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post #24541 of 24560 Unread Yesterday, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Stealth3si View Post
thanks, makes sense.

what is the size of your room? I am happy with my single dual setup but I am curious if running duals would be overkill for me in a 10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H room.
My room is about 2700 Ft^3. I could easily get by with two, but actually also have a pair of PB12-NSD's in the room, as well. I rarely use them, however. For your very small room one should be plenty.
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post #24542 of 24560 Unread Yesterday, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
Thanks for the replies, so rather than 1 or 2x SB13U mthomas you would recommend a single PB13?
Any chance you can do 2 PC-13 Ultra's? The cost of the cylinders is a little less, plus you'll get a discount buying two at once. It won't quite equal the price of the dual SB13's but should get you pretty close.
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post #24543 of 24560 Unread Yesterday, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
I mean in terms of two subs as opposed to one would balance the sound better.
I think that two subs are nearly always better than one in terms of creating a smoother frequency response. And I also like the idea of having more bass envelopment, which multiple subs can provide. But in terms of sheer output, it would take about four SB13's to equal one PB13 at the frequency range from 25Hz down to about 15Hz. And the sub-35Hz range was the range you specifically said you wanted to concentrate on. http://www.data-bass.com/systems

So, in your position, I would buy a PB13, and then add a second one whenever it was desirable or financially convenient to do so. The main reason that sheer output is so important at lower frequencies is because our hearing is so much less sensitive there. So, it takes more SPL at low frequencies to create both the sound and feel that we are looking for with 5.1 movies. Allen's suggestion to go with two PC13's would also be perfectly viable, if that's an option.
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Thanks mthomas, when i play music at higher than 35hz would you advise using my main speakers MA Plat200 or using/blocking the port/ports to make the PB13U sealed,
would this also give PB13U a similar performance to 1 or two SB13U's?

Or should i just turn the sub/subs off for music?
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Unhappy A little worried about SVS

Hello all,
I just received my pb-2000 yesterday and I have a few concerns;
1) The PB-2000 is replacing a BIC PL-200 that is working great but I thought it would be an upgrade to go with the SVS and I am just not getting the output level that I was with the pl-200. Now dont get me wrong I can tell that the SVS is reaching a little deeper but its just not as loud as the pl-200.

I have heard that subs tend to need so time to really break in so am i just being overly concerned? The sub is turned up half way on the volume on the back and the receiver is set exactly where it was with the old sub (even after running my auto set up), phase set to 0degrees, and placement of the sub is the exact same place as it was with the old sub.

Thoughts would be welcome and thanks ahead of time.

Last edited by miked053; Today at 07:05 AM.
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post #24546 of 24560 Unread Today, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
Thanks mthomas, when i play music at higher than 35hz would you advise using my main speakers MA Plat200 or using/blocking the port/ports to make the PB13U sealed,
would this also give PB13U a similar performance to 1 or two SB13U's?

Or should i just turn the sub/subs off for music?
I would leave the sub running either in the 20hz or 15hz tune. I would also leave them on during music, they'll definitely help whatever the situation. Ported subs can handle music just fine, and I think you will enjoy the extra output the ported Ultra provides. Again, generally speaking, there is no difference between ported and sealed subs for music.

Personally I run my subs with one port plugged. This gives me the lower port tune as well as the extra output you get from a ported sub. It has always seemed like the best compromise for my theater. This also is one of the real advantages of the ported Ultra, unless you're absolutely convinced that sealed is what you want, the variable tuning gives you a lot of flexibility.
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Thanks Allen

Never really had a decent sub, my preference is 70/30 movies, and after much reading SVS/various forums the SB13u is fantastic for music and not to shabby with movies either. Just assumed(rightly or wrongly) that the PB13U bunged might improve its performance similar to SB13U, sort of best of both worlds, ported and sealed in one box.

I am currently reading this thread, from about April onwards currently at 23911, it's quite a learning curve and time consuming. Leaning towards buying PB13U at the moment later in the week.
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post #24548 of 24560 Unread Today, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
Thanks mthomas, when i play music at higher than 35hz would you advise using my main speakers MA Plat200 or using/blocking the port/ports to make the PB13U sealed,
would this also give PB13U a similar performance to 1 or two SB13U's?

Or should i just turn the sub/subs off for music?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
I would leave the sub running either in the 20hz or 15hz tune. I would also leave them on during music, they'll definitely help whatever the situation. Ported subs can handle music just fine, and I think you will enjoy the extra output the ported Ultra provides. Again, generally speaking, there is no difference between ported and sealed subs for music.

Personally I run my subs with one port plugged. This gives me the lower port tune as well as the extra output you get from a ported sub. It has always seemed like the best compromise for my theater. This also is one of the real advantages of the ported Ultra, unless you're absolutely convinced that sealed is what you want, the variable tuning gives you a lot of flexibility.
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
Thanks Allen

Never really had a decent sub, my preference is 70/30 movies, and after much reading SVS/various forums the SB13u is fantastic for music and not to shabby with movies either. Just assumed(rightly or wrongly) that the PB13U bunged might improve its performance similar to SB13U, sort of best of both worlds, ported and sealed in one box.

I am currently reading this thread, from about April onwards currently at 23911, it's quite a learning curve and time consuming. Leaning towards buying PB13U at the moment later in the week.

One of the nice things about this hobby is that we never stop learning something new. And I see that even with the real audio professionals on the forum. I would start with the PB13 in the 15Hz port tune mode (one port plugged). That is really where the PB13 was designed to excell, and that is where it will give you the most versatile and dynamic performance. And frankly, switching back and forth between ported and sealed, going from movies to music, would be a pain. I agree with Allen that you will get excellent performance for music with your sub(s) in ported mode.

As for whether you will prefer to run your sub with music, since you already have pretty competent main speakers, that is purely a matter of personal preference. Most people do prefer to bass manage their speakers all the time, and run their subs all the time. Other people switch back and forth sometimes, depending on what they are listening to. With speakers that go down to about 35Hz, I would probably experiment with both an 80Hz crossover and a 60Hz crossover.

Unless you are listening to a lot of bass-heavy synthesized music, the following rule-of-thumb applies mostly to 5.1 movies. But it's generally a good policy to set speaker crossovers about an octave higher than their F3 point, and definitely at least a half octave higher. So, if your speakers go down to about 30-35Hz in-room, it would be a good idea to set at least a 60Hz crossover to protect them during explosions and the like, and to make the subs do the really heavy lifting. (So, 2.0 or 1.5 times the frequency where the speaker is down by 3db.) At the same time, a 60Hz crossover can sometimes augment the mid-bass chest punch (~50Hz to 100Hz) a little better than an 80Hz crossover. So, you can just experiment to find out what works best for your individual speakers and room. I hope you don't mind that additional advice regarding crossovers.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24549 of 24560 Unread Today, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by miked053 View Post
Hello all,
I just received my pb-2000 yesterday and I have a few concerns;
1) The PB-2000 is replacing a BIC PL-200 that is working great but I thought it would be an upgrade to go with the SVS and I am just not getting the output level that I was with the pl-200. Now dont get me wrong I can tell that the SVS is reaching a little deeper but its just not as loud as the pl-200.

I have heard that subs tend to need so time to really break in so am i just being overly concerned? The sub is turned up half way on the volume on the back and the receiver is set exactly where it was with the old sub (even after running my auto set up), phase set to 0degrees, and placement of the sub is the exact same place as it was with the old sub.

Thoughts would be welcome and thanks ahead of time.
I had the same problem when I went from a Klipsch RW12D to the SB13. At first I thought the SB was kinda soft. Your use to the muddy bass of the BIC as I was with the Klipsch. The SVS's are really smooth and detailed. I suggest turning the volume on the sub to around 1-2 o'clock. Rerun calibration. Watch some movies with heavy bass that your accustomed too. Give it some time.
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Originally Posted by miked053 View Post
Hello all,
I just received my pb-2000 yesterday and I have a few concerns;
1) The PB-2000 is replacing a BIC PL-200 that is working great but I thought it would be an upgrade to go with the SVS and I am just not getting the output level that I was with the pl-200. Now dont get me wrong I can tell that the SVS is reaching a little deeper but its just not as loud as the pl-200.

I have heard that subs tend to need so time to really break in so am i just being overly concerned? The sub is turned up half way on the volume on the back and the receiver is set exactly where it was with the old sub (even after running my auto set up), phase set to 0degrees, and placement of the sub is the exact same place as it was with the old sub.

Thoughts would be welcome and thanks ahead of time.
Hi,

I agree with the advice that cchunter gave you. It's not a break-in issue. It's probably mostly a calibration issue, combined with hearing less distortion (which can make bass sound louder). When you turn up your gain knob a little, you will be trying to get the trim level in the AVR to a good negative number, such as -6 or -8, or even a little lower, as long as you aren't right on the trim limit. (That's +/- 12 on Denon/Marantz and +/- 10? on Yamaha.) Then, post-calibration, just increase your trim level by what ever amount you need to get the bass you want. But, try to stay below 0.0 in trim level in the AVR.

Let us know how that works.

Regards,
Mike
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Thanks again,

Can anyone explain why the max output on SVS website are much lower than data-bass figures. There is below the graphs an asterisk,

* Frequency response graph does not denote maximum output capability

Scroll down to tech info
http://www.svsound.com/products/pb13-ultra

http://www.data-bass.com/systems
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Been on chat online at SVS, guy could not explain why, said he would need to speak to his manager tomorrow.
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
Thanks again,

Can anyone explain why the max output on SVS website are much lower than data-bass figures. There is below the graphs an asterisk,

* Frequency response graph does not denote maximum output capability

Scroll down to tech info
http://www.svsound.com/products/pb13-ultra

http://www.data-bass.com/systems
You are welcome! The SVS graphs are simply comparing the frequency response characteristics at an average SPL of about 90db. So, there is no attempt to push the sub to its limits in any of the modes, but simply to compare the general shape or slope of those modes. The Data-Bass tests are conducted using similar testing parameters for any sub tests, and an attempt is made to push the tested subs to their limits, not only to find out where the drop in response occurs, but also to determine how much distortion occurs, as well. The SVS graphs just give you a general idea of how the various modes of a PB13 compare to each other. The Data-Bass tests are considered the gold standard for comparing actual apples-to-apples sub performance of different models and makes of sub.
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I decided to add something to an earlier post regarding the relative difficulty of going back-and-forth between sealed mode and ported mode for different types of listening, such as music and movies.

I have always wondered how much changing modes would affect an Audyssey calibration. To the extent that Audyssey is providing meaningful EQ in the modal region below about 120Hz, I believe that changing modes would pretty well invalidate that EQ. In some parts of the sub range, the frequency response between a PB13 in sealed mode, and a PB13 in 15Hz port mode is fairly similar. But in other places it is very different, and that is even before the room gets a hold of the sub and exerts its own influences. So, I would be very reluctant to change modes, without also changing calibrations, particularly if the modes in question were going from ported to sealed, or vice versa.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I agree with the advice that cchunter gave you. It's not a break-in issue. It's probably mostly a calibration issue, combined with hearing less distortion (which can make bass sound louder). When you turn up your gain knob a little, you will be trying to get the trim level in the AVR to a good negative number, such as -6 or -8, or even a little lower, as long as you aren't right on the trim limit. (That's +/- 12 on Denon/Marantz and +/- 10? on Yamaha.) Then, post-calibration, just increase your trim level by what ever amount you need to get the bass you want. But, try to stay below 0.0 in trim level in the AVR.

Let us know how that works.

Regards,
Mike
Mike I have the Onkyo TX-NR646 and right now when I go into the "Level Calibration" menu under the speaker settings the sub is set at +3 (I think the range is -15db to +12db). With the room size being 15x18x10 and open to a hallway on one side and the dinnig room on another (both sides fully open) I cant imagine the level being set that low no mater how much I turn up the gain on the sub. Am I missing something here? I am sure you guys are correct but the SVS just seems so much more subdued even with music with strong bass tracks I just dont feel the punch.

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Thanks again, clears that up, shame the SVS guy did no Know.
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Mike I have the Onkyo TX-NR646 and right now when I go into the "Level Calibration" menu under the speaker settings the sub is set at +3 (I think the range is -15db to +12db). With the room size being 15x18x10 and open to a hallway on one side and the dinnig room on another (both sides fully open) I cant imagine the level being set that low no mater how much I turn up the gain on the sub. Am I missing something here? I am sure you guys are correct but the SVS just seems so much more subdued even with music with strong bass tracks I just dont feel the punch.
Hi Mike,

I don't know. It may be that the sub is not in a very good spot, although I remember you said that's where you had your old one. Doing a sub crawl to verify that the sub is in the right place might help. Sometimes moving a sub by only a few inches can make a difference.

But the gain control could be a factor too. The gain control increases exponentially. So you can have it at 10:00, and it barely registers any volume at all, and you barely move it to 12:00, and you are suddenly much louder. If you are sure that your sub is in the best spot, re-calibrate with a higher gain. Again, your goal here would be to get a trim level that was solidly negative. Why don't you try to shoot for about -10, or even lower? Then post-calibration, with your sub trim at -10, you could add 10db to 0.0. That would make the sub literally twice as loud, not counting any increases in master volume. Once you get the sub dialed in properly, you should feel a lot more punch than you do now.

Regards,
Mike
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Hi Mike,

I don't know. It may be that the sub is not in a very good spot, although I remember you said that's where you had your old one. Doing a sub crawl to verify that the sub is in the right place might help. Sometimes moving a sub by only a few inches can make a difference.

But the gain control could be a factor too. The gain control increases exponentially. So you can have it at 10:00, and it barely registers any volume at all, and you barely move it to 12:00, and you are suddenly much louder. If you are sure that your sub is in the best spot, re-calibrate with a higher gain. Again, your goal here would be to get a trim level that was solidly negative. Why don't you try to shoot for about -10, or even lower? Then post-calibration, with your sub trim at -10, you could add 10db to 0.0. That would make the sub literally twice as loud, not counting any increases in master volume. Once you get the sub dialed in properly, you should feel a lot more punch than you do now.

Regards,
Mike
As far as placement goes it is in the only corner of the room and really the only place I can put it. Even though I know it might not be the "perfect" place its the only real option and is were it sounded best when I did the crawl with the old sub. The placement I had the BIC in originally (towards the middle of the wall near the end of the entertainment center) sounded a lot like the svs does now and got louder when it was moved to the corner maybe the opposite is true now?

Ok just for clarifacation I should go home and set the volume on the back of the sub to about the 1-2pm area, then go in and set the calibration level to -10, then run auto eq, then go in and adjust the calibration level again if needed?

Also, when you start the auto eq process with onkyo it plays a test tone through the sub and says to make sure you can hear it. When I did this yesterday it was a very quiet pink noise tone so turning up the gain before running the eq might help like you said.

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As far as placement goes it is in the only corner of the room and really the only place I can put it. Even though I know it might not be the "perfect" place its the only real option and is were it sounded best when I did the crawl with the old sub. The placement I had the BIC in originally (towards the middle of the wall near the end of the entertainment center) sounded a lot like the svs does now and got louder when it was moved to the corner maybe the opposite is true now?

Ok just for clarifacation I should go home and set the volume on the back of the sub to about the 1-2pm area, then go in and set the calibration level to -10, then run auto eq, then go in and adjust the calibration level again if needed?

Also, when you start the auto eq process with onkyo it plays a test tone through the sub and says to make sure you can hear it. When I did this yesterday it was a very quiet pink noise tone so turning up the gain before running the eq might help like you said.

I think that turning up the gain will help, but don't worry about setting the trim level manually prior to the calibration. Your Auto EQ will ignore prior settings, and will set your trim level automatically, based on what the microphone "hears" at the MLP. If the pink noise sounded soft to you, then it sounded soft to the microphone too, and that's why it set the trim at +3. There is some trial-and-error involved to get the trim level where you want it, so you may have to spend a few minutes on this, adjusting the gain up and down, before you get your Onkyo to calibrate the trim level to about -10, or so. That means that you may have to run Auto EQ more than once. But once you do get there, you will be able to turn up your sub volume, in your Onkyo, any time you want to get the effect that you want.

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Originally Posted by miked053 View Post
Hello all,
I just received my pb-2000 yesterday and I have a few concerns;
1) The PB-2000 is replacing a BIC PL-200 that is working great but I thought it would be an upgrade to go with the SVS and I am just not getting the output level that I was with the pl-200. Now dont get me wrong I can tell that the SVS is reaching a little deeper but its just not as loud as the pl-200.

I have heard that subs tend to need so time to really break in so am i just being overly concerned? The sub is turned up half way on the volume on the back and the receiver is set exactly where it was with the old sub (even after running my auto set up), phase set to 0degrees, and placement of the sub is the exact same place as it was with the old sub.

Thoughts would be welcome and thanks ahead of time.
Cheaper subs have a "mid-bass hump" in their response. This makes the sub louder in this range than it really should be. The PL-200 has a hump around 40-50Hz, then it slopes off below that. A good quality sub will have a more accurate, linear response. SVS subs have a very linear response. A lot of bass, especially in music, is in the 40-80Hz range. You have grown accustomed to the PL-200, which isn't an accurate sub. Take a look at the basic response graph for the PL-200. Looks like a mountain with a peak. http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=47&mset=45
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