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post #24841 of 26139 Old 10-15-2016, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Looking back I think it was a stupid question. Thought maybe the low trim level meant the sub wasn't getting enough juice at the MV of -15 but I don't think that makes any sense either. Just thought of a reason to justify the limiter engaging.

Can't imagine I reached the sub limits on a bass scene which isn't even particularly bass challenging to begin with (Thor ice battle just after the giant says "go home little princess" and his hammer drops. The hammer dropping is what caused the limiter light to engage.

Just weird given the fact that I'm sitting (measured, 2.4m away), sub levels not hot either. This isn't the biggest sub out there but nor is it a mickey mouse sub.

As I mentioned earlier, I've seen this sub playing Incredible Hulk at a friends house at loud levels and it was awesome! The scene where Hulk breaks through the glass and fights the military with the sonic cannons.

Maybe my sub is positioned in a null. Unfortunately I don't have a whole lot of options - I live in an apartmentso so my placement options are limited. I could place the sub near-field near my couch, but I shouldn't have to. 2.4 meters away is very close.
Hi Stephan,

I think you should separate the flashing light from the question of whether you are getting as much bass as you want. In my opinion it is very unlikely that your sub is hitting its limits at a trim setting of -10.5 and a MV of -15. It is possible that the limiter light is simply defective, for instance. If the sub isn't audibly distorting, I wouldn't pay much attention to the limiter light right now.

But, the truth is that it is impossible to diagnose the problem unless you are willing to engage in some experimentation. Most of us don't have unlimited opportunities to position our subs, and I agree that 2.5m should be plenty close. But, I might still try moving it a bit, while playing some bass heavy music and measuring with your SPL meter. Sometimes, even moving a sub by a few inches, or turning it 90 degrees can affect the response. You are just looking for some improvement in the bass SPL.

The second thing that I would do, wherever you end up with the sub, is to run Audyssey. That will almost certainly help, and can't possibly hurt, since your current situation is unsatisfactory. Once you have done that, it will be easier to help you troubleshoot the problem more specifically, but right now it's pure speculation as to what might be causing the issues.

Again, forget the limiter light for a moment. For all we know the light itself is malfunctioning. Microprocessors do, sometimes. All we know for sure is that your subwoofer volume is set very low--about 74db, and you aren't getting much bass, particularly tactile response. Well, you wouldn't be getting much bass with such a low sub setting. So, you need to calibrate your sub, using Audyssey, with a low trim setting such as -10.5 (but with Audyssey filters), and then you need to raise the AVR trim level until you do start to obtain some of the bass effects that you want. Until you actually try that, it's just about impossible to know what is really happening. And, that should be a perfectly safe procedure. The sub has a 5 year warranty and you aren't abusing it in any way. This is all perfectly standard practice.

Regards,
Mike

Last edited by mthomas47; 10-15-2016 at 10:58 AM.
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post #24842 of 26139 Old 10-15-2016, 11:34 AM
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Hi Stephan,

I think you should separate the flashing light from the question of whether you are getting as much bass as you want. In my opinion it is very unlikely that your sub is hitting its limits at a trim setting of -10.5 and a MV of -15. It is possible that the limiter light is simply defective, for instance. If the sub isn't audibly distorting, I wouldn't pay much attention to the limiter light right now.

But, the truth is that it is impossible to diagnose the problem unless you are willing to engage in some experimentation. Most of us don't have unlimited opportunities to position our subs, and I agree that 2.5m should be plenty close. But, I might still try moving it a bit, while playing some bass heavy music and measuring with your SPL meter. Sometimes, even moving a sub by a few inches, or turning it 90 degrees can affect the response. You are just looking for some improvement in the bass SPL.

The second thing that I would do, wherever you end up with the sub, is to run Audyssey. That will almost certainly help, and can't possibly hurt, since your current situation is unsatisfactory. Once you have done that, it will be easier to help you troubleshoot the problem more specifically, but right now it's pure speculation as to what might be causing the issues.

Again, forget the limiter light for a moment. For all we know the light itself is malfunctioning. Microprocessors do, sometimes. All we know for sure is that your subwoofer volume is set very low--about 74db, and you aren't getting much bass, particularly tactile response. Well, you wouldn't be getting much bass with such a low sub setting. So, you need to calibrate your sub, using Audyssey, with a low trim setting such as -10.5 (but with Audyssey filters), and then you need to raise the AVR trim level until you do start to obtain some of the bass effects that you want. Until you actually try that, it's just about impossible to know what is really happening. And, that should be a perfectly safe procedure. The sub has a 5 year warranty and you aren't abusing it in ay way. This is all perfectly standard practice.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike, thanks for the detailed response. When the limiter engaged I heard no distortion at all. I even felt some tactile feedback, not much, but some. Perhaps you're right and the light itself is not an indication of reaching performance limits. It may be faulty. Which sucks, but anyway.

Funnily enough, I bought the SR-6011 especially for Audyssey XT32 and (eventually) for the app that apparently I can use to shape the response curve to my liking. I'll do as you suggest and run Audyssey when I'm back at home.

I plan to take my sub to a friends house who has a dedicated cinema room and play things at proper levels to see what's what. In my apartment I'm a little apprehensive to test and retest certain bass scenes at very loud levels (-15 and higher) because of neighbors. The walls are also not very thick. I hate apartment living.

And I still have another one of these subs I'm getting to smooth the bass out. My plan for the two subs is that I'm planning on buying a house in the next 6-8 months, so the extra firepower certainly wouldn't hurt.

Also, I'm not the kind of guy that likes really bloated bass hence I prefer the bass flat with the mains. I know not everyone prefers that. I'm almost certain I have some bass peaks as well because in some scenes the bass sounds "thick", for lack of a better term.

I think the right path to take is to run Audyssey, but even better, to get a UMIK to measure my room because I have no idea what the actual response looks like. Thanks again for your advice and help in trouble shooting.
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post #24843 of 26139 Old 10-15-2016, 12:32 PM
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How about running the SB2000 without the front screen? It's pretty much a 14" cube without it, though keep in mind some space in the rear for cables. I was torn between the SB1000 and SB2000 as well, WAF being a big factor, though space constraints weren't quite as constrictive as yours. But my room was bigger too - 2700cf. IMO though, given your space constraints the SB1000 should give you nice bass with decent room gain in your room. Not thump-your-chest or wave-your-pant-legs impact, but enough to make you glad you bought it. If it were me though, I'd measure 5 or 6 times and try to squeeze an SB2000 in there - you can always send it back for free if it doesn't fit! Visually the two aren't much different, but the SB2000 has a lot more power and a gentler roll-off at the low end.

Then your next job is finding a spot to place a second one
I actually wanted the sb2000 but thought it was just a bit to big .. I saw the spec with the grill. Without that might just work
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post #24844 of 26139 Old 10-15-2016, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Hi Mike, thanks for the detailed response. When the limiter engaged I heard no distortion at all. I even felt some tactile feedback, not much, but some. Perhaps you're right and the light itself is not an indication of reaching performance limits. It may be faulty. Which sucks, but anyway.

Funnily enough, I bought the SR-6011 especially for Audyssey XT32 and (eventually) for the app that apparently I can use to shape the response curve to my liking. I'll do as you suggest and run Audyssey when I'm back at home.

I plan to take my sub to a friends house who has a dedicated cinema room and play things at proper levels to see what's what. In my apartment I'm a little apprehensive to test and retest certain bass scenes at very loud levels (-15 and higher) because of neighbors. The walls are also not very thick. I hate apartment living.

And I still have another one of these subs I'm getting to smooth the bass out. My plan for the two subs is that I'm planning on buying a house in the next 6-8 months, so the extra firepower certainly wouldn't hurt.

Also, I'm not the kind of guy that likes really bloated bass hence I prefer the bass flat with the mains. I know not everyone prefers that. I'm almost certain I have some bass peaks as well because in some scenes the bass sounds "thick", for lack of a better term.

I think the right path to take is to run Audyssey, but even better, to get a UMIK to measure my room because I have no idea what the actual response looks like. Thanks again for your advice and help in trouble shooting.
You are very welcome, Stephan, and I like your plan to try your sub at a friend's house, and also to get a UMIK. When XT-32 works as designed, it helps to get rid of the kind of bloated bass that you don't like. Once we have heard clearer bass, it's hard to go back. And, you can always adjust bass levels up, or down, depending on your personal preference, specific program material, or mood at that moment. A lot of people tweak their settings a bit. I confess to being one of them.

Good luck with this, and let us know what happens!
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post #24845 of 26139 Old 10-15-2016, 02:21 PM
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I actually wanted the sb2000 but thought it was just a bit to big .. I saw the spec with the grill. Without that might just work
I too have a space constraint. To give myself the best chance of things working, I got from Amazon a right angle connector for the coax input and a right angle power cord. It helped make a bit more space - an inch? - that I needed. I wanted to leave the grille on given my granddaughter crawling around and our decent sized dog.

Just a thought if you are close to making it work and need just a tad more room.
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post #24846 of 26139 Old 10-16-2016, 03:07 PM
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I too have a space constraint. To give myself the best chance of things working, I got from Amazon a right angle connector for the coax input and a right angle power cord. It helped make a bit more space - an inch? - that I needed. I wanted to leave the grille on given my granddaughter crawling around and our decent sized dog.

Just a thought if you are close to making it work and need just a tad more room.
Can you post up a link to those parts?

Thanks

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post #24847 of 26139 Old 10-16-2016, 03:27 PM
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I actually wanted the sb2000 but thought it was just a bit to big .. I saw the spec with the grill. Without that might just work
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Can you post up a link to those parts?

Thanks
Here is the right angle power cord. I needed a 3 foot one, but they have longer ones.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is the right angle connector for the coax. It's a package of two.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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post #24848 of 26139 Old 10-16-2016, 06:42 PM
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Here is the right angle power cord. I needed a 3 foot one, but they have longer ones.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is the right angle connector for the coax. It's a package of two.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Just ordered those myself, thanks.

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post #24849 of 26139 Old 10-16-2016, 07:15 PM
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Just received my SVS SB12 NSD sub and I'm a little disappointed so far. I'm in an apartment, and the sub is positioned about 2.5 meters away from me, so it's fairly close.

I set the gain to 40% and adjusted the level trim on my receiver. I had to dial it back all the way to -10.5 (Marantz SR-6011 receiver) to achieve an average SPL reading of 72-74 dB SPL via SPL meter.

I watched Thor, the scene when they first attack on the ice planet and when the attack begins and Thors hammer falls down I see the limiter has already engaged. This is at -15 on my MV. 72-74 dB SPL reading via test tones, so this subwoofer should be loafing still. But the limiter light flashed - I could see it from my seated position, a flash of red. I could barely feel the bass at all. I could certainly hear it, don't get me wrong, but the pressure sensation was very low. Bear in mind I haven't spent time positioning the sub, I put it right next to my main speaker fairly close to the corner.

Thor isn't even a brilliant bass demo and there shouldn't be any ultra deep bass in it, mainly sub-30 Hz+. I can't imagine a sub like this would already reach it's limiter at not outrageous sound levels given how close I am to it, and also given the overall levels.

I haven't measured my room so for all I know the room is playing havoc on the response. But still. The limiter being engaged is a problem. I'm not running Audyssey on my receiver as yet.

What I don't understand is that I've been to a friend who also owns this subwoofer and is farther away and I can feel the bass go down low. We played Incredible Hulk and I could feel the bass. It was awesome. I also don't see his limiter being engaged. Any wise words of wisdom?
It doesn't matter what SPL is when you are playing test tones at -15 MV. What matters is that at -15 MV, the LFE channel requires the sub to produce up to 100 dB peaks. This does not include any additional spl requirement from turning up the sub trim after calibration, or bass redirected from other channels. These two could add another 10 dB, or 110 dB at -15 MV. However, even at 100 dB peaks, it is not surprising that the small, low power 12" sealed SB12 NSD is hitting its limiter. It is one of the lowest output subs ever tested on Data-Bass with about 92 dB capability at 20 Hz. So even your -15 MV is asking more than the sub is capable of on low frequency bass.

It is possible that you do not have the sub calibrated properly, but it is certainly very possible to exceed your subs output limits at -15 MV. It likely won't sound bad as SVS subs tend to sound very composed right up to their output limits, but it will just stop getting louder.

The reason you are able to feel the bass in your friends room could be due to many factors. He might have a much better in room frequency response due to better placement and setup. He might have more capable main speakers that provide good bass response. His overall room volume might be smaller resulting in more room gain.

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post #24850 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 12:38 AM
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It doesn't matter what SPL is when you are playing test tones at -15 MV. What matters is that at -15 MV, the LFE channel requires the sub to produce up to 100 dB peaks. This does not include any additional spl requirement from turning up the sub trim after calibration, or bass redirected from other channels. These two could add another 10 dB, or 110 dB at -15 MV. However, even at 100 dB peaks, it is not surprising that the small, low power 12" sealed SB12 NSD is hitting its limiter. It is one of the lowest output subs ever tested on Data-Bass with about 92 dB capability at 20 Hz. So even your -15 MV is asking more than the sub is capable of on low frequency bass.

It is possible that you do not have the sub calibrated properly, but it is certainly very possible to exceed your subs output limits at -15 MV. It likely won't sound bad as SVS subs tend to sound very composed right up to their output limits, but it will just stop getting louder.

The reason you are able to feel the bass in your friends room could be due to many factors. He might have a much better in room frequency response due to better placement and setup. He might have more capable main speakers that provide good bass response. His overall room volume might be smaller resulting in more room gain.
But it doesn't make any sense. I live in a small apartment and I'm sitting 2.4 meters away. That is very close to the sub. To reach the calibration figures obviously my trim levels almost set to maximum negative values in my AVR at a 40% gain.

My friends room is larger, his sub is positioned further away and the volumes were louder too. I could feel the bass through my pant legs in the Hulk bass sequence.

In my small space the sub should be loafing along given that I'm not even running the subs hot. But as I said, I'm going to run Audyssey and then will buy the UMIK to see what is going on.

The limiter light must be faulty because that Thor bass scene wasn't even all that great and it was still triggered. Bass didn't go ultra low either. Thor isn't known as a bass intensive flick which makes this even more disturbing to me.
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post #24851 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 12:41 AM
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Those Data-bass figures are taken outside so that 92 dB 20 Hz figure is (I think) very respectable for a small sealed 12" sub. With room gain I'm sure it might be over 100 dB.

I'm not pushing the sub. I don't have a big room. I'm not sitting far enough away nor runing the sub hot like some others. And yet it STILL is engaging the limiter. That's ridiculous. At -15 MV. It's not like I'm asking for reference level output here.

Last edited by Stephan Mire; 10-17-2016 at 12:45 AM.
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post #24852 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 05:31 AM
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I currently have a PB1000 nearfield and coming from an HTiB subwoofer, I’m extremely happy with it. My main viewing/listening area is 2000 cubic feet but open to a kitchen that adds 2400 cf; the kitchen itself opens to the living room via a 7’x3’ opening (hoping I don’t have to add the living room volume which I haven’t measured but it is easily another 3000cf). I seat 13 feet from the front wall.

I tried the subwoofer on the front wall, and while the sound was good after calibration, I lost almost all the tactile effects.

I’m looking into getting dual PB2000 and place them in the front wall. The main reason I’m interested in the PB2000 it’s because I also plan on getting the SVS Ultra Bookshelves and I haven’t found nice stands for it and I’m thinking the PB2000’s will serve as nice stands

The real reason is to get a subwoofer that extends lower and fills the room better (but I do plan to use them as stands). I keep wondering what I am missing with a better subwoofer. I plan to keep the PB1000 where it is now and most of my use is movies with little music here and there. Also, at the loudest I listen at -10db

My questions:
1) Would it be ok to mix the dual PB2000’s on the front wall with the PB1000 next to the couch?
2) If I keep the PB1000, will it limit what the PB2000’s can do?
3) If I don’t keep the PB1000, will the upgrade to dual PB2000’s bring back the tactile effect?
4) Currently have a Denon x2200w, will it be easy to calibrate 3 subwoofers?
5) Is it ok to place a bookshelf speaker on top of a subwoofer?
6) Other than most likely losing the tactile effects, what else would I’d be missing if instead of getting dual PB2000’s I get another PB1000 and move them both to the front? What about one PB1000 on the front and another where it is now?
7) This one is subjective, but do you think getting the dual PB2000’s is worth it in my situation?
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post #24853 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 08:58 AM
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I currently have a PB1000 nearfield and coming from an HTiB subwoofer, I’m extremely happy with it. My main viewing/listening area is 2000 cubic feet but open to a kitchen that adds 2400 cf; the kitchen itself opens to the living room via a 7’x3’ opening (hoping I don’t have to add the living room volume which I haven’t measured but it is easily another 3000cf). I seat 13 feet from the front wall.

I tried the subwoofer on the front wall, and while the sound was good after calibration, I lost almost all the tactile effects.

I’m looking into getting dual PB2000 and place them in the front wall. The main reason I’m interested in the PB2000 it’s because I also plan on getting the SVS Ultra Bookshelves and I haven’t found nice stands for it and I’m thinking the PB2000’s will serve as nice stands

The real reason is to get a subwoofer that extends lower and fills the room better (but I do plan to use them as stands). I keep wondering what I am missing with a better subwoofer. I plan to keep the PB1000 where it is now and most of my use is movies with little music here and there. Also, at the loudest I listen at -10db

My questions:
1) Would it be ok to mix the dual PB2000’s on the front wall with the PB1000 next to the couch?
2) If I keep the PB1000, will it limit what the PB2000’s can do?
3) If I don’t keep the PB1000, will the upgrade to dual PB2000’s bring back the tactile effect?
4) Currently have a Denon x2200w, will it be easy to calibrate 3 subwoofers?
5) Is it ok to place a bookshelf speaker on top of a subwoofer?
6) Other than most likely losing the tactile effects, what else would I’d be missing if instead of getting dual PB2000’s I get another PB1000 and move them both to the front? What about one PB1000 on the front and another where it is now?
7) This one is subjective, but do you think getting the dual PB2000’s is worth it in my situation?
Hi,

That's a lot of questions, and I may not try to answer all of them. But, starting with the first, yes it would be okay to mix the two different subs, and using the PB1000 nearfield would help to make up for the discrepancy in output between the two subs. And, it will be easy to calibrate. Audyssey will simply stop EQing at the F3 point of the least capable sub in a system. So, the 1000's won't hold back the 2000's, unless it runs out of headroom, which the nearfield location will help to prevent. Audyssey will simply not be EQing the frequency range between the F3 point of the 1000 and the F3 point of the 2000's. But, that should be a very narrow range consisting of only a few Hz. And the 2000's will still play normally in that range, there just won't be any filters set. That is to avoid over-boosting a less capable sub.

The nearfield sub (within about 3') provides a tactile benefit that farfield subs don't. So, simply replacing the nearfield PB1000 with two farfield 2000's probably wouldn't be as good as having all three. If you can afford to, I would at least give it a try. Stacking the speakers on top of the subs should work just fine, although you may want to put something soft between them.

The big advantages of getting the dual 2000's would be for the lower extension and the increased SPL, in addition to the increased sense of overall bass envelopment. In my opinion, that would be a very significant upgrade, compared to just adding another PB1000. There, I think I did answer all 7 questions, although not in order. I hope that helps.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24854 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 04:56 PM
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Those Data-bass figures are taken outside so that 92 dB 20 Hz figure is (I think) very respectable for a small sealed 12" sub. With room gain I'm sure it might be over 100 dB.

I'm not pushing the sub. I don't have a big room. I'm not sitting far enough away nor runing the sub hot like some others. And yet it STILL is engaging the limiter. That's ridiculous. At -15 MV. It's not like I'm asking for reference level output here.
I hope there is something amiss with your sub or something wonky with setup causing it not to meet your expectations. However, I still contend that, even functioning properly, a single SB12 is likely to hit its limits at -15 MV on movies since this can still call on the sub to produce output in excess of 100-105 dB(Reference level of 115 dB -15 dB for MV of -15 = 100 dB, plus up to 5 or 6 dB due to bass redirected from 5 channels).
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post #24855 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 05:41 PM
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I hope there is something amiss with your sub or something wonky with setup causing it not to meet your expectations. However, I still contend that, even functioning properly, a single SB12 is likely to hit its limits at -15 MV on movies since this can still call on the sub to produce output in excess of 100-105 dB(Reference level of 115 dB -15 dB for MV of -15 = 100 dB, plus up to 5 or 6 dB due to bass redirected from 5 channels).
Hi Bear,

FWIW, I think that you are making an entirely valid point about the capability of the sub, vis-a-vis a listening volume of -15, although he is listening very close to the 2m Data-Bass quasi-anechoic test distance, and should benefit from a fair bit of room gain. That would raise his theoretical numbers.

What has confused me is why Audyssey would be setting such a low negative trim level, though. As a general rule, when a sub is struggling a bit, based on the 75db test tone, Audyssey will set a much higher trim level to compensate for the sub's inadequacy. Take the low trim level out of the equation, and this would be an easy problem to diagnose--he just needs more sub. But, that's why he, and I, keep thinking there is something wonky somewhere.

I think he plans to add a second sub, in any case, and if he is like many of us, that might not be the last upgrade he ever makes. But meanwhile, it would still be nice to understand what is going on with his system/set-up.

Regards,
Mike

Last edited by mthomas47; 10-17-2016 at 05:44 PM.
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post #24856 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 06:18 PM
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Proudly displaying my PB-2000. Unfortunately due to work I can't dial it in until Friday.
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post #24857 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 08:22 PM
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Proudly displaying my PB-2000. Unfortunately due to work I can't dial it in until Friday.
Conrat's to your new sub. You will love this bad buy!!! Have fun.

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post #24858 of 26139 Old 10-17-2016, 10:17 PM
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Hi Bear,

FWIW, I think that you are making an entirely valid point about the capability of the sub, vis-a-vis a listening volume of -15, although he is listening very close to the 2m Data-Bass quasi-anechoic test distance, and should benefit from a fair bit of room gain. That would raise his theoretical numbers.

What has confused me is why Audyssey would be setting such a low negative trim level, though. As a general rule, when a sub is struggling a bit, based on the 75db test tone, Audyssey will set a much higher trim level to compensate for the sub's inadequacy. Take the low trim level out of the equation, and this would be an easy problem to diagnose--he just needs more sub. But, that's why he, and I, keep thinking there is something wonky somewhere.

I think he plans to add a second sub, in any case, and if he is like many of us, that might not be the last upgrade he ever makes. But meanwhile, it would still be nice to understand what is going on with his system/set-up.

Regards,
Mike
Just to clarify - Audyssey has not set the trim level. I haven't run Audyssey yet. I did a manual set up. So far Audyssey is out of the equation.

Hopefully I'll have some time to dedicate to the set up this week. Just been busy.
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post #24859 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Just to clarify - Audyssey has not set the trim level. I haven't run Audyssey yet. I did a manual set up. So far Audyssey is out of the equation.

Hopefully I'll have some time to dedicate to the set up this week. Just been busy.
Thanks, Stephan! I had forgotten that, and it's an important clarification.
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post #24860 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 06:54 AM
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I happily used a pair of 10" sealed subs for several years until the amp went out on one. So, I just replaced them with a pair of SB-1000s putting them in the exact same location, volume at ~2:00, and filter at LFE. I then ran Audyssey and was disappointed in the results. Something seems to be missing when playing music. I can best describe it as the SB-1000 has an "airy puh-puh" sound instead of the solid "thump" I seemed to get from my old 10" subs. I am definitely getting deep rumbling bass from movies but even though I raised the LFE trim level, it did not help for this music issue. Do you think this is a 10" vs. 12" difference/preference? Before I was thinking of trying a 12" sealed sub from a different manufacturer but maybe I should try the 10" PB-1000?
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post #24861 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Just received my SVS SB12 NSD sub and I'm a little disappointed so far. I'm in an apartment, and the sub is positioned about 2.5 meters away from me, so it's fairly close.

I set the gain to 40% and adjusted the level trim on my receiver. I had to dial it back all the way to -10.5 (Marantz SR-6011 receiver) to achieve an average SPL reading of 72-74 dB SPL via SPL meter.

I watched Thor, the scene when they first attack on the ice planet and when the attack begins and Thors hammer falls down I see the limiter has already engaged. This is at -15 on my MV. 72-74 dB SPL reading via test tones, so this subwoofer should be loafing still. But the limiter light flashed - I could see it from my seated position, a flash of red. I could barely feel the bass at all. I could certainly hear it, don't get me wrong, but the pressure sensation was very low. Bear in mind I haven't spent time positioning the sub, I put it right next to my main speaker fairly close to the corner.

Thor isn't even a brilliant bass demo and there shouldn't be any ultra deep bass in it, mainly sub-30 Hz+. I can't imagine a sub like this would already reach it's limiter at not outrageous sound levels given how close I am to it, and also given the overall levels.

I haven't measured my room so for all I know the room is playing havoc on the response. But still. The limiter being engaged is a problem. I'm not running Audyssey on my receiver as yet.

What I don't understand is that I've been to a friend who also owns this subwoofer and is farther away and I can feel the bass go down low. We played Incredible Hulk and I could feel the bass. It was awesome. I also don't see his limiter being engaged. Any wise words of wisdom?

Two words...setup issue.


Here is my SB12-NSD in my computer setup. It shakes this 10x12 room all the way down to 16hz.




here is a spl reading from 2m.


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post #24862 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 07:39 AM
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Hi,

That's a lot of questions, and I may not try to answer all of them. But, starting with the first, yes it would be okay to mix the two different subs, and using the PB1000 nearfield would help to make up for the discrepancy in output between the two subs. And, it will be easy to calibrate. Audyssey will simply stop EQing at the F3 point of the least capable sub in a system. So, the 1000's won't hold back the 2000's, unless it runs out of headroom, which the nearfield location will help to prevent. Audyssey will simply not be EQing the frequency range between the F3 point of the 1000 and the F3 point of the 2000's. But, that should be a very narrow range consisting of only a few Hz. And the 2000's will still play normally in that range, there just won't be any filters set. That is to avoid over-boosting a less capable sub.

The nearfield sub (within about 3') provides a tactile benefit that farfield subs don't. So, simply replacing the nearfield PB1000 with two farfield 2000's probably wouldn't be as good as having all three. If you can afford to, I would at least give it a try. Stacking the speakers on top of the subs should work just fine, although you may want to put something soft between them.

The big advantages of getting the dual 2000's would be for the lower extension and the increased SPL, in addition to the increased sense of overall bass envelopment. In my opinion, that would be a very significant upgrade, compared to just adding another PB1000. There, I think I did answer all 7 questions, although not in order. I hope that helps.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you Mike.
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post #24863 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by crbaldwin View Post
I happily used a pair of 10" sealed subs for several years until the amp went out on one. So, I just replaced them with a pair of SB-1000s putting them in the exact same location, volume at ~2:00, and filter at LFE. I then ran Audyssey and was disappointed in the results. Something seems to be missing when playing music. I can best describe it as the SB-1000 has an "airy puh-puh" sound instead of the solid "thump" I seemed to get from my old 10" subs. I am definitely getting deep rumbling bass from movies but even though I raised the LFE trim level, it did not help for this music issue. Do you think this is a 10" vs. 12" difference/preference? Before I was thinking of trying a 12" sealed sub from a different manufacturer but maybe I should try the 10" PB-1000?
Hi,

It's difficult to know without more information, such as trim levels, master volume level, crossover settings, and type of music, but my initial guess is that you might be hearing the bass in music now the way it's supposed to be. SVS subs are very accurate, meaning that they don't add or subtract anything from the frequency response. They measure very flat across their operating range. And, Audyssey takes those inherently flat-sounding subs and tries to make them interact well with the room, so that they remain flat and clear sounding. If they don't sound as "thumpy" for music as the old subs did, it may simply be that you are hearing undistorted bass now, where you weren't hearing it before with your old 10" subs.

If you want to post some more information about your settings, either I or someone else may be able to offer more insight. But, meanwhile I would just listen for a while and see if perhaps I might become more accustomed to the clearer sound of the SVS subs. Sealed subs are usually pretty good in the mid-bass region (~50Hz to 100HZ), which is where the thump in music would come from, so I don't think that ported subs would help with that. They are not quite as strong in the mid-bass as comparable sealed subs. But, there may be something in your settings that could be tweaked a little. The fact that the SB1000's are delivering deep rumbling bass for movies certainly suggests that they are operating properly, and that the difference might be a flatter, clearer music response than you are used to.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24864 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 07:43 AM
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Thank you Mike.

You are very welcome!
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post #24865 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 10:49 AM
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Ok so sb-2000 should work but now I am also considering rythmik l12 as they are the same size ... tough choice.
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post #24866 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 11:06 AM
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The fact that the SB1000's are delivering deep rumbling bass for movies certainly suggests that they are operating properly, and that the difference might be a flatter, clearer music response than you are used to.
Thanks for the reply. I did consider this, but I previously had Emotiva Ultra 10 subs which I don't think would have high distortion (at least they were not the cheapest thing around ). I will continue to listen to them for a few weeks to see if I get used to them but it might be difficult to get over the initial let-down after spending a significant amount of money (for me) on these.
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post #24867 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 11:21 AM
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Thanks for the reply. I did consider this, but I previously had Emotiva Ultra 10 subs which I don't think would have high distortion (at least they were not the cheapest thing around ). I will continue to listen to them for a few weeks to see if I get used to them but it might be difficult to get over the initial let-down after spending a significant amount of money (for me) on these.
You are very welcome, and I wasn't knocking your previous subs, just speculating about possible reasons. Subs end up being a pretty big investment for all of us, so I understand.

If you still aren't quite satisfied after listening for a few days, post some information about your front speakers, and your various trim levels and crossovers, and it may be that there will be some tweaks you can do to improve your mid-bass. You said that you put the new subs exactly where the old ones were, but it might also be worth your while to experiment a little with some different locations, if that is an option in your room. Specific bass response can be pretty hard to predict, and sometimes some experimentation can be very helpful.
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post #24868 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 03:03 PM
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Conrat's to your new sub. You will love this bad buy!!! Have fun.
NO, it's a good buy, and a Bad Boy! Sorry.....
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post #24869 of 26139 Old 10-18-2016, 03:38 PM
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I happily used a pair of 10" sealed subs for several years until the amp went out on one. So, I just replaced them with a pair of SB-1000s putting them in the exact same location, volume at ~2:00, and filter at LFE. I then ran Audyssey and was disappointed in the results. Something seems to be missing when playing music. I can best describe it as the SB-1000 has an "airy puh-puh" sound instead of the solid "thump" I seemed to get from my old 10" subs. I am definitely getting deep rumbling bass from movies but even though I raised the LFE trim level, it did not help for this music issue. Do you think this is a 10" vs. 12" difference/preference? Before I was thinking of trying a 12" sealed sub from a different manufacturer but maybe I should try the 10" PB-1000?
My experiences were the same after replacing a 2.1 system with 6.5" ported subwoofer, with receiver/separates/sb-1000.

I also thought, where is the bass?....turns out I was not used to flat response of a better sub. The Sb1000 doesn't have the midbass hump of other consumer subs. To compare, I bought a Dynamo 700 and AudioEngine S8 and did not have the same bass issues, but I could hear how the SVS was more detailed and clean.

I found it very difficult to balance the sb1000 for music and anything other than movies with LFE soundtrack. I found myself constantly adjusting Audyssey sound modes and ended up returning everything until I gain more experience with REW etc.

I ended up with the 2.1 Paradigm Millenia CT and am enjoying the receiver-less simplicity. Not sure why I can just throw the 2.1 systems in my room and it just works. Couldn't get Audyssey to sound balanced in the room with the sb1000, but I like the size and that it's offered in white I may try separates again this winter.

Good luck.

Try turning the sub gain to ~2 O'clock and play with Audyssey trims.

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Last edited by hpp8140; 10-18-2016 at 03:41 PM.
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NO, it's a good buy, and a Bad Boy! Sorry.....
Sorry it is iPhone typo. It is what happend when you text and drive

so let's do it again:

Congrat's to your new sub. You will love this bad boy!!! Have fun with it!!!!
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