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post #23851 of 26124 Old 05-12-2016, 06:22 PM
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DJ Magic Mike and the Royal Posse. Feel the Bass (Speaker Terror Upper).
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post #23852 of 26124 Old 05-13-2016, 12:08 AM
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YouTube. Bass, I love you, by Basstronics. Wear a jock strap.
If there is one song Im sick of hearing on youtube, its that one lol
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post #23853 of 26124 Old 05-13-2016, 04:58 AM
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My daughter said her door was rattling. Her room is on the other side of the house, which is a single story 4500 square foot home.

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post #23854 of 26124 Old 05-13-2016, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mantaraydesign View Post
Thanks!

I was looking at the sound meter app for the iphone 6. Anyone ever use the sound meter app for the iphone 6 and it is accurate? The sound meter I have is pretty old and not digital. Maybe using the digital sound meter would be easier reading the number. It probably does not fluctuate very much.

Hi,

Does your AVR have any sort of automated means of setting sound levels? Most of them do. Which model do you have?

Part of the reason that I ask, is that trying to set your sound levels independently with an SPL meter can be a very unreliable method, particularly for subs. Even the higher quality calibrated digital meters, such as the Galaxy Audio CM-140, only go down to about 32Hz, which is not really very low for a sub. (By comparison, the Audyssey test tone goes down to 10Hz). Smart phone apps are even worse because they are limited by the built-in microphone. I don't remember exactly, but I believe that most mobile phone mics only go down to about 80Hz. They are, after all, primarily designed to capture the human voice, so they are bandwidth limited within a fairly narrow frequency range. Comparing my smart phone SPL app to my CM-140, the smartphone app is also pretty inaccurate. I was actually very disappointed when I discovered that.

For setting speaker levels, I would stay with the AVR if at all possible. That's something most of them do well.

Regards,
Mike
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post #23855 of 26124 Old 05-13-2016, 11:20 AM
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Watch the first 20 seconds of Edge of Tomorrow and u will see what this beast can really do.
I would not suggest that lol. I hate that intro. It's just a simple bass sweep that you can find anywhere.
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post #23856 of 26124 Old 05-14-2016, 12:11 AM
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I have the Sledge installed to replace my defective BASH, in my PB13-Ultra. It all seems to be working now but I'll have to rethink my sub placement. That's another discussion though, which has nothing to do with the amp.





Now what to do with my defective BASH? Do you think it's worth it to investigate fixing it as a backup?

BTW for Audyssey calibration, would you recommend setting the PB13-Ultra at -10 dB or 0 or something in between?

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post #23857 of 26124 Old 05-14-2016, 05:41 AM
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I have the Sledge installed to replace my defective BASH, in my PB13-Ultra. It all seems to be working now but I'll have to rethink my sub placement. That's another discussion though, which has nothing to do with the amp.





Now what to do with my defective BASH? Do you think it's worth it to investigate fixing it as a backup?

BTW for Audyssey calibration, would you recommend setting the PB13-Ultra at -10 dB or 0 or something in between?

Hi,

Just out of curiosity, is there any discernible difference between the two amps? I have had the impression that in addition to being more reliable, the Sledge amps offer a little more output, but that may just be wishful thinking. I don't know if it's worth paying to repair the Bash amp, but it should be worth saving for something--maybe at some point you would find a definite use for it.

In my opinion, it's better to do calibrations at about -10 or -11, on Denon/Marantz, for instance. That way, you can add as much sub trim as you want to in the AVR, without exceeding about 0.0. That is particularly important as you approach MV's of about -10. If you have Audyssey, and are engaging DEQ, then you need to be even more conservative with your trim level, as DEQ provides a bass boost of its own. The whole thing gets a little complicated, IMO, but starting with a sub trim at about -10, or so, is definitely a good way to go.

Regards,
Mike
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post #23858 of 26124 Old 05-14-2016, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Just out of curiosity, is there any discernible difference between the two amps? I have had the impression that in addition to being more reliable, the Sledge amps offer a little more output, but that may just be wishful thinking. I don't know if it's worth paying to repair the Bash amp, but it should be worth saving for something--maybe at some point you would find a definite use for it.
I can't comment on volume. After the amp died, I have since gotten a new receiver - Marantz SR5010 - added Atmos height speakers, and rearranged the room somewhat. Way too many variables. Plus I usually don't run the sub super loud anyway.

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In my opinion, it's better to do calibrations at about -10 or -11, on Denon/Marantz, for instance. That way, you can add as much sub trim as you want to in the AVR, without exceeding about 0.0. That is particularly important as you approach MV's of about -10. If you have Audyssey, and are engaging DEQ, then you need to be even more conservative with your trim level, as DEQ provides a bass boost of its own. The whole thing gets a little complicated, IMO, but starting with a sub trim at about -10, or so, is definitely a good way to go.
OK thx, I will start at -10 for the sub in Audyssey.
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post #23859 of 26124 Old 05-14-2016, 04:01 PM
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I did a manual setup of the PB13-Ultra on my Marantz SR5010, with the sub channel set at 0 on the receiver and sub set at -9 dB. Not only did it sound off, I eventually blew a fuse.

I ran Audyssey with the sub at -10 dB for the setup, and Audyssey further decreased it by -11 dB. The LFE actually had more impact than before, and was better integrated. Also, Audyssey considered my Paradigm Studio 60 v2 and CC v2 speakers as large, and only configured my surround and height speakers as small. My Paradigm Titan v1 surrounds are given a crossover of 40 Hz, and my Paradigm Atom v2 height speakers are given a crossover of 60 Hz. This is nicer than 80 Hz, since the sub is now less localizable configured this way.

Most of my other speakers are configured around the -5ish dB level. Maybe I'll re-run Audyssey with the PB13-Ultra at around -15 or -16 dB. If this changes the sub setting on the receiver to around -5, I wonder if this will change the sound significantly.

BTW, the fuses that came with the Sledge amp are T4AH250V. However, on the back of the unit it states the recommended fuses are T4AL250V. If I am correct, that means the recommend fuses are slow-blow 4 amp glass 250 V, but the unit actually came with slow-blow 4 amp ceramic 250 V. I can't find the ceramic ones locally, but I believe the glass ones are available.

Interestingly, these are significantly lower spec than the spec for the BASH amp, which used T6.3AL250V (which is 6.3 amps). I wonder if this means the BASH could go significantly louder, but like I said before, I can't really directly compare since my configuration is quite different, and I usually don't run super loud anyway.

Also, a lot of people seem to say they like to run their subs (SVS included) "hot" as compared to what Audyssey suggests, so that after Audyssey runs, they bump up the sub by about 3 dB or so. I don't think I'd want to do that. The setting Audyssey (XT) gave me is right about where I'd want it.
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post #23860 of 26124 Old 05-14-2016, 04:20 PM
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I may be wrong, but I think the digital Sledge would draw less current than the analog BASH.

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post #23861 of 26124 Old 05-14-2016, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
I did a manual setup of the PB13-Ultra on my Marantz SR5010, with the sub channel set at 0 on the receiver and sub set at -9 dB. Not only did it sound off, I eventually blew a fuse.

I ran Audyssey with the sub at -10 dB for the setup, and Audyssey further decreased it by -11 dB. The LFE actually had more impact than before, and was better integrated. Also, Audyssey considered my Paradigm Studio 60 v2 and CC v2 speakers as large, and only configured my surround and height speakers as small. My Paradigm Titan v1 surrounds are given a crossover of 40 Hz, and my Paradigm Atom v2 height speakers are given a crossover of 60 Hz. This is nicer than 80 Hz, since the sub is now less localizable configured this way.

Most of my other speakers are configured around the -5ish dB level. Maybe I'll re-run Audyssey with the PB13-Ultra at around -15 or -16 dB. If this changes the sub setting on the receiver to around -5, I wonder if this will change the sound significantly.

BTW, the fuses that came with the Sledge amp are T4AH250V. However, on the back of the unit it states the recommended fuses are T4AL250V. If I am correct, that means the recommend fuses are slow-blow 4 amp glass 250 V, but the unit actually came with slow-blow 4 amp ceramic 250 V. I can't find the ceramic ones locally, but I believe the glass ones are available.

Interestingly, these are significantly lower spec than the spec for the BASH amp, which used T6.3AL250V (which is 6.3 amps). I wonder if this means the BASH could go significantly louder, but like I said before, I can't really directly compare since my configuration is quite different, and I usually don't run super loud anyway.

Also, a lot of people seem to say they like to run their subs (SVS included) "hot" as compared to what Audyssey suggests, so that after Audyssey runs, they bump up the sub by about 3 dB or so. I don't think I'd want to do that. The setting Audyssey (XT) gave me is right about where I'd want it.

Hi,

I'm glad you like the new amp. I believe, if anything it should be slightly more powerful than the older Bash amp, since SVS lists the tuning point 1Hz lower with the newer amps.

A couple of quick comments on your calibration. Audyssey will ignore your AVR settings when it does the calibration. Having your sub trim at -11 post-calibration is just fine. It would sound the same if it were set to -5. You would just be lowering the gain setting on the sub to get there. The only reason you might want a higher trim setting would be to take some trim out of the sub, which as you noted, would be the reverse of the typical experience.

Don't forget to set your CC and front speakers to Small. You can pick whatever crossover sounds best, but 60Hz might be a good first choice. Unless your speakers are set to Small, your sub will not be supporting your speakers, and in addition to the bass programmed into those channels, the speakers set to Large will also be receiving the LFE channel content which is specifically intended for the subs.

It would probably be helpful to read the sub section in the FAQ, linked below, for more information on crossover settings.

Regards,
Mike
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post #23862 of 26124 Old 05-14-2016, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
A couple of quick comments on your calibration. Audyssey will ignore your AVR settings when it does the calibration. Having your sub trim at -11 post-calibration is just fine.
Oh, ok. Thx.

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Don't forget to set your CC and front speakers to Small. You can pick whatever crossover sounds best, but 60Hz might be a good first choice. Unless your speakers are set to Small, your sub will not be supporting your speakers, and in addition to the bass programmed into those channels, the speakers set to Large will also be receiving the LFE channel content which is specifically intended for the subs.

It would probably be helpful to read the sub section in the FAQ, linked below, for more information on crossover settings.
Actually, I've always preferred my mains and the centre as large, assuming they are relatively beefy speakers. Yes that negatively affects bass response but I've always felt it gives a better front sound, even when the sub is an SVS PB13-Ultra. In fact, if I had an ideal room and seating setup, I'd run as large all around with great big speakers, but admittedly this would be very difficult in most rooms with tweeter height issues and speaker placement and what not. It's just impractical most of the time. And it's even harder getting such full range speakers in the ceiling.

But then again, even though I own a PB13-Ultra, which was an upgrade from a PC-1000, I am the type of guy that recommends to others building a new surround system not to get a sub initially when budget is a concern. Put the money towards higher end front mains and centre, and then add the sub later.

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post #23863 of 26124 Old 05-15-2016, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
Oh, ok. Thx.

Actually, I've always preferred my mains and the centre as large, assuming they are relatively beefy speakers. Yes that negatively affects bass response but I've always felt it gives a better front sound, even when the sub is an SVS PB13-Ultra. In fact, if I had an ideal room and seating setup, I'd run as large all around with great big speakers, but admittedly this would be very difficult in most rooms with tweeter height issues and speaker placement and what not. It's just impractical most of the time. And it's even harder getting such full range speakers in the ceiling.

But then again, even though I own a PB13-Ultra, which was an upgrade from a PC-1000, I am the type of guy that recommends to others building a new surround system not to get a sub initially when budget is a concern. Put the money towards higher end front mains and centre, and then add the sub later.

Hi,

Your response has piqued my curiosity. What kind of AVR do you have? Typically with Denon/Marantz AVR's, if you set your Front speakers and your CC to "Large" your subwoofer(s) will be completely disabled, even if you set your Surrounds to "Small". If you have your front three set to Large, you can go into your Audio Menu, and the subwoofer volume control should be grayed out, indicating that the subs are not operating. That has historically been the case, and I just verified it again on my Marantz 7008.

Your AVR may be an exception to that general rule, which is why I am curious about what you have, but typically the only way to have your cake and eat it too is LFE + Main, which often results in quite boomy bass. The FAQ has some good information on that.

Are you absolutely sure that your Ultra is doing anything at all with all three fronts set to Large? I am not challenging you, just asking, since that is not typical.

My own interests sound somewhat similar to yours. I have six full-range speakers, well situated in a large room, and I use just those six speakers, without a CC or subs, when I listen to music. Since the great majority of my music listening involves acoustic instruments, my speakers are more than capable of handling anything I listen to. But the fundamentals of most musical instruments don't go much under 50Hz, and even the low fundamentals don't go much under 30Hz (pipe organ being a notably rare exception). So full-range speakers work great for that.

HT, though, is a completely different ball game. A great deal of modern movie content, particularly action movies, is embedded with sub 40Hz content. And many movies have substantial content in the LFE channel that goes below 20Hz. This (and some hard core electronic music) is where subs are so valuable even for full-range speaker systems. When I switch from acoustic music to HT, I simply set all of my speakers to Small, with variable crossovers depending on the speaker. My CC is set to 90Hz, my smallest full-range speakers are set to 80Hz (one octave above their F3 point), my next largest are set to 60Hz (again, double their F3 point, and my largest speakers are set to 40Hz (ditto, doubling the F3 point). That protects my speakers from the LFE, gives me full use of my subs, particularly for the low frequency heavy lifting, and gives me excellent mid-bass support in the critical 50 to 100Hz range.

It was something along that line that I was suggesting earlier. Even with your two front speakers and your CC set to 40Hz, for instance, you would more than get the full benefit of those full-range speakers without over-taxing them for LFE. And you would be able to use your Ultra to support all of the speaker channels for 5.1 movies, even in the event that your AVR somehow allows it to operate with only the surround speakers set to Small. That might give you the best of both worlds. I know that you know what you like, but it's just something to think about, and perhaps to experiment with.

Regards,
Mike
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post #23864 of 26124 Old 05-15-2016, 09:45 AM
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Your response has piqued my curiosity. What kind of AVR do you have? Typically with Denon/Marantz AVR's, if you set your Front speakers and your CC to "Large" your subwoofer(s) will be completely disabled, even if you set your Surrounds to "Small". If you have your front three set to Large, you can go into your Audio Menu, and the subwoofer volume control should be grayed out, indicating that the subs are not operating. That has historically been the case, and I just verified it again on my Marantz 7008.
That's very strange. I've never had a receiver that did that, even 10 years ago, as it makes no sense whatsoever to do that IMO. My current receiver is a Marantz SR5010 and it doesn't do that.

Quote:
Your AVR may be an exception to that general rule, which is why I am curious about what you have, but typically the only way to have your cake and eat it too is LFE + Main, which often results in quite boomy bass. The FAQ has some good information on that.
My Marantz SR5010 is set with the front three as large.
The surrounds and top middle speakers are set as small.

I just checked the sub setting again, and it is set as LFE only, NOT LFE + Main.

Quote:
Are you absolutely sure that your Ultra is doing anything at all with all three fronts set to Large? I am not challenging you, just asking, since that is not typical.
Oh yes, definitely. The walls and couch were shaking when I was playing the Atmos track of The Fifth Element last night. BTW, it was Audyssey that set the sub levels and set my front three to large, but I could still change the sub levels if I wanted. It was not greyed out in the Audio section of the settings.

If my receiver disabled the sub when the front three were set to large, I'd consider this a serious software flaw, and return the receiver the next day.

Quote:
My own interests sound somewhat similar to yours. I have six full-range speakers, well situated in a large room, and I use just those six speakers, without a CC or subs, when I listen to music. Since the great majority of my music listening involves acoustic instruments, my speakers are more than capable of handling anything I listen to. But the fundamentals of most musical instruments don't go much under 50Hz, and even the low fundamentals don't go much under 30Hz (pipe organ being a notably rare exception). So full-range speakers work great for that.

HT, though, is a completely different ball game. A great deal of modern movie content, particularly action movies, is embedded with sub 40Hz content. And many movies have substantial content in the LFE channel that goes below 20Hz.
This is why IMO it makes zero sense for the receiver to disable the sub when the front three speakers are set to large. There is still going to be 0.1 LFE channel info present whether or not the front three are set to large. Disabling the sub would instantly kill the entire LFE channel obviously.

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post #23865 of 26124 Old 05-15-2016, 10:16 AM
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Here are pictures showing all my pertinent Marantz SR5010 settings, plus pictures of The Fifth Element's Atmos screen, and what the receiver says is the input signal and output audio. You'll see that the mains and centre are large, but the sub is still active (as seen on multiple screens), the sub output level can be changed, and the sub setting is LFE-only not LFE + mains.

As far as I'm concerned, a receiver design is simply broken if it disables the sub when the mains and centre are set to large. Luckily, none of my receivers which have had a sub attached have done that. This is like half a dozen different receivers. (The only one I can't confirm this with is my Denon AVR-S710W, because it has no attached sub.)

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post #23866 of 26124 Old 05-15-2016, 10:53 AM
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Here are pictures showing all my settings, plus pictures of my Atmos The Fifth Element screen, and what the receiver says is the input signal and output audio.

As far as I'm concerned, a receiver design is simply broken if it disables the sub when the mains and centre are set to large. Luckily, none of my receivers which have had a sub attached have done that. (The only one I can't confirm this with is my Denon AVR-S710W, because it has no attached sub.)

Thanks for the visual confirmations, although I believed you in your last post. Without debating the merits of the decision, I am sure that it was a deliberate design decision in earlier Denon/Marantz models. I don't know when that design philosophy changed. Perhaps it reflects a new interest among consumers in having full-range speakers in addition to subs. I understand your point of view on the subject. My own viewpoint is that regardless of available settings, even the best full-range speakers can't handle HT bass as well as high quality subs, such as the Ultra.

In order to qualify as a full-range speaker, Audyssey has to detect that the speaker is down 3db at some frequency under 40Hz. Presumably, an F3 point of about 38Hz would meet the Audyssey/AVR criterion of full-range, and the AVR would automatically set the speaker to "Large". That is an automated process not an endorsement of the speaker. It is a very rare speaker indeed that will go under 30Hz (I know. I have a pair that will.) By comparison, your Ultra has a quasi-anechoic response of 14Hz, with the 16Hz port tune setting. In-room, it is possible that the F3 point is 10 or 11Hz. And there are 3600 peak watts on tap to help the sub get to those frequencies.

Running speakers that are able to go down to even 25Hz, much less 30Hz, much less 35 or 38Hz (which is all that's required for a "Large" setting) as "Small" with a crossover, is simply good practice, IMO, to protect your speakers, and to get maximum sub performance across all channels. (It's not only the LFE channel in 5.1 movies that has very low bass content encoded.) A "Small" setting with a 40Hz, or even a 60Hz crossover, probably wouldn't make a very audible difference, but it might help to protect your speakers, particularly if they happen to be ported. As long as your master volume isn't too high, you may be alright anyway, though. I just wanted to do a more thorough job of explaining the reasoning behind the more common practice of setting crossovers.
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post #23867 of 26124 Old 05-15-2016, 11:49 AM
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Thanks for the visual confirmations, although I believed you in your last post. Without debating the merits of the decision, I am sure that it was a deliberate design decision in earlier Denon/Marantz models.
I never even knew that was an issue, so I didn't bother looking into it when I bought my Marantz. The only issue I remember was way back the lower end receivers had only one LFE crossover point at 80 Hz which couldn't be changed.

BTW, my Marantz SR5010 is a 2015 model. Your Marantz 7008 is a 2013 model. So I guess the change is recent. Perhaps the change happened in 2014 when Atmos was added to the SR7009? And then in 2015 the entire Marantz SR line got Atmos.

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I don't know when that design philosophy changed. Perhaps it reflects a new interest among consumers in having full-range speakers in addition to subs. I understand your point of view on the subject. My own viewpoint is that regardless of available settings, even the best full-range speakers can't handle HT bass as well as high quality subs, such as the Ultra.
I've set my front speakers to full range with a sub since the early 2000s, so like 15 years. (My first sub was a passive Paradigm, then shortly afterwards a sealed lower end active Energy sub, but then I upgraded to an SVS PC-1000 for more volume.)

Remember, the 0.1 LFE channel has been around since the 90s, since even before DVD.

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In order to qualify as a full-range speaker, Audyssey has to detect that the speaker is down 3db at some frequency under 40Hz. Presumably, an F3 point of about 38Hz would meet the Audyssey/AVR criterion of full-range, and the AVR would automatically set the speaker to "Large". That is an automated process not an endorsement of the speaker. It is a very rare speaker indeed that will go under 30Hz (I know. I have a pair that will.) By comparison, your Ultra has a quasi-anechoic response of 14Hz, with the 16Hz port tune setting. In-room, it is possible that the F3 point is 10 or 11Hz. And there are 3600 peak watts on tap to help the sub get to those frequencies.
I'm sure these Paradigm Studio 60 v2 front speakers do not have much output below 30 Hz, but they do have some output below 40 Hz as Audyssey indicates. Their paper specs indicate they are -2 dB down to 42 Hz quasi-anechoic, or 30 Hz DIN. So for these speakers I ideally would not want to use a 40 Hz crossover. 30 Hz maybe, but not 40.

For my Paradigm Studio CC v2 centre channel speaker the bass extension is much less, such that it is -2 dB down to 70 Hz quasi-anechoic, or 42 Hz DIN. So yeah I guess it could make sense just set that centre as small with a crossover of 40 Hz, but honestly I just as happy without that added bass. I get enough room shaking bass as it is with the LFE channel alone.

I'm curious what Audyssey measures for the output below 40 Hz though for that centre channel, cuz clearly it thinks it's "large".

BTW, the first time I ran Audyssey, it was without the sub. Why? Cuz I didn't know that the fuse had blown, and I figured the lack of the sub was just because Audyssey would run it after all the other speakers. The interesting part is it configured my left/right surrounds as "large" too, which surprised me, since they're bookshelf speakers. My height speakers were configured as "small" though without the sub. The surrounds are bigger bookshelfs than my height speakers though.

Heights are Paradigm Atom v2, which is rated at -2 dB at 70 Hz, or 55 Hz DIN.
Surrounds are Paradigm Titan v1 (I think), which is rated at -2 dB at 75 Hz, and also 55 Hz DIN, despite being physically bigger speakers than the Atoms.

However, in casual listening I felt the Titans had a slightly "fuller" sound than the Atoms, even though it doesn't compare at all to my Studio 60s.

When I got the fuse of the SVS PB13-Ultra replaced and re-ran Audyssey, not surprisingly it put both the Titans and Atoms to "small". I don't know if this is because the sub was added, or if it was because the Titan's bass response was very borderline and it would flip flop between "small" and "large" depending on the phase of the moon.

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Running speakers that are able to go down to even 25Hz, much less 30Hz, much less 35 or 38Hz (which is all that's required for a "Large" setting) as "Small" with a crossover, is simply good practice, IMO, to protect your speakers, and to get maximum sub performance across all channels. (It's not only the LFE channel in 5.1 movies that has very low bass content encoded.) A "Small" setting with a 40Hz, or even a 60Hz crossover, probably wouldn't make a very audible difference, but it might help to protect your speakers, particularly if they happen to be ported. As long as your master volume isn't too high, you may be alright anyway, though. I just wanted to do a more thorough job of explaining the reasoning behind the more common practice of setting crossovers.
Yeah, I'm not concerned about protecting these speakers. I've been running them this way for over a decade. They are spec'd to be able to handle a maximum input power of 150 Watts for the mains and 130 Watts for the centre, which is way more than my receivers can output anyway in multichannel mode. I'm not using discrete power amps, just AV receivers.
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post #23868 of 26124 Old 05-15-2016, 06:16 PM
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mthomas47:

Assuming I understand jdsmoothie's post, the deactivation of the sub when the mains are set to large should only happen if the receiver is being fed a 2.0 signal.

Try setting your front speakers to large when your system is receiving a 7.1 signal. In that case, your sub should still be active.
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post #23869 of 26124 Old 05-15-2016, 07:02 PM
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Pioneer receivers allow you to set fronts center and anything else you want to large and still have sub working.
Older and newer Pioneer receivers allow that. I noticed on this thread Pioneer is not mentioned much its usually SVS
paired with Denon or Marantz once in awhile.

Ive got some stuff
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post #23870 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 09:45 AM
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Has anyone gone from a Pioneer Elite(before 90 series) to a Denon/Marantz or Onkyo/Integra AVR/preamp? Would you say it was worth it to get Audessey?

Theater Setup: 5.2.5 (10.1 Auro3D) / ~3100 cu.ft. / Vaulted Ceiling
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post #23871 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
mthomas47:

Assuming I understand jdsmoothie's post, the deactivation of the sub when the mains are set to large should only happen if the receiver is being fed a 2.0 signal.

Try setting your front speakers to large when your system is receiving a 7.1 signal. In that case, your sub should still be active.
@mthomas47 has offered you some great advice, and he is completely correct...with your current configuration, the only thing being fed to your sub are the frequencies below the crossovers on your surround channels and the LFE channel. None of the bass is being re-directed from your mains/CC. You can confirm this by listening to any 2 channel source and noting that your sub is quite silent.

If you like it that way, that is perfectly fine...just realize you are listening to (maybe substantially) increased distortion from your mains/CC below ~40hz at high MV settings.

Why not give bass management (small) a shot? It's free and can't hurt anything.



Also, AFAIK this is exactly how every single modern AVR works in regards to bass management. If you set all your speakers to large, what exactly would the AVR send to the sub (besides the LFE channel)?? If I had an AVR that output to the sub after I had set all speakers to large (besides the LFE channel), I would consider that AVR defective.

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post #23872 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Also,If you set all your speakers to large, what exactly would the AVR send to the sub (besides the LFE channel)??
Frequencies below the xover.
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post #23873 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
@mthomas47 has offered you some great advice, and he is completely correct...with your current configuration, the only thing being fed to your sub are the frequencies below the crossovers on your surround channels and the LFE channel. None of the bass is being re-directed from your mains/CC. You can confirm this by listening to any 2 channel source and noting that your sub is quite silent.

If you like it that way, that is perfectly fine...just realize you are listening to (maybe substantially) increased distortion from your mains/CC below ~40hz at high MV settings.
Yes I know. I've always preferred it this way. Especially for music but for HT as well. However, I don't blast my volumes as high as a lot of people here seem to.

Also, I notice a lot of people here add +3 or even +9 to their sub when configuring Audyssey. That seems too much to me. OK +3 is OK, but not +9.

So perhaps my listening volumes mitigate the potential for distortion, since I don't run as loud. I didn't buy my PB13-Ultra for bass volume in the LFE. I bought it for bass clarity. It's simply a way cleaner sounding sub than the (1st gen) PC-1000.

However, I've considered changing to a sealed sub to get even cleaner bass, even though it doesn't extend as low, again at only moderate volumes. However, luckily with the PB13-Ultra you can adjust by plugging up the ports to get a sort of sealed sub effect.

Quote:
Why not give bass management (small) a shot? It's free and can't hurt anything.
Every time I've tried bass management (and I've tried setting the fronts as smalls many times with different receivers), I've preferred running the mains as large. Yes it does decrease bass response, but IMO it's actually a cleaner sound with my setup.

However, I haven't tried with this particular Marantz, so yeah, maybe it's time to give it another shot.

Quote:
Also, AFAIK this is exactly how every single modern AVR works in regards to bass management. If you set all your speakers to large, what exactly would the AVR send to the sub (besides the LFE channel)?? If I had an AVR that output to the sub after I had set all speakers to large (besides the LFE channel), I would consider that AVR defective.
He said when he set his fronts to large, it deactivates the sub. That makes no sense, because you would still have the bass from the surrounds, and as you mentioned, you would still have the LFE channel as well.

Furthermore, I asked jdsmoothie, and if I understand his post correctly, thomas' statement is not even correct for his SR7008. This is only true when feeding the receiver a 2.0 signal. Yes, in that case the sub will be inactive if the mains are set as large, but if you're feeding the receiver a 5.1 channel, the sub will not be deactivated if the fronts are set as large. In fact, even if you set the surrounds as large, the sub would still be active because of the 0.1 LFE channel.

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post #23874 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Frequencies below the xover.
Ummm...what crossover?? In the case of Bugs, yes he is getting bass to the sub from below the crossover on his surrounds, but that it it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
Yes I know. I've always preferred it this way. Especially for music but for HT as well. However, I don't blast my volumes as high as a lot of people here seem to.
How high are we talking here?


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Also, I notice a lot of people here add +3 or even +9 to their bass when configuring Audyssey. That seems too much to me. OK +3 is OK, but not +9.
I run mine +14dB.

Keep in mind though, I have a VERY large room.


Quote:
So perhaps my listening volumes mitigate the potential for distortion, since I don't run as loud.
You will probably never know without measuring (REW, Omnimic).


Quote:
Every time I've tried bass management (and I've tried setting the fronts as smalls many times with different receivers), I've preferred running the mains as large. Yes it does decrease bass response, but IMO it's actually a cleaner sound with my setup.

However, I haven't tried with this particular Marantz, so yeah, maybe it's time to give it another shot.
Try the mains/CC set to small and then increase the sub trim...you may just have a revelation.


Quote:
He said when he set his fronts to large, it deactivates the sub. That makes no sense, because you would still have the bass from the surrounds, and as you mentioned, you would still have the LFE channel as well.

Furthermore, I asked jdsmoothie, and if I understand his post correctly, the statement is not even correct with the SR7008. This is only true when feeding the receiver a 2.0 signal. Yes, in that case the sub will be inactive if the mains are set as large, but if feeding a 5.1 channel, the sub will not be deactivated if the fronts are set as large.
Yes, Mike mis-spoke...but, the vast majority of bass frequencies (from mains/CC) are not being routed to your sub with surround content, and absolutely nothing with 2 channel sources.
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post #23875 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 04:04 PM
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To be honest, with only 2 channel sources, I don't think I have ever really cared about using the sub. I'd be perfectly happy having no sub at all if I had no 5.1 or 7.1 or 5.1.2 tracks.

But I'll eventually give the setting fronts as small thing another try when I have some time, considering it's a new receiver, and one with Atmos, something I've never had before.

Note though, I have XT, not XT32, so perhaps that might make a difference for some of you. I'm told the EQ for XT32 is smoother and better suited for bass than XT is.
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post #23876 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
To be honest, with only 2 channel sources, I don't think I have ever really cared about using the sub. I'd be perfectly happy having no sub at all if I had no 5.1 or 7.1 or 5.1.2 tracks.
You never listen to music on your system? Not unusual if you don't, just asking.


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But I'll eventually give the setting fronts as small thing another try when I have some time, considering it's a new receiver, and one with Atmos, something I've never had before.
Let us know what you think!


Quote:
Note though, I have XT, not XT32, so perhaps that might make a difference for some of you. I'm told the EQ for XT32 is smoother and better suited for bass than XT is.
XT is not as good as XT32, but it's really no slouch.
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post #23877 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
To be honest, with only 2 channel sources, I don't think I have ever really cared about using the sub. I'd be perfectly happy having no sub at all if I had no 5.1 or 7.1 or 5.1.2 tracks.

But I'll eventually give the setting fronts as small thing another try when I have some time, considering it's a new receiver, and one with Atmos, something I've never had before.

Note though, I have XT, not XT32, so perhaps that might make a difference for some of you. I'm told the EQ for XT32 is smoother and better suited for bass than XT is.
One has to consider what sending a speaker set to Large entails. Basically, the speaker will be getting all frequencies sent to it, from 20Hz-20KHz. One of the reasons setting speakers to small is that it takes a LOT of JUICE to play a low freq note. There lies the problem. AVR amps, some, will run out of gas, aka distort, the lower freqs because of the limits of the amps' outputs. Cut off the lower freqs (my 15" mains still play freqs down to 40Hz, xo set to 80Hz) and let the sub, which is built to take the load, take the load.
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post #23878 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Ummm...what crossover?? In the case of Bugs, yes he is getting bass to the sub from below the crossover on his surrounds, but that it

Yes, Mike mis-spoke...but, the vast majority of bass frequencies (from mains/CC) are not being routed to your sub with surround content, and absolutely nothing with 2 channel sources.
Dont know about Bugs but most receivers have a setting to send a full range signal to mains and also have the sub play everything below the crossover.
LFE+Main or Extra Bass it is usually called.
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post #23879 of 26124 Old 05-16-2016, 09:44 PM
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Did some testing with The Fifth Element Atmos.

After much fiddling, I have set my Paradigm Studio CC v2 centre to small. However I have kept my Paradigm Studio 60 v2 mains on large. It seemed the cleanest set this way. With the mains set to small there was indeed a bit more rumbling bass but overall the sound seemed less tight.

I have also kept the sub at the Audyssey setting although a couple or three dB louder was fine. So sub is currently +0. It is an SVS PB13-Ultra set on the Sledge amp to -10 and configured by Audyssey to another -11 in my receiver. (Other speakers are mostly in the -5 range.) The sub has one of its three ports plugged for I believe a 15 Hz tune. (Audyssey was configured with the sub ported this way.) I may try all three ports plugged for the sealed tune at some point though.

For the centre dialogue I have also kept it at +0 and just increased the overall volume when needed. With this I had room shaking LFE in The Fifth Element played at about -18 dB volume. However when my in-laws come over perhaps I will augment the dialogue by 3 dB so that the overall volume can be decreased by about the same amount.

After watching a few scenes like this from The Fifth Element, I then put on Gravity Atmos. The dialogue seemed quieter so I increased the overall volume to about -13 to -15 dB and with this the LFE was shaking everything in the room in some scenes. I had to remove some centrepieces (ceramic) because they were rattling. If the in-laws watch this movie, I will definitely augment the dialogue. I don't think they'd like this much room shaking.

---

For 2-channel audio without a sub I was talking both movies and music. For music I just prefer not using a sub and for 2.0 channel movies we are usually talking about older movies without a lot of uber low frequencies so the sub is often superfluous IMO.

However, usually for music I just use my Sennheiser HD598 headphones.
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post #23880 of 26124 Old 05-17-2016, 03:35 AM
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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread.

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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post


However, I've considered changing to a sealed sub to get even cleaner bass, even though it doesn't extend as low, again at only moderate volumes. .

This would not work out well since ported subs have lower distortion down to port tune than sealed subs. And any ringing around a 15-20 Hz port tune won't affect 40 Hz+ music.


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