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post #17011 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by accordex View Post
Hi guys, so my pb-2000 is waiting for me at home. It is replacing a bic F-12. Would it be a bad idea to run the svs and bic in a dual setup? I want dual subs, however it's hard to spend that kind of cash.
Also what about a pb-1000 with the 2000?
The bic is no slouch and fills my room nicely with pretty good bass, so im hoping the svs will be miles beyond that.
Also do i need to break the svs in at lower volumes at first? I don't want to push it too hard and break it.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Would really like to know your thoughts between the two when you get a chance to compare them. I went with a PB-2000, but was close to pulling the trigger on something similar to the BIC before.
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post #17012 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post

but the pc 12 plus plays cleaner at 16 hz.. then the pc or pb 13 u


thanks
No, it doesn't. Whichever sub has the highest output is going to play the cleanest at that frequency. If you take the PB13 Ultra's max burst at 16 Hz of 105.1 dB with distortion of 14.33%, distortion would be close to zero at 104 dB, which is going to be much higher output than the PC12 plus can play at any distortion level.

If you look at any subs max burst output, and back it down even 1 dB, you are going to have very clean, distortion free bass.
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post #17013 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post
wow amazing got some nice numbers from big Ed at svs.. spread is a bit bigger than the 4.5db more like 6-5.. 12 to 25hz.. then 4-3 upto 50


but the pc 12 plus plays cleaner at 16 hz.. then the pc or pb 13 u


thanks
Really, can you pm me some details thanks.

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post #17014 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 07:34 PM
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Ok, so the second Pb12-nsd got 12 hours on it and I just threw on the pod scene from War of the Worlds.

Holy SH*T

When the pod emerges it feels like an earthquake. My huge sectional was shaking back and forth with me in it. And it is loud. I'm guessing I was in a null with just the one, because the laser shooting part never really did much for me. Now I can feel the impact hard.

My wife was in the other room reading to my sign, I warned her what was about to happen. She yelled at me to turn it off, said things in his room were rattling and it was loud. Wanted to try out a few more of my favorites but it's bedtime for the kiddo. I almost feel like taking a day off from work just so I can have 9 hours of interrupted fun. I know how much people here rave about adding a second sub, you don't fully understand til you actually get one.

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post #17015 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 07:34 PM
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Ok, so the second Pb12-nsd got 12 hours on it and I just threw on the pod scene from War of the Worlds.

Holy SH*T

When the pod emerges it feels like an earthquake. My huge sectional was shaking back and forth with me in it. And it is loud. I'm guessing I was in a null with just the one, because the laser shooting part never really did much for me. Now I can feel the impact hard.

My wife was in the other room reading to my son, I warned her what was about to happen. She yelled at me to turn it off, said things in his room were rattling and it was loud. Wanted to try out a few more of my favorites but it's bedtime for the kiddo. I almost feel like taking a day off from work just so I can have 9 hours of interrupted fun. I know how much people here rave about adding a second sub, you don't fully understand til you actually get one.
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post #17016 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 07:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
No, it doesn't. Whichever sub has the highest output is going to play the cleanest at that frequency. If you take the PB13 Ultra's max burst at 16 Hz of 105.1 dB with distortion of 14.33%, distortion would be close to zero at 104 dB, which is going to be much higher output than the PC12 plus can play at any distortion level.

If you look at any subs max burst output, and back it down even 1 dB, you are going to have very clean, distortion free bass.

so I should be looking at ultra then.. and not use all the power... ?


the cleanest sub I saw so far was the paradigm sub 2.. some readings at 1%


cheers
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post #17017 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 07:59 PM
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I do not think you understood Ed's info. I have seen graphs of the PC13 and PB, the PB plays cleaner and has slightly more output in the 16-20hz. Lectre83 posted some graphs a while back showing the difference.
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post #17018 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 08:00 PM
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The CEA2010 max burst output is designed to give you an idea of a subwoofers maximum output that will sound clean. So whether the distortion shows 4% or 14%...if it passes, it will sound clean. A dB in either direction will usually drastically affect distortion. So it is just a way to compare max clean output capabilities...you won't be able to tell the difference in sound until distortion surpasses the test limits.

As far as which sub to buy, purchase the one that meets your output needs, gives you the extension you want, is the size you want, the price you want, the looks you want, from the company you like, with the warranty you want. For some, cost is no object and they want the prettiest sub in the smallest package even if its performance is less than a sub that is half the price but is too large or does not have as nice of a finish. Maximum clean output capability is simply one of the performance metrics on which to base your purchase decision. For me, maximum clean output down to 16 Hz within my size and budget constraints were my deciding factors, along with warranty and perceived company credibility/stability.

You probably would not want to buy a sub with 1% distortion at 20 Hz if its max output was 90 dB. The sub with 10% distortion and 110 dB at 20 Hz, will probably have 1% distortion while producing SPL's of 108 dB...or you could get 15 or 20 of the other sub to match the output.

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post #17019 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I do not think you understood Ed's info. I have seen graphs of the PC13 and PB, the PB plays cleaner and has slightly more output in the 16-20hz. Lectre83 posted some graphs a while back showing the difference.
Yes it is correct for Ultra and different is very low but it is there but for Plus PC or a PB do same talking about output.

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post #17020 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
Yes it is correct for Ultra and different is very low but it is there but for Plus PC or a PB do same talking about output.
Something about a Ultra, Plus PC, and a PB..beyond that....absolutely no clue what you are trying to say.
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post #17021 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 09:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The CEA2010 max burst output is designed to give you an idea of a subwoofers maximum output that will sound clean. So whether the distortion shows 4% or 14%...if it passes, it will sound clean. A dB in either direction will usually drastically affect distortion. So it is just a way to compare max clean output capabilities...you won't be able to tell the difference in sound until distortion surpasses the test limits.

As far as which sub to buy, purchase the one that meets your output needs, gives you the extension you want, is the size you want, the price you want, the looks you want, from the company you like, with the warranty you want. For some, cost is no object and they want the prettiest sub in the smallest package even if its performance is less than a sub that is half the price but is too large or does not have as nice of a finish. Maximum clean output capability is simply one of the performance metrics on which to base your purchase decision. For me, maximum clean output down to 16 Hz within my size and budget constraints were my deciding factors, along with warranty and perceived company credibility/stability.

You probably would not want to buy a sub with 1% distortion at 20 Hz if its max output was 90 dB. The sub with 10% distortion and 110 dB at 20 Hz, will probably have 1% distortion while producing SPL's of 108 dB...or you could get 15 or 20 of the other sub to match the output.
a lot of psa subs have distortion # up at 25% 33% way higher than svs...
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post #17022 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Something about a Ultra, Plus PC, and a PB..beyond that....absolutely no clue what you are trying to say.

SVS Ultra subs PB have a little better performance then PC Ultra model not much but little but Pluses models are same PB and PC models.

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post #17023 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 09:26 PM
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Did you guys even try SVS speakers? How they are lets say compare to Klipsch? i just never read any plus or minus about SVS speakers.

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post #17024 of 26032 Old 06-18-2014, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post
a lot of psa subs have distortion # up at 25% 33% way higher than svs...
Correct. Different design approaches. SVS chooses to restrict the output of their subs at lower distortion thresholds than what is allowed by CEA2010 standards. So the output is often restricted before allowable distortion levels are reached. PSA tends to be less restrictive on their subs in that regard. Both approaches have their merits.
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post #17025 of 26032 Old 06-19-2014, 12:54 PM
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I will pass along some information I have from a conversation with SVS. I was wanting to get a little more power out of my sub. Currently the sub gain is at -16. Audyssey (I've got a Denon 2112) sets my sub gain at -10. I am currently running the sub 5db hot, so -5 on the AVR. I was wanting a tiny bit more power, and spoke with SVS on whether or not I should adjust the sub on the AVR and run even hotter then I already am, or if I should adjust the sub itself. Their advice at this point was a bump on the sub gain. I'm going to try it, but still worries me because I know Audyssey is doing some level of sub equalization. All things considered though, I think Audyssey is far too conservative with bass.

Not sure if I'm going to try anything yet, but I figured I would pass it along in case anybody else out there has the same issue.

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post #17026 of 26032 Old 06-19-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
I will pass along some information I have from a conversation with SVS. I was wanting to get a little more power out of my sub. Currently the sub gain is at -16. Audyssey (I've got a Denon 2112) sets my sub gain at -10. I am currently running the sub 5db hot, so -5 on the AVR. I was wanting a tiny bit more power, and spoke with SVS on whether or not I should adjust the sub on the AVR and run even hotter then I already am, or if I should adjust the sub itself. Their advice at this point was a bump on the sub gain. I'm going to try it, but still worries me because I know Audyssey is doing some level of sub equalization. All things considered though, I think Audyssey is far too conservative with bass.

Not sure if I'm going to try anything yet, but I figured I would pass it along in case anybody else out there has the same issue.
It's common knowledge that Audyssey isn't the end-all-be-all of setting a system up. It usually sets front main speakers to large and very conservative on the sub. I don't have it and I don't like it.
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post #17027 of 26032 Old 06-19-2014, 01:27 PM
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I'll only answer once on the double post.
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post #17028 of 26032 Old 06-19-2014, 02:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
I will pass along some information I have from a conversation with SVS. I was wanting to get a little more power out of my sub. Currently the sub gain is at -16. Audyssey (I've got a Denon 2112) sets my sub gain at -10. I am currently running the sub 5db hot, so -5 on the AVR. I was wanting a tiny bit more power, and spoke with SVS on whether or not I should adjust the sub on the AVR and run even hotter then I already am, or if I should adjust the sub itself. Their advice at this point was a bump on the sub gain. I'm going to try it, but still worries me because I know Audyssey is doing some level of sub equalization. All things considered though, I think Audyssey is far too conservative with bass.

Not sure if I'm going to try anything yet, but I figured I would pass it along in case anybody else out there has the same issue.

hey an upgrade to the x4000 denon would be a big improvement in the audyssey room correction..


cheers
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post #17029 of 26032 Old 06-19-2014, 02:33 PM
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^Upgrading solves everything

In all honesty that is something I plan to eventually do (though likely a X4000 replacement). Right now however I'm working my way through a two year long project to replace all my speakers and want to get that done first.

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post #17030 of 26032 Old 06-19-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
Did you guys even try SVS speakers? How they are lets say compare to Klipsch? i just never read any plus or minus about SVS speakers.
There are a few reviews of the SVS speakers, all positive for what it's worth.

They will have a very different sound than Klipsch, less bright, warmer with a likely better detailed midrange.

SVS has the same trial with their speakers as they do with their subs, so if you're really interested then give them a call.

If you're main use is HT (movies, games, TV) then I think klipsch is a good choice. I'm happy with mine.

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post #17031 of 26032 Old 06-19-2014, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Quote:Originally Posted

If you read enough of this thread you will read lots of things. Theres no absolutely correct way to adjust sub volume/avr sub volume. I have seen some of the most respected and knowledgeable people at AVS have differing opinions on the subject. Some say you should never touch the sub volume at the sub after running the room correction software and some say its fine to do so. One thing nearly everyone agrees on however is that you shouldnt run the sub volume on the + side in the AVR.



AllenA07: the above quote by Bond 007 is a reply to a similar post a few weeks ago, and I think it is a great summation of the various perspectives and opinions out there regarding sub/AVR volume settings.


[QUOTE=AllenA07;25100594]I will pass along some information I have from a conversation with SVS. I was wanting to get a little more power out of my sub. Currently the sub gain is at -16. Audyssey (I've got a Denon 2112) sets my sub gain at -10. I am currently running the sub 5db hot, so -5 on the AVR. I was wanting a tiny bit more power, and spoke with SVS on whether or not I should adjust the sub on the AVR and run even hotter then I already am, or if I should adjust the sub itself. Their advice at this point was a bump on the sub gain. I'm going to try it, but still worries me because I know Audyssey is doing some level of sub equalization. All things considered though, I think Audyssey is far too conservative with bass.


My approach to sub/AVR settings is as follows (and was given a thumbs up by three different SVS reps ) : initial sub volume setting of -16 ... resulting in an Audyssey AVR level of -6.0 ... I then raised the sub volume to -6 for a maximum, and then when I want to lower the bass for certain content, I adjust the AVR sub level downwards.

There are so many factors at work here in our attempt to achieve an ideal sound from our systems ... we are trying our best, and we should realize that while not perfect, the end results are relatively pretty darn good compared to what so much of the rest of the world is able to experience ... good luck and enjoy !

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post #17032 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 07:48 AM
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Has anyone gotten the itch with all the subs in the outlet store to upgrade or increase their subs? I am thinking about adding a few more PC12 plus's.


I would like to DIY but I just don't have the time, so my thought is to get another set of 12+'s and when I have the time sell my subs and build my own. I like this idea especially since the outlet store has at least when I checked 3 Plus's for a pretty good price with the warranty yet.

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post #17033 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 07:53 AM
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Has anyone gotten the itch with all the subs in the outlet store to upgrade or increase their subs?
Probably almost everyone.
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post #17034 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 09:07 AM
 
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I got an itch omg its a burning desire for some bad ass subs...
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post #17035 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 09:22 AM
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I also got an itch. But, my doctor gave me a cream to put on it.
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post #17036 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 09:22 AM
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Picking up my Klipsch RF7II's next Sunday. I think I'll be out of room for any more subs unless I start stacking them. My room is only 2000 cu ft. Not sure I would benefit with another Ultra.

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post #17037 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post
Has anyone gotten the itch with all the subs in the outlet store to upgrade or increase their subs? I am thinking about adding a few more PC12 plus's.


I would like to DIY but I just don't have the time, so my thought is to get another set of 12+'s and when I have the time sell my subs and build my own. I like this idea especially since the outlet store has at least when I checked 3 Plus's for a pretty good price with the warranty yet.
I've been eyeing those plusses as well. I have 2 PB-2000s and 2 PB12-NSDs for my theater that's in the semi final stages but I'm wondering if I should get the plusses. I've been talking with Darren at SVS about my room and he said the nsd's will play nicely with the 2000s but I don't like seeing the limiter light come on with the nsd's.

Anyone with a theater in a basement on a slab have a pair of plusses? I built a platform for increased tactile feel but I'm wondering if one or both subs need to physically be ON the platform for that tactile sensation. I'm wired for 4 subs, 2 up front and 2 in the rear.
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post #17038 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 11:44 AM
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I got an itch, but it's for a new bicycle.

Pretty happy with my current setup. It's hard to believe but putting the def tech into the mix really made a big difference.

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post #17039 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 03:14 PM
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Picking up my Klipsch RF7II's next Sunday. I think I'll be out of room for any more subs unless I start stacking them. My room is only 2000 cu ft. Not sure I would benefit with another Ultra.

My room is about 1600 cu. ft. so I would say you need a few more. I am getting the JTR 228's and am hoping they do not over run my current subs.


Hockey, The subs do not need to be on the raise platform for you to feel the tactile effects.

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Last edited by BCRSS; 06-21-2014 at 03:16 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #17040 of 26032 Old 06-21-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post
My room is about 1600 cu. ft. so I would say you need a few more. I am getting the JTR 228's and am hoping they do not over run my current subs.


Hockey, The subs do not need to be on the raise platform for you to feel the tactile effects.
Really? I thought the slab would eat up most if not all of the bass if I only had two (or 4) up front. Hmm if what you're saying is true then I would probably rather have all 4 up front or grab those two plusses. Guess I'll have to experiment but thanks for the info.
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