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post #24661 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by marcdorfman View Post
It's their previously announced new Prime elevation speaker not a subwoofer (yet).
Figured it was a play on words with elevation. Was referring to the previous posts, should have quoted.

Really hope they make some big improvements as others have suggested.
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post #24662 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^

I agree that, from a performance standpoint a number of subs have surpassed the Ultra at a comparable price point. And I also agree that a bigger driver, and probably a larger cabinet and a more powerful amplifier, will be required to get a new ported sub to a more level playing field for performance. But, it will cost more than the current PB's, IMO, and I'm not sure that we should anticipate a very large price drop on the current PB's.

SVS has a very successful business model from everything I have seen and read about their fairly high volume of sales. And, without downsizing, and changing aspects of their business model, I'm not sure that they will be able to cut costs enough to compete with sub makers who are essentially working on more of a garage-type business model.

Most of the smaller ID sub makers rarely have very large inventories, although a couple of the other larger ones have larger inventories than the smallest do. A lot of the more cutting edge subs are made one at a time for special order. But, SVS has production facilities able to churn out a constant supply of it's subs, so they are always available. But, those production facilities are a costly investment, and we pay for that instant availability.

We also pay something for the 45-day free trial period, with free shipping both ways. And we pay something for the ability to trade-in our subs at full value within a year of purchase. We also pay something for the piano black or black oak finishes that come standard on the Ultras. Other makers may charge extra for anything beyond matte black.

Some buyers may actually prefer matte black rather than a nice veneer, as one member commented that he did yesterday, but SVS's success suggests that the majority of buyers probably like the nicer finishes that come standard on the premium subs. And it definitely costs something to make that a standard feature.

I think that for sheer performance, it will always be hard for SVS to compete straight up, because it's an arms race, with too many innovators for a large company trying to appeal to a large buying public to be able to keep up. Even if they could keep up with R&D, they couldn't constantly be retooling their larger production facilities to produce new models as often as smaller garage-type companies can. But, you may have to wait weeks for subs from some of those ID companies, because they are often making them based on individual orders. So, that's a trade-off between small cutting-edge companies, appealing to a niche sub buying market, and a larger volume company like SVS selling to a much larger and more diverse market.

These are just some of my own thoughts on this, and I may be wrong about some of it. I am very eager to see SVS introduce newer, more powerful subs. But, just using JTR for example, the S1 is already surpassed by the S2, so the day the new SVS sealed sub comes out it still won't be the baddest boy on the block, although it will be very powerful for it's size.

And it's hard to imagine that SVS will even try to equal the performance of the Cap 4000 ULF. But, that's an approximately 40" by 40" by 20" cabinet with a 4000 watt amp and dual 18" drivers. They are made one at a time, for orders several weeks in advance. And the nicer finishes are $500 more for veneer and $700 for piano black. It's an amazing sub, but it's produced through an entirely different business model, for a very small niche market.

I think that, for most of us who are SVS owners, there will always be some real advantages to purchasing SVS subs. But, there may also always be someone else coming along who can offer more sheer performance for the same, or even less money.

Regards,
Mike
JTR is more of a made to order company although they sometimes stock inventory. Power Sound Audio ships subs usually the same day or next day an have many subs that surpass the the ultras performance for less money.

The JTR 1400 subs has almost the same enclosure size as the PB ultra yet more than doubles the output because SVS is stuck in the 90's with 13 inch subs.

I really hope they are releasing he new PB ultra with an 18 inch driver.
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post #24663 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 08:02 AM
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SVS could reduce the cost by getting rid of the digital display amplifier and ditching all the bass management stuff...that stuff was nice 5-10yrs ago when AVR's did not have the advanced room correction software built in that they do today. I am willing to bet SVS could move up to a 15" driver with a 1700 watt ICE amp and keep the enclosure the same as the PB13. Also I see no need for multi tune, just tune the sub natively for 14-15hz and be done. If you want sealed then buy the smaller sealed SB...having a sub do both is a compromise both directions...again optimize the system for 1 alignment and be done.
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post #24664 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
SVS could reduce the cost by getting rid of the digital display amplifier and ditching all the bass management stuff...that stuff was nice 5-10yrs ago when AVR's did not have the advanced room correction software built in that they do today. I am willing to bet SVS could move up to a 15" driver with a 1700 watt ICE amp and keep the enclosure the same as the PB13. Also I see no need for multi tune, just tune the sub natively for 14-15hz and be done. If you want sealed then buy the smaller sealed SB...having a sub do both is a compromise both directions...again optimize the system for 1 alignment and be done.
I am 100% with you on having a single port tune, rather than multiple options, which don't really improve the subs native performance. And I also agree that they could greatly simplify the DSP, although it will be interesting to see if they still feel that they need to keep up with the Jones' on any of the bass management features.

My own speculation has been that they would develop a hybrid driver in the 16" to 16.5" size with about a 1500 watt amp. But I have also speculated that they would be trying for a lower port tune this time, and if so, they may also slightly increase the enclosure size. Once you get to the size of the PB13, a couple of inches more in a couple of dimensions may not matter much from a placement standpoint, but could make a significant difference in total cubic volume.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24665 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
JTR is more of a made to order company although they sometimes stock inventory. Power Sound Audio ships subs usually the same day or next day an have many subs that surpass the the ultras performance for less money.

The JTR 1400 subs has almost the same enclosure size as the PB ultra yet more than doubles the output because SVS is stuck in the 90's with 13 inch subs.

I really hope they are releasing he new PB ultra with an 18 inch driver.
No argument with any of that! And the Cap 1400 is a heck of a sub.
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post #24666 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^

I agree that, from a performance standpoint a number of subs have surpassed the Ultra at a comparable price point. And I also agree that a bigger driver, and probably a larger cabinet and a more powerful amplifier, will be required to get a new ported sub to a more level playing field for performance. But, it will cost more than the current PB's, IMO, and I'm not sure that we should anticipate a very large price drop on the current PB's.

SVS has a very successful business model from everything I have seen and read about their fairly high volume of sales. And, without downsizing, and changing aspects of their business model, I'm not sure that they will be able to cut costs enough to compete with sub makers who are essentially working on more of a garage-type business model.

Most of the smaller ID sub makers rarely have very large inventories, although a couple of the other larger ones have larger inventories than the smallest do. A lot of the more cutting edge subs are made one at a time for special order. But, SVS has production facilities able to churn out a constant supply of it's subs, so they are always available. But, those production facilities are a costly investment, and we pay for that instant availability.

We also pay something for the 45-day free trial period, with free shipping both ways. And we pay something for the ability to trade-in our subs at full value within a year of purchase. We also pay something for the piano black or black oak finishes that come standard on the Ultras. Other makers may charge extra for anything beyond matte black.

Some buyers may actually prefer matte black rather than a nice veneer, as one member commented that he did yesterday, but SVS's success suggests that the majority of buyers probably like the nicer finishes that come standard on the premium subs. And it definitely costs something to make that a standard feature.

I think that for sheer performance, it will always be hard for SVS to compete straight up, because it's an arms race, with too many innovators for a large company trying to appeal to a large buying public to be able to keep up. Even if they could keep up with R&D, they couldn't constantly be retooling their larger production facilities to produce new models as often as smaller garage-type companies can. But, you may have to wait weeks for subs from some of those ID companies, because they are often making them based on individual orders. So, that's a trade-off between small cutting-edge companies, appealing to a niche sub buying market, and a larger volume company like SVS selling to a much larger and more diverse market.

These are just some of my own thoughts on this, and I may be wrong about some of it. I am very eager to see SVS introduce newer, more powerful subs. But, just using JTR for example, the S1 is already surpassed by the S2, so the day the new SVS sealed sub comes out it still won't be the baddest boy on the block, although it will be very powerful for it's size.

And it's hard to imagine that SVS will even try to equal the performance of the Cap 4000 ULF. But, that's an approximately 40" by 40" by 20" cabinet with a 4000 watt amp and dual 18" drivers. They are made one at a time, for orders several weeks in advance. And the nicer finishes are $500 more for veneer and $700 for piano black. It's an amazing sub, but it's produced through an entirely different business model, for a very small niche market.

I think that, for most of us who are SVS owners, there will always be some real advantages to purchasing SVS subs. But, there may also always be someone else coming along who can offer more sheer performance for the same, or even less money.

Regards,
Mike
Well said, and i agree. Also thank you as i didn't realize i have a year to trade up on my SB13-Ultra and get full value. Looks like i'll be a new owner of this upcoming sealed flagship.
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post #24667 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
These are just some of my own thoughts on this, and I may be wrong about some of it. I am very eager to see SVS introduce newer, more powerful subs. But, just using JTR for example, the S1 is already surpassed by the S2, so the day the new SVS sealed sub comes out it still won't be the baddest boy on the block, although it will be very powerful for it's size.

Regards,
Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
JTR is more of a made to order company although they sometimes stock inventory. Power Sound Audio ships subs usually the same day or next day an have many subs that surpass the the ultras performance for less money.
Just a quick correction. JTR has been stocking subwoofers for a while now and currently has almost every model in stock.
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post #24668 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 11:22 AM
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I'm curious to see if this replaces the Plus and Ultra line or simply is in addition to it. I've always felt like a better move for SVS might be to come out with a new version of the Ultra that gets into that $2200-$2500 range. Give it the bigger driver, amp and allow it to compete with things from JTR and the Submersive. At the same time, strip out the DSP and ability to do multiple tuning frequencies from the existing Ultra and drop the price down on it. This would give two benefits, it would make SVS more competitive with some of the other companies that are suddenly offering lower cost high performance subs, plus it would allow SVS to have that bigger sub that seems to be so much in demand.

As for me, I've got my Plus and my Ultra and will be happy to sit this upgrade cycle out.

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post #24669 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Just a quick correction. JTR has been stocking subwoofers for a while now and currently has almost every model in stock.
Great!

Sorry for the bad info!!
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post #24670 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Just a quick correction. JTR has been stocking subwoofers for a while now and currently has almost every model in stock.


Do they have any dealers in China ?



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post #24671 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks, that's exciting news! The S1 is quite a sub, so something comparable will be a very nice addition to the SVS family. My personal interest is in the ported Ultra, so I am hopeful that an upgrade to that might happen at the same time.

Considering the crowded marketplace, I have speculated that in order to make an upgrade to the PB13 (and/or the PC13) worthwhile, a new model would have to have a larger driver, in a larger cabinet, with a more powerful amp, and would have to offer about a 12Hz port tune. That's a lot of upgrading! So, it will be interesting to see what happens.

Regards,
Mike
Yeah i have no idea how long it would take SVS to go from a finalized schematic of a new product to production. Hopefully not a long time so they bring their A game to be very competitive with the likes of JTR PSA Seaton and so on.

Now that i'm aware that i can get full value on a trade in on my SB13-Ultra,,,, i feel like a kid at Christmas waiting for the new powerhouse to be available.
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post #24672 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 05:41 PM
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Yeah i have no idea how long it would take SVS to go from a finalized schematic of a new product to production. Hopefully not a long time so they bring their A game to be very competitive with the likes of JTR PSA Seaton and so on.

Now that i'm aware that i can get full value on a trade in on my SB13-Ultra,,,, i feel like a kid at Christmas waiting for the new powerhouse to be available.
I just upgraded my pb12+ to a PC13 Ultra. I wonder if I have a year from now or from the first purchase.
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post #24673 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by marcdorfman View Post
I just upgraded my pb12+ to a PC13 Ultra. I wonder if I have a year from now or from the first purchase.
Unless somebody knows something strange, I would expect the new upgrade period to start from the date of your most recent purchase. I'm pretty sure of that.
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post #24674 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 08:35 PM
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That would be my guess as well. At the end of the transaction SVS is still selling a more expensive sub. They also have this built into their pricing so while some other companys are giving more performance vs $$ SVS does have their advantages.
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post #24675 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 10:57 PM
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Just a couple of brief comments regarding this discussion of the Ultra and ID subs. I recently had the opportunity to evaluate three popular and prominent products in my home...the JTR Captivator 1400's, PSA V1800's, and SVS PB13-Ultras. Although I auditioned and evaluated each of these subs objectively utilizing REW, I apologize as I am unable to post my results due to data loss. On paper, the performance factors of each can be compared (data-bass) to the other to determine who wins the "drag race" and even this can sometimes become debatable. Suffice to say that each of these subs performed very capably...each with their own strengths and weaknesses. However, the real epiphany for me was not who had the best numbers but which factors were most important to me, in my environment, with my content, and at my preferred listening levels. This coupled with personal subjective preferences determined that I would keep the Ultras for now. I acknowledge that of the three subs, the Ultra is the dinosaur...and like everyone...eagerly awaiting a newer version. Lastly, I find myself agreeing with the comments from @mthomas47 , @raynist , and @basshead81 relative to these companies and the current state of their products. Having worked with Ed, Jeff, and Tom, I can earnestly say...you can't make a bad decision...just need to determine the right product for you.
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post #24676 of 26593 Old 09-22-2016, 11:23 PM
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Im really interested in seeing SVS's new flagship subs if/when they do arrive. I purchased an SB13U (matte) over the labor day weekend for $1k from the outlet (in what seems to be mint condition... although it came with a European type power plug and they had to send me a US plug ) and im really happy with it, especially at that price. Theres so many good sub brands out there like JTR, PSA, HSU, Rythmik that are comparable and even outperform the SB13U but for me I was really attracted to the SVS for not only its great reviews in sound (and it does sound goooood. So much depth!) but I also like it best over the others for its size and looks - not to mention the warranty, shipping, and trade in ability. I'll never know what the others sound like because I havent heard any of them before but I cant imagine it being an enormous difference that would make me want to spit on my sub in shame So for now I am happy... just wish I would have gotten 2 for that price!!! Unfortunately not many matte versions exist in the outlet compared to the piano black.

I do wonder though if I trade it in for their new sealed flagship if they will give me credit for the $1599 price or the price I purchased it at... That will be the determining factor. If its huge price jump ill probably just keep the SB13U that I have and just get a second one

I'll post a pic when I straighten everything up!

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post #24677 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 05:10 AM
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Im really interested in seeing SVS's new flagship subs if/when they do arrive. I purchased an SB13U (matte) over the labor day weekend for $1k from the outlet (in what seems to be mint condition... although it came with a European type power plug and they had to send me a US plug ) and im really happy with it, especially at that price. Theres so many good sub brands out there like JTR, PSA, HSU, Rythmik that are comparable and even outperform the SB13U but for me I was really attracted to the SVS for not only its great reviews in sound (and it does sound goooood. So much depth!) but I also like it best over the others for its size and looks - not to mention the warranty, shipping, and trade in ability. I'll never know what the others sound like because I havent heard any of them before but I cant imagine it being an enormous difference that would make me want to spit on my sub in shame So for now I am happy... just wish I would have gotten 2 for that price!!! Unfortunately not many matte versions exist in the outlet compared to the piano black.

I do wonder though if I trade it in for their new sealed flagship if they will give me credit for the $1599 price or the price I purchased it at... That will be the determining factor. If its huge price jump ill probably just keep the SB13U that I have and just get a second one

I'll post a pic when I straighten everything up!


I believe they credit you the price you paid minus shipping for the new sub AND the return.
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post #24678 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
Just a couple of brief comments regarding this discussion of the Ultra and ID subs. I recently had the opportunity to evaluate three popular and prominent products in my home...the JTR Captivator 1400's, PSA V1800's, and SVS PB13-Ultras. Although I auditioned and evaluated each of these subs objectively utilizing REW, I apologize as I am unable to post my results due to data loss. On paper, the performance factors of each can be compared (data-bass) to the other to determine who wins the "drag race" and even this can sometimes become debatable. Suffice to say that each of these subs performed very capably...each with their own strengths and weaknesses. However, the real epiphany for me was not who had the best numbers but which factors were most important to me, in my environment, with my content, and at my preferred listening levels. This coupled with personal subjective preferences determined that I would keep the Ultras for now. I acknowledge that of the three subs, the Ultra is the dinosaur...and like everyone...eagerly awaiting a newer version. Lastly, I find myself agreeing with the comments from @mthomas47 , @raynist , and @basshead81 relative to these companies and the current state of their products. Having worked with Ed, Jeff, and Tom, I can earnestly say...you can't make a bad decision...just need to determine the right product for you.
There is no data-bass numbers for the V1800. This is the first I have heard somebody preferring the Ultra over the other 2 models, but it does not surprise me the in the least. Sound quality is very subjective and not everybody tastes are the same. Glad you are happy with the Ultras.
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post #24679 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 06:21 AM
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Question. My PB-2000 sits on a carpeted floor with 10lb padding in the basement. Will I benefit from using something like the Auralex Acoustics SubDude-HT? If so, what would be the benefit(s)?

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post #24680 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 06:35 AM
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post #24681 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
Just a couple of brief comments regarding this discussion of the Ultra and ID subs. I recently had the opportunity to evaluate three popular and prominent products in my home...the JTR Captivator 1400's, PSA V1800's, and SVS PB13-Ultras. Although I auditioned and evaluated each of these subs objectively utilizing REW, I apologize as I am unable to post my results due to data loss. On paper, the performance factors of each can be compared (data-bass) to the other to determine who wins the "drag race" and even this can sometimes become debatable. Suffice to say that each of these subs performed very capably...each with their own strengths and weaknesses. However, the real epiphany for me was not who had the best numbers but which factors were most important to me, in my environment, with my content, and at my preferred listening levels. This coupled with personal subjective preferences determined that I would keep the Ultras for now. I acknowledge that of the three subs, the Ultra is the dinosaur...and like everyone...eagerly awaiting a newer version. Lastly, I find myself agreeing with the comments from @mthomas47 , @raynist , and @basshead81 relative to these companies and the current state of their products. Having worked with Ed, Jeff, and Tom, I can earnestly say...you can't make a bad decision...just need to determine the right product for you.
Gene,

That was a good post. If you ever have time, I would still be very interested in your subjective impressions of the three different subs you tested. Since we both have ported Ultras to use as a baseline, I think that your subjective impressions would be particularly interesting. And some others on the thread might feel the same way.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24682 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 01:49 PM
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Question:. I have two sb2000 for my media room which is 21x18x8.5 ft. Getting some jtr 228htr speakers this weekend. Thinking of upgrading my subs for the new speakers. Was thinking about either getting 2 more sb2000s to make 4 sb2000s to put in each corner of the room or switching out the two I have for sb13 ultras. Which do you think would make the biggest difference?

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post #24683 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by giftedmd View Post
Question:. I have two sb2000 for my media room which is 21x18x8.5 ft. Getting some jtr 228htr speakers this weekend. Thinking of upgrading my subs for the new speakers. Was thinking about either getting 2 more sb2000s to make 4 sb2000s to put in each corner of the room or switching out the two I have for sb13 ultras. Which do you think would make the biggest difference?

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Hi,

I think that on paper, two SB13's and 4 SB2000's would pretty well be a wash from an SPL standpoint, although four subs should give you better opportunities for a smooth frequency response.

But, I would consider going in a different direction, if I were you. Those 228's are ported speakers, capable of putting out some pretty serious SPL down to about 60Hz, or so, in-room. If I were you, I would match them with ported subs rather than sealed. Depending on how long you have had your SB's, you might be able to get a good trade-in value if you wanted to move up to a pair of ported Pluses or Ultras. With about 3200^3, I think you would be a good candidate for ported subs, in any case. With your new JTR's, I especially think so.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24684 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 05:34 PM
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No benefit...the carpet is doing the same thing.
Thanks for the feedback.

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post #24685 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 06:11 PM
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Hi,

I think that on paper, two SB13's and 4 SB2000's would pretty well be a wash from an SPL standpoint, although four subs should give you better opportunities for a smooth frequency response.

But, I would consider going in a different direction, if I were you. Those 228's are ported speakers, capable of putting out some pretty serious SPL down to about 60Hz, or so, in-room. If I were you, I would match them with ported subs rather than sealed. Depending on how long you have had your SB's, you might be able to get a good trade-in value if you wanted to move up to a pair of ported Pluses or Ultras. With about 3200^3, I think you would be a good candidate for ported subs, in any case. With your new JTR's, I especially think so.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I went with the sb2000s originally because I kept hearing the bass was tighter with sealed and the smaller subs were easier to handle. But i am more of a bass head than I realized I think. The sb2000s are good subs, the volume knob would only need to be half way to rattle the room but I felt I was missing a lot of punch in the very low end in those action movies.

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JVC x750r, Seymour AV Matinee Silver 141" 2.35:1 w/masking panels
Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242, Lyngdorf MP-50, D-sonic M3-4000+M3-800S
Panasonic UB900, Roku Ultra, Comcast Xfinity X1, Sonos Connect
JTR 228HTR x 3 LCR, JTR S8HTs x 2 surrounds, Tannoy 601DC x 4 Atmos
Powersound Audio V1800 x 4, Yamaha DSR118W MBM (5.5.4)
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post #24686 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 07:11 PM
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Thanks for the thoughtful response. I went with the sb2000s originally because I kept hearing the bass was tighter with sealed and the smaller subs were easier to handle. But i am more of a bass head than I realized I think. The sb2000s are good subs, the volume knob would only need to be half way to rattle the room but I felt I was missing a lot of punch in the very low end in those action movies.

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You are very welcome! Lot's of bass heads around here.
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post #24687 of 26593 Old 09-23-2016, 09:20 PM
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Gene,

That was a good post. If you ever have time, I would still be very interested in your subjective impressions of the three different subs you tested. Since we both have ported Ultras to use as a baseline, I think that your subjective impressions would be particularly interesting. And some others on the thread might feel the same way.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike...

Please allow me to use an automotive analogy. Let's take a Mustang GT, Corvette, and Viper. From an objective perspective, one will certainly have the most HP to weight ratio, another the fastest 1/4 mile time, another the highest top speed, and another the greatest acceleration. Things to also consider may be dealer support, resale value, etc. In any case, most would agree that these are all great cars. But which factors determine which one is right for you and the one you would purchase? Then there's the "subjective" side to contemplate. Which one is most visually appealing, which one has the greatest fun factor, which one is the most ergonomic, which one the most comfortable for everyday use, which one has the most pleasing exhaust note, etc.

Now back to subwoofers: It was early on that I realized I was not looking for the sub with necessarily the best numbers...i.e. the greatest output (loudest) or the greatest extension (lowest FR)...but rather the combination of factors that would deliver the effect/sound/aesthetics/performance that were important for me. This is the epiphany I referred to in my previous post. The choice becomes much easier/simpler when these factors are known from the onset. So for me, the Ultra was the sub of choice by a relatively small margin.
Objectively speaking, in my 4800 cf space, all the subs have more than adequate output and headroom to easily pressurize my room and satisfy "my listening levels"...typically -20 to 0dB...never beyond reference. In terms of extension, I don't have the desire to chase single digits. My happy zone is in the 15Hz-20Hz region +/- 3dB which these subs easily achieved in my room. Then there's the tactile response of mid-bass slam. Again, all the subs provided all the sensation I needed and wanted...particularly in my second row which is on a riser. At this point, I don't have a desire for a nearfield sub or tactile transducers. In summary, all the subs met my objective performance requirements equally in that all excelled and exceeded them.


This then led me to my subjective decision elements. My priorities were in no particular order...


SQ/signature:
The Ultras replaced PB-2000's and probably had an advantage. I really like the sound signature of the 2K's. With the same DNA/Pedigree, the Ultra just had more of what appealed to me with the 2K's.


Size and dimension ratio:
Based on my ideal placement and location options below my projection screen, the Ultras dimensions just happen to "fit" better physically and aesthetically.



Fit, Finish, and Visual Appeal:
Friends and family voted in favor of the Ultra. I agree and admittedly a fanboy of the metal grill.


My decision was based on establishing/understanding objectives going in...therefore, making the decision simple. In the end, for my case, the science balanced out (for my needs) and a couple of subjective items tipped the scale. Sorry...nothing really complex or revealing.

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post #24688 of 26593 Old 09-24-2016, 05:12 AM
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Hi Mike...

Please allow me to use an automotive analogy. Let's take a Mustang GT, Corvette, and Viper. From an objective perspective, one will certainly have the most HP to weight ratio, another the fastest 1/4 mile time, another the highest top speed, and another the greatest acceleration. Things to also consider may be dealer support, resale value, etc. In any case, most would agree that these are all great cars. But which factors determine which one is right for you and the one you would purchase? Then there's the "subjective" side to contemplate. Which one is most visually appealing, which one has the greatest fun factor, which one is the most ergonomic, which one the most comfortable for everyday use, which one has the most pleasing exhaust note, etc.

Now back to subwoofers: It was early on that I realized I was not looking for the sub with necessarily the best numbers...i.e. the greatest output (loudest) or the greatest extension (lowest FR)...but rather the combination of factors that would deliver the effect/sound/aesthetics/performance that were important for me. This is the epiphany I referred to in my previous post. The choice becomes much easier/simpler when these factors are known from the onset. So for me, the Ultra was the sub of choice by a relatively small margin.
Objectively speaking, in my 4800 cf space, all the subs have more than adequate output and headroom to easily pressurize my room and satisfy "my listening levels"...typically -20 to 0dB...never beyond reference. In terms of extension, I don't have the desire to chase single digits. My happy zone is in the 15Hz-20Hz region +/- 3dB which these subs easily achieved in my room. Then there's the tactile response of mid-bass slam. Again, all the subs provided all the sensation I needed and wanted...particularly in my second row which is on a riser. At this point, I don't have a desire for a nearfield sub or tactile transducers. In summary, all the subs met my objective performance requirements equally in that all excelled and exceeded them.


This then led me to my subjective decision elements. My priorities were in no particular order...


SQ/signature:
The Ultras replaced PB-2000's and probably had an advantage. I really like the sound signature of the 2K's. With the same DNA/Pedigree, the Ultra just had more of what appealed to me with the 2K's.


Size and dimension ratio:
Based on my ideal placement and location options below my projection screen, the Ultras dimensions just happen to "fit" better physically and aesthetically.



Fit, Finish, and Visual Appeal:
Friends and family voted in favor of the Ultra. I agree and admittedly a fanboy of the metal grill.


My decision was based on establishing/understanding objectives going in...therefore, making the decision simple. In the end, for my case, the science balanced out (for my needs) and a couple of subjective items tipped the scale. Sorry...nothing really complex or revealing.
Thank you very much, Gene! I like your analogy and the comparison was very helpful.
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post #24689 of 26593 Old 09-24-2016, 09:09 AM
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Great post Gene!
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Theater Setup: 5.2.5 (10.1 Auro3D) / ~3100 cu.ft. / Vaulted Ceiling
Projector:JVC DLA-X570R Screen:SI Performance Series 16:9 100" Source Player:Oppo BDP-103D/UDP-203 Pre/Pro:Marantz AV8802A Amps:Emotiva XPA-5(Fronts/Surrounds) and BasX A500(Heights) Fronts/Surrounds:Sonus Faber Venere 2.0 Center:Sonus Faber Venere Center Front/Rear Heights:Definitive Technology PM1000 / ProCenter1000(VOG) Subwoofer:Dual SVS SB-2000 Speaker Wire:Monoprice CL2 12-AWG w/Bananas ICs:BlueJeanCables/Mediabridge
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post #24690 of 26593 Old 09-25-2016, 08:11 AM
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Hi Mike, I believe you have one PC13-Ultra. I am thinking to get one to replace the two subs behind sofa, is there sound difference between standing or lay on its side?
Not long ago I went to audition the XTZ 3x12 in the Netherlands, it sounded really good, but it's simply too big to be placed behind sofa, and the PC13-Ultra is just good size. I only have 45cm between the sofa and the wall.

Thank you Mike!


Jim
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