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post #23071 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Thanx for all the info folks. I need to really consider my purchase. I tell you I do watch movies at reference level. But I never run my subs hot.
Based on this, I would definitely start with a single PB13Ultra. You will need a 2nd to play reference level cleanly.
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post #23072 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That's interesting! I can't really enjoy extremely loud volumes, in general, but I do like plenty of bass in movies, so I run my subs very hot. Do you leave your sub levels wherever your AVR set them?
Yes
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post #23073 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 04:30 PM
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Ok my plan is two subs. Can I get to reference cleanly in a 2700 cuft treated room with two sealed subs?
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post #23074 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Ok my plan is two subs. Can I get to reference cleanly in a 2700 cuft treated room with two sealed subs?

With two SB-13's, I would say yes. If you have been reaching Reference volumes with adequate bass in the past, what do you have now?

Edit: I will defer to Bear's answer below on the question of whether two Sb-13's will reach Reference. But I had to go back several days in the thread to refresh my memory about the original question. I think that if you want to listen at Reference levels, and particularly considering the recent discussion of sealed subs, you should probably just start with PB's. I would be shocked if those didn't give you enough bass, and especially so, if you don't generally raise your sub trim from where your AVR puts it.

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post #23075 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Ok my plan is two subs. Can I get to reference cleanly in a 2700 cuft treated room with two sealed subs?
Not with anything SVS offers, no(not even remotely close). You need to hit 115 dB minimum, not including bass redirected to the subs from all your other channels. Gonna take two capable 18's to do that. Perhaps two F25's would do it. Dual Seaton Submersives likely would hit reference as well. Other than that, it's going to take 18's to get clean reference with two sealed subs.

Two PB13 Utlra's would do it, or 8 SB13 Ultras. 4 SB's might get you close, but not quite I'd say.
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post #23076 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 05:56 PM
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I should add that this is a totally sealed room. My old mfw15 held up pretty decent but would not give me the the shake when t-rex was walking.

Ok another question. Would two sealed subs be much better than what I already had?
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post #23077 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I should add that this is a totally sealed room. My old mfw15 held up pretty decent but would not give me the the shake when t-rex was walking.

Ok another question. Would two sealed subs be much better than what I already had?

Looking at a review of that sub, and comparing it to DataBass numbers for the SB-Ultra, I would say that the two SB's would slightly outperform the MFW-15 at a nominal 20Hz. But the difference would be slight. Two PB's on the other hand would outperform either of the other two options by a huge margin.

No offense, but I am a little unclear why you are still so focused on two sealed subs. I understand it better when someone is trying to obtain the best possible music quality, although opinions are very divided on that. People have not, apparently, had much luck in recognizing the difference in blind tests. I'm not saying that there can't be a difference--just that it might be pretty subtle. But in this case, where you want to watch movies at Reference volumes, it does seem to me that the safer path would be to go with two ported subs. Frankly, two PB-Pluses would outperform the two SB-Ultra's by a wide margin at 20Hz, and would at least break even at an octave above that.
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post #23078 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 06:44 PM
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I am really not set on anything. But I would really be bummed if I sold my mfw15 and really should have just got another. I didn't like how it sounded with music with my xmc1 though. I found it either bloated and slow or if I turned it down, lacking in slam. So this is why I think I may like sealed slightly more. I wish I could have my cake and you know.
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post #23079 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I am really not set on anything. But I would really be bummed if I sold my mfw15 and really should have just got another. I didn't like how it sounded with music with my xmc1 though. I found it either bloated and slow or if I turned it down, lacking in slam. So this is why I think I may like sealed slightly more. I wish I could have my cake and you know.
Just keep for now your sub and get SVS what model you want and you have free 45 days compare time and if you will feel you have no improvement what so ever just send it back. Really no risk at all. If you didn't try it "what if" will bother you for a long time.
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post #23080 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I am really not set on anything. But I would really be bummed if I sold my mfw15 and really should have just got another. I didn't like how it sounded with music with my xmc1 though. I found it either bloated and slow or if I turned it down, lacking in slam. So this is why I think I may like sealed slightly more. I wish I could have my cake and you know.
I think that good subs have come a long way since your old sub was made. The review I read was from exactly 8 years ago. And the Ultra remains at about the top of the food chain for sound quality, although it has been surpassed in terms of sheer output. As noted, above, it's pretty much a no-risk proposition to put an SVS sub on a credit card, audition it in-house, and decide whether you like it or not, before keeping it.

I believe that a PB-13 would blow your old sub away in every respect, including both power and speed. And my ported Ultra's have never sounded bloated.
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post #23081 of 23099 Old 02-03-2016, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
If you are going to mutually couple the two pairs of subs and only have the four subs in two locations, I think you would be better served upgrading from two PB2000's to two PB13 Ultras. More tuning options, lower extension, better finish quality, etc. And no issues with getting four subs playing properly together.
Appreciate the input bear...

As I currently have dual PB-2000's, I'm inclined to try both scenarios. I did audition a "single" PB13U last year and found that I preferred the dual 2K's overall. My primary objective is to gain more output and headroom while retaining the SQ of the 2K's. Tuning options and better finish are nice but are not priorities for me. Also and admittedly, my reluctance in moving forward with dual PB13U's is due to the increasing opinion that competitors are providing greater value and comparable or better performance due to the burden of PEQ amp. Now, having said this, I will most likely try "dual" PB13U's anyway. Thanks again!

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post #23082 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 07:53 AM
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I'm running dual PB13 in 16Hz tune. Originally I had the 800w(?) BASH amp in one, but now have the 1000w Sledge amps in both. That made a bit of a difference in shear output and (IMO) better control down deep at/near their limits. I don't remember what DataBass PB13 Ultras were used, but that may have been with the older amp.


There are many offerings out now that do compete very well against the PB13, but I will say I've been very happy over MANY years with SVS. They aren't a quick pop-up company or the latest best flavor. Not that some of these new companies aren't as good or better, but only time will tell if they're long term stable. Of course, with management changes at some of them (SVS to PSA comes to mind), there's no guarantee with SVS either. But they do have a big presence and now are distributing through brick&mortar stores.


If I was starting from scratch, knowing what I know now, I'd still heavily consider the SVS PB13U for music and home theater (60/40 for me). BUT, I'd also heavily consider PSA (Triax perhaps, or others from them with XLR inputs), Seaton definitely, and Funk Audio. Lots of good options on the market for consumers - it's a good time to be in the market for a sub!

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post #23083 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I should add that this is a totally sealed room. My old mfw15 held up pretty decent but would not give me the the shake when t-rex was walking.

Ok another question. Would two sealed subs be much better than what I already had?
Another thing you should be looking at is if the subs are going in the basement on a concrete floor. Concrete eats bass up for breakfast and leaves you little tactile feel unlike a suspended floor. In your case just get the PB's and leave nothing on the table. Your room is fairly big. The PB's might not even be enough to your liking.

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post #23084 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 08:09 AM
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I'm trying to maximize my PC2000 before I decide if I should get a second PC2000 or trade up to a Pc12 plus.

My room is about 2900 cu ft. This does not include the open space to the kitchen and sitting room. Audyssey has me set at -3 db and I run the subwoofer volume/gain about 1/3. I am looking for more impact while watching movies. I have been bumping the trim from -3 to 0. After making system changes I find my preferred listening volume to be from -35 to -25 area. Any harm to turning trim up even more? How much are many of you bumping the trine abouve Audyssey settings? The PC is currently corner loaded.
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post #23085 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by stygz View Post
I'm trying to maximize my PC2000 before I decide if I should get a second PC2000 or trade up to a Pc12 plus.

My room is about 2900 cu ft. This does not include the open space to the kitchen and sitting room. Audyssey has me set at -3 db and I run the subwoofer volume/gain about 1/3. I am looking for more impact while watching movies. I have been bumping the trim from -3 to 0. After making system changes I find my preferred listening volume to be from -35 to -25 area. Any harm to turning trim up even more? How much are many of you bumping the trine abouve Audyssey settings? The PC is currently corner loaded.

Adding second sub will be great if you can place them correctly. 2 PC-2000 over single Plus I will take all day long. Plus is better sub then 2000 no question so if you want to stay with single sub then Plus will be winner for me. It is great sub and will give you what you looking for with movies or music and always there is option to add second one.
BTW you can get 1 PC-2000 and one Plus and compare them in your house for 45 days. I did it same thing before had home 2 PC12-Pluses and PC13-Ultra.

I run both my pluses 5db hotter then Audyssey set it up.

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post #23086 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 08:28 AM
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I'm trying to maximize my PC2000 before I decide if I should get a second PC2000 or trade up to a Pc12 plus.

My room is about 2900 cu ft. This does not include the open space to the kitchen and sitting room. Audyssey has me set at -3 db and I run the subwoofer volume/gain about 1/3. I am looking for more impact while watching movies. I have been bumping the trim from -3 to 0. After making system changes I find my preferred listening volume to be from -35 to -25 area. Any harm to turning trim up even more? How much are many of you bumping the trine abouve Audyssey settings? The PC is currently corner loaded.
If it is an either/or situation, definitely add the second PC-2000 to your set up. I also started with a single PC-2000 and debated going up the food chain or adding a second. Very glad I went with the second PC-2000 to help smooth out response and provide a ton more impact with headroom. My media room is ~2400 cu ft and it absolutely slams when called upon.

As pointed out, you can always audition both options in home and see what works best to your liking though.

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With dual pc, they would be along the wall. I don't have 2 corners to work with. A single PC 12 plus would fit in the corner.


We will have to see how taxes go. So far it looks like I will be paying in again which will delay my upgrade for a few months.


I will have to try running the trim up even more.
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post #23088 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 08:50 AM
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Another thing you should be looking at is if the subs are going in the basement on a concrete floor. Concrete eats bass up for breakfast and leaves you little tactile feel unlike a suspended floor. In your case just get the PB's and leave nothing on the table. Your room is fairly big. The PB's might not even be enough to your liking.
It is in basement. But it is on a stage made of 3/4" osb framed. The stage is filled with sand. It is also made so none of the outer edges touch anything. Erskine's idea. Floor to ceiling bass traps up on the stage also.
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post #23089 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 01:56 PM
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To an extent I would always personally go with dual subs over a single more powerful sub. Now that being said, if I'm looking at dual BIC F-12's (a very capable budget sub FWIW) versus a single Submersive, I'm pretty sure I would side with the single sub. However in a situation where you're not taking that big of a step down, I would go with the duals. Dual subs is going to give you a smoother frequency response as you'll have much greater flexibility to deal with peaks and nulls.
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post #23090 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by stygz View Post
I'm trying to maximize my PC2000 before I decide if I should get a second PC2000 or trade up to a Pc12 plus.

My room is about 2900 cu ft. This does not include the open space to the kitchen and sitting room. Audyssey has me set at -3 db and I run the subwoofer volume/gain about 1/3. I am looking for more impact while watching movies. I have been bumping the trim from -3 to 0. After making system changes I find my preferred listening volume to be from -35 to -25 area. Any harm to turning trim up even more? How much are many of you bumping the trine abouve Audyssey settings? The PC is currently corner loaded.

Hi,

The consensus over on the Audyssey thread is that the average sub boost post-Audyssey is about +3 to +6db. Your master volume is low enough that you can boost your sub trim level in your AVR by as much as you want with no problem. But just as a matter of best practice, it is generally recommended that you set your gain level higher the next time you run an Audyssey calibration, so that you can get your trim level deeper into negative numbers. Ed Mullen explains the reason for that in the FAQ, linked below.

I like a lot of bass boost for movies, so I try to get to a trim level of about -11 (even -6 to -9 would be perfectly fine). That way, I can add as much additional bass boost as I want without going much into positive numbers. Again, your MV is low enough that it will be absolutely no problem for you to add another 3 or 4db. But I like the idea of having an optimum set-up, just in case.

Regards,
Mike
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That's interesting! I can't really enjoy extremely loud volumes, in general, but I do like plenty of bass in movies, so I run my subs very hot. Do you leave your sub levels wherever your AVR set them?

Funny I watch movies with avr dialed in at +60-63 but run subs very hot adding 10db to audyssey.


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post #23092 of 23099 Old Yesterday, 08:20 PM
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Funny I watch movies with avr dialed in at +60-63 but run subs very hot adding 10db to audyssey.


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I'm pretty close to where you are. I might even go up to -14 (66) or so, and I add even more bass, post-Audyssey than you do. But, Reference: a master volume of 0.0, would run me right out of the room. Home theaters are already anywhere from about 5 to 7db louder than Reference (due to the smaller room effect with respect to early and late reflections) according to the film mixers who have posted on the subject. So, even they typically only listen at about -5 on their HT systems. Frankly, even -10 would seem uncomfortably loud to me, if the movie were very dynamic. I guess we all have a little different tolerance for loudness.
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I generally listen pretty close to reference, if not actually at reference. Seems there is a wide range of what people like in terms of loudness.
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I played the opening scene the other day of Edge of tomorrow with my ultras at -63 on avr and my iron front door flexed and vibrated so hard. Need a new door soon and have to leave it open. Hahahaha


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Hi,

I was just teasing you about the clock--that once you have your first PB-1000, you might not be able to hold out for very long before getting your second.

Don't worry about where you bought your sub. As a matter of fact, I also got my first SVS sub, a PC-12 NSD, a number of years ago, from Amazon. My second one was a used PC-12 Plus, damaged in shipping. After that hassle, I decided to keep things simple and just buy all my subs directly from SVS. They really do have great customer service. But, it doesn't matter where you buy your subs, this thread is for everyone.

Regards,
Mike
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Don't worry, I didn't take it the wrong way. I was just trying to figure out if you were saying that I'll be buying the 2nd sooner than I think or something else. I will say, I'm definitely itching to buy another one already and the first one isn't even delivered yet.

So uhhhhhh.........

I guess it's time to update my signature to "2".


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post #23096 of 23099 Unread Today, 09:09 AM
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So uhhhhhh.........

I guess it's time to update my signature to "2".



I win!

But I think you're the bigger winner here. Let us know what you think.
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There are many offerings out now that do compete very well against the PB13, but I will say I've been very happy over MANY years with SVS. They aren't a quick pop-up company or the latest best flavor. Not that some of these new companies aren't as good or better, but only time will tell if they're long term stable. Of course, with management changes at some of them (SVS to PSA comes to mind), there's no guarantee with SVS either. But they do have a big presence and now are distributing through brick&mortar stores.


If I was starting from scratch, knowing what I know now, I'd still heavily consider the SVS PB13U for music and home theater (60/40 for me). BUT, I'd also heavily consider PSA (Triax perhaps, or others from them with XLR inputs), Seaton definitely, and Funk Audio. Lots of good options on the market for consumers - it's a good time to be in the market for a sub!
You make very valid points. I too have been a long time SVS customer and appreciate the quality of their products, customer support, and long term stability. I'm in agreement that the game has new players now...and SVS is still in the game.

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Originally Posted by stygz View Post
I'm trying to maximize my PC2000 before I decide if I should get a second PC2000 or trade up to a Pc12 plus.
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Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
Adding second sub will be great if you can place them correctly. 2 PC-2000 over single Plus I will take all day long.
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Originally Posted by mmmmmmbacon View Post
If it is an either/or situation, definitely add the second PC-2000 to your set up.
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
To an extent I would always personally go with dual subs over a single more powerful sub.
I'm in total agreement with the previous posters. I have dual PB-2000's and prefer their performance over a single PB13U in my 4800 cu ft space. Now pitted against "dual" 12+ or 13U is an entirely different matter.
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Panasonic: PT-AE3000 Front Projector
Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1)
Onkyo: TX-NR636 (5.2.2)
Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6
SVS: PB-2000 x 2
Panasonic: DMP-BD85
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Hey guys, I'm selling my SB-2000 (possibly both of them), along with a Parasound Halo A21 and Bowers & Wilkins CM speaker setup. If interested, head over to the classified section or PM me.

B&W CM9 S2, B&W CMC2 S2, DefTech XTR-20BP, Dual SVS SB-2000, Parasound Halo A21, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Samsung UN55F8000, Apple Mac Mini, Iomega NAS
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