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post #20851 of 20864 Old 03-26-2015, 08:16 AM
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Using 40 with music your towers are doing 99% of the work anyway. Very little content below 40 in music unless you're listening to dubstep.
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post #20852 of 20864 Old 03-26-2015, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T0S View Post
mantaraydesign, just based on my personal experience I would recommend you at least try listening to 2-channel using the Audyssey set up for a while with at most the adjustments Ed Mullen recommends. Right now perhaps you are thinking Pure Direct sounds better - but really its just taking you back to what you are used to - which is in fact inaccurate due to room issues.

Anyway, my experience was the same but after listening with Audyssey flat for a couple of weeks I realized I was getting a more detailed soundstage and going back to Pure Direct (or without Audyssey) collapsed the music back into darkness...
What is Audyssey Flat? Where do I go into the Denon receiver to get Audyssey Flat?

I have listened with Audyssey on in Direct mode and Stereo mode and did not really enjoy the music in 2-channel music. I am using a standalone CD player with rca cable (Left/Right). My CD player does not have HDMI connection.

Let me know how to listen to 2-channel music with Audyssey Flat. As of right now, Pure Direct Mode is my favorite choice.

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post #20853 of 20864 Old 03-26-2015, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Using 40 with music your towers are doing 99% of the work anyway. Very little content below 40 in music unless you're listening to dubstep.
I would tend to agree. Hip-hop, dub-step, trance, rap, and acoustic pipe organ are a few examples where there can be very deep bass on music recordings. Generally though, music like rock, pop, jazz, progressive, etc. doesn't have much content <35 Hz (low E on the electric bass is 40 Hz).
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post #20854 of 20864 Old 03-26-2015, 02:38 PM
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I will give Large a listen and see if i can tell a difference. Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
I would tend to agree. Hip-hop, dub-step, trance, rap, and acoustic pipe organ are a few examples where there can be very deep bass on music recordings. Generally though, music like rock, pop, jazz, progressive, etc. doesn't have much content <35 Hz (low E on the electric bass is 40 Hz).



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post #20855 of 20864 Old 03-27-2015, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
You can double check with Chris K - but I believe Audyssey does the level match and time alignment from the primary LP on the first measurement.

What measurement system are you using to conclude Audyssey sets the subwoofer channel 4-5 dB lower than the speaker channels?

I have noticed that Audyssey sometimes doesn't hit exactly 75 dB on the speaker channels, so you have to check the speaker channels and the sub channel to determine the relative delta (if it exists) between them. If you are using a C-weighted SPL meter, add ~3 dB to the meter reading to get the actual unweighted SPL from the sub channel.

The Disney WOW DVD uses the LFE channel for the subwoofer rumble tone. Presumably that tone is encoded 10 dB lower than the speaker channel tones, but I can't speak to that as factual.
Hi Ed,

The Disney WOW disc tones are all recorded at -20 dbSF (as confirmed by Roger Dressler - see the below link), so there is indeed a 10dB delta between the sats and LFE. In this case, the disc fails to account for the 10dB goose to the LFE by the AVR (WOW is actually 10dB too hot). After letting Audyssey do its thing, I double checked all of the sats to make sure they were at the same level (using a Galaxy 140 SPL meter at the MLP), and they were all pretty much spot-on. The LFE, however, came in only 5dB higher (allowing for the 3dB shortfall) instead of the expected 10dB, so I had to raise the trim by about 5dB just to get flat with the sats. At the end of the day, I have the gain on both subs set to -14 (the best I could do before my AVR trim was buried at -12), Audyssey set the AVR trim to -10.5, I had to raise this to -5.5 for a flat calibration, and further goosed it to -2.5... In total the final trim is +8dB above where Audyssey put it, but the net result is that I am running +3dB hot relative to a flat calibration. Both MultiEQ and XT32 yielded similar results.

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Even checking against SD-DVE from back in the day (which has a well-documented 10dB discrepancy) yields the same results. Of course, that is only in my room, and every room is different. But, given the number of similar reports (concerning Audyssey setting LFE too cold), the few reports of Audyssey's final LFE trim setting being correct with no tweaking needed (I even saw one where the guy had to lower the trim to taste...?!?) seem to be the exception...

If anybody can see a problem that I missed, it would be you. Here are my before/after FR graphs:
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Last edited by Vader424242; Yesterday at 01:37 PM.
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post #20856 of 20864 Old Yesterday, 11:09 AM
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PB2000's WOW

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Originally Posted by jrg6771 View Post
I have finally decided to upgrade from my older 15" Definitive Powerfield 1500 and 15" Atlantic Tech THX 452PBM. These subs were fine for their day but were limited on how low they could get. I decided and ordered the Dual PB2000s. I can't wait till they get here and am sure they will have much more punch than my older subs. SVS was awesome and answered all my questions.

Well after a week with the Dual PB-2000's, I can say I am truly impressed. The upgrade from my older 15" (subs?) was well worth it. Even though I am using towers for most channels I took the advice found within these forums and set my crossovers at 80hz for all channels. The bass is tight, and not overbearing at all. I did end up running the subs 3db above what Audyssey had set them to and that put these Subs into the bed rock. My room is about 5000 cubic feet and dual subs seemed the way to go. I may still consider saving during the next year and upgrading to Dual PB12-Plus'. For $1200 more plus shipping it seems like a no-brainer. So glad I tried them out.

My system: 7.1.2

Panasonic 65VT30 THX Plasma
Denon 4311 (powering surround channels only)
Adcom GFA555 x 2 (powering front and centers)
L/R: Definitive BP30 x 2
C: Definitive CLR2000
SL/SR: Definitive BP30 x 2
SRBL/SRBR: Definitive BP30 x 2
PLIIZ Heights: Definitive BP1X Bi-Polars x 2
Dual SVS PB-2000 Subwoofers

Last edited by jrg6771; Yesterday at 11:13 AM.
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post #20857 of 20864 Old Yesterday, 11:22 AM
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What Channel Level?

I had my 20 year old sub repaired a couple of months ago and last week it went out again during the Red Sea scene in Exodus. This coming Wed. Magnolia (Best Buy) will be delivering a new SVS PB 2000 and I will set it up using the auto MCACC system setup on my Pioneer Elite receiver. This system had set the channel level for my old sub at -10dB...I guess I'm a bit worried because of the recent problems with old sub and am wondering what the normal channel level range is for the SVS PB 2000 using a Pioneer Elite receiver?
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post #20858 of 20864 Old Yesterday, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrg6771 View Post
Well after a week with the Dual PB-2000's, I can say I am truly impressed.
Congrats...I've had my dual PB-2000's (6dB hot) a year now and am still extremely happy with their performance in my 4800 CF theater. As I approached their one year anniversary, I ordered a single PB-13 Ultra to see if I wanted/needed more. No question the Ultra has a bit more output around port tune, but I ultimately decided the advantage of dual 2K's were still adequate for me...YMMV. Of course, dual PB-13U's would be a different scenario. It'll be interesting to see what you ultimately decide a year from now.. Enjoy!
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post #20859 of 20864 Old Yesterday, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MN-Rabbit View Post
I guess I'm a bit worried because of the recent problems with old sub
Although I'm not technically competent to speak on the subject, I believe the SVS subs all have limiting parameters in their design to prevent your past sub experience...so I'm pretty sure no worries.

Panasonic: PT-AE3000 Front Projector
Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1)
Onkyo: TX-NR809
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post #20860 of 20864 Old Yesterday, 03:34 PM
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Two weeks ago, I ordered an XV15se. I demo'd it most of last week and this, and it's really impressive. Unfortunately, even though I showed my wife how bit it was before, had measured it out, and did everything shy of making an actual physical mock-up out of corrugated boxes, she freaked when she saw it. She hates it. I must say I don't love it's looks either, but I for the sound I could live with it. It was supposed to replace a little Martin Logan Dynamo, which is only about a cubic foot, and just can't do home theater work in my 13x21' room.

So, that's getting shipped back.

I figured the SB-2000 would be small enough, since a PB-2000 is also going to also have zero chance at the WAF. Then I figured I'd show her the PC-2000 to see what she thought. This time I found a 16" shipping tube at work, and I brought it home and made a physical mock-up. I showed her a pic of the real deal, then showed her the tube, and she said she'd be fine with that, and even wanted the glossy top. I ordered one today, and I'm hoping it's not that big of a step down from the XV15se.

Any feedback on how much different it will be? This is definitely the biggest sub I'm going to get away with, so maybe it doesn't even matter.
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post #20861 of 20864 Old Yesterday, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htpc-geek View Post
Two weeks ago, I ordered an XV15se. I demo'd it most of last week and this, and it's really impressive. Unfortunately, even though I showed my wife how bit it was before, had measured it out, and did everything shy of making an actual physical mock-up out of corrugated boxes, she freaked when she saw it. She hates it. I must say I don't love it's looks either, but I for the sound I could live with it. It was supposed to replace a little Martin Logan Dynamo, which is only about a cubic foot, and just can't do home theater work in my 13x21' room.

So, that's getting shipped back.

I figured the SB-2000 would be small enough, since a PB-2000 is also going to also have zero chance at the WAF. Then I figured I'd show her the PC-2000 to see what she thought. This time I found a 16" shipping tube at work, and I brought it home and made a physical mock-up. I showed her a pic of the real deal, then showed her the tube, and she said she'd be fine with that, and even wanted the glossy top. I ordered one today, and I'm hoping it's not that big of a step down from the XV15se.

Any feedback on how much different it will be? This is definitely the biggest sub I'm going to get away with, so maybe it doesn't even matter.
My guess is that, unless you are listening at high levels, the PC2000 will sound just as good, and might even seem to have a bit more impact at moderate volume on movies. I say this because I think the XV15se rolls off a little bit more below 25 Hz. So at 15 below reference, the PC2000 will hit just as hard or harder. At higher levels, especially on music, the PC2000 won't have as much output.
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post #20862 of 20864 Unread Today, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post
Hi Ed,

The Disney WOW disc tones are all recorded at -20 dbSF (as confirmed by Roger Dressler - see the below link), so there is indeed a 10dB delta between the sats and LFE. In this case, the disc fails to account for the 10dB goose to the LFE by the AVR (WOW is actually 10dB too hot). After letting Audyssey do its thing, I double checked all of the sats to make sure they were at the same level (using a Galaxy 140 SPL meter at the MLP), and they were all pretty much spot-on. The LFE, however, came in only 5dB higher (allowing for the 3dB shortfall) instead of the expected 10dB, so I had to raise the trim by about 5dB just to get flat with the sats. At the end of the day, I have the gain on both subs set to -14 (the best I could do before my AVR trim was buried at -12), Audyssey set the AVR trim to -10.5, I had to raise this to -5.5 for a flat calibration, and further goosed it to -2.5... In total the final trim is +8dB above where Audyssey put it, but the net result is that I am running +3dB hot relative to a flat calibration. Both MultiEQ and XT32 yielded similar results.

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Even checking against SD-DVE from back in the day (which has a well-documented 10dB discrepancy) yields the same results. Of course, that is only in my room, and every room is different. But, given the number of similar reports (concerning Audyssey setting LFE too cold), the few reports of Audyssey's final LFE trim setting being correct with no tweaking needed (I even saw one where the guy had to lower the trim to taste...?!?) seem to be the exception...

If anybody can see a problem that I missed, it would be you. Here are my before/after FR graphs:
As Roger Dressler stated in your link, mastering all tones at -20 dBFS is an error. Adjusting the speaker channels to 85 dB compensates for using -20 dBFS instead of the more common -30 dBFS. But the bigger error was mastering the LFE channel tone at the same level as the speaker channels. To compensate for that, the subwoofer would need to be set to 92 dB (C/Slow) on the SPL meter for a true level match.

Given we have found three errors (two encoding and one instructional) on that DVD, I'm not sure I would be entirely comfortable using it as any sort of reference standard.

Regardless, I have not personally observed Audyssey setting the subwoofer channel 8 dB lower (compensating for the C-weighted error on the SPL meter) than the speaker channels. In my direct set-ups and in set-ups with customers who have an SPL meter, it's consistently within 1 dB of the speaker channels (again compensating for the C weighted filter). The most recent set-up I did with a customer showed the mains all checking in at 72 dB and the sub checking in at 69 dB - a spot on level match.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened - only that I haven't observed it (and that's over dozens of Audyssey set-ups). If it's happening with certain Audyssey-equipped AVRs (which certainly seems to be the case with your set-up) and can be absolutely confirmed with a high degree of confidence, then I would hope a firmware upgrade would be available to correct the problem.

Getting back to the bigger point, most enthusiasts do like the run the sub channel a little hot (I personally don't), but I think we agree that 2-3 dB hot (once the true/accurate levels are established) adds enough spice without ruining the presentation.

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post #20863 of 20864 Unread Today, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
My guess is that, unless you are listening at high levels, the PC2000 will sound just as good, and might even seem to have a bit more impact at moderate volume on movies. I say this because I think the XV15se rolls off a little bit more below 25 Hz. So at 15 below reference, the PC2000 will hit just as hard or harder. At higher levels, especially on music, the PC2000 won't have as much output.
Not necessarily...this is all dependent on room gain and the room correction software being used. Base response is not a accurate way to judge sub performance.

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post #20864 of 20864 Unread Today, 08:37 AM
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Not necessarily...this is all dependent on room gain and the room correction software being used. Base response is not a accurate way to judge sub performance.
The XV15se definitely has more max output capability. However, if you did a 100 dB sine wave sweep to check the FR of both subs in room, the PC/PB2000 would have a good 5 dB advantage between 16-25 Hz. Once both subs reach their output limits, the XV would keep getting louder. But @ 15 below reference, the SVS has less roll off below 25 Hz. Room gain will have the same effect on both subs. The shallower roll-off will hit harder up until the point that the PC2000 hits its limiter.
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