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post #7321 of 25141 Old 03-12-2012, 08:09 PM
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Tonight I managed to take a first measurement of my listening room's frequency response. It's definitely not my last word as I'm still learning the ropes and I'm not done reading the instructions But both my soundcard and SPL meters were calibrated, and I tried a few variations and the measurements were pretty much the same.

So... looks to me that I will benefit from the BFD I just bought. I hope it will be able to flatten out the 20-70 Hz region. (By the way, this was with an SB12-NSD playing at 75 dB, so I guess I have plenty of room gain considering I have only 10 dB drop from a 80 dB peak at 15 Hz). However it seems to me that the double-null at 90 and 100 Hz are really horrendous. Not sure what causes those; I'll have to use test tones to try to see what's rattling. Anyway that is a *huge* dip in at frequencies that are very sollicited it seems.
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post #7322 of 25141 Old 03-12-2012, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klips View Post

As you might guess; now that I have ordered the beast of subwoofers, I'm wondering if my speakers will be good enough to do it justice.

I may need to upgrade them next.

I surely must have a death wish... as I am sure my current WAF is very, very low at the moment.

It is most likely much lower then any of the presidental candidate polls. I might need secret service assigned to protect me from the WAF fallout!

So, what might I want to start looking at?

Nothing better than a good subwoofer to upgrade your HT experience. Good luck with the new baby.

TV - Panasonic 58PZ700U plasma
L/R - Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL Tweets in piano black
C - Ascend Sierra Horizon with RAAL Tweet in piano black
Surr - Polk Fxi-A6
Sub - SVS PC-13 Ultra
AVR - Denon 4520-CI
Blu-ray - OPPO 103
Comcast Set Top Box
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post #7323 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksparrow1020 View Post

Hi Guys,
Attached is a drawing of my living room where I have my HT setup. I'm not sure if I should go ahead with PB12-NSD or PB12-PLUS as I live in an apt and won't be able to play the audio at max level. Viewing time....80% movies, 20% music.
Would PB12-NSD be more than enough?
Is PB12-PLUS an overkill? Is it worth twice the cost of PB12-NSD?
Would appreciate if you guys would help me make a decision.
Thanks!

I have a similar setup and the PC12-NSD (cylinder) offers plenty of LFE. There is enough to feel it when played at louder levels.

My living room is 12x15 and opens on one side to another 850 sq ft.

Mike

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post #7324 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksparrow1020 View Post

Hi Guys,
Attached is a drawing of my living room where I have my HT setup. I'm not sure if I should go ahead with PB12-NSD or PB12-PLUS as I live in an apt and won't be able to play the audio at max level. Viewing time....80% movies, 20% music.
Would PB12-NSD be more than enough?
Is PB12-PLUS an overkill? Is it worth twice the cost of PB12-NSD?
Would appreciate if you guys would help me make a decision.
Thanks!

That is close to the size and layout of my listening area. I recently bought a PB12-NSD. I wish it had a cpl more dB's above 25Hz, but I listen real loud.
IMO, you should get the PB12 since you said you wont be pushing it that loud. The PB12+ would give you more headroom to go real loud on occassion though(~5dB more) and it would offer a little more tactile feel below 20Hz.
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post #7325 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Gotta love the effect the room has on bass response.

Yeah I guess with a PC13-Ultra in this room I would get a pretty loud DC

I think it shows that in small rooms (I don't have measurements but mine is reaaally small) even a lowly SB12 can dig surprisingly deep.

Quote:


AFAIK, nulls are largely caused by reflections off the walls/ceiling/floors that interfere with the sound emanating from your subwoofer. To really fix them, you'd need a proper application of bass trapping.

Could be cancellation from reflections on the walls and ceilings (furniture everywhere so very little floor visible!). There's nude wall behind the sub; maybe the sound reflects there. But it's about a feet from the wall, and a rough back-of-the-envelope calculation says if that causes a null it should be around 500 Hz (330 m/s divided by 0.33 m is 1000 Hz but cancellation would occur if half a wavelenght fits there).

Could also be rattling -- i.e. something (floor, ventilation ducts, etc.) absorbing all energy at that frequency due to resonnance. That could be identified with test tones I guess, but there's little I can do if it's a "floor mode". However I feel the floor vibrating at a much lower frequency (just before the tone begins to be audible around 20 Hz).

Or, I wonder if that could be interference from the mains (front floorstanding). I mean, my crossover is at 80 Hz, and trouble begins around 70 Hz. Maybe my receiver (Pioneer) is not adjusting phase/distance correctly and I get cancellation from what they're outputting in the crossover frequencies. I'll try playing with sub phase or sub distance first. Or the crossover frequency. If I raise the crossover freq to 100 Hz and the problem is shifted higher, that would be telling I guess.

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post #7326 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 08:17 PM
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If anybody knows what is going on here I'd like to know

I basically took different room response measurements while varying a single parameter, the crossover frequency. On the graphic, the gray curve is the fronts only (set to Large). From red to yellow, it's fronts + subwoofer with a crossover of 50, 80, 100 and 150 Hz.

It's amazing seeing the big null disappear as the crossover is raised.

It looks like the null is actually caused (or is linked to) the front speakers since it's there even when they play alone. Ok the frequency of the null is slightly lower but still. As the subwoofer is brought in the party, the null disappears.

I can think of a few hypotheses to explain that. The null might be in the front's response. That would be rather surprising as they're new and undamaged Energy RC-70s, which are supposed to be pretty flat in frequency. This could be a room effect that only affects the fronts. Maybe they're blasting the opposing window and getting destructive interference from the hard reflection, while the sub don't get that because of its position. Maybe it's cancellation due to another cause (subtle distance effect that causes cancellation of waves coming from both fronts).

Anyway I set my crossover higher (100 Hz vs 80 Hz previously) for now, which is far from what is recommended for my mains (60 Hz).

Weird.
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post #7327 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 08:22 PM
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Measurements aside: do you prefer the sound of your 70s crossed over at 60 or at 100?

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #7328 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 08:37 PM
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I'm thinking a room effect (floor bounce?) with your fronts. I will be looking for the opinions of the experts here, as I have a similar issue at 100Hz

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post #7329 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Measurements aside: do you prefer the sound of your 70s crossed over at 60 or at 100?

Honestly I always set it at 80 Hz and apart from the obvious peaks it was great. I just set it at 100 Hz and listening to the news right now I can't tell the difference so far

That being said the null is audible during frequency sweeps.

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post #7330 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

I'm thinking a room effect (floor bounce?) with your fronts. I will be looking for the opinions of the experts here, as I have a similar issue at 100Hz

Interesting. In my case I guess it would be more of a ceiling bouce I guess, since the floor is kind of cluttered. Anyway not sure why the sub doesn't have the same problem. At 100 Hz though the sound is more localizable so I guess the direction becomes more important. I could deploy carpeting to see the difference but it can't be permanent in my room. Well crossing at 100 Hz is not a crime ... I spent good money on the sub, why not use it

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post #7331 of 25141 Old 03-13-2012, 08:58 PM
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Come to think of it, brian6751 a few pages back showed us his room response and there was also a big dip right at 100 Hz. Seems to be if not universal, at least not that exceptional.

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post #7332 of 25141 Old 03-14-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I know at one time the cylinders were assembled here. Going to the "wayback machine" in 2011:
Don't know if that's changed since.

I think it has changed. This is the response I got from SVS when I asked them this question a week ago...
"Assembly of subwoofers is done in China. We have always sourced components from all over the globe to build our subwoofers and now we are doing final assembly in the PRC because we do as much/more business overseas (Europe, United Kingdom, China, Taiwan, Korea, India, Singapore, Philippines, Russia, Australia) as we do in the USA and Canada. Using Asia as a main distribution hub is far less expensive than shipping to those regions from the USA, and that was the driving force behind sourcing final assembly in Asia. At any rate, they're still the same world-class subwoofers and we are continuously supervising final assembly with SVS employees. And we still have a facility in Ohio, USA where the subs are put through final QC inspection by SVS personnel before shipping."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

For an apartment, I'd think the PB12-NSD would be more than adequate. I've got a similar sized room (~2500 cubic feet) and feel my PC12-NSD has sufficient output for that space. Of course, when I get it going, my wife can also readily hear the system playing from 2 floors up, so be careful with the volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmwilker View Post

I have a similar setup and the PC12-NSD (cylinder) offers plenty of LFE. There is enough to feel it when played at louder levels.

My living room is 12x15 and opens on one side to another 850 sq ft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

That is close to the size and layout of my listening area. I recently bought a PB12-NSD. I wish it had a cpl more dB's above 25Hz, but I listen real loud.
IMO, you should get the PB12 since you said you wont be pushing it that loud. The PB12+ would give you more headroom to go real loud on occassion though(~5dB more) and it would offer a little more tactile feel below 20Hz.

Thanks everybody. Based on your input, reviews and SVS's recommendation, I have placed an order for PB12-NSD. I will be exchanging it within a year for PB12-PLUS when I move to a bigger place as I will get full credit from my PB12-NSD order towards the purchase of PB12-PLUS.
Hoping it would be delivered this week so that I could play with it over the weekend. Thanks guys!
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post #7333 of 25141 Old 03-14-2012, 08:01 PM
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Just got my PB13-Ultra unpacked and plugged in...

SO... THIS IS WHAT A SUB IS SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE!!!
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post #7334 of 25141 Old 03-15-2012, 05:54 AM
 
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pics please!!
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post #7335 of 25141 Old 03-15-2012, 07:08 AM
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I've had my PC12-PLUS for a couple weeks now and I have it hooked up to my Onkyo TX-NR1009 with the LH RCA. Am I loosing anything by just hooking up the the LH RCA? Just wondering if I should hook up RH & LH to my sub? Thanks
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post #7336 of 25141 Old 03-16-2012, 04:21 PM
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I don't think you would see any gain from 2 cables the LFE and X/O are the same from both outputs.
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post #7337 of 25141 Old 03-17-2012, 10:31 PM
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So today I was checking out SVS' website. I already have the PB13-U which I love.

My wife walks in the room and looks at me. Asking u gonna get another one ?
I say well u know my birthday is in 2 weeks ?
And she replies, tell u what, why don't u just get one more ? But not the expensive one, just choose the cheap one and I'll give it to u.

So now, guess what ?! I'm getting a 12-NSD, I havent decided whether I should get the PB or PC

Any recommendations of what would go well with my PB13U?
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post #7338 of 25141 Old 03-18-2012, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by januza View Post

So today I was checking out SVS' website. I already have the PB13-U which I love.

My wife walks in the room and looks at me. Asking u gonna get another one ?
I say well u know my birthday is in 2 weeks ?
And she replies, tell u what, why don't u just get one more ? But not the expensive one, just choose the cheap one and I'll give it to u.

So now, guess what ?! I'm getting a 12-NSD, I havent decided whether I should get the PB or PC

Any recommendations of what would go well with my PB13U?

I think either would only limit your pb13.

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post #7339 of 25141 Old 03-18-2012, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by januza View Post

So today I was checking out SVS' website. I already have the PB13-U which I love.

My wife walks in the room and looks at me. Asking u gonna get another one ?
I say well u know my birthday is in 2 weeks ?
And she replies, tell u what, why don't u just get one more ? But not the expensive one, just choose the cheap one and I'll give it to u.

So now, guess what ?! I'm getting a 12-NSD, I havent decided whether I should get the PB or PC

Any recommendations of what would go well with my PB13U?

I'd give Ed Mullen a call at SVS. He gives excellent advice without the up-sale to you. I don't see how with would limit your PB13U, but Ed would know. If I was ever wad to get a second sub, I'd be very tempted to try the PC line. The footprint of the PB13U is substantial. Again, Ed wasn't hesistant at all in describing how the PBs, PCs, and the SBs perform against each other.

While, a smaller 2nd smaller sub isn't going to be play as loud as your curent one, I believe the two can complement each other. IMHO, of course... Ed's clearly the expert on these things.

P.S. I hate using the ipad or iphone to do type this stuff... Way to easy to mis-spell and make so many typos... lol
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post #7340 of 25141 Old 03-18-2012, 05:00 PM
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hello all! i've just jumped in and ordered an svs sb13-plus and am pumped about getting it and setting it up. i'm currently using a hsu vtf3-HO (about five years old now), and wanted to try out a sealed sub. i have a descent-sized room (22x19x9, open on one side to an even larger kitchen and eating area) and may need to add another one, but figured i'd just try one and if i overall don't like it, then the return shipping won't be as bad (although i'm really thinking i'm going to love it!). anyway, the set-up seems a little more involved than what i'm used to. i was searching for some thoughts on where to start with the set-up. this sub is smaller and more attractive and i may have better placement options, so i do understand the importance of that, but mostly wondering about the peq and such. i'm running paradigm studio 60v5 fronts, cc-590 center, studio 10 rears off of an integra 70.2 and using the audyssey xt32. do i bother w/ anything on the sub besides the gain/volume and phase, and let xt32 do it' job? or do i peq with the sub (although unsure how to do this) and then run audyssey? thanks for any help/advice. posting here b/c you know the sub best, but may also post in audyssey forum.
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post #7341 of 25141 Old 03-19-2012, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rushwj View Post

hello all! i've just jumped in and ordered an svs sb13-plus and am pumped about getting it and setting it up. i'm currently using a hsu vtf3-HO (about five years old now), and wanted to try out a sealed sub. i have a descent-sized room (22x19x9, open on one side to an even larger kitchen and eating area) and may need to add another one, but figured i'd just try one and if i overall don't like it, then the return shipping won't be as bad (although i'm really thinking i'm going to love it!). anyway, the set-up seems a little more involved than what i'm used to. i was searching for some thoughts on where to start with the set-up. this sub is smaller and more attractive and i may have better placement options, so i do understand the importance of that, but mostly wondering about the peq and such. i'm running paradigm studio 60v5 fronts, cc-590 center, studio 10 rears off of an integra 70.2 and using the audyssey xt32. do i bother w/ anything on the sub besides the gain/volume and phase, and let xt32 do it' job? or do i peq with the sub (although unsure how to do this) and then run audyssey? thanks for any help/advice. posting here b/c you know the sub best, but may also post in audyssey forum.

You probably shouldn't even adjust the phase (Chris K. from Audyssey recommends leaving it at zero and letting MultEQ handle that). MultEq XT32 is pretty advanced, so unless you have a massive mode that requires more cut than it can provide (rare but it happens), than don't worry about the PEQ settings.

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post #7342 of 25141 Old 03-19-2012, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klips View Post

I'd give Ed Mullen a call at SVS. He gives excellent advice without the up-sale to you. I don't see how with would limit your PB13U, but Ed would know. If I was ever wad to get a second sub, I'd be very tempted to try the PC line. The footprint of the PB13U is substantial. Again, Ed wasn't hesistant at all in describing how the PBs, PCs, and the SBs perform against each other.

While, a smaller 2nd smaller sub isn't going to be play as loud as your curent one, I believe the two can complement each other. IMHO, of course... Ed's clearly the expert on these things.

P.S. I hate using the ipad or iphone to do type this stuff... Way to easy to mis-spell and make so many typos... lol



Talked to Ed... He highly recommends both to compliment the PB13-U... Both PC/PB 12-NSD should how ever play a few db below the Ultra as it cannot tolerate being pushed as much as the Ultra..
Looks like im getting another SVS for the living room
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post #7343 of 25141 Old 03-20-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by januza View Post


Talked to Ed... He highly recommends both to compliment the PB13-U... Both PC/PB 12-NSD should how ever play a few db below the Ultra as it cannot tolerate being pushed as much as the Ultra..
Looks like im getting another SVS for the living room

Sweet.. As long as you adjust the gain, I think that you will be good. The WAF at my house is still extremely low beings that I litterally blew my wife's favorite picture off the wall and destroyed it within the first 30 minute of play.

NOBODY mentioned anything about sub-proofing the room before bringing a real sub in. :-)
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post #7344 of 25141 Old 03-20-2012, 05:44 PM
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I know. Gonna be good stuff!! I think I'll stick to the PB model. In my opinion that's how a sun should look.
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post #7345 of 25141 Old 03-21-2012, 09:41 AM
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So I got my MIDI interface yesterday. Last night I was able to load 12 filters to my BFD and hook it up to the sub. I made a few newb errors (like unplugging the sub while it was on -- what a THUD it made. Hope I didn't break anything).

Like many people, introducing the BFD between my receiver and sub resulted in a low-volume but quite distracting hum. For the moment I used a cheater plug to get rid of it. It works well, and I guess it's not that dangerous from a safety point of view considering the BFD is not using that much power to begin with.

I was a little bit disappointed at first as I was listening at low volume and didn't notice much difference going from "on" to "bypass". But at least the sub works; I got a tentative measurement in these two modes and it seems to work great. I'm amazed at how close the result is to REW's prediction.

This morning I listened to some music and the difference was quite subtle. But I think attenuating the peaks reduced the overall volume so I must re-calibrate the sub level now. Running the sub hotter will probably fix the perceived lack of punch compared to the bypass mode (where the peaks gave an extra humpf).

I'm still undecided though about keeping the BFD in the loop or not. I'll have to make further tests after adjusting the sub volume. But I think I was hoping for a less subtle effect. Maybe my room was not so bad to begin with.

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post #7346 of 25141 Old 03-21-2012, 10:34 AM
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Myself and the band director at the high school where I help out are both looking for sub upgrades. He recently bought a new house with a great room that is proving simply too large for his current PB10-isd. Our initial plan since my room is somewhat smaller and my current sub is not in the same league as the PB10, was for him to upgrade to something larger, like a Plus or Ultra, and I'd buy his PB10. Now I found a guy on craigslist selling a 20-39PC+ and a 16-46PC+, he wants $400 a piece for them. I came across these subs and we called the guy, thinking I could buy the 20-39 and he could take the 16-46. The guy said he doesn't have the original boxes or the port plugs, or possibly even the power cords for them. Upon a recent email we learned that he might want to keep the 20-39 for himself and only sell the larger one. Which really sucks for me. So my question for all you guys out there who know more about the worth of these things than I do is this: Is $400 or less a lights out/can't beat it price for a 20-39? Do you think I can find one fairly easily in that ball park somewhere else? If not, and I aim for the PB10, what could I expect to pay for a PB10-ISD?
Thanks for any advice you guys could give me

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post #7347 of 25141 Old 03-21-2012, 10:37 AM
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I forgot to also add that the Two PC-Pluses are 7 hours away.

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post #7348 of 25141 Old 03-21-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BNestico View Post

I forgot to also add that the Two PC-Pluses are 7 hours away.

Well IMHO that's pretty important. 7 hours both ways? That would be a 14-hours drive? How many tanks of gas does that take? Add that to the cost of the sub(s), plus a couple of lunches along the way, plus an otherwise lost day. Or two if you plan on make the trip on two days, in which case you may want to add motel fees.

I don't even know about those PCs but the drive is a pretty big investment in itself (vs just waiting a couple of days for new SVSes to get delivered).

Also can you fit the two subs in one vehicle? If you have to make the trip with two vehicles, double the tanks of gas it takes. So you may want to look at getting them picked up and shipped. I guess you could do that for around 100$/sub.

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post #7349 of 25141 Old 03-21-2012, 11:48 AM
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hello all! i've just jumped in and ordered an svs sb13-plus and am pumped about getting it and setting it up. i'm currently using a hsu vtf3-HO (about five years old now), and wanted to try out a sealed sub. i have a descent-sized room (22x19x9, open on one side to an even larger kitchen and eating area) and may need to add another one, but figured i'd just try one and if i overall don't like it, then the return shipping won't be as bad (although i'm really thinking i'm going to love it!). anyway, the set-up seems a little more involved than what i'm used to. i was searching for some thoughts on where to start with the set-up. this sub is smaller and more attractive and i may have better placement options, so i do understand the importance of that, but mostly wondering about the peq and such. i'm running paradigm studio 60v5 fronts, cc-590 center, studio 10 rears off of an integra 70.2 and using the audyssey xt32. do i bother w/ anything on the sub besides the gain/volume and phase, and let xt32 do it' job? or do i peq with the sub (although unsure how to do this) and then run audyssey? thanks for any help/advice. posting here b/c you know the sub best, but may also post in audyssey forum.

I can't recall if I answered you in the Audyssey thread, but if I didn't, the Audyssey FAQ has the info you need:

3. How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ? (click here)
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post #7350 of 25141 Old 03-21-2012, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BNestico View Post

I forgot to also add that the Two PC-Pluses are 7 hours away.

I wouldn't bother driving that far for in incomplete sub. IMO
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