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post #24571 of 24589 Old Yesterday, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
Thanks Magellen, having one of those dithering moments here that has unfortunately dragged on for two weeks regarding making a decision on either PB13U or SB13U or SB13U(x2). I have never had a decent sub, recently bought my speakers, didn't think i would need one as the bass from my front 3 speakers is powerful, 35hz lr, 32hz center.

Originally it was the SB13U but i was concerned I may not get enough output below 20hz so i then starting looking at PSA S1500(x2) but the PSA are more expensive in veneer here in the UK.

I think i am wanting the PB13U but the room is upstairs and it's very heavy, i would rather keep it boxed until its in the room(171lbs ouch). There's no handles on the box to make it easier to carry so now i am back looking at one or two SB13U, just i do not want to have regrets(buyer's remorse, if only i had bought the PB13U syndrome) as my speakers are quite high end here in the UK so any subs need to compliment them to the fullest and not be light weight in the lowest frequencies. I have not experienced sub 30hz frequencies in my set up.

Have read many reviews of the SB13U and it gets great write ups. One review did say though that the limiters were kicking in watching a heavy bass movie scene whilst putting it through its paces 10hz ish but did go onto say most subs struggle with that particular passage.

I would say i listen to action movies 65db-80db main listening position about 3.5 m from the center speaker.

Costs here in the UK are £1629 PB13U, £1399 SB13U and there is a 10% price increase on Sep 1 because exchange rate change since Brexit.

I'm not sure i would ever upgrade to two PB13U's but am willing to buy two SB13U's if it would close the performance gap on one PB13U. If i was sure the 2x SB13u would close the LFE and max db output specs against one PB13U i might go down that route
Hi. I would go dual sb13u over one pb13u...but once you try dual there is no coming back to single sub just a reminder ...the dual sb13u will have similar output at around 30 hz and will be significantly more powerful in the upper bass (50-100hz+) than one pb 13u...i think you wont regret it one bit...as i said they will easily outperform a single pb13u at 30+hz...and also in the lower than 15hz...and i agree with you that here in Europe the prices for PSA subs are ridiculous if they were more in line with the USA then i would have a dual s3000 i
BTW those MA speakers are a dream come true for me ...really nice speakers mate

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post #24572 of 24589 Old Yesterday, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by brehiser View Post
I literally just went through the exact same thing. Had a Pl200 that i upgraded to a PB2000 from the SVS outlet. When i initially set it up just like my PL200 was (knob on the back at 12 oclock) i was a bit disappointed. I then bumped it to about 2 oclock and reran odyssey. It set the level to -11db in my denon x1200w. After upping it to about -6db the PB2000 really came alive. Its pretty incredible how much cleaner it sounds, and im also noticing alot more detail in the bass. Things that would thump before, now thump with authority. A really good example is in chapter 2 of Oblivion, when he first starts up the plane thingy. Huge difference between the way the 2 subs handled it. I was really hoping i wouldnt notice/like the difference between the 2 so i could return the PB2000 and save the money, but unfortunately thats not the case. Ive now completely blown my speaker budget, and im not even upset about it.

Exactly, I am still playing with the sub and didnt have too much time last night but I can feel the sub bug digging its nails into me. I hope i can get happy with this sub and not get trapped into the endless upgrade rollercoaster.
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post #24573 of 24589 Old Yesterday, 09:06 AM
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tommaazz i was recently told that SVS margins are huge because they are manufactured in China versus US for PSA, and then on top of that SVS i believe also charge far higher in the US when compared against the prices and arguably better PSA specs..

SVS must be sacrificing those massive margins to establish themselves in the UK/Europe.
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post #24574 of 24589 Old Yesterday, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
tommaazz i was recently told that SVS margins are huge because they are manufactured in China versus US for PSA, and then on top of that SVS i believe also charge far higher in the US when compared against the prices and arguably better PSA specs..

SVS must be sacrificing those massive margins to establish themselves in the UK/Europe.
Yes but also SVS prices arent cheap...especially if you look at the SB/PB13U but compared to the prices from the higher end models from lets say monitor audio, bowers... they are cheap and are for sure compareable and i think even better especially because you can get 2xSVS 13U for one of those subs...other smaller SVS subs have a more competitive prices...i was lucky enough that i paid around 1600 eur for the SB13U that are now around 1800+ eur
in the Europe the XTZ subs especially XTZ 3x12 is a very very good sub for the money. It is even more powerful from the PB13u and for almost the same price in fact it is almost like 2xpb13U!...it is the best buy in Europe by far if you have a place for it
and about PSA...i am sure you would want a veneer on it but then...omg like +300GBP for veneer...give me a break that is really crazy and also the corners must be rounded because those edgy sub corners are ugly and i am sure you would want a nice looking sub if you have a MA platinum speakers

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post #24575 of 24589 Old Yesterday, 12:08 PM
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The PSA are rounded on the standard black textured finish, the veneers are however square and both designs are ugly in comparison to the SVS, wife let me know about that, i thought they might have been cheaper in UK than the SVS as they are in the US, turns out in veneer they are more expensive in the UK.
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post #24576 of 24589 Old Yesterday, 01:16 PM
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tommaazz how do you find your twin subs with movies for LFE, can you feel the sofa shaking.

Reading the thread can anybody explain further the sharper roll off of the PB13u against the gradual SB13u roll off in very easy to understand terms, how does this impact watching movies in either a negative or positive way. I understand the PB will have more output volume between its tuning point and approx. 30hz as this i believe is what i am looking for in a sub but does the sharp roll off mean it will be boomy?
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post #24577 of 24589 Old Yesterday, 01:19 PM
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So the PC12-NSD I returned is back in the outlet. They colored in the damaged spot on the base and are now trying to get $679 for it. It was $450 when I bought it. http://www.svsound.com/collections/o...sd-outlet-9154

Last edited by MIX_MASTER_ICE; Yesterday at 01:23 PM.
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post #24578 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
So the PC12-NSD I returned is back in the outlet. They colored in the damaged spot on the base and are now trying to get $679 for it. It was $450 when I bought it. http://www.svsound.com/collections/o...sd-outlet-9154
Yeah. They will reduce it in day or two.
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post #24579 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
So the PC12-NSD I returned is back in the outlet. They colored in the damaged spot on the base and are now trying to get $679 for it. It was $450 when I bought it. http://www.svsound.com/collections/o...sd-outlet-9154

The Sharpie Magnum is even in the pic they posted!

Honestly, they should probably take the base plate off and replace it with their subwoofer isolation feet.
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post #24580 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 03:49 PM
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Yeah. They will reduce it in day or two.
Not if somebody buys it....
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post #24581 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pcfriedrich View Post
Not if somebody buys it....
Of course.
But those who are looking at the outlet know the price of this stuff.
And a random buyer will either go for new or buy from Best buy

When I bought it, it was $699 a day or two before.
When they dropped it to $499, I picked it up.
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post #24582 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
I've never seen them list a PC12-NSD this high in the outlet in the last couple of years. Last year they were selling brand new for $500. At any rate, that's not a "chip" in the base. It had deep gouges in the side of the bass, starting from the bottom. The cloth on the cylinder was also in rough shape. I'm very shocked they are selling this in this condition and at this price.
As I mentioned in the previous post all 3 PC12-NSDs were $200 higher a day or two prior.
Looks like no one touched it so they dropped it to some sane pricing level and they flew.
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post #24583 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitho22 View Post
tommaazz how do you find your twin subs with movies for LFE, can you feel the sofa shaking.

Reading the thread can anybody explain further the sharper roll off of the PB13u against the gradual SB13u roll off in very easy to understand terms, how does this impact watching movies in either a negative or positive way. I understand the PB will have more output volume between its tuning point and approx. 30hz as this i believe is what i am looking for in a sub but does the sharp roll off mean it will be boomy?
Couple more comments:
- twin subs won't add a lot of dB if you're splitting them apart to smooth the bass - my second one adds maybe 3 dB. But it's more for smoothing out the peaks and valleys in the bass response due to standing waves in your room. This helps both the main listening position, and makes the response better for other listening positions too.
- A piece of advice I found useful on a PB2000 review was to construct a cardboard box the size of the sub to see what it would look like in your room. For extra effect, paint it black :-) The ported subs are pretty massive, and your wife should definitely see it "in person" before you pull the trigger. Since you can't demo the actual sub, mocking one up is the next best thing. My SB2000's are barely a foot cubed, and pretty much disappear in my room. I'm very happy to forego a bit of thump for not having huge boxes in my room, which is multi-purpose and not a dedicated HT.
- I was really concerned about ULF when I bought my subs, but in reality there's not much movie content below 15 Hz. In hindsight, I'm not sure that should be a factor in your decision. Other than just not feeling what's down there, I don't think there's a negative to the steep drop-off on the PB13. Cool bragging right to say your sub goes to single digits, but in everyday movie viewing, and certainly music, there's just not much content down there. Maybe that will change over time?
- did you check the shipping charge on that PB13U? It probably requires a freight truck rather than standard package delivery.
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post #24584 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 07:39 PM
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Bickering removed. Stick to the topic, please.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #24585 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Magellan55 View Post
Couple more comments:
- twin subs won't add a lot of dB if you're splitting them apart to smooth the bass - my second one adds maybe 3 dB. But it's more for smoothing out the peaks and valleys in the bass response due to standing waves in your room. This helps both the main listening position, and makes the response better for other listening positions too.
I'm not sure that this is correct. There are people who understand this better then I do, so please feel free to chime in. However my understanding is that this is somewhat of a myth. At a minimum you should expect a 3db increase and as much as a 6db boost. While I'm not sure the exact properties that effect the dB boost, I don't believe co-locating the subs is necessary.

The part of dual subs smoothing out the frequency response is absolutely correct and may well be the biggest advantage. Properly placed and configured you can get a dramatically better response with dual subs.
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post #24586 of 24589 Unread Yesterday, 08:01 PM
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In my 28x14 room, a single PB1000 made my "sofa shake" It made the door 30 feet away shake. Now I have my PB1000, and two PC2000s.... Whatever you decide on, get duals, even if it means dual PB1000s, over single PB2000. Huge difference. Before duals, I would walk around my room and find spaces where there was no bass, and spaces where there was too much bass. After duals, I mostly find areas of even bass. there are areas of too much bass (mostly walls and corners}, but its hard to find areas of almost no bass (as I could with one subwoofer).
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post #24587 of 24589 Unread Today, 06:13 AM
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Thanks, if i understand correctly, dual subs as opposed to one can give a more even response around the room (for more than one listening position) if placed correctly and possibly 3-6db more output(loundness). Data-Bass implies one SB13U will go lower 83db @10hz than one PB13U(15hz mode) but not with anywhere near the same output between 16hz-40hz.

My concern was i had read that in some very low frequency scenes whilst under review the SB13U(one) protection/limiters were kicking in to prevent damage to the driver, maybe the reviewer was pushing it loud to find its limits.

I would prefer to have more juice in reserve with the sub if i watched a movie really loud in my room which is rectangular 3000cft sealed. Loud to me at the MLP the SPL is no higher than 80-85db though i understand there may be short bursts above 85db, typically i listen at around 60-75db most of the time at the MLP

I suppose my overall concern is do i have enough output at 16-35hz if i went with two SB13U (probably not ideal but two SB13U might be placed beside the front LR speakers) compared to one PB13U. I can never say never to two PB13U but there is some other furniture in the room as well as seating.
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post #24588 of 24589 Unread Today, 06:21 AM
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Also swaying me towards one PB113U(notwithstanding it will be cheaper) i should have also mentioned it has been claimed to get the same output x4 SB13U would be needed to equal one PB13U if that is correct.
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post #24589 of 24589 Unread Today, 07:11 AM
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Also swaying me towards one PB113U(notwithstanding it will be cheaper) i should have also mentioned it has been claimed to get the same output x4 SB13U would be needed to equal one PB13U if that is correct.
Yes but that is only valid at or around 16-30hz (pb13 in 15hz mode)...everywhere else dual sb13u will have more output especially above 50hz the output difference will be significant (x2 because here the sb and pb gets almost equal only 80 and above the sb has a few db advantage 1 vs 1))...i dont know i think you can try it for a month if i am not mistaken (if you buy it from lsound international)...if you have a place sure go and get the pb13u and if you will buy another one later than just go for it...but if you dont want a second big sub then go with dual sb13u...in my room which is around 1800 cubic feet if i listen at -7 db from reference (just for demo purposes) and subs 6-7 db hot (calibrated with audyssey xt32 without using dynEQ) they sure rock and shake without the problem and i didnt noticed not a one time that they would struggle with the material (WOTW pod emergence scene,...)...i am extremely happy with them and i plan to keep them for a long time...i usually listen at around -15db from reference and they both can also shake a sofa if the material ask for it...i dont know but i preffer the sealed sub in my room the ported i had before just sounded boomy and aslo my wife didnt like it now i can have it louder and no one complains as there is no more boominess (i guess my room excited those 20hz feq. just too much)... i think you are better off buying a xtz 3x12 than pb13u it is more powerful and for the same amount of money especially if you just want to have a one big sub...just a thought

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