JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

High harmonic distortion down low is usually perceived as tighter, more percussive subjectively by the listening comparos I've run of a sub with high HD at 20-30Hz vs a very low HD sub.

Yep, I'm glad you said that. Based on the "subjective" listening impressions I have read on this site and others, though they may not want to admit it, there are people who prefer the sound of more THD down low. Now you combine this with an already boosted upper bass range with a natural sealed subwoofer, and the myth or stereotype is easily explained.
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post #92 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I know this isn't the speaker forum, but I have been seriously considering the Ascends. How did they sound and how did they compare to the NHTs?

I'll send you a PM.

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post #93 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Yep, I'm glad you said that. Based on the "subjective" listening impressions I have read on this site and others, though they may not want to admit it, there are people who prefer the sound of more THD down low. Now you combine this with an already boosted upper bass range with a natural sealed subwoofer, and the myth or stereotype is easily explained.

That shouldn't surprise anyone. The same thing can apply to speakers as well. 'Tis not always the most "accurate" speaker/sub that sounds most pleasing to the listener.
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post #94 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 04:08 PM
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Before this gets sidetracked into a discussion regarding high THD in subs and speakers, you may want to look at the measurement results I posted on page 3 of this thread (post #85).

Thanks.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
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post #95 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

Yup, you got it!

They go really low and don't play very high and they stay pretty darned flat in between.

LOL! Now there's a measurement even I can understand.

Jack
 

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post #96 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 04:46 PM
 
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Guys, I thought everyone might like to see the graphs from the newest TrueRTA software. I just got a new laptop, with a soundcard rated to 10 Hz. Here are graphs of the Hsu VTF-3 HO with no EQ, and with just using the SMS1 AUTO-EQ.

The Hsu is in its 16 Hz tune, turbo installed.

We will be doing similar graphs with the Fathoms, and also look for more graphs of movies scenes using the newer software over the next few weeks.

Hsu with no EQ:



Hsu with Auto EQ.



Even the Auto EQ function with the SMS-1 did a very nice job cleaning up the FR. The subwoofer is being crossed @ 80 Hz in the Parasound, so the software "pushed" the response above 80 Hz "up" .... when running TrueRTA graph, the crossover is defeated, so the response "looks" higher than it really is, if that makes sense.
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post #97 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 04:58 PM
 
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Here is the JL Audio Chart ....

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post #98 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 05:28 PM
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Well I love my F112 great powerful sub in a small package
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post #99 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Yep, I'm glad you said that. Based on the "subjective" listening impressions I have read on this site and others, though they may not want to admit it, there are people who prefer the sound of more THD down low. Now you combine this with an already boosted upper bass range with a natural sealed subwoofer, and the myth or stereotype is easily explained.

Unless you consider the P'Digm servos, Brian Ding's servo kits, DIY using Adire's ultra low distortion drivers and, of course, the lowest THD subs out there, Velo's servo subs, and, apparently the JL subs (as Manville's posted numbers seem to show).

Don't take my comment too far out of context, it was a general, not a defining statement. The 'myth' is adhered to by many of the brightest guys in the field, and I doubt your explanation would be much of a consideration to them.

Manville,

Most impressive numbers. I imagine they show some room/boundary gain and, even though these are THD limited numbers, they indicate a very smooth in-room response above 30Hz.

Does the F-112 have a HP filter, and, if so, where and what order? Or, should we wait for the ultimate GP measurements or feedback from owners? It's impossible to tell from the THD limited output numbers and I'm curious to know.

Here's an overlay of TN's initial numbers onto the chart Manville posted for those who'd like to see the huge difference between JL's test and TN's initial report...

Bosso
LL
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post #100 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 05:44 PM
 
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Well, it is nice to see all of the interest in these subs especially after such a long delay! The listening public appears to be eagerly awaiting reviews from consumers and professionals alike. JL seems to be on the edge of really making a run into the home market with their powered speakers that have some of the same technology as these subs. Whether audiophiles will embrace these powered speakers as easily as they are embracing their new subs is anyones guess. ML, why did JL decide to build powered speakers? Kinda a gamble dont you think? However I hear they are quite good. When will they start to ship?
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post #101 of 6809 Old 10-25-2006, 06:47 PM
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Nhtfred,

We will announce more details on our powered full-range products at next year's CEDIA. This year it was just a sneak preview at the direction of our full-range products. I guess you do limit your audience a bit by going powered and digitally corrected but if your goal is ultimate performance this approach is really impossible to beat with conventional passive designs. I'm sure we will also offer some more conventional full-range products in due course.
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post #102 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 04:05 AM
 
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Thats great. One thing I have picked up from these forums and through meeting a few of your guys out at CES is that you really seem to love this stuff. I would imagine that everyone in the audio industry has some form of affection for great sound quality, but it really seems to be a passion for you guys. Congratulations on the great early reviews, too bad Stereophile misspelled the name of your company on their cover, but at least the brief review was positive.
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post #103 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 04:30 AM
 
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Manville ... If I actually DO this during the WOTW Lightning scene:



Does it void the warranty ? This looks like a SLIGHT over excursion ....
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post #104 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 06:08 AM
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That is a nice 3-D exploded model! I wonder if they are using Solid-Works. I did some similar work at a company I worked for back in the mid/late 90's. Wish I was still doing 3-D stuff.

Back to the original topic.........
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post #105 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHTFRED View Post

Thats great. One thing I have picked up from these forums and through meeting a few of your guys out at CES is that you really seem to love this stuff. I would imagine that everyone in the audio industry has some form of affection for great sound quality, but it really seems to be a passion for you guys. Congratulations on the great early reviews, too bad Stereophile misspelled the name of your company on their cover, but at least the brief review was positive.

Thanks for the kind words, Fred. We do love this stuff.

We were surprised at the brief nature of the "review" in Stereophile. We thought it would be a full equipment report but it turned out to be a brief item in Kal's column. Not that this is a bad thing, we just expected more in-depth coverage. We were also dismayed that they put "JL Labs" on the cover instead of "JL Audio". At least they corrected it in their online article after we mentioned the error to them.

We also just received an Editor's Choice for the f112 in the latest issue of The Perfect Vision (online now), which is a really nice honor. Robert Harley is doing a full review which we expect to see in the next issue. I really can't complain about press coverage in general... apart from the mysterious TN test, everything has been very positive and given us a nice boost which is leading to excellent sales. I know at least three members of this forum who sought out a dealer and purchased Fathoms in the last month, which is very gratifying as well.

It's all good.
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post #106 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Manville ... If I actually DO this during the WOTW Lightning scene:



Does it void the warranty ? This looks like a SLIGHT over excursion ....

WOTW at WOT will do that... careful!

Also, that is actually a retouched photo of the display we used at CEDIA... it's not a 3D rendering (although we do use Solidworks).
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post #107 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 06:36 AM
 
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I had a Sunfire sub that did that one time, cost me 300 bucks plus shipping to get it put back together!
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post #108 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 06:46 AM
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I watched WOTW last night for the first time since I bought the Twin F113. The unexplained rumble in the midwest about 8:15pm was the first time the machine came out of ground in the movie. My lab (think 85lb child) got on the couch with me!! Damn it was awsome.

gthomas
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post #109 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

Thanks for the kind words, Fred. We do love this stuff.

We were surprised at the brief nature of the "review" in Stereophile. We thought it would be a full equipment report but it turned out to be a brief item in Kal's column. Not that this is a bad thing, we just expected more in-depth coverage. We were also dismayed that they put "JL Labs" on the cover instead of "JL Audio". At least they corrected it in their online article after we mentioned the error to them.

We also just received an Editor's Choice for the f112 in the latest issue of The Perfect Vision (online now), which is a really nice honor. Robert Harley is doing a full review which we expect to see in the next issue. I really can't complain about press coverage in general... apart from the mysterious TN test, everything has been very positive and given us a nice boost which is leading to excellent sales. I know at least three members of this forum who sought out a dealer and purchased Fathoms in the last month, which is very gratifying as well.

It's all good.


I SOOO want to be number four..

I got a good job here in Aerospace and both me and the Wifey are working plenty of overtime and both have decided that we will treat ourselves to a descent HT(40%)/Music(60%) system..

I am waiting for the shootout plus other reviews to come out but when a get a good deal on a pair of F113's I will defenitely bite the bullet..

Manville, wanna help me get a considerable discount?

Also, I havent bought speakers yet and was really considering the Paradigm signatures but I have always loved Active speakers.. Any more info on the powered speakers? I will do more music than movies and am very interested in more info, even it means having to wait a little..

This thread has me very excited as I check it daily for updates. =0
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post #110 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nethomas View Post

I watched WOTW last night for the first time since I bought the Twin F113. The unexplained rumble in the midwest about 8:15pm was the first time the machine came out of ground in the movie. My lab (think 85lb child) got on the couch with me!! Damn it was awsome.

So that is what I felt in Kansas City
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post #111 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 04:40 PM
 
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The tracking #'s were sent today, and the pair of 113's, the single 112, the Hsu VTF-3 HO's, and the PB12-Plus/2 are gonna get abused this weekend.

Look for new max output charts on each with a variety of movies, as it is still raining, and no GP tests can be done.
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post #112 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 07:29 PM
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Looking forward to it Craig!
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post #113 of 6809 Old 10-26-2006, 07:59 PM
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Here is a review of the JL F112 at Sound and Vision if anyone is interested.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/spe...subwoofer.html

The reviewer basically thinks it's a phenomenal sub. It's out of my reach though.
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post #114 of 6809 Old 10-27-2006, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Actually, I often do measurements but, mostly, for my own help in setup and for insight. OTOH, they are not comprehensive and rarely see print.............as in this case.

Right,
I meant, measurments what Ed, TN, or Keith Yates does with subs.

sent via Morse code...........

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post #115 of 6809 Old 10-27-2006, 07:11 AM
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hun,

I agree, and would add Ilkka's name in there. PITA he lives in Europe, but I think he's the most progressive guy out there, and likely has more time to devote to the subject than Sir Edward.

TN's list doesn't include most of the top subs available today and is only good for it's own numbers. Yates isn't likely to ever do another shootout.

Pretty narrow field, IMO.

I say get one to Ilkka. And, hurry up, it's about to snow at the North Pole, or wherever he lives.

Bosso
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post #116 of 6809 Old 10-27-2006, 08:50 AM
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Unfortunately, we don't have a 230V, 50 Hz version of the Fathoms at this point, so it might be tough for Ilkka to test.

We are preparing ground plane measurements according to Keith Yates' methodology. Will get those up on the JL Audio website as soon as possible.

Also, we are sending a second f112 to TN... after re-testing the originial unit he is pretty sure there is something seriously wrong with it.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
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post #117 of 6809 Old 10-27-2006, 02:16 PM
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Bosso,

Mustard or Mayo? Maybe those words would go down more easily if you dipped them in a really nice olive oil.
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post #118 of 6809 Old 10-27-2006, 02:43 PM
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Did any of you notice that the room they measured in at JL is 3200, and the other room referenced was 7200 cubic feet? seems like apples and oranges, in rooms with that much difference.

Course, i might be missing something ...
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post #119 of 6809 Old 10-27-2006, 03:01 PM
 
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One Fathom 113 is now hooked up and running in the system. Rather than run a bunch of measurements now, I ran the ARO calibration and am going to listen to some music, then watch a bass spectacular movie or 2, report the subjective stuff, THEN take the measurements.
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post #120 of 6809 Old 10-27-2006, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSEmoses View Post

Did any of you notice that the room they measured in at JL is 3200, and the other room referenced was 7200 cubic feet? seems like apples and oranges, in rooms with that much difference.

Course, i might be missing something ...

There will be some difference at very low frequencies but not the kind of discrepancies between our numbers and TN's... it's more like Red Delicious and McIntosh apples, rather than apples and oranges.
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