Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 658 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19711 of 19728 Old Today, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
lol
Maybe, but it isn't like $1,700 is a small amount of money.

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post #19712 of 19728 Old Today, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinkRationally View Post
Your Yamaha 473 has YPAO, doesn't it? If so, YPAO will almost certainly set a distance to your sub that is not the actual physical distance. This is because it is time-aligning it with your mains and must take into account processing delays within the sub that make it appear further away. If you have YPAO, you should keep the distance it chooses, as this will keep the sub and speakers in phase.
As far as I can tell, the sub and speakers are in phase (I used REW and ran test tones at the crossover and checked the phase that way). The measured response is better when the sub is set closer than the actual physical distance. What kinds of effects would be heard if the sub wasn't time aligned? What would sound "wrong" if the distance in the AVR is too close or too far away? I noticed using REW that moving the sub distance to farther made the crossover frequency take a huge dip, but moving it closer (but not closer than 5 ft) actually made a smoother graph around the crossover for the MLP.

Am I doing something wrong?

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Currently watching on: BenQ W1070, 82" 1.0 Gain Screen, Darbee Darblet, PS3, with Yamaha RX-V473, SVS PB-1000, a Def Tech CS-8040HD, 2 SM65 for L/R, and 2 PM 800s for surrounds.
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post #19713 of 19728 Old Today, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by fredxr2d2 View Post
As far as I can tell, the sub and speakers are in phase (I used REW and ran test tones at the crossover and checked the phase that way). The measured response is better when the sub is set closer than the actual physical distance. What kinds of effects would be heard if the sub wasn't time aligned? What would sound "wrong" if the distance in the AVR is too close or too far away? I noticed using REW that moving the sub distance to farther made the crossover frequency take a huge dip, but moving it closer (but not closer than 5 ft) actually made a smoother graph around the crossover for the MLP.

Am I doing something wrong?
I'm not sure what you'd hear if the sub and the speakers were not phase aligned (and probably my ears couldn't pick it up anyway). By setting the sub distance closer you may have aligned them 180* out of phase, so that the peaks and dips are aligned, but not on the correct wave. I'm just throwing that out as a possibility--I'm not really sure what you're experiencing.

EDIT: I meant a full 360* out of phase. At least I think that's what I meant

An active sub should generally appear to be further away than it actually is. This is because the sub has it's own amplifier and there is a small processing delay involved there, whereas your speakers don't have this delay. The AVR should send the sub signal very slightly sooner than the speaker signals to account for this delay, so AVR room correction will set the sub distance further away than it's actual physical distance.
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post #19714 of 19728 Old Today, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinkRationally View Post
I'm not sure what you'd hear if the sub and the speakers were not phase aligned (and probably my ears couldn't pick it up anyway). By setting the sub distance closer you may have aligned them 180* out of phase, so that the peaks and dips are aligned, but not on the correct wave. I'm just throwing that out as a possibility--I'm not really sure what you're experiencing.

EDIT: I meant a full 360* out of phase. At least I think that's what I meant

An active sub should generally appear to be further away than it actually is. This is because the sub has it's own amplifier and there is a small processing delay involved there, whereas your speakers don't have this delay. The AVR should send the sub signal very slightly sooner than the speaker signals to account for this delay, so AVR room correction will set the sub distance further away than it's actual physical distance.
If your sub is out of phase from your main speakers, there would be an apparent loss of bass.

360 degrees out of phase is essentially 0 degrees.

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post #19715 of 19728 Old Today, 08:40 AM
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If your sub is out of phase from your main speakers, there would be an apparent loss of bass.

360 degrees out of phase is essentially 0 degrees.
Yes, essentially zero degrees, but aligned with the next wave, right? Not something you'd likely really notice. I was thinking that if he set the sub distance close enough, that's actually what might be happening.
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post #19716 of 19728 Old Today, 08:50 AM
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Interesting thoughts...I'll have to play around with it some more to see what happens.

Please: if you have more advice about this, I'd love to hear it!

Tim S.
Former 35mm and Digital Projectionist @ Regal Cinemas

Currently watching on: BenQ W1070, 82" 1.0 Gain Screen, Darbee Darblet, PS3, with Yamaha RX-V473, SVS PB-1000, a Def Tech CS-8040HD, 2 SM65 for L/R, and 2 PM 800s for surrounds.
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post #19717 of 19728 Old Today, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinkRationally View Post
Yes, essentially zero degrees, but aligned with the next wave, right? Not something you'd likely really notice. I was thinking that if he set the sub distance close enough, that's actually what might be happening.
My sub only goes to 180*. I'm thinking that once you get to 180*, anything past this is effectively going "back" to 0*.

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post #19718 of 19728 Old Today, 11:16 AM
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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread.

Ran Audyssey a couple times today for the new PC-2000. I'm currently running a 3.1 system and curious whether these settings look correct?


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post #19719 of 19728 Old Today, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
Ran Audyssey a couple times today for the new PC-2000. I'm currently running a 3.1 system and curious whether these settings look correct?


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The front crossover looks pretty high, but I guess it depends what those front speakers are
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post #19720 of 19728 Old Today, 11:24 AM
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Yes, suppose to be at 120Hz, so I changed the crossover setting to 120Hz.

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post #19721 of 19728 Old Today, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
Yes, suppose to be at 120Hz, can I change the crossover without deleting the other settings?


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How do you know they are "supposed" to be at 120Hz? Audyssey has determined that they cannot satisfactorily reproduce anything below 150Hz without causing a dip...so I wouldn't mess with it. You only typically want to raise audyssey's crossover settings...not lower them.

The only other thing is that the sub is a bit high if you want buffer room to allow for boosting it to your personal level. I like to leave 6dB of room meaning -6dB should be the maximum setting.
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post #19722 of 19728 Old Today, 12:32 PM
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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post
How do you know they are "supposed" to be at 120Hz? Audyssey has determined that they cannot satisfactorily reproduce anything below 150Hz without causing a dip...so I wouldn't mess with it. You only typically want to raise audyssey's crossover settings...not lower them.


Both SVS and Velodyne indicated that the crossover for those speakers are 120Hz.



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Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post
The only other thing is that the sub is a bit high if you want buffer room to allow for boosting it to your personal level. I like to leave 6dB of room meaning -6dB should be the maximum setting.


Are you speaking of the sub level of -2.5dB?

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post #19723 of 19728 Old Today, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
Both SVS and Velodyne indicated that the crossover for those speakers are 120Hz.
I can't tell what make the speakers are, but you should check the manufacturer's specs. The xover should probably be at least 10Hz higher than the -3dB point. Remember also that Audyssey is running a test to see how your speakers perform in your room in real life. If you have a big space to fill, maybe they have a higher effective roll-off than the official specs show. If you have REW you can run a sweep to see if it shows any dip in output with the crossover set to 120Hz (a double-check if you don't trust the Audyssey results, but you'll need a mic to run with REW).
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post #19724 of 19728 Old Today, 12:53 PM
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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkRationally View Post
I can't tell what make the speakers are, but you should check the manufacturer's specs. The xover should probably be at least 10Hz higher than the -3dB point. Remember also that Audyssey is running a test to see how your speakers perform in your room in real life. If you have a big space to fill, maybe they have a higher effective roll-off than the official specs show. If you have REW you can run a sweep to see if it shows any dip in output with the crossover set to 120Hz (a double-check if you don't trust the Audyssey results, but you'll need a mic to run with REW).

The speakers are CHT Front Row by Velodyne and suggest a crossover 120Hz as does SVS. But like you said...suggestions.

Should I move the sub-level to 0?


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post #19725 of 19728 Old Today, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ThinkRationally View Post
Would this approach also work? I have a Yamaha AVR that has no sub EQ (I have a mini-DSP), but it does set the distance to the sub (so it time-aligns it).

- Set both subs' phases to 0.

- Run YPAO (Yamaha's room correction) with one sub and get the distance to that sub at the MLP.

- Run YPAO with the second sub and get the distance. It will likely be different, unless your subs are equidistant from the MLP.

- Adjust the phase on the second sub and re-run room correction until the distance is the same as that set for the first sub. This should time-align them at the MLP, correct?

- Run room correction with both subs active to get the levels (then increase them to run the subs hot, of course). If all went well, the distance for the sub should be the same as you calibrated for when setting up the subs.

You may need to start with one particular sub (physically closest or furthest, I'm not sure which), because if you start with a phase of zero you will only be able to correct in one direction.

Any thoughts on this approach?

There are two time-alignments to think about if you have dual subs. 1) Combo Subs-to-Mains and 2) Sub1- to-Sub2


The former is done by setting the subs distance in your AVR setup menu and the latter is done by specialized equipment, like SubEQ from Aydyssey or the AS-EQ1 from SVS. The Sub1-to-Sub2 alignment is what I was referring to in my earlier procedure.


I believe the procedure you suggested will mess things up unnecessarily. Simply follow the procedure I suggested earlier to make the two subs play as a single subwoofer and then use YPAO and the miniDSP toEQ the combo sub response and integrate them with your mains.

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #19726 of 19728 Unread Today, 01:19 PM
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There are two time-alignments to think about if you have dual subs. 1) Combo Subs-to-Mains and 2) Sub1- to-Sub2
Yes, I know. The AVR is aligning the sub with the speakers every time I run YPAO (or Audyssey, or MCACC).


Quote:
The former is done by setting the subs distance in your AVR setup menu and the latter is done by specialized equipment, like SubEQ from Aydyssey or the AS-EQ1 from SVS. The Sub1-to-Sub2 alignment is what I was referring to in my earlier procedure.
I knew what you were talking about. If I do one sub with YPAO, it will set the distance so that it is aligned with the speakers. To run two subs, I need them to be set so that the same signal from the AVR will result in them both being in phase with each other and with the speakers.

So my thought was to set one sub and note the distance. Then disconnect that sub, and work with the second sub. Initially, it may have a different distance setting, but by adjusting the phase on the sub I should be able to dial it in so that the AVR sets it to the same distance as the first sub. They would then be in phase with the speakers, and they would also be in phase with each other using the same sub out signal from the AVR, by virtue of having the same time delay to the MLP.


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I believe the procedure you suggested will mess things up unnecessarily. Simply follow the procedure I suggested earlier to make the two subs play as a single subwoofer and then use YPAO and the miniDSP toEQ the combo sub response and integrate them with your mains.
Please explain how it will mess things up. I have no problem with your procedure--I was merely thinking of alternatives, and if the one I'm outlining is flawed, I'd like to understand how.

Basically, I'm just using YPAO to find the phase adjustment setting required to get the subs in phase with one another. Once that is done, YPAO can be used to set the volume when both are run together, then the miniDSP and REW can be used to EQ the subs.
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post #19727 of 19728 Unread Today, 01:26 PM
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So WTH do I find an SPL meter?


And FWIW, I've got Audyssey XT - no XT32 or SubEQ or anything (sure wish I did, and WILL this summer when the new DENONs roll out.)

I appreciate your guide to the manual phase adjustment method.

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post #19728 of 19728 Unread Today, 01:29 PM
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I'm going to run Audyssey again...I'm not happy with the sound, very boomy and bloated. Yesterday, I was hearing a clean thump but today, more of a thud.
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