AVS tester ...I name Craig.

The sealed f113,has very good max output ,but it has its limits.One driver ,a 13.5" one even the most capable one cannot move mountains. I tested in my room a single f113 does great to a bit under 16hz. Pomp & Pipes organ music sounds majestic,using two gets me the freedom to reach levels to my liking.

5-7hz have to be played back at at least 110dB and more to have an impact,and 120dB goal is ideal.This however is only a reality using two to three fan subs.Major cost ,or an army of 18" IB woofers in a IB configuration.

As long as you have a sub capable of reaching 10hz or very close with tactile output you should be good.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #1093 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 10:38 PM
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fair enough question ransac. I owned the Trinity before I replaced it with a Velo DD-15 v2.2. I felt I had a genuine increase in sound quality but the Trinity would play louder for sure. When the JL's became available I purchased both the 112 and 113. SQ of both the JL's surpassed the Velo with the 113 having a considerable increase in overall SPL as well. So I guess from my stand point, and what I have discovered through actual listening and not statistical measuring, I think the JL's offer 95% of what makes the Trinity great..............high spl down low. They also offer a level of detail and accuracy the Trinity will never offer. For me this (JL113 vs Trinity) is a easy choice. The JL may not be the last word in musicality (for that look no further than dual Voce Divina Contrabbasso's or the Talon Thunderbird) but for powered subs in this price-range, the JL offers such a great combination it is almost a no-brainer type purchase. For people who live and die by printed/published stats, the JL might not be for them though.
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post #1094 of 6776 Old 01-07-2007, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!

I would look towards the SubMersive subwoofer bij Mark Seaton for any meaningful extension in that frequency range, especially if you have a moderately sized room and stone/concrete walls. The way the SubMersive drops off at the lower end (12dB/octave) is compensated by room influences so you can get a flat response from 8-10Hz up. At 5-7Hz there would still be reasonable output levels I would presume.
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post #1095 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

Nice write up John. It sounds like you came to many of the same conclusions as I did when I compared Rob's (RMK!) DD18 and the F113 (link). I was surprised you used the same material as we did, but if I recall, Rob go the Mino CD from you. We only played the Moun Madinina track. There was a short burst of deep bass that made the Velo flutter, probably synthesized as I don't think there is any natural bass guitar that can cause the DD18 a problem.

I found them both to be a little thin on WOTW and U-571, but that could have just been Rob's set up.

I am one of those 'SPL is everything' types as I only use mine for HT. I too find my big ported sub gives me a more satisfying tactile impact than the DD18 or the F113, but again, that's probably from differences in settings.

Hi Randy

Actually it was Rob who turned me on to Mino Cinelu, bassist and percussionist extrodinaire, and a good sub test candidate. There are several very good bass heavy tracks but I thought I'd play that one to compare notes with you and Rob.

I wish JL would release a FR graph like many companies do. Based on the quick close mic test , I don't think their is as much below 20hz output as some big ported subs hence the less tactile feel. The port does have its benefits even if it does introduce artifacts which aren't present with the sealed subs. This is another case where I wish we had CEA standard distortion weighted measurement to compare performance.

In any event the JL subs are outstanding performers.

John
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post #1096 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post

I currently own a SVS PB12-Ultra/2 in a room 20 X 35 feet. I am considering selling my SVS and getting a DD-18 or JL 113.

Do you think I would notice a difference as far as sound quality is concerned? What about total SPL output? I can't decide for the life of me wither to keep the SVS or upgrade.

Has anyone owned an SVS and can offer an opinion? Generally speaking how much more low bass output does a JL113 have over the DD-18? I love the fact that the DD-18 has a very sophisticated limiter.

Thanks,

-Brian

You have to consider what are your main applications: HT or music. That sub is a fine choice for HT and I had a PC-Ultra in my multi-sub setup for a long time 12hz tuned. There is a definite improvement in sound quality owing primarily to the sealed alignment and the superior amp/drivers in the JL and Velo but you are going to give up some output and tactile feel moving from the Ultra/2, so it depends what is more important to you. I'll let others opine on your question regarding low bass output between the JL113 and the DD-18.

John
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post #1097 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

If you look at the specs, the Trinity should best the Fathom. More cone plus the PRs. Almost as powerful an amp 2000/2500. JL doesn't have the FR published. The Def states 10-200 but not the +- spec. They also don't state the tuning point of the PRs. One issue that keeps coming up with Def is their published specs. I am only paraphrasing here as I don't know, but many have said that Defs low end is not a usable low end, only that the driver responds at that freq. So it may move some air at 10 Hz, but not enough for you to hear or feel. They also state a 2000 Watt amp, but don't state if that is continuous or peak. I would bet it is peak. You may have to wait for independent testing to find out if it lives up to its claims.

This may also be true with the Fathom as they don't post FR.

Maybe someone knows of any performance measurements made on either of these subs that will show true FR.

I do know that the amplifier section in the F113 is rated at 2500 W RMS.

-Eli

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post #1098 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

I wish JL would release a FR graph like many companies do. Based on the quick close mic test , I don't think their is as much below 20hz output as some big ported subs hence the less tactile feel. The port does have its benefits even if it does introduce artifacts which aren't present with the sealed subs. This is another case where I wish we had CEA standard distortion weighted measurement to compare performance.

In any event the JL subs are outstanding performers.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...e-results.html

There are some measurements on the F113 I could find. Looks pretty impressive.
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post #1099 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJEli View Post

I do know that the amplifier section in the F113 is rated at 2500 W RMS.

-Eli

How they can extract that much power from a household 120V circuit remains a mystery. I'm assuming that is a peak number.
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post #1100 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post

How they can extract that much power from a household 120V circuit remains a mystery. I'm assuming that is a peak number.

Its not. It has been discussed by Manville here on AVS and on JLs website.

"Our electronics engineering team, armed with vast experience in switching amplifier design, was ready to tackle this tough project. The power goals were lofty, which created a huge challenge when the realities of typical home electrical circuits were considered. An intense analysis of typical program material and its dynamic demands allowed the design team to balance current draw and actual output power requirements relative to the system's impedance characteristics.

After careful study, a pair of precisely engineered switching amplifiers employing JL Audio's patented Class D feedback technology were created. These advanced designs are capable of unclipped output voltages equivalent to 1500 watts (f112) and 2500 watts (f113) of RMS power when referenced to the nominal loudspeaker impedance, allowing us to take full advantage of each driver's full excursion envelope.

It's not magic, but it certainly borders on it. "

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post #1101 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 07:51 AM
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A dedicated line might be in order. A 15-amp circuit can handle a total of 1,800 watts, while a 20-amp circuit can handle a total of 2,400 watts, but these figures represent circuits that are fully loaded. In practice, you should limit the load on a 15-amp circuit to no more than 1,440 watts, and the load on a 20-amp line should exceed no more than 1,920 watts.

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post #1102 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 08:15 AM
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JLs web site does state the amp is rated at 2500 Wrms for short term. So it is peak.

Randy
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post #1103 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 08:23 AM
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The website does says "short-term" for those numbers.

http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10456.pdf

The owners manual does recommend a dedicated AC circuit for each Fathom.

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post #1104 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 08:36 AM
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I don't see a fuse on the 113? So they aren't UL approved?
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post #1105 of 6776 Old 01-08-2007, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...e-results.html

There are some measurements on the F113 I could find. Looks pretty impressive.

Thanks Richard. Interesting thread with the usual suspects. Glad to see others are starting to clamour for CEA 2010 distortion weighted measurements. It would make these discussions much better for all with less confusion.

Those JL graphs are impressive and corroborate nicely with the close mic sweeps we ran. Still curious how quickly response falls off compared to the other subs. Also, how those SPL numbers would stack up if they were distortion weighted. I suspect very well based on what I heard.

John
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post #1106 of 6776 Old 01-10-2007, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post

I don't see a fuse on the 113? So they aren't UL approved?

Wait a minute,I'll check tonight. The Sunfire (active and PR) are not UL approved,if the VC is shorted...you may have problems. Well I have four Sunfire subs and none ever had any issues,always connected.My Mark II(now sold,replaced by EQ) was purchased when it came out.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #1107 of 6776 Old 01-11-2007, 04:16 PM
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When I auditioned the f113 in TX yesterday, the sales guy said he was extremely impressed with the ARO. He thought it made a HUGE difference in the sound quality of the sub. That's a big factor to me as I'm not much of a tweaker. But it seems like you guys here don't put much stock in it. Is that just because you prefer to do your own setup or because you don't think the ARO does a good job?

I think I've narrowed down my choices to the f113 or the Submersive. The ARO makes me lean toward the f113 because I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to set up the Submersive correctly. Any thoughts?
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post #1108 of 6776 Old 01-11-2007, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

When I auditioned the f113 in TX yesterday, the sales guy said he was extremely impressed with the ARO. He thought it made a HUGE difference in the sound quality of the sub. That's a big factor to me as I'm not much of a tweaker. But it seems like you guys here don't put much stock in it. Is that just because you prefer to do your own setup or because you don't think the ARO does a good job?

I think I've narrowed down my choices to the f113 or the Submersive. The ARO makes me lean toward the f113 because I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to set up the Submersive correctly. Any thoughts?


When threads start getting as long as this one it becomes hard to go through it all so Ill chime in as many others will.

The consensus on ARO is that it is In Fact a GOOD sub eq that makes the F113 the exceptional product that it is. ARO, however, is no replacement for an SMS-1 pretty much because of the bands eq'd. Maybe this is the negative bias you've perceived against it?

If your not getting an SMS-1, then ARO is definitely the way to go...

If you do go the with the submersive as this is not a bad sub in its own right, it would be that much better with an SMS-1. The SMS-1, with more options, will require more tweaking than ARO.
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post #1109 of 6776 Old 01-11-2007, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TrzVpr View Post

The consensus on ARO is that it is In Fact a GOOD sub eq that makes the F113 the exceptional product that it is. ARO, however, is no replacement for an SMS-1 pretty much because of the bands eq'd. Maybe this is the negative bias you've perceived against it?

Thanks for the feedback. I think it was a matter of perspective. I'm coming from a non-tweaker/non-audiophile perspective and I'm thinking the ARO would be a big improvement for me.

And maybe more experienced serious tweakers here find the ARO a little lacking compared to the other things you mentioned.

So I think for me both the sub and the ARO will be a huge improvement over my current setup.
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post #1110 of 6776 Old 01-11-2007, 05:39 PM
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Hmmm, I just looked at the SMS-1 @ the Velodyne site. That looks pretty easy to use. Maybe I should consider an SMS-1 with the Submersive instead of the f113?
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