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Old 12-04-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

Could it be that dynamic eq is applying too much boost to the bass?

If you are not using reference level offset on music sources, it's virtually guaranteed that dynamic EQ is over-EQing. Unlike movies, music is mixed and mastered to no sonic standard but the effective "reference level" is much lower, meaning that the sound is encoded much louder on (most) music discs. The possible exceptions are some jazz and much classical which may be closer to movie reference because there's not as much (or even any) compression in the final recordings. If your problems are with music, RLO likely will fix it.

But in my room, until my last rearrangement, I ended up liking the sub about 2 dB below where the autosetup left it, then ran DynamicEQ on top of htat. Presumably a frequency response anomaly remained after Audyssey did its EQing and its make-up volume thing that bothered my ears. So if RLO doesn't fix the issue, there's no shame in reducing the sub level. FWIW, it seems to me in general that there are fewer folks around here who find too much bass annoying than who want extra bass . . . but everybody's room and personal preferences differ . . . and you are not alone if boosted bass sounds wrong to you.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ashalc View Post

Let´s see if you guys can give me some Help. Today I have two SB-12 nsd, and i am not pleased with the total bass output. actually they do not produce the boom effect for the movies (which are 95% of my use). I know that a ported subwoofer maybe woud fit better my needs, but due to the wife factor they are not an option. My set is a 7.2 with all kef reference speakers (with integra as a processor and mcintosh as amplifier). My budget is around $ 4.000 I have two options:
1 - Remain with one SB-12 and buy one JL Fathom 113.
2 - Change both SB-12 nsd for two SB-13 Ultra.
I do not have space for ported sub and do not want other brands. So if this were your only choices which one would you choose?

I would go with option 2
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:05 AM
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So I should set Refernce level offset to 10 for my music listening source? For movies leave reference level offset at 0 right?


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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

If you are not using reference level offset on music sources, it's virtually guaranteed that dynamic EQ is over-EQing. Unlike movies, music is mixed and mastered to no sonic standard but the effective "reference level" is much lower, meaning that the sound is encoded much louder on (most) music discs. The possible exceptions are some jazz and much classical which may be closer to movie reference because there's not as much (or even any) compression in the final recordings. If your problems are with music, RLO likely will fix it.
But in my room, until my last rearrangement, I ended up liking the sub about 2 dB below where the autosetup left it, then ran DynamicEQ on top of htat. Presumably a frequency response anomaly remained after Audyssey did its EQing and its make-up volume thing that bothered my ears. So if RLO doesn't fix the issue, there's no shame in reducing the sub level. FWIW, it seems to me in general that there are fewer folks around here who find too much bass annoying than who want extra bass . . . but everybody's room and personal preferences differ . . . and you are not alone if boosted bass sounds wrong to you.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:26 AM
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My budget is around $ 4.000 I have two options:
1 - Remain with one SB-12 and buy one JL Fathom 113.
2 - Change both SB-12 nsd for two SB-13 Ultra.
I do not have space for ported sub and do not want other brands. So if this were your only choices which one would you choose?
Dual SB13-Ultra subs. cool.gif
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

Good afternoon colleagues, good afternoon here in Spain, of course.
I just called to let me know in the carrier in 1h or 2h, will come to leave my house my new PB12-Plus DSP, so I'm crazy for it to arrive.
Later delight them with some pictures of my new beast.
A hug.

Congrats smile.gif Tell us how it blends with your Ultra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

Could it be that dynamic eq is applying too much boost to the bass?

Maybe; at this point you raise an issue I had for a year. Namely, are what we are hearing optimal? I don't have friends with a better sub / HT setup than mine, so I'm not sure if what I do in terms of setup is the right thing or not. Do I obtain subpar results or is it great? Barring someone more knowledgeable / with more experience than you hearing your setup, the next best thing is to play it by ears literally. If it is any consolation, I spent a week tweaking levels, location, and EQ to get the same sound with my PC12-Plus that I had with my SB12. It's very surprising how different a sub can sound depending on all those parameters.

But what you describe indeed sounds like a peak in response that reverberates more than the rest. You tend to lower the volume because it is annoying but then you lose the rest. That's why EQing those peaks is vital. Maybe Audyssey did miss it, or you changed your sub position since you last calibrated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashalc View Post

Let´s see if you guys can give me some Help. Today I have two SB-12 nsd, and i am not pleased with the total bass output. actually they do not produce the boom effect for the movies (which are 95% of my use). I know that a ported subwoofer maybe woud fit better my needs, but due to the wife factor they are not an option. My set is a 7.2 with all kef reference speakers (with integra as a processor and mcintosh as amplifier). My budget is around $ 4.000 I have two options:
1 - Remain with one SB-12 and buy one JL Fathom 113.
2 - Change both SB-12 nsd for two SB-13 Ultra.
I do not have space for ported sub and do not want other brands. So if this were your only choices which one would you choose?

If you're pretty confident you tried all possible locations for your SB12, and you EQed them, then go ahead and upgrade, especially if the limiter LEDs are on continuously during a second or more when listening to your typical content. When that happens, you're lacking headroom and the sub's internal EQing disappear, giving you plenty of mid-bass but not enough lower bass. If you don't hit the dual SB12 limits, then maybe you should fiddle with location some more. As said above, it's amazing what sometimes even only an inch can do at the listening location, especially if one sub is in a corner and/or the listening position is in the middle of the room. Also make sure you don't have destructive interference between the two sub's output: unless you have an AVR with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ, you could try changing one of the sub's phase setting to see if the situation gets better.

If you do upgrade, I'd go with two identical subs. I don't know much about the Fathom but it's 1) terribly expensive and 2) the SB12 wouldn't be able to keep up with it. If you want duals and don't want to spend huh what, $8k ? on dual Fathoms, then the SB13-Ultra would certainly rock. Note that cylinder subs do not take more footprint than the SB13; however they certainly imply an understanding partner biggrin.gif

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Old 12-04-2012, 01:43 PM
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What's everyone think about a single SB13-Ultra vs. dual SB12NSDs?
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:53 PM
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A few pages back Ed Mullen (from SVS) seemed to feel strongly that two subs provides more advantage than a single one at twice the price, in general. However there is a rather large step between the SB12 and the SB13, and more than twice the price (and power). If you contact SVS they will be able to tell you. Also considering their upgrade policy, if your dual SB12s are less than a year old, you are entitled to it. It would be interesting to see if SVS considers moving from dual SB12 to a single SB13 as an upgrade. However I remember that the consensus (Ed chimed in also on that one if I'm right) is that dual SB12s provides about the same output as a single SB13 at 20 Hz. So if that's true, it would be a lateral move output-wise, and you'll lose some benefits of running duals. You may have a bit more low-end extension though.

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Old 12-04-2012, 04:25 PM
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Articles on the benefits of multiple subs: http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html

 


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Old 12-04-2012, 04:29 PM
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Anyone know what fuse goes in a PC13 ultra bash amp?
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Congrats smile.gif Tell us how it blends with your Ultra.
Maybe; at this point you raise an issue I had for a year. Namely, are what we are hearing optimal? I don't have friends with a better sub / HT setup than mine, so I'm not sure if what I do in terms of setup is the right thing or not. Do I obtain subpar results or is it great? Barring someone more knowledgeable / with more experience than you hearing your setup, the next best thing is to play it by ears literally. If it is any consolation, I spent a week tweaking levels, location, and EQ to get the same sound with my PC12-Plus that I had with my SB12. It's very surprising how different a sub can sound depending on all those parameters.
But what you describe indeed sounds like a peak in response that reverberates more than the rest. You tend to lower the volume because it is annoying but then you lose the rest. That's why EQing those peaks is vital. Maybe Audyssey did miss it, or you changed your sub position since you last calibrated?
If you're pretty confident you tried all possible locations for your SB12, and you EQed them, then go ahead and upgrade, especially if the limiter LEDs are on continuously during a second or more when listening to your typical content. When that happens, you're lacking headroom and the sub's internal EQing disappear, giving you plenty of mid-bass but not enough lower bass. If you don't hit the dual SB12 limits, then maybe you should fiddle with location some more. As said above, it's amazing what sometimes even only an inch can do at the listening location, especially if one sub is in a corner and/or the listening position is in the middle of the room. Also make sure you don't have destructive interference between the two sub's output: unless you have an AVR with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ, you could try changing one of the sub's phase setting to see if the situation gets better.
If you do upgrade, I'd go with two identical subs. I don't know much about the Fathom but it's 1) terribly expensive and 2) the SB12 wouldn't be able to keep up with it. If you want duals and don't want to spend huh what, $8k ? on dual Fathoms, then the SB13-Ultra would certainly rock. Note that cylinder subs do not take more footprint than the SB13; however they certainly imply an understanding partner biggrin.gif

No i didn't change the location of the subwoofer at all, i moved the little end table thats sitting next to the subwoofer a little bit but that is all..
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:48 PM
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Hello.

Well, after a few hours and EQ, I'm testing the plus in my room 10 m2, this thing is a real beast. Do not miss them ultra output, both are similar.

I notice that the sound on the PB12 is cleaner than in the PC13, it may be possible that the driver is not as close to the ground or as boxed. Literally it is a wonder that can throw punches in the chest or the whole house to shake. Strange that I step on the heels of the PB/PC13.

Compare ALSO plus a literlamente PB13 and both were similar, it was impossible to blind which was ringing.
A blast.

Now you have some photos.










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Old 12-04-2012, 04:50 PM
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That makes my PB12 NSD look small.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

Hello.
Well, after a few hours and EQ, I'm testing the plus in my room 10 m2, this thing is a real beast. Do not miss them ultra output, both are similar.
I notice that the sound on the PB12 is cleaner than in the PC13, it may be possible that the driver is not as close to the ground or as boxed. Literally it is a wonder that can throw punches in the chest or the whole house to shake. Strange that I step on the heels of the PB/PC13.
Compare ALSO plus a literlamente PB13 and both were similar, it was impossible to blind which was ringing.
A blast.
Now you have some photos.

Really cool man!

Congrats on the new addition to your SVS collection. How many subs do you have now?
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post

That makes my PB12 NSD look small.

The PB12-NSD is a beast too. It was my first SVS in early 2010, was where I really fell in love with SVS. The first time I heard it was not giving credit to what I was hearing and feeling like my room shook.

Now for my room have spent all existing SVS models, excepting the new SB13-Ultra.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Really cool man!
Congrats on the new addition to your SVS collection. How many subs do you have now?

Hi

Well, in the end only I have the PB12-Plus DSP loaded in the corner, it will succeed to +8 dB gain. My three seats are complete with no valley. The answer is very very good, so I have the PC13 for sale and SB12-NSD also.
I'm staying with the PB12-Plus, I love and gives everything I need in my room 10 m2.

biggrin.gif

rolleyes.gif
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:52 PM
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

Hi
Well, in the end only I have the PB12-Plus DSP loaded in the corner, it will succeed to +8 dB gain. My three seats are complete with no valley. The answer is very very good, so I have the PC13 for sale and SB12-NSD also.
I'm staying with the PB12-Plus, I love and gives everything I need in my room 10 m2.
biggrin.gif
rolleyes.gif

That is pretty cool. Congrats on your PB12-Plus DSP and good luck with your sale. Hopefully, you will be able to sell these babies for a good price.

So, what are you going to buy with that extra cash? A PB13-Ultra perhaps?

biggrin.gif
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

That is pretty cool. Congrats on your PB12-Plus DSP and good luck with your sale. Hopefully, you will be able to sell these babies for a good price.
So, what are you going to buy with that extra cash? A PB13-Ultra perhaps?
biggrin.gif

Thank you very much!

I have thought about selling the PC13-Ultra DSP at 1,300 € (Euros) and € 580 SB12 approximate.

The money I make, not spending, I'm saving, because here in Spain we are in recession because of the crisis and things are looking very ugly. Above is another one of the 6 million unemployed in Spain, and I'm afraid I'll have to look for work outside my country.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:51 PM
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PC12-Plus, how does this sub handle 115Hz?? I ask becuase im planning on getting 2 of these to go with my HT setup which consists of Paradigm Cinema 400's for my front 3 channels and Cinema 200's for the rear two channels and i need to be able to crossover around that area of 115Hz. Thanks for all the help.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dizzyscure1 View Post

PC12-Plus, how does this sub handle 115Hz?? I ask becuase im planning on getting 2 of these to go with my HT setup which consists of Paradigm Cinema 400's for my front 3 channels and Cinema 200's for the rear two channels and i need to be able to crossover around that area of 115Hz. Thanks for all the help.
Should be fine. SVS has the PC12+ rated within a 6db window (+/-3db) from 20-150 hz. You shouldn't run across any ill effects from crossing over at 115hx, other than possibly increased localization, but that would be a factor with any sub at that frequency.

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Old 12-04-2012, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

Thank you very much!
I have thought about selling the PC13-Ultra DSP at 1,300 € (Euros) and € 580 SB12 approximate.
The money I make, not spending, I'm saving, because here in Spain we are in recession because of the crisis and things are looking very ugly. Above is another one of the 6 million unemployed in Spain, and I'm afraid I'll have to look for work outside my country.

I hear you. Things are really hard everywhere. Bu, I do hope you will be able to find a good job really soon.

Keep a positive attitude, and just go ahead and enjoy your new subwoofer!
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:17 PM
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I hear you. Things are really hard everywhere. Bu, I do hope you will be able to find a good job really soon.
Keep a positive attitude, and just go ahead and enjoy your new subwoofer!

Thank you very much!

The right attitude is the last thing one can lose, keep fighting.
I hope 2013 has a good job.

I have really wanted to meet U.S., when you can, I know I'm going to Los Angeles and Las Vegas. For the time to keep looking for what is important and keep fighting to improve the quality of life.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyscure1 View Post

PC12-Plus, how does this sub handle 115Hz?? I ask becuase im planning on getting 2 of these to go with my HT setup which consists of Paradigm Cinema 400's for my front 3 channels and Cinema 200's for the rear two channels and i need to be able to crossover around that area of 115Hz. Thanks for all the help.

Low Pass Filter (LPF) Adjustment
The LPF Function sets the frequency and slope for the low frequencies that will be played by the subwoofer.
From the IFC WELCOME screen, single-click the IFC knob and rotate the IFC knob two clicks clockwise until
the display reads “MENU/LOW PASS”. Single-click the IFC knob to get to the LPF Function menu. If the LPF is
disabled, a message to that effect will be displayed.
If the LPF is disabled, turn the IFC knob clockwise which will display the Low Pass Frequency menu. To set the
LPF frequency to a value other than what is currently displayed, single-click the IFC knob and then rotate the
knob clockwise or counter-clockwise to set the desired frequency. Frequency choices include 31, 40, 50, 63,
80, 100, and 125Hz.
Single-click the IFC knob to return to the Low Pass Function menu. Turn the IFC knob to move to the Low Pass
Slope submenu and single-click to change the slope value. The Low Pass Slope defines the slope of the attenuationcurve above the selected frequency. Two choices are available; 12 dB per octave and 24 dB per octave.
To disable the LPF, rotate the IFC knob until the message “LOW PASS DISABLE?” is displayed. Single-click the
IFC knob to disable the LPF, and single-click again to get to the top-level menu. If the LPF disable feature is
selected accidentally, double-click the IFC knob to return to the top-level menu.

http://www.svsound.com/images/svs/doclibrary/pc12-plus_manual.pdf
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

Should be fine. SVS has the PC12+ rated within a 6db window (+/-3db) from 20-150 hz. You shuldn't run across any ill effects from crossing over at 115hx, other than possibly increased localization, but that would be a factor with any sub at that frequency.

Ive got a place right below each of the 400's L & R channels for the subs so if and when localization happens it should blend into the channels perfectly... atleast thats what im planning on wink.gif thanks for the response.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:16 PM
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hey guys, so i was playing with my system for about an hour and a half now with my new pb12 nsd, i tried playing with dynamic EQ and reference level offset, i set reference level offset to 15db for music, the bass is less boomy but im feeling there is still some boominess..

its really confusing me, i mean i just sold me eD A2-300 and that sub was by no means boomy, so i dont get how my new svs could be boomy.. i also lowered the volume of the subwoofer by 3db on the receiver thinking that perhaps the volume is too high there,

i mean the bass sound great with a good punch but i feel like there is a boomy echo in certain content like some music that i played on the system.

the sub is in the exact same corner that the ed a2-300 was.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

hey guys, so i was playing with my system for about an hour and a half now with my new pb12 nsd, i tried playing with dynamic EQ and reference level offset, i set reference level offset to 15db for music, the bass is less boomy but im feeling there is still some boominess..
its really confusing me, i mean i just sold me eD A2-300 and that sub was by no means boomy, so i dont get how my new svs could be boomy.. i also lowered the volume of the subwoofer by 3db on the receiver thinking that perhaps the volume is too high there,
i mean the bass sound great with a good punch but i feel like there is a boomy echo in certain content like some music that i played on the system.
the sub is in the exact same corner that the ed a2-300 was.

Probably is that particular location the one that is creating the issue. Have you tried to move it a different location within your room? Sub crawling?
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
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Probably is that particular location the one that is creating the issue. Have you tried to move it a different location within your room? Sub crawling?

Should i move it like to a mid wall position next to my speakers? but that would require me to re run the hole auddysey calibration right? or should i just move the pb12 to the new mid-wall position and see if its still boomy?
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

Should i move it like to a mid wall position next to my speakers? but that would require me to re run the hole auddysey calibration right? or should i just move the pb12 to the new mid-wall position and see if its still boomy?

To keep things simple, I would move the sub as you described and see if that eliminate or at least mitigate the issue. If yes, then I'll re-run calibration.

Try different locations and if you already have a track that you can recognize that boomy sound, then keep it playing while moving the sub around. Or you can place the sub in your listening position and while playing that record, and you will be the one moving around the room until you fine the sweet spot (this is what I was referring as sub crawling).

Bottom line, as soon you thing you have your sub in the right location, then "yes" you must re-run calibration.

Please report back!
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:00 PM
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i really dont want to do sub "Crawling", sounds like a hassle, i mean i could move it to the mid wall position but i just dont understand why its needed.. i mean, the eD sub was not boomy and it was in the exact same position, what could be causing the boom?

i have the SVS pb12 connected to a Monster hts850 surge protector strip, that couldn't be the cause of anything right?(the pb12 is the only thing connected to that power strip)
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

i really dont want to do sub "Crawling", sounds like a hassle, i mean i could move it to the mid wall position but i just dont understand why its needed.. i mean, the eD sub was not boomy, what could be causing the boom?

i have the SVS pb12 connected to a Monster hts850 surge protector strip, that couldn't be the cause of anything right?(the pb12 is the only thing connected to that power strip)

Audyssey has been noted to add excessive bass in some cases.. Try it without Audyssey. Corner location may be accentuating certain frequencies. Location location location. If you don't want to do the sub crawl then don't but you may not get the information you would get from it. Alternatively try a measurement mic and REW or buy an Omnimic setup or similar....
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