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post #18571 of 18586 Old Today, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DaJoJo View Post


it is the best way, but i find it not the correct way. the big speakers are capable of outputting enough lows to meet the 75dB norm. putting all bass from all speakers on the subchannel which has its own sub track is increase of signal to the sub and is increasing the chance of distortion. i did not say that it is per definition creating distortion.
75db "norm" has nothing to do with whether your speakers put out enough lows.

The sub does NOT has its own sub track other than the LFE .1 channel in Dolby digital, DTS, DTS Master HD and Dolby True HD. There is no separate sub channel in music unless it's in one of the forms I mentioned.

If you don't set your speakers to small or to large + the sub then the sub will do nothing other than the .1 channel on the audio formats I listed.

I run "double bass" which only means that my speakers get the full range signal (minus the .1 LFE channel) and the sub gets the full range signal PLUS the .1 LFE channel.

Double bass or whatever your AVR calls it just means the mains are getting a full range signal along with the sub so that it "doubles" the bass as in, both are producing the full range audio signal. With your speakers set to small only the sub produces the bass channel below the crossover you set.

There is no doubling of any low frequencies to the sub.

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post #18572 of 18586 Old Today, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Note that if bass from other speakers is redirected to the sub, then the sub, to be able of reference level performances, should be able to play even louder. With 7 channels, if all channels gets saturated bass signals at the same time, the sub may have to play up to 126-127 dB SPL. Few setups can reach those levels down to ULF frequencies.
This is wrong.

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post #18573 of 18586 Old Today, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DaJoJo View Post
LFE is also 105dB for home uses. so what u say is that putting all channels bass on the sub is creating distortion, as most subs do not reach 126dB. not even my big-ass pb13. so it would be nice to know to what low freq the channels actually go in movies.
The LFE track has 105 dB dynamic range but is played back with a 10 dB boost, hence the 115 dB SPL figure, even for home use. 115 dB SPL at the listening position is what is accepted as "reference capable" but this of course is frequency-dependent.

As for how low movies go... All the way down There is ample stuff below 20 Hz and some movies contain significant signal down to single-digits. On some movies not only having a sub capable enough is a problem in itself, but having a signal chain that doesn't filter out the low end becomes a problem.

That being said, ULF (below 20 Hz) is tricky in that to perceive it, it has to be played louder as the frequency decreases. You'd be hard pressed to tell if a 10 Hz sine wave is played below 100 dB SPL. Hence the reason for the setups found in the DIY and ULF threads

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post #18574 of 18586 Old Today, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DaJoJo View Post
it's DaJoJo. reading and understand what someone says is 2 different worlds.. i said 75dB is reference , not max. that would be 75dB +30dB overhead = 105dB or studionorm 85dB+30dB=115dB . and it is still not on the audio-recordings but on the output. this is movie related . audiorecordings go to the bbc norm mostly which is 1.2v nominal at 0dB.

When you say that you don't need to worry about using a small setting on large speakers because most speakers can reproduce 75dB reference you are clearly mistaken. Correcting it after the fact doesn't help. I'm not trying to rip you apart on everything but when you come on a forum like this and spout information again and again as fact all it does is confuse others who are new.

You said a couple posts ago that I was ridiculous for doubting Audyssey. When I pointed out Audyssey was correct, you then say you don't believe that's the correct way to do it. Talk about confusing!

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it is the best way, but i find it not the correct way. the big speakers are capable of outputting enough lows to meet the 75dB norm.

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post #18575 of 18586 Old Today, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
This is wrong.
Hmm perhaps you can tell me where I did err?

Of course this is the theoretical maximum (all channels playing full-range) and it won't typically happen. But it's still possible using a 7.1 track with redirected bass.

EDIT: I was indeed slightly wrong -- it's 125 dB not 126-127 dB. (At 2m ground plane... add 6 dB for every doubling of the distance to your MLP). See this very informative post in the ULF thread.


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post #18576 of 18586 Old Today, 09:48 AM
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post #18577 of 18586 Old Today, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DaJoJo View Post
yeah it was the first CD i ever found worthy to buy lol
ah well it sound so much better on normal levels then it is on the level i played it. my level is like over the top too loud and causing nausea but yes a thunderstorm it was.. the darn thing ruins my interior on a earthquake level. so i now got rid of the yamaha subs and have the pb13 ultra as single sub, suffice to say it's more then enough lows for normal people and even the bassaddict i am.
Funny about the nausea... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weapon

"Extremely high-power sound waves can disrupt or destroy the eardrums of a target and cause severe pain or disorientation. This is usually sufficient to incapacitate a person. Less powerful sound waves can cause humans to experience nausea or discomfort. The use of these frequencies to incapacitate persons has occurred both in counter-terrorist and crowd control settings.

The possibility of a device that produces frequency that causes vibration of the eyeballs — and therefore distortion of vision — was apparently confirmed by the work of engineer Vic Tandy[4][5] while attempting to demystify a “haunting” in his laboratory in Coventry. This “spook” was characterised by a feeling of unease and vague glimpses of a grey apparition. Some detective work implicated a newly installed extractor fan that, Tandy found, was generating infrasound of 18.9 Hz, 0.3 Hz, and 9 Hz."
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post #18578 of 18586 Old Today, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
It is. Read your Owners manual.
I have read it and it says it gives extra bass With OR WITHOUT SUB so...
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post #18579 of 18586 Old Today, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post
When you say that you don't need to worry about using a small setting on large speakers because most speakers can reproduce 75dB reference you are clearly mistaken. Correcting it after the fact doesn't help. I'm not trying to rip you apart on everything but when you come on a forum like this and spout information again and again as fact all it does is confuse others who are new.
You said a couple posts ago that I was ridiculous for doubting Audyssey. When I pointed out Audyssey was correct, you then say you don't believe that's the correct way to do it. Talk about confusing!
small setting on large speaker ? you mean large on small speaker ? i'm not feeling ripped apart i like to learn and on this forum is a good place to do that. i like ur input on the discussion, so don't worry about that. i don't think it confuse others as what we are trying to accomplish is how things actually work and the end result of that would benefit everyone. it is ridiculous doubting audyssey indeed, the question is more which does set it to large ? the audyssey or the avr ? audyssey says to put all on small, but tells us also that it is for common use with movies and music. i wonder now why they have the .1 subchannel in the first place if this isn't a separate track. my english is not so good so maybe some things i say are confusing. i mean not to confuse, but to get it right. if im wrong i like to know too and why i am and i don't feel offended by that.
edit : also btw most speakers do not even reach 105dB without distorting or maxing out. so i wonder what level YPAO and Audyssey use in avr's

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post #18580 of 18586 Old Today, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
Funny about the nausea... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weapon
"Extremely high-power sound waves can disrupt or destroy the eardrums of a target and cause severe pain or disorientation. This is usually sufficient to incapacitate a person. Less powerful sound waves can cause humans to experience nausea or discomfort. The use of these frequencies to incapacitate persons has occurred both in counter-terrorist and crowd control settings.
The possibility of a device that produces frequency that causes vibration of the eyeballs — and therefore distortion of vision — was apparently confirmed by the work of engineer Vic Tandy[4][5] while attempting to demystify a “haunting” in his laboratory in Coventry. This “spook” was characterised by a feeling of unease and vague glimpses of a grey apparition. Some detective work implicated a newly installed extractor fan that, Tandy found, was generating infrasound of 18.9 Hz, 0.3 Hz, and 9 Hz."
yup pain and beeb in the ear indicates hearingdamage is done. eardrums are capable of restoring overtime when one is young though. as we get older this regenerating of cells doesn't work anymore as we lack growth-hormones and we sorta detiorate slowly. however there are studies that indicate that most minor hearingdamage is only temperaly. eardrums nerves also tend to adjust to sound and filter out the annoying parts. like when u live next to a train station over time you won't hear the trains anymore unless u focus on them.

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post #18581 of 18586 Old Today, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DaJoJo View Post
small setting on large speaker ? you mean large on small speaker ? i'm not feeling ripped apart i like to learn and on this forum is a good place to do that. i like ur input on the discussion, so don't worry about that. i don't think it confuse others as what we are trying to accomplish is how things actually work and the end result of that would benefit everyone. it is ridiculous doubting audyssey indeed, the question is more which does set it to large ? the audyssey or the avr ? audyssey says to put all on small, but tells us also that it is for common use with movies and music. i wonder now why they have the .1 subchannel in the first place if this isn't a separate track. my english is not so good so maybe some things i say are confusing. i mean not to confuse, but to get it right. if im wrong i like to know too and why i am and i don't feel offended by that.
The basic explanation is that the sub does a much better job at reproducing frequencies sub 60Hz or so.

If you want to think about an ideal crossover you need to have a speaker play flat lower than the crossover frequency for it to sum correctly as you had mentioned in some of your previous posts. This is why we set the crossover frequency ABOVE the -3dB point of the speaker. You don't want the low frequency acoustic rolloff of the speaker summing too much with the crossover as it may cause a dip. We have had some disagreement on this topic because, as with anything audio, things aren't ideal. It is possible that there be a resonance around that point and a dip in the idealized sum between the speaker and sub may result in a flat in room response.

The problem with a large setting is that it assumes that the speaker can handle 20Hz-20,000KHz. Which, for almost all speakers, isn't the case. Most speakers do decently down until the 40Hz point. If we use the small setting at 80Hz this means we have one octave of decay before the acoustic rolloff starts to occur which is pretty good!

As was pointed out, the AVR chooses small vs. large and audyssey doesn't like it but they have no say in the matter. It is ridiculous that Yamaha puts in their manual "Choose large if your speakers are 6 1/4" or larger. They have no knowledge of the frequency response, the in room response, or how well the subwoofer performs in the midbass region. To limit the choice to just the size of cone is silly.

Small is kinda the best of both worlds....you get the low frequency information sent to the sub where it typically is produced with less distortion and possibly with more dynamic range...and the speakers continue to get information where they play best as well. Keep in mind frequency response specifications leaves out what SPL that is done at often. Even when they do specify it I bet most of the time the sub can reproduce 20-40Hz louder than the full range speakers.

Large as you pointed out has no chance to send audio that the speaker may not produce well...and so the sub sits idle for all but 5.1(or higher) content...which is just a waste of money if you ask me.
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post #18582 of 18586 Old Today, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

As mentioned a few times earlier in the thread, extra/double bass, aka main + LFE, is *not* recommended. The goal here is to have a flat frequency response and you will have lots of trouble achieving that if bass is doubled in the overlap between your speaker's and your sub's capabilities, unless you manually EQ the sub channel to this effect. Better use a crossover at least slightly above the -3dB point of your speaker. Use a higher crossover if you want the sub to handle more mid-bass. However at around 80 Hz the subwoofer begins to be easier to pinpoint / localize. This may or may not be a problem.

Personally, even though I have nice tower fronts that play with authority down to 40 Hz, I still cross my dual cylinders to 100 Hz. Since they symmetrically flank my TV, localization is much less of an issue (they localize to the center stage anyway).
I never use extra bass functions. I don't even increase sub Level after YPAO if I use it. I generally try to make the curve as flat as possible. I normally set the AVR up manually using a tape measure and REW.


I cross my SVS STS-01 over at 60hz as that sounds best. They can really take a pounding too so I can play as loud as I like.
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post #18583 of 18586 Old Today, 11:26 AM
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I never use extra bass functions. I don't even increase sub Level after YPAO if I use it. I generally try to make the curve as flat as possible. I normally set the AVR up manually using a tape measure and REW.


I cross my SVS STS-01 over at 60hz as that sounds best. They can really take a pounding too so I can play as loud as I like.
Careful with the tape measure on the sub because Audyssey and other calibration software will use the distance to set phase!
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post #18584 of 18586 Old Today, 11:29 AM
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Thanks nashou66,

Not quite as ignorant as I was

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post #18585 of 18586 Old Today, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post
Careful with the tape measure on the sub because Audyssey and other calibration software will use the distance to set phase!
I put in the distance value that gives the best curve in REW on the sub. Usually not very near actual distance. Besides I have an SVS AS-EQ1 so end result is usualle pretty good. Not as good With the SVS PB12-NSD DSPs as With the PC12-NSDs so the PBs are gone and I'm waiting for the PC-2000.
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post #18586 of 18586 Old Today, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DaJoJo View Post
the question is more which does set it to large ? the audyssey or the avr ?
On all AVRs I know, it's the AVR firmware, not Audyssey, even though the functionality is integrated in the AVR's GUI.

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audyssey says to put all on small, but tells us also that it is for common use with movies and music.
The non-common use is typically with people which do critical listening with a given pair of stereo speakers only.

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i wonder now why they have the .1 subchannel in the first place if this isn't a separate track.
It is a separate track. The reason for its existence is debatable; one of them is to provide the extra 10 dB dynamic range. Since the track is played louder this allows for extra punch in the bass department.

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also btw most speakers do not even reach 105dB without distorting or maxing out. so i wonder what level YPAO and Audyssey use in avr's
The 105 dB SPL figure is the peak reference level. The test tones are generated at -30 dBFS, i.e. 75 dB SPL. You are right that not every setup is capable of reference playback (i.e. allowing for 105 dB peaks per channel). But having a good subwoofer not only helps with the bass, but also relieves your amp of having to play power-hungry bass on your mains, meaning you can reach reference level on many AVRs with reasonably sensitive speakers nowadays.

As for the sub, saying it's reference-level capable is not enough -- you generally have to say to which frequency it's capable to achieve that. Reference capable to 30 Hz is much easier to do than reference capable to 20 or 15 Hz.

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