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post #24571 of 25138 Old 08-31-2016, 06:48 PM
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Any SVS fan (in the lower 48 United States) who wants a free SVS t-shirt, just let me know and I'll send it to you. It's size XL. I already have one and don't need another. These come free now with SVS purchase.
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post #24572 of 25138 Old 08-31-2016, 08:27 PM
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Any SVS fan (in the lower 48 United States) who wants a free SVS t-shirt, just let me know and I'll send it to you. It's size XL. I already have one and don't need another. These come free now with SVS purchase.
Thanks for the offer.
Did you get your PC-12 NSD from outlet?
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post #24573 of 25138 Old 09-01-2016, 01:50 AM
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Thanks for the offer.
Did you get your PC-12 NSD from outlet?
It did arrive Wednesday. I'm assuming it was the one you had. I did manually test the voice coil and didn't notice any rubbing or grating at all. Didn't have a chance to test it on deep bass material, but did run some bass heavy music with it for a bit and didn't notice any problems.
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post #24574 of 25138 Old 09-01-2016, 05:57 AM
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It did arrive Wednesday. I'm assuming it was the one you had. I did manually test the voice coil and didn't notice any rubbing or grating at all. Didn't have a chance to test it on deep bass material, but did run some bass heavy music with it for a bit and didn't notice any problems.
Good. Looks like they did replace the river.
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post #24575 of 25138 Old 09-01-2016, 07:31 PM
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Nothing like an outlet sale to force me to rethink everything I thought I'd figured out . . . ha!

Our living room is 20x13, so a touch over 2000 cubic feet. Viewing and sitting distance is the 20 foot side . . . and about 2/3rds of that right side wall is open to the rest of the house. Had myself convinced I don't listen loud like I used to . . . mostly music and the kids movies, so just get an SB-1000. Which morphed into well, maybe a PB-2000 . . . which turned into eh, maybe dual SB-1000. Which turned into . . . you know, just get two SB-2000s and be done with it. And now there's the PB12-Plus in the outlet for $999, less than dual new SB-2000s . . . and of course a boat load of SB13-Ultras in the outlet for $1199 . . . again, cheaper than two new SB2000s. And the realization that I'd be more than willing to crank it louder for good measure . . . Blu-rays, SACDs . . . I used to rock out, I swear.

So back to the drawing board. Not sure if I am venting, thinking out loud, or looking for suggestions, hahaha! In case it's the latter . . . starting to think having a single Ultra at that price is too hard to pass up . . . although knowing I could get some benefit with the dual setup. But I am caught with placement . . . so if I did duals, it would be between the mains and that's the only spot possible (picture attached for reference). JBL L-890s currently up front, with an LC2 center . . . and L-820s for rear speakers. Denon 4100 to power everything . . . which means dual outs, and XT32 is available to me if needed.
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post #24576 of 25138 Old 09-01-2016, 07:45 PM
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Nothing like an outlet sale to force me to rethink everything I thought I'd figured out . . . ha!

Our living room is 20x13, so a touch over 2000 cubic feet. Viewing and sitting distance is the 20 foot side . . . and about 2/3rds of that right side wall is open to the rest of the house. Had myself convinced I don't listen loud like I used to . . . mostly music and the kids movies, so just get an SB-1000. Which morphed into well, maybe a PB-2000 . . . which turned into eh, maybe dual SB-1000. Which turned into . . . you know, just get two SB-2000s and be done with it. And now there's the PB12-Plus in the outlet for $999, less than dual new SB-2000s . . . and of course a boat load of SB13-Ultras in the outlet for $1199 . . . again, cheaper than two new SB2000s. And the realization that I'd be more than willing to crank it louder for good measure . . . Blu-rays, SACDs . . . I used to rock out, I swear.

So back to the drawing board. Not sure if I am venting, thinking out loud, or looking for suggestions, hahaha! In case it's the latter . . . starting to think having a single Ultra at that price is too hard to pass up . . . although knowing I could get some benefit with the dual setup. But I am caught with placement . . . so if I did duals, it would be between the mains and that's the only spot possible (picture attached for reference). JBL L-890s currently up front, with an LC2 center . . . and L-820s for rear speakers. Denon 4100 to power everything . . . which means dual outs, and XT32 is available to me if needed.
SB13 Ultra. Nuff said. Also eliminates all the what ifs...I have one in my room which is 19x13. It does a very nice job. If I were in the basement and on concrete then I would probably go ported Ultras or DIY sealed 18's.
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post #24577 of 25138 Old 09-01-2016, 08:04 PM
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SB13 Ultra. Nuff said. Also eliminates all the what ifs...I have one in my room which is 19x13. It does a very nice job. If I were in the basement and on concrete then I would probably go ported Ultras or DIY sealed 18's.
So I'm not crazy for thinking that way then . . . thanks, I appreciate the input!
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post #24578 of 25138 Old 09-01-2016, 10:02 PM
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So I'm not crazy for thinking that way then . . . thanks, I appreciate the input!

If you are looking for someone to tell you that you're crazy to buy bigger subs, you have come to the wrong place!

That's a good looking room, and set-up. You know, if you ever did decide to go with duals, the wall to the right, near the outlet, would be a perfectly good place for another SB13. Opposing walls almost always work better for bass than a symmetrical arrangement, anyway.

Regards,
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post #24579 of 25138 Old 09-01-2016, 10:08 PM
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need help with ypao and my pc13-ultra, not getting that boom im used too
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post #24580 of 25138 Old 09-01-2016, 11:14 PM
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Hi Guys,

I picked up sb13 ultra and a pb13 ultra. I've been playing with the settings and to me, it seems like the sb13 sounds/feels better. My room size is about 14x20. I have tried to place the pb13 on each side of the front corners but it doesnt make a difference. I am thinking about returning the pb13 to get another sb13. Would dual sb13 ultra's out perform a single pb13 ultra?
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post #24581 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 04:36 AM
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need help with ypao and my pc13-ultra, not getting that boom im used too
Details?
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post #24582 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 06:27 AM
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Hi Guys,

I picked up sb13 ultra and a pb13 ultra. I've been playing with the settings and to me, it seems like the sb13 sounds/feels better. My room size is about 14x20. I have tried to place the pb13 on each side of the front corners but it doesnt make a difference. I am thinking about returning the pb13 to get another sb13. Would dual sb13 ultra's out perform a single pb13 ultra?
Hi. We just had a conversation about that just a few pages back ...the dual sb13U will outperform a single pb13u in lower than aprox. 15hz and higher than aprox.30hz but in between the pb will have more output...like i said then i will say it again that i would rather have a dual sb13u than a single pb 13u...and your space is just the place for dual sb13u ...now go for it and also you can try to seal the pb and it will be almost like dual sb13u...you can test it to hear how it sounds

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post #24583 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 06:44 AM
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Hi Guys,

I picked up sb13 ultra and a pb13 ultra. I've been playing with the settings and to me, it seems like the sb13 sounds/feels better. My room size is about 14x20. I have tried to place the pb13 on each side of the front corners but it doesnt make a difference. I am thinking about returning the pb13 to get another sb13. Would dual sb13 ultra's out perform a single pb13 ultra?

Hi,

The discussion to which tommaazz referred was a good one, and would probably be worth reading. There are a couple of things that I am curious about, though. Are you listening to the two subs at the same time, and are you using any sort of room correction to EQ them together? Also when you mention the potential locations for the PB, are you trying both subs in the same locations, one at a time, and have you done a sub crawl to pick the best location?

The single PB should be outperforming the single SB at all frequencies up to about 60Hz, although as tommaazz said, a pair of SB's can start to close that gap in about the 40 to 60Hz range. With one of each, the difference in sheer output from about 40Hz down should be profound. If it's not, then I would suspect that something is wonky with the PB positioning or set-up.

None of that means that you shouldn't, or won't, ultimately prefer a pair of SB's to a single PB. With your room size, and without knowing more about your listening habits and goals, the dual SB's might very well be the better option. But I would make sure that the listening comparison was allowing for a level playing field since you already have both subs there. If you can, give us a little more detail.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24584 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 07:18 AM
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I had the same problem when I went from a Klipsch RW12D to the SB13. At first I thought the SB was kinda soft. Your use to the muddy bass of the BIC as I was with the Klipsch. The SVS's are really smooth and detailed. I suggest turning the volume on the sub to around 1-2 o'clock. Rerun calibration. Watch some movies with heavy bass that your accustomed too. Give it some time.
Fwiw turning the sub gain up and rerunning calibration does nothing. Calibration still shoots for 75db no matter where the gain is set. It will simply keep setting the sub trim further negative the higher you turn the amp gain. You have to manually adjust the sub trim up post calibration if you want to run the sub hot.

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post #24585 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 08:18 AM
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Hi,

The discussion to which tommaazz referred was a good one, and would probably be worth reading. There are a couple of things that I am curious about, though. Are you listening to the two subs at the same time, and are you using any sort of room correction to EQ them together? Also when you mention the potential locations for the PB, are you trying both subs in the same locations, one at a time, and have you done a sub crawl to pick the best location?

The single PB should be outperforming the single SB at all frequencies up to about 60Hz, although as tommaazz said, a pair of SB's can start to close that gap in about the 40 to 60Hz range. With one of each, the difference in sheer output from about 40Hz down should be profound. If it's not, then I would suspect that something is wonky with the PB positioning or set-up.

None of that means that you shouldn't, or won't, ultimately prefer a pair of SB's to a single PB. With your room size, and without knowing more about your listening habits and goals, the dual SB's might very well be the better option. But I would make sure that the listening comparison was allowing for a level playing field since you already have both subs there. If you can, give us a little more detail.

Regards,
Mike
Hi,

Thanks for the reply. My listening habits are 60/40 movies/music. I have done the sub crawl and found that the left and right front corners are the best placement. I have placed the pb13 ultra at the same spot where i had my sb13. I also tried to set up the pb13 in sealed mode and didnt really hear a difference.

I do not have both subs connected at the same time. I am testing them one at a time. I have my speakers (cm10 s2's) set as small, with a crossover at 80 mhz and the sub at 120 mhz.

I have a denon x4200w to power them. I am not sure whether to turn on of off dynamic EQ and dynamic volume. Any recommendations?
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post #24586 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 08:30 AM
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Details?
onkyo/denon avr has my pc13 ultra booming, with the yamaha not so much
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post #24587 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 08:55 AM
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Hi,

Thanks for the reply. My listening habits are 60/40 movies/music. I have done the sub crawl and found that the left and right front corners are the best placement. I have placed the pb13 ultra at the same spot where i had my sb13. I also tried to set up the pb13 in sealed mode and didnt really hear a difference.

I do not have both subs connected at the same time. I am testing them one at a time. I have my speakers (cm10 s2's) set as small, with a crossover at 80 mhz and the sub at 120 mhz.

I have a denon x4200w to power them. I am not sure whether to turn on of off dynamic EQ and dynamic volume. Any recommendations?
You are welcome! I think you can probably get the most objective listening experience without DEQ, and definitely without Dynamic Volume, as DV will actually compress the frequency range. When you said that you have the sub set at 120Hz, I assume you mean the LFE setting. Is that right?

When you ran Audyssey with each sub in it's turn, were the post-Audyssey trim settings the same? For instance, did XT-32 set both of them to -6, or whatever, and did you adjust the trim level upward on either of them after Audyssey?

Edit: Incidentally, I wouldn't compare in sealed mode. The PB was designed to perform optimally in ported mode, and the 15Hz port tune is recommended. That (along with the larger cabinet) is what gives the sub such a large output advantage over the SB. Don't forget to adjust the digital setting to the port tune when you add the port plug.

Last edited by mthomas47; 09-02-2016 at 09:14 AM.
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post #24588 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 08:55 AM
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Hi,

Thanks for the reply. My listening habits are 60/40 movies/music. I have done the sub crawl and found that the left and right front corners are the best placement. I have placed the pb13 ultra at the same spot where i had my sb13. I also tried to set up the pb13 in sealed mode and didnt really hear a difference.

I do not have both subs connected at the same time. I am testing them one at a time. I have my speakers (cm10 s2's) set as small, with a crossover at 80 mhz and the sub at 120 mhz.

I have a denon x4200w to power them. I am not sure whether to turn on of off dynamic EQ and dynamic volume. Any recommendations?
I have completely turn off the DYN EQ (DYN VOL should be set to off at all times except if you will ever want to listen at night and dont want to disturb anyone) and now when i turn it on just to try it it sounds really odd...but i am runing a subs 6db hot...try it for some time so that your ears wil adapt to the sound...it really is worth it to me it just sounds clearer (and i especially dont like the boosted surrounds)...for music i listen to pure direct or i turn off the audyssey

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post #24589 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 09:09 AM
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onkyo/denon avr has my pc13 ultra booming, with the yamaha not so much
Hi,

That could be partly the effect of DEQ, if you are used to using that. At a master volume level of -15, for instance, DEQ adds a 10db bass boost. The boost is added to all the channels, but it's most noticeable for the sub. If you start with a strongly negative trim level in your YPAO calibration (turn up the gain to get to about -9), you can add your own bass boost to the PC after your calibration. Most people probably add 3 to 6db after any sort of calibration, but some add 10db, or more.

I think that the trim levels on the Yamaha only go down to -10, so if I wanted to add a lot of sub boost, I would calibrate at -9, add trim up to about 0.0, and then if I still wanted even more sub boost, I would adjust the digital gain on the PC up another db or two. This procedure sounds complicated, but it's designed to keep the strain on the sub amp (not the AVR) while letting you more easily keep track of how much trim (and/or gain) you have actually added. As long as you pay attention to what you have done (I keep a record of gain adjustments) and listen for any sounds of clipping, you should be able to get the PC back pretty close to where it was.

Of course, Audyssey does EQ lower than YPAO does, so it's possible that Audyssey was helping you with a frequency that YPAO is not, but I think it's more likely that it's just a matter of good post-calibration adjustments. I hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24590 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 09:17 AM
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I dont use deq, receiver is rx-a2060. Going to rerun ypao again and see if i can get some improvement, will update later today. The onkyo hit the hardest, denon comes close. Bass hits so hard that it opens and closes the door in the room, walls shake and stuff falls from shelves
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Hi,

That could be partly the effect of DEQ, if you are used to using that. At a master volume level of -15, for instance, DEQ adds a 10db bass boost. The boost is added to all the channels, but it's most noticeable for the sub. If you start with a strongly negative trim level in your YPAO calibration (turn up the gain to get to about -9), you can add your own bass boost to the PC after your calibration. Most people probably add 3 to 6db after any sort of calibration, but some add 10db, or more.

I think that the trim levels on the Yamaha only go down to -10, so if I wanted to add a lot of sub boost, I would calibrate at -9, add trim up to about 0.0, and then if I still wanted even more sub boost, I would adjust the digital gain on the PC up another db or two. This procedure sounds complicated, but it's designed to keep the strain on the sub amp (not the AVR) while letting you more easily keep track of how much trim (and/or gain) you have actually added. As long as you pay attention to what you have done (I keep a record of gain adjustments) and listen for any sounds of clipping, you should be able to get the PC back pretty close to where it was.

Of course, Audyssey does EQ lower than YPAO does, so it's possible that Audyssey was helping you with a frequency that YPAO is not, but I think it's more likely that it's just a matter of good post-calibration adjustments. I hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24591 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 09:22 AM
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I dont use deq, receiver is rx-a2060. Going to rerun ypao again and see if i can get some improvement, will update later today. The onkyo hit the hardest, denon comes close. Bass hits so hard that it opens and closes the door in the room, walls shake and stuff falls from shelves

Well, who wouldn't want that?

(I meant that you might be comparing the Onkyo/Denon with DEQ, to the Yamaha receiver without it. Audyssey defaults to DEQ automatically every time you run a calibration, so you have to deliberately disable it if you don't want it on.)

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post #24592 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 09:23 AM
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Well, who wouldn't want that?
I just love the reaction from my company when something goes tumbling off the shelf
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post #24593 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 09:54 AM
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If you are looking for someone to tell you that you're crazy to buy bigger subs, you have come to the wrong place!

That's a good looking room, and set-up. You know, if you ever did decide to go with duals, the wall to the right, near the outlet, would be a perfectly good place for another SB13. Opposing walls almost always work better for bass than a symmetrical arrangement, anyway.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you . . . the room has a few quirks, but it oddly works really well for us. Interesting thought on doing a dual placement on that wall . . . I like the idea, but I've always been afraid to put anything there period . . . just worried that it would somehow block/mess with the sound from the speakers there. But something to think about and play with down the line.

Oh, and even better . . . headed to the SVS site this AM, feeling more confident about my decision to buy the SB13-Ultra at $1199 in the outlet. They are now down to $999 . . .

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post #24594 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 10:02 AM
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Fwiw turning the sub gain up and rerunning calibration does nothing. Calibration still shoots for 75db no matter where the gain is set. It will simply keep setting the sub trim further negative the higher you turn the amp gain. You have to manually adjust the sub trim up post calibration if you want to run the sub hot.
He was in the plus after running audyssey though. You obviously don't want to be in the plus on your AVR after post calibration. He was complaining he didn't have enough output. I realize he's still gonna be at 75db's whether he's at -9 or +10 lol. Would you rather be at -9 or +10? Herpa.

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post #24595 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 10:18 AM
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I've never heard them, but if the PB13-Ultras are $999 in the outlet, buy them all.
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post #24596 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 10:32 AM
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I've never heard them, but if the PB13-Ultras are $999 in the outlet, buy them all.
Sorry . . . SB13-Ultras . . . I will correct my other post as not to cause confusion.
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post #24597 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 10:39 AM
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Thank you . . . the room has a few quirks, but it oddly works really well for us. Interesting thought on doing a dual placement on that wall . . . I like the idea, but I've always been afraid to put anything there period . . . just worried that it would somehow block/mess with the sound from the speakers there. But something to think about and play with down the line.

Oh, and even better . . . headed to the SVS site this AM, feeling more confident about my decision to buy the PB13-Ultra at $1199 in the outlet. They are now down to $999 . . .

Wow! $999 for an SB13 is a terrific deal! I don't look at the Outlet all the time, but I'm not sure I have seen them that low before. I would seriously think about two at that price.

I gave some thought to the issue of a sub potentially interfering with the sound of your RF speaker, before I made the suggestion, but I honestly don't think it would. Your tweeter will be up above the level of the sub, and won't have a lot of vertical dispersion, anyway. And reflections from the side walls are much more likely to influence the sound at the MLP than a relatively small sub will. I think if you put it a foot or so from the end of the wall, with the driver facing you, it might work very well there.

That's just to egg you on a little.
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post #24598 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 10:47 AM
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Sorry . . . SB13-Ultras . . . I will correct my other post as not to cause confusion.
I knew what you meant. I was just messing around. There seems to be a lot of the SB13s in the outlet.

I keep thinking I want/need a sub, but I don't even have a functioning sound system at the moment. I bought some Polk LSiM bookshelfs and center channel a few months back and now I just need to get an AVR. I think I'll probably want a sub and was looking at the PB12+ during the last sale. My room is really large though, like 5000+ cubic feet, so I don't know if it would be big enough. The ported subs also seem to be flipping huge and flipping expensive.
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post #24599 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 11:03 AM
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Wow! $999 for an SB13 is a terrific deal! I don't look at the Outlet all the time, but I'm not sure I have seen them that low before. I would seriously think about two at that price.
Believe me . . . I would love to go dual knowing how good that price is. But I need to quit while I am ahead . . . talked myself and my wife up from $499 originally to double that amount. So if I doubled again . . . I might have to use the subs as a cot in the basement . . .

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I knew what you meant. I was just messing around. There seems to be a lot of the SB13s in the outlet.

I keep thinking I want/need a sub, but I don't even have a functioning sound system at the moment. I bought some Polk LSiM bookshelfs and center channel a few months back and now I just need to get an AVR. I think I'll probably want a sub and was looking at the PB12+ during the last sale. My room is really large though, like 5000+ cubic feet, so I don't know if it would be big enough. The ported subs also seem to be flipping huge and flipping expensive.
I had a JBL L8400 that matched my speakers . . . and while not a world-beater, it held it's own for our listening habits. But that went south, and we've been using an older Infinity sub from one of their surround sets we used to have to get us by. It has worked in a pinch, but it's been acting up and not keeping up . . . even just on casual music it's bombing out. So yeah, I was figuring something in the middle of the SVS line would be an upgrade, and still not break the bank . . . and then all those SB13s hit the outlet. I was actually about to give up on the outlet sale and just get a new SB or PB2000 . . . but change of plans. But I hear you on the big ported subs . . . even the PB2000 was going to be a bit of a stretch space wise. I could have shoe-horned it in there, but not ideal. I'm pretty sure the PB13-Ultra is bigger than other pieces of furniture in my living room.
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post #24600 of 25138 Old 09-02-2016, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by B T C View Post
I knew what you meant. I was just messing around. There seems to be a lot of the SB13s in the outlet.

I keep thinking I want/need a sub, but I don't even have a functioning sound system at the moment. I bought some Polk LSiM bookshelfs and center channel a few months back and now I just need to get an AVR. I think I'll probably want a sub and was looking at the PB12+ during the last sale. My room is really large though, like 5000+ cubic feet, so I don't know if it would be big enough. The ported subs also seem to be flipping huge and flipping expensive.

The ported subs are big, but they blend in pretty well in a large room. I have a 6000^3 room, and I started with a single PC12 NSD (well, not counting an earlier SuperCube). As I learned more about my bass preferences (which tend to increase over time) I upgraded in size, and added more subs. But "big enough" is a relative thing. I think a single PB12+ could be a great place to start, particularly if the price were right. The AVR does sound like the first priority, though.

Regards,
Mike
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