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post #24931 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyknoxsvill View Post
Attachment 1731945

This gives you an idead of the room (dont mind the installer lol)
Probably not the most flattering perspective.

Some people can do fine with a small sealed sub in a room that size. And, some people would literally be stacking subs to the ceiling (no exaggeration) in that room. So, it's pretty tough to predict exactly what will satisfy someone. But, if you were accustomed to having a ported sub, you may be accustomed to having the higher SPL from about 50Hz down. And, you may really miss it. If so, I think that you probably would be happier exchanging the SB2000 for a PB2000.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24932 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 10:25 AM
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I called SVS and they agreed that I would be better off with the PB-2000. Im using the sub for 100% movies/TV. I perfer the punch of a ported sub over a sealed
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post #24933 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by murlidher View Post
I got the additional pb1000 a while back. Placed one front and the other close to MLP.

So I need to keep the phase 0 for both, crossover to AVR (SR6009) settings, volume level at 12, and then run the audyssey calibration. Post the audyssey, I need to run the sub pink noise and change the phase of sub close to MLP where I get the maximum DB level.
You want to set phase on the closer sub prior to running Audyssey.



Quote:
1) normally I increase the db level 3 to 4 db higher then what the AVR leaves while using single sub. Now if I need to do the same, is it same process for dual sub ?
Yes. Just make sure to change each sub trim value equally if your AVR doesn't have an option to adjust both at the same time.


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2) apart hearing the sub sound during audyssey pink noise, I do not hear anything if i go to test tone - sub at later stage. If that's common, will the spl meter (Android app) be able to hear it properly?
You should definitely be able to hear the test tone from the sub(s). Something is not right there.

Where does Audyssey set your sub trims?
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post #24934 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You want to set phase on the closer sub prior to running Audyssey.





Yes. Just make sure to change each sub trim value equally if your AVR doesn't have an option to adjust both at the same time.




You should definitely be able to hear the test tone from the sub(s). Something is not right there.

Where does Audyssey set your sub trims?
1) When I go to levels - test tone start, I do not hear any sound when I move it to sub woofer ( it was never used to sound even before). However during audyssey, when it tests the sub , I hear sound from sub as usual. Is it not common?

2) I set 0 as phase for both subs prior running audyssey. The audyssey set -10 after running them.

3) mine is audyssey multeq xt Marantz - sr6009. It only shows one sub in the display, I think it is common.

Please assist further.

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post #24935 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murlidher View Post
1) When I go to levels - test tone start, I do not hear any sound when I move it to sub woofer ( it was never used to sound even before). However during audyssey, when it tests the sub , I hear sound from sub as usual. Is it not common?
Nope, not common at all. Very unusual.


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2) I set 0 as phase for both subs prior running audyssey. The audyssey set -10 after running them.
That sub trim level is perfectly acceptable. However, if you were to set phase before Audyssey, you will more than likely have to reduce the gain on both subs so that you stay in range on the initial sub trim (above -12).


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3) mine is audyssey multeq xt Marantz - sr6009. It only shows one sub in the display, I think it is common.
Your AVR only supports single sub calibration although it has dual subwoofer outputs (correct?). I thought that it might have different level settings for each output...apparently not.


Some AVRs allow you to adjust MV during test tones, some do not...but most will default to 0MV when you start the test tones. Maybe yours is different though and remembers the last MV setting. When you try to play the subwoofer test tone, try increasing your master volume. Can you hear the tone now? If so, at what master volume level does it become audible?

FYI, the master volume should be set to "0dB" while using the test tones.
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post #24936 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Nope, not common at all. Very unusual.




That sub trim level is perfectly acceptable. However, if you were to set phase before Audyssey, you will more than likely have to reduce the gain on both subs so that you stay in range on the initial sub trim (above -12).




Your AVR only supports single sub calibration although it has dual subwoofer outputs (correct?). I thought that it might have different level settings for each output...apparently not.


Some AVRs allow you to adjust MV during test tones, some do not...but most will default to 0MV when you start the test tones. Maybe yours is different though and remembers the last MV setting. When you try to play the subwoofer test tone, try increasing your master volume. Can you hear the tone now? If so, at what master volume level does it become audible?

FYI, the master volume should be set to "0dB" while using the test tones.
Ok I could hear the test tone from sub when I increase it to 0 and accordingly the phase 180 was the loudest from the sub close to MLP. So I set the phase to 180. Is it necessary to run the audyssey again?

I was told that the MV need not be set to 0 for running audyssey as it likely to take care of its own.( Even JDS confirmed me once). However I am fine to keep it 0 only for setting the phase of the second sub. Please confirm this .

I have increased the sub trim from -10 to -6 db.

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post #24937 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 11:38 AM
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Also from -31 db of mv I could hear the sub under test tone, FYI

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post #24938 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murlidher View Post
Also from -31 db of mv I could hear the sub under test tone, FYI

Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk
Alan's point about raising the MV to 0.0, was well taken for that reason. I always adjust my sub trim levels in my Audio Menu, rather than going into the test tones in the Speaker Menu. But, on the occasions that I have played the test tones through the subs in the Speaker Menu, I have only been able to hear a very low rumble. You would have to either turn up your MV more, or get quite close to the subs, to hear anything at even -20 or -25 MV, much less at -31 MV. That equates to about 50db, and at that volume, most bass frequencies would be completely inaudible.
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post #24939 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by murlidher View Post
Ok I could hear the test tone from sub when I increase it to 0 and accordingly the phase 180 was the loudest from the sub close to MLP.
Great! Glad we figured that one out.


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So I set the phase to 180. Is it necessary to run the audyssey again?
Yes. The combined frequency response of your subs has changed significantly now that they are in phase.


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I was told that the MV need not be set to 0 for running audyssey as it likely to take care of its own.( Even JDS confirmed me once). However I am fine to keep it 0 only for setting the phase of the second sub. Please confirm this .
As JD confirmed, the MV will be completely ignored by Audyssey. Yes, you should have the MV set to 0 when using the test tones in the speaker setup menu. This should produce 75dB at the MLP using an SPL meter set to C weighting/slow.


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I have increased the sub trim from -10 to -6 db.
Perfectly acceptable. This is where "preference" comes in to play.
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post #24940 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Alan's point about raising the MV to 0.0, was well taken for that reason. I always adjust my sub trim levels in my Audio Menu, rather than going into the test tones in the Speaker Menu. But, on the occasions that I have played the test tones through the subs in the Speaker Menu, I have only been able to hear a very low rumble. You would have to either turn up your MV more, or get quite close to the subs, to hear anything at even -20 or -25 MV, much less at -31 MV. That equates to about 50db, and at that volume, most bass frequencies would be completely inaudible.
Good points Mike, but be careful with recommending to change the sub level in the audio menu. On my AVR (and at least a few others) the audio "Subwoofer Level" adjustment is per input and this is why I always use the Speaker Setup/Test Tones menu that I know is global.
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post #24941 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 12:03 PM
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Thanks for your great help. Now will again run the audyssey with lower MV volume since the phase is set. Setting the 180 phase near the MLP was louder. Now do you see the sub trim may go to -12db as the combined volume may be too high or should I reduce the volume level back from 12 o clock to 10 or 11?

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post #24942 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 12:20 PM
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Moving dual subs from a big open space to a smaller room - its like a free upgrade. We are watching all our action movies again

I could probably get away with one now but don't tell my wife that LOL
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post #24943 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Probably not the most flattering perspective.

Some people can do fine with a small sealed sub in a room that size. And, some people would literally be stacking subs to the ceiling (no exaggeration) in that room. So, it's pretty tough to predict exactly what will satisfy someone. But, if you were accustomed to having a ported sub, you may be accustomed to having the higher SPL from about 50Hz down. And, you may really miss it. If so, I think that you probably would be happier exchanging the SB2000 for a PB2000.

Regards,
Mike
I am using 2 SVS model 20-39CS+ subs which I bot in 2002 along with a Samson S1000 amp. Been rock solid since then UNTIL Saturday night--and my Samson smoked--literally
Need to find a new amp to replace the defunct Samson
Looking for recommendations


thanks Dave
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post #24944 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Good points Mike, but be careful with recommending to change the sub level in the audio menu. On my AVR (and at least a few others) the audio "Subwoofer Level" adjustment is per input and this is why I always use the Speaker Setup/Test Tones menu that I know is global.
Hi Alan,

I wasn't so much recommending using the Audio Menu, as I was noting that I do use it almost exclusively for sub trim adjustments (and for CC adjustments, as well). And, as has been discussed many times on the Audyssey thread, whether or not those adjustments will be global or not will indeed depend on the brand/model of AVR. On mine, they are always global adjustments. So, I guess that's something that people need to experiment with to find out. Using the Audio Menu is certainly much easier if it does work globally on your particular unit.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24945 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Citizen Sane View Post
I am using 2 SVS model 20-39CS+ subs which I bot in 2002 along with a Samson S1000 amp. Been rock solid since then UNTIL Saturday night--and my Samson smoked--literally
Need to find a new amp to replace the defunct Samson
Looking for recommendations

thanks Dave
Hi Dave,

I'm sorry to hear about that. I don't have a clue what kind of replacement amp you should get, unless you can find another Samson S1000. If I were you, I might email Ed Mullen, at SVS, and ask him what a good replacement amp might be. Perhaps he can suggest a good alternative, in the event that you can't find another Samson.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24946 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by murlidher View Post
Thanks for your great help. Now will again run the audyssey with lower MV volume since the phase is set. Setting the 180 phase near the MLP was louder. Now do you see the sub trim may go to -12db as the combined volume may be too high or should I reduce the volume level back from 12 o clock to 10 or 11?

Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk
Yes, the combined level of your subs now that they are in phase will more than likely generate a -12dB result from Audyssey since you were at -10dB before.

Just turn both subs down a little bit, then run the first Audyssey mic position and hit "Calculate" and check the sub trim. If it is acceptable, run the full Audyssey calibration. If not, turn the subs down a bit more until you get an acceptable sub trim.
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post #24947 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 10:11 PM
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Dose SB-2000 has servo technology? I am comparing with the Rythmik either L12 or F12.
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post #24948 of 25791 Old 10-24-2016, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Dose SB-2000 has servo technology?
No.

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post #24949 of 25791 Old 10-25-2016, 02:07 AM
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Then the next question is whether there is advantage of having servo or just a hype.
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post #24950 of 25791 Old 10-25-2016, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, the combined level of your subs now that they are in phase will more than likely generate a -12dB result from Audyssey since you were at -10dB before.

Just turn both subs down a little bit, then run the first Audyssey mic position and hit "Calculate" and check the sub trim. If it is acceptable, run the full Audyssey calibration. If not, turn the subs down a bit more until you get an acceptable sub trim.
Thanks for your time yesterday. I initially wrote to SVS on same query and I got following answer from them. I however did not went through these steps instead followed your guidance. Kindly have a look and suggest as I have to run the audyssey anyway again later tonight since it was not properly set last time. Thanks.

Svs response below:

Here's the step-by-step for manually phasing duals at different distances:

 

Subwoofer #1 :

Set phase to 0Set the low pass to full clockwise (disable).Set the AVR sub channel level to 0.Play the AVR subwoofer calibration tone.Adjust the gain on the subwoofer until the SPL meter reads 75 dB C/Slow at the listening position.

 

Subwoofer #2 (closer to listening position):

Set phase to 0Set the low pass to full clockwise (disable).Set the AVR sub channel level to 0.Play the AVR subwoofer calibration tone.Adjust the gain on the subwoofer until the SPL meter reads 75 dB C/Slow at the listening position.

 

Subwoofer #1 and #2 Both On:

Play the AVR subwoofer calibration tone.Note the combined SPL on the meter. Adjust the phase on subwoofer #2 from 0-180.  Note the changes in SPL as you adjust the phase.  Select the phase setting on subwoofer #2 which provides the highest combined SPL reading on the meter.



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post #24951 of 25791 Old 10-25-2016, 10:05 AM
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^^^

Basically the same thing I directed you to do.
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post #24952 of 25791 Old 10-25-2016, 10:15 AM
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Ok, since I didn't do the separate sub db level change, I was confused. I straight away (today) kept it at 11 o clock position, on both, set the MV to 0 volume, and checking the spl meter. Infact the readings were not that great different in each phase (in the sub close to MLP), never the less, I kept the phase a bit past 12o clock.

Then ran the audyssey, which set it -9db. Now listening at -5db after manually increasing it.

I think in future when I upgrade my AVR to next level audyssey, I need not worry this much

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post #24953 of 25791 Old 10-25-2016, 07:52 PM
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So...I impulsively purchased ultra towers from a member here.

I intend to run them in 2.0 (after playing with them in 3.1).

Any amp recommendations running these full? I expect to need a fairly hefty amp. Initially I will use my outlaw 5000 but thinking I need something more beefy for 2.0. Emotiva XPA-2 maybe or Rotel 1080. Something along those lines (mentioned those two specifically because they are on my local craigslist).

Also maybe bi-amp with the outlaw 5000, to make sure each is getting enough pep. I was thinking of a tidy little integrated amp, but most of those are 100wpc or less. My assumption is that the towers will want a lot of power when cranked for the lower frequencies.

Last edited by bkevind; 10-25-2016 at 07:59 PM. Reason: typo
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post #24954 of 25791 Old 10-25-2016, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkevind View Post
So...I impulsively purchased ultra towers from a member here.

I intend to run them in 2.0 (after playing with them in 3.1).

Any amp recommendations running these full? I expect to need a fairly hefty amp. Initially I will use my outlaw 5000 but thinking I need something more beefy for 2.0. Emotiva XPA-2 maybe or Rotel 1080. Something along those lines (mentioned those two specifically because they are on my local craigslist).

Also maybe bi-amp with the outlaw 5000, to make sure each is getting enough pep. I was thinking of a tidy little integrated amp, but most of those are 100wpc or less. My assumption is that the towers will want a lot of power when cranked for the lower frequencies.
Before spending money on an amp, unless you just want to buy one, I'd just try the 5000 with them. At 88db sensitivity rating, I think you will be surprised. I use a 5000 as my amp, and it works rather well...Although I do use different speakers.
I wouldn't bother with bi-amping, it won't make much difference, others may disagree.
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post #24955 of 25791 Old 10-25-2016, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Then the next question is whether there is advantage of having servo or just a hype.
You'll get answers going both ways on this question. IMO, a quality sub setup properly, will be articulate enough so most people would not be able to hear any difference between the two...

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post #24956 of 25791 Old 10-25-2016, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post
Before spending money on an amp, unless you just want to buy one, I'd just try the 5000 with them. At 88db sensitivity rating, I think you will be surprised. I use a 5000 as my amp, and it works rather well...Although I do use different speakers.
I wouldn't bother with bi-amping, it won't make much difference, others may disagree.
The 5000 is in duty for my ultra bookshelf LCR, and surrounds whenever I get around to running wires.

So it will be temporary for testing only. WAF vs large black towers in place of the cute white bookshelf speakers on their cute white stands.

The ultra's seem power hungry in spite of their rating. I can only assume it's much more so with the towers due to the two 8" drivers in each. I expect they will want draw a lot of juice when asked to delve into their limits. I have read a lot about bi-amping, and I tend to agree with the sentiment. I was thinking more about borrowing the 5000 and using 4 of the channels to drive the ultra towers in 2.0, more so to give it more when needed. Passive biamping maybe pointless though. Better just to get a more powerful 2ch if needed.

Regardless, I need a new power source. Although I do wonder since my 3.1 is crossed over at 80hz, if my little Yamaha RX-860 would suffice. Worth a test anyway.

I just realized this SVS Owners thread is in the subwoofer, bass and transducers forum. Sorry about that!

On that topic I'm enjoying my SB13-Ultra very much, replaced a SB-1000. Yesterday I added the sb-1000 back with the SB-13, not expecting much. I was quite surprised at the difference. Not EQ'd at all so there are all sorts of hot spots as you would expect. Still seems better than without. An oddball match, though they are both sealed subs, they are quite far apart in capabilities. I guess it's time to start looking at the stuff I need to EQ. Then another SB13 to do it right.
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post #24957 of 25791 Old 10-26-2016, 02:34 AM
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Ok, so a while back I asked about the difference between what port chuffing sounded like versus a loose port component on my PB1000. I finally recorded the noise, and I'd like some more experienced opinions

The first video is audio from a video game. Some of the songs in the game cause the noise on certain beats.

The second and third videos are frequency sweep videos from the YouTube. The noise happens right around the 50hz mark.

I'm not sure if chuffing is a frequency specific thing...I always thought it was about the volume of air being moved. AVR trim at -9.5, gain at 2/3.

Videos:

Mr. Pibb > Dr. Pepper > Everything Else
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Last edited by Jaurhead; 10-26-2016 at 02:40 AM.
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post #24958 of 25791 Old 10-26-2016, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaurhead View Post
Ok, so a while back I asked about the difference between what port chuffing sounded like versus a loose port component on my PB1000. I finally recorded the noise, and I'd like some more experienced opinions

The first video is audio from a video game. Some of the songs in the game cause the noise on certain beats.

The second and third videos are frequency sweep videos from the YouTube. The noise happens right around the 50hz mark.

I'm not sure if chuffing is a frequency specific thing...I always thought it was about the volume of air being moved. AVR trim at -9.5, gain at 2/3.

Videos:
That is a rattle. Not sure if they can be tightened. Ask SVS for advice.

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post #24959 of 25791 Old 10-26-2016, 12:12 PM
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The 5000 is in duty for my ultra bookshelf LCR, and surrounds whenever I get around to running wires.

So it will be temporary for testing only. WAF vs large black towers in place of the cute white bookshelf speakers on their cute white stands.

The ultra's seem power hungry in spite of their rating. I can only assume it's much more so with the towers due to the two 8" drivers in each. I expect they will want draw a lot of juice when asked to delve into their limits. I have read a lot about bi-amping, and I tend to agree with the sentiment. I was thinking more about borrowing the 5000 and using 4 of the channels to drive the ultra towers in 2.0, more so to give it more when needed. Passive biamping maybe pointless though. Better just to get a more powerful 2ch if needed.

Regardless, I need a new power source. Although I do wonder since my 3.1 is crossed over at 80hz, if my little Yamaha RX-860 would suffice. Worth a test anyway.

I just realized this SVS Owners thread is in the subwoofer, bass and transducers forum. Sorry about that!

On that topic I'm enjoying my SB13-Ultra very much, replaced a SB-1000. Yesterday I added the sb-1000 back with the SB-13, not expecting much. I was quite surprised at the difference. Not EQ'd at all so there are all sorts of hot spots as you would expect. Still seems better than without. An oddball match, though they are both sealed subs, they are quite far apart in capabilities. I guess it's time to start looking at the stuff I need to EQ. Then another SB13 to do it right.
Hi,

FWIW, I think that posting about your Ultra speakers here is fine. If you are concerned about needing extra power to drive your new towers in Large mode, that sounds like a really great opportunity to use your new SB13. Passive bi-amping really would be useless, as you noted, in terms of having any additional headroom whatsoever. If I were you, I would try the towers in Large, with whatever amp you have (100 watts should be fine), and then add your sub(s) and compare the sound quality to Small with a crossover of 40, or 60, or whatever you choose.

Unless Large with no sub sounds audibly better than Small 40/60/80, I would employ the SB13 as it was designed to be used. I wouldn't bother investing in a more powerful amp to run the towers in Large mode unless I was absolutely convinced that I needed it, because I definitely preferred running them that way. SVS always recommends using a sub, although they do advertise a lower frequency response on the Ultra towers than on their other speakers.

You mentioned combining the SB13 and the SB1000. That does sound like a strange combination, but you never know what will work until you try. I would be a little concerned that if you try to push your SB13 a bit for 5.1 movies, you might leave the SB1000 behind, but like you, I wouldn't be afraid to experiment. If you could move the little guy very close to your listening position, it would help to level the playing field as far as trim level and MV are concerned.

Regards,
Mike
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post #24960 of 25791 Old 10-26-2016, 01:20 PM
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Hi,

FWIW, I think that posting about your Ultra speakers here is fine. If you are concerned about needing extra power to drive your new towers in Large mode, that sounds like a really great opportunity to use your new SB13. Passive bi-amping really would be useless, as you noted, in terms of having any additional headroom whatsoever. If I were you, I would try the towers in Large, with whatever amp you have (100 watts should be fine), and then add your sub(s) and compare the sound quality to Small with a crossover of 40, or 60, or whatever you choose.

Unless Large with no sub sounds audibly better than Small 40/60/80, I would employ the SB13 as it was designed to be used. I wouldn't bother investing in a more powerful amp to run the towers in Large mode unless I was absolutely convinced that I needed it, because I definitely preferred running them that way. SVS always recommends using a sub, although they do advertise a lower frequency response on the Ultra towers than on their other speakers.

You mentioned combining the SB13 and the SB1000. That does sound like a strange combination, but you never know what will work until you try. I would be a little concerned that if you try to push your SB13 a bit for 5.1 movies, you might leave the SB1000 behind, but like you, I wouldn't be afraid to experiment. If you could move the little guy very close to your listening position, it would help to level the playing field as far as trim level and MV are concerned.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike.

For the short term, I will replace the bookshelves with the towers in our living room 3.1, powered by the outlaw amp, and probably will be fine. I will experiment with full and crossed over as is usually recommended with a sub. Not likely much of a benefit over the ultra bookshelf speakers crossed at 80. I will of course listen to them in this location in full range as 2.0 as well.

However the towers will be relocated fairly quickly (office, bedroom, garage, TBD). In this location they will be strictly 2.0 and of course run in full range.

This is why I'm pondering what to power them with. One thing I could do is "steal" the outlaw from the living room, letting the Yamaha power the 3 channels. Since they are crossed at 80hz, I wonder if I'll miss much of anything.

I've been thinking about pairing the ultras with a "warm" sounding pre/amp (if you believe in such a thing - I do) to give a little different character to what I think is a rather clinical sound.

Adding the SB1000 has been interesting. Both subs are on the front wall, SB13 in the right corner, SB-1000 on the left side (no corner). From the MLP, the sound is quite a bit fuller in a good way. Certain frequencies are grossly exaggerated, which is to be expected with a non-eq'd dual sub, especially of such differing capability. This "room" is an audio nightmare and will not be changed for the better. (maybe some incidental additions, like a throw rug and curtains). In any case, it is worth getting the right equipment to make the most of this setup, I need it anyway whether I stick with both, only the SB13, or add a second SB13 later.
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