Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 787 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23581 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

You actually want to have your sub trim in the negative numbers to give you plenty of room to turn up the sub volume in the AVR. So, -7 should be just fine, and unless you are planning to play at a master volume above about -10, you can adjust your sub up in the AVR by up to about 10db, which is double the current sub volume. If you want to go even higher than that, just do another Audyssey calibration, setting the sub gain even higher, and get to a trim level of -10 or -11. Using a high sub gain, and keeping your trim level fairly low in the AVR, puts the strain on the sub amp where it should be.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike for the quick reply. So i can leave it at -7, and manually adjust to lets say -2 with no issues? I thought i read somewhere on here that the goal was to get it as close to 0 on the avr as possible?
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post #23582 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bmock17 View Post
Thanks Mike for the quick reply. So i can leave it at -7, and manually adjust to lets say -2 with no issues? I thought i read somewhere on here that the goal was to get it as close to 0 on the avr as possible?

You are very welcome! Yes, -7 is fine and you can easily adjust it to -2, or even a little higher with no problem. SVS' advice is to try not to exceed 0.0 in trim level above about -10 in MV. There is some trial and error involved in all of this, and probably some cushion, as well. But you would like a nice negative trim post-calibration, with AVR adjustments as indicated earlier, in order to avoid distortion.
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post #23583 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by COZisBack View Post
Welcome to the dual SVS family.

I only have 2 suggestions:

  1. Set up properly using whatever configuration technique you prefer or have the ability to use.
  2. Send in-house family members shopping so you crank it "up-to-eleven" and enjoy your new purchase.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

That roughly 1/4 wall location in front works well for a lot of people with dual subs. That would also help a lot with any potential localization issues you might have, depending on where the crossovers on your main speakers are set. Another location that you could consider is somewhere behind the listening area. Just as a starting point some sub gurus recommend 1/4 walls front and back, or diagonal corners front and back. But you will probably have to experiment a little to find out where they sound the best. Unless you have listening help, clearing the house, as Coz suggested, might make things easier for you.

Regards,
Mike
I appreciate the advice guys. You had my laughing over here. And then I realized you weren't kidding. I can't wait to try this out. Best placement is in the front, maybe next to the couch. I will test it all out and report what I found. Thanks again!
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post #23584 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pacman9270 View Post
I appreciate the advice guys. You had my laughing over here. And then I realized you weren't kidding. I can't wait to try this out. Best placement is in the front, maybe next to the couch. I will test it all out and report what I found. Thanks again!

You are welcome! Well, at least partly kidding, anyway.
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post #23585 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Clear, thanks for your thoughts.
My mind is not made up, either way, but think going one way and getting 2x SB2000 would make more sence......
I'd switch to dual PB2000's or dual PB1000's. The sealed SB2000 you have will sound just as good on music as the ported subs(probably worse since matching dual subs will improve your frequency response, hence sound quality), but of course it would take four SB2000's to approach the output of a single PB2000 @ 20 Hz. So you should get better sound quality for music, and drastically higher output for movies. Now if your room is small, or you don't listen very loud, dual SB2000's might give you enough output. But again, one PB2000 will double two SB2000's.
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post #23586 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

...you can adjust your sub up in the AVR by up to about 10db, which is double the current sub volume.

Regards,
Mike
6 dB is double, or 100% increase in output. 9 dB would be a 150% increase, 12 dB would be a quadrupling.
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post #23587 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I'd switch to dual PB2000's or dual PB1000's. The sealed SB2000 you have will sound just as good on music as the ported subs(probably worse since matching dual subs will improve your frequency response, hence sound quality), but of course it would take four SB2000's to approach the output of a single PB2000 @ 20 Hz. So you should get better sound quality for music, and drastically higher output for movies. Now if your room is small, or you don't listen very loud, dual SB2000's might give you enough output. But again, one PB2000 will double two SB2000's.
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
6 dB is double, or 100% increase in output. 9 dB would be a 150% increase, 12 dB would be a quadrupling.
Hi Bear,

I don't want to answer for the OP in your first post, but I was helping him on another thread and he tried a ported sub and just wasn't pleased with it in his room, so he sent it back. I suggested that he try a sealed sub before giving up, and that apparently is working better. Getting a second one should work well in his specific situation.

With respect to volume, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. A 10db increase in volume constitutes a doubling in perceived volume. I agree that each 3db increase in volume requires a doubling in power, but that is a separate thing. So, +3db requires double the power, and sounds like about a 30% increase in volume; +6db requires 4 times the original power, and sounds like about a 60% increase in volume, and so on.

Regards,
Mike
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post #23588 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Bear,

I don't want to answer for the OP in your first post, but I was helping him on another thread and he tried a ported sub and just wasn't pleased with it in his room, so he sent it back. I suggested that he try a sealed sub before giving up, and that apparently is working better. Getting a second one should work well in his specific situation.
Sounds like you are probably correct.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
With respect to volume, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. A 10db increase in volume constitutes a doubling in perceived volume. I agree that each 3db increase in volume requires a doubling in power, but that is a separate thing. So, +3db requires double the power, and sounds like about a 30% increase in volume; +6db requires 4 times the original power, and sounds like about a 60% increase in volume, and so on.

Regards,
Mike
You may be correct here as well. I have heard about the fact that it may take more than double the acoustical output to be perceived as twice as loud, just not 100% convinced this is true. I'm not at all saying it isn't, I just don't have enough information to be comfortable saying it is true. So up until now I have considered 6 dB to be twice as loud.
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post #23589 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
You may be correct here as well. I have heard about the fact that it may take more than double the acoustical output to be perceived as twice as loud, just not 100% convinced this is true. I'm not at all saying it isn't, I just don't have enough information to be comfortable saying it is true. So up until now I have considered 6 dB to be twice as loud.

I can't swear to it myself, but based on what I have read, that is the way our hearing works, and a great deal of audio theory is based on that formula. We have been having some conversations about preferred listening levels on another thread, and frankly the more we talk about it, the more confusing it gets. There are just so many variables that go into determining what volume levels we like.
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post #23590 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I can't swear to it myself, but based on what I have read, that is the way our hearing works, and a great deal of audio theory is based on that formula. We have been having some conversations about preferred listening levels on another thread, and frankly the more we talk about it, the more confusing it gets. There are just so many variables that go into determining what volume levels we like.
Regarding preferred listening levels, I think that for many people this is affected by system capability. I often see people state something like "no way I could ever listen at reference level, that would just be painfully loud." Although that is probably true in a few cases, I think most of the time people are not capable of clean, distortion free reference capability in a treated room without horrible reflections and what not. For every "I could never listen at reference" statement, I see just as many people say "wow, I visited someone's dedicated theater room and listened at reference or above very comfortably. Did not seem all that loud at all." This is clearly a case of not realizing what it takes to achieve clean, uncompressed, low distortion reference level capability. And I'm not looking down my nose at anyone....I certainly don't have reference capability above the subwoofer bandwidth. Above -10 starts to get pretty shaky on my system.

My opinion is that as people start to exceed their system's capability, before things sound very noticeably "bad" or misbehaved, it starts to sound uncomfortably loud.

Last edited by bear123; 03-31-2016 at 05:20 PM.
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post #23591 of 24595 Old 03-31-2016, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Regarding preferred listening levels, I think that for many people this is affected by system capability. I often see people state something like "no way I could ever listen at reference level, that would just be painfully loud." Although that is probably true in a few cases, I think most of the time people are not capable of clean, distortion free reference capability in a treated room without horrible reflections and what not. For every "I could never listen at reference" statement, I see just as many people say "wow, I visited someone's dedicated theater room and listened at reference or above very comfortably. Did not seem all that loud at all." This is clearly a case of not realizing what it takes to achieve clean, uncompressed, low distortion reference level capability. And I'm not looking down my nose at anyone....I certainly don't have reference capability above the subwoofer bandwidth. Above -10 starts to get pretty shaky on my system.

My opinion is that as people start to exceed their system's capability, before things sound very noticeably "bad" or misbehaved, it starts to sound uncomfortably loud.

I think you are right. It takes a pretty powerful system to approach Reference volumes, and a pretty well-treated room to sound good doing it. And distortion can definitely make things sound uncomfortably loud. From what I have seen most people on the forum seem to prefer listening between about -10 and -20. I do too.
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post #23592 of 24595 Old 04-01-2016, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I'd switch to dual PB2000's or dual PB1000's. The sealed SB2000 you have will sound just as good on music as the ported subs(probably worse since matching dual subs will improve your frequency response, hence sound quality), but of course it would take four SB2000's to approach the output of a single PB2000 @ 20 Hz. So you should get better sound quality for music, and drastically higher output for movies. Now if your room is small, or you don't listen very loud, dual SB2000's might give you enough output. But again, one PB2000 will double two SB2000's.
Hi, thanks for your reply :-)
I used a ported sub, did not like it so i am now using a sealed SB2000 and i like it.
I have also sealed fronts, maybe this is why this is a good match.
As a second sub is a gamble if it will improve the sound i have now, i will stay with one SB, for now more then enough SPL with my two stereo amps on Bi-amp mode (do not have a receiver).
Have the SB just on 50% volume and thats in some movie parts even to loud.
I leave it a 50%, for music , TV, and for most movies its excelent
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post #23593 of 24595 Old 04-01-2016, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think you are right. It takes a pretty powerful system to approach Reference volumes, and a pretty well-treated room to sound good doing it. And distortion can definitely make things sound uncomfortably loud. From what I have seen most people on the forum seem to prefer listening between about -10 and -20. I do too.
While I'm very sure my system isn't capable of going to full reference, I did find that I was able to comfortably listen to things much louder after I added room treatments. I'm sure that had an impact on my listening levels.
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post #23594 of 24595 Old 04-01-2016, 08:45 AM
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Holy $H!$! I still have some work to do but... wow! I haven't calibrated anything yet. All I did was add the second sub to the other side of my front stage and put in a music CD and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. I believe that movie is a great demo/test disc for bloated LFE.

I've been skeptical of many forum posts and advertisements, so I've been trying to get experience with different technologies and system configurations. I do have some time with this second sub, so I will continue my learning / testing experience to confirm/disprove all the hype.

I cannot wait for this weekend to really get into some calibration and testing!
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post #23595 of 24595 Old 04-01-2016, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pacman9270 View Post
Holy $H!$! I still have some work to do but... wow! I haven't calibrated anything yet. All I did was add the second sub to the other side of my front stage and put in a music CD and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. I believe that movie is a great demo/test disc for bloated LFE.

I've been skeptical of many forum posts and advertisements, so I've been trying to get experience with different technologies and system configurations. I do have some time with this second sub, so I will continue my learning / testing experience to confirm/disprove all the hype.

I cannot wait for this weekend to really get into some calibration and testing!
Nothing like going from a single to duals. Enjoy!
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post #23596 of 24595 Old 04-01-2016, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
As a second sub is a gamble if it will improve the sound i have now, i will stay with one SB

You do realize that there is ZERO gamble with SVS and their free 45 day in-home audition, right?

You don't like it, they pay to pick it up.

There is literally no downside other than having to be around for the FedEx guy.

Order thyself a second SB2000 post haste.


Edit: Oh wait...you're in Holland. Well...crap. Move to the US and THEN do the above.
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post #23597 of 24595 Old 04-01-2016, 10:05 AM
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You do realize that there is ZERO gamble with SVS and their free 45 day in-home audition, right?

You don't like it, they pay to pick it up.

There is literally no downside other than having to be around for the FedEx guy.

Order thyself a second SB2000 post haste.


Edit: Oh wait...you're in Holland. Well...crap. Move to the US and THEN do the above.

Tried more subs in the past, did not work du to my L-shaped room.
Have the MLP in the middle of the room, not the best spot to sit, and have 2 big bass pockets, one 2 meter behinde the SPL, one 2 meter in front the MLP where the fronts are.
In the past XT32 with SubEQ did nothing for the big 0 in the MLP.
Have the SB2000 in the corner that gives the most SPL in the MLP, the possible 2nd corner will give 3-4 dB less SPL if it would put a sub there.

Last edited by CBdicX; 04-01-2016 at 10:13 AM.
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post #23598 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 12:45 PM
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Greetings all! I just upgraded from an Epik Empire to dual SVS PB-2000s to go along with my SVS Ultra tower surround system!

I can't wait to get them hooked up and dialed in. Glad to find an owners thread in case I have issues.

Justin
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post #23599 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:07 PM
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I have questions about the SVS Outlet subs. Are they generally customer returns after the demo period or can they be year old turn-ins where someone has used them for a year and upgraded to something else? I know they can have various scratches, dents, etc that could happen in shipping or with use. Just curious as to how they handle those and how much "reconditioning" they do.
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post #23600 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:16 PM
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I have questions about the SVS Outlet subs. Are they generally customer returns after the demo period or can they be year old turn-ins where someone has used them for a year and upgraded to something else? I know they can have various scratches, dents, etc that could happen in shipping or with use. Just curious as to how they handle those and how much "reconditioning" they do.
They could be returns within the 45 day return window or they could be returns within the 1 year upgrade window. They could also be new subs that just happen to have some sort of flaw or imperfection.
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post #23601 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:20 PM
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They could be returns within the 45 day return window or they could be returns within the 1 year upgrade window. They could also be new subs that just happen to have some sort of flaw or imperfection.
Oh ok. I assume there's no way to tell which is which. I have my eye on a couple of PB-2000's and was just curious how old they would be. Of course I'd prefer 45 day returns or a new scratch & dent.
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post #23602 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:25 PM
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Oh ok. I assume there's no way to tell which is which. I have my eye on a couple of PB-2000's and was just curious how old they would be. Of course I'd prefer 45 day returns or a new scratch & dent.
Sometimes, people can't even find the imperfections.

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post #23603 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:25 PM
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I'm not aware of any way to tell what the circumstances are with different outlet subs. You could contact SVS and ask them about a specific B-stock sub and they might be able to tell you. Or this may not be something they divulge. No harm in asking.
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post #23604 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by stikle View Post
You do realize that there is ZERO gamble with SVS and their free 45 day in-home audition, right?

You don't like it, they pay to pick it up.

There is literally no downside other than having to be around for the FedEx guy.

Order thyself a second SB2000 post haste.


Edit: Oh wait...you're in Holland. Well...crap. Move to the US and THEN do the above.
There are 3 stores in Europe that sell SVS and offer 45 day return. SVS Germany, SVS Italy, and http://lsound.eu/
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post #23605 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:36 PM
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I'm not aware of any way to tell what the circumstances are with different outlet subs. You could contact SVS and ask them about a specific B-stock sub and they might be able to tell you. Or this may not be something they divulge. No harm in asking.
Yeah. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they say.
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post #23606 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

You actually want to have your sub trim in the negative numbers to give you plenty of room to turn up the sub volume in the AVR. So, -7 should be just fine, and unless you are planning to play at a master volume above about -10, you can adjust your sub up in the AVR by up to about 10db, which is double the current sub volume. If you want to go even higher than that, just do another Audyssey calibration, setting the sub gain even higher, and get to a trim level of -10 or -11. Using a high sub gain, and keeping your trim level fairly low in the AVR, puts the strain on the sub amp where it should be.

Regards,
Mike
Interesting. On my PC13 hooked up to Denon X5200 I have reduced gain on sub to -21 when calibrating. And after calibration trim in AVR was set to -5. After calibration I have increased gain on sub to -16. But i suppose thats all fine since sub is like 7-8 feet from MLP.
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post #23607 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 05:58 PM
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Interesting. On my PC13 hooked up to Denon X5200 I have reduced gain on sub to -21 when calibrating. And after calibration trim in AVR was set to -5. After calibration I have increased gain on sub to -16. But i suppose thats all fine since sub is like 7-8 feet from MLP.


Calibrating my PB13Us I have the setting around -22 but I increase to -12 after calibration... AVR is at -4,5... It's shaking my house apart but I love it...
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post #23608 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Interesting. On my PC13 hooked up to Denon X5200 I have reduced gain on sub to -21 when calibrating. And after calibration trim in AVR was set to -5. After calibration I have increased gain on sub to -16. But i suppose thats all fine since sub is like 7-8 feet from MLP.

Yes, it's fine. You do want to use the gain in your sub whichever way you get there. The reason it is generally recommended to start with the gain high in the sub to get a low trim level, and then make adjustments in the AVR, is mainly for convenience. For one thing, not every sub has digital controls, so it can be hard to remember where Audyssey originally set it, in case you want to return to that gain level. For another, it is very easy to make changes to the sub level in the Audio menu while you watch something. For instance, I adjusted one of my sub's up by a half decibel during a movie a little while ago.

But either way works just fine.
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post #23609 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bigmixx View Post
Oh ok. I assume there's no way to tell which is which. I have my eye on a couple of PB-2000's and was just curious how old they would be. Of course I'd prefer 45 day returns or a new scratch & dent.


If you're patient you will find very good ones. I spent about 6 weeks searching the outlet a couple of times daily for a second PC12+ to show up. It's in near perfect condition. All I could find was a slightly tilted SVS badge. (Pic below) My first one said it had a small dent on the grille. You couldn't see it in the pictures and in person you have to feel for it or use a flashlight. Very small near the edge so as far as I'm concerned it's like new.


Denon AVR-4520Ci receiver/Samsung UN65F7100 LED/Paradigm Monitor 11s front, CC-390 center, Mini Monitor front wide-surround-rear surround/SVS PC-12+ , dead Mirage BPSS-210 sub/Samsung BD-F5900 Blu-ray/PS3/PS4/XBox1/Apple TV3/Chromecast/Harmony 1100 remote/FiOS....Next: Amps, second sub
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post #23610 of 24595 Old 04-02-2016, 07:29 PM
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Sorry about the double pics. Dont know what I did there.


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Denon AVR-4520Ci receiver/Samsung UN65F7100 LED/Paradigm Monitor 11s front, CC-390 center, Mini Monitor front wide-surround-rear surround/SVS PC-12+ , dead Mirage BPSS-210 sub/Samsung BD-F5900 Blu-ray/PS3/PS4/XBox1/Apple TV3/Chromecast/Harmony 1100 remote/FiOS....Next: Amps, second sub
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