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post #25711 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by B T C View Post
What would two SB12-NSD subs do in a 30x20x9 space? This area serves as the primary living space, kitchen and dining room. It's one big, open room with a hall, entrance area to the garage and laundry room, and an entrance to a master bedroom coming off of it. I'm currently running four Polk LSiM703s and a LSiM706c. I'm impressed enough with the output of those speakers that I'm not even sure I need a sub, or subs, but I guess I've always intended to get a sub.

I like the fact that the sealed 12" subs are small, which should make them fairly easy to incorporate into the room. At one time I was considering a PB12+, but that sub is much larger, would be harder to incorporate into my room and is currently unavailable in the outlet. I assume it would have quite a bit more output that the two sealed subs? I know nothing about speaker/sub output, reading charts etc., which leaves the door of opportunity wide open for beer to play a major role in my decision making process.
For a space that big i would think you would need two SB13 Ultras.

I had a SB12 NSD in my 12 x14 bedroom and it did fine

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post #25712 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by B T C View Post
What would two SB12-NSD subs do in a 30x20x9 space? This area serves as the primary living space, kitchen and dining room. It's one big, open room with a hall, entrance area to the garage and laundry room, and an entrance to a master bedroom coming off of it. I'm currently running four Polk LSiM703s and a LSiM706c. I'm impressed enough with the output of those speakers that I'm not even sure I need a sub, or subs, but I guess I've always intended to get a sub.

I like the fact that the sealed 12" subs are small, which should make them fairly easy to incorporate into the room. At one time I was considering a PB12+, but that sub is much larger, would be harder to incorporate into my room and is currently unavailable in the outlet. I assume it would have quite a bit more output that the two sealed subs? I know nothing about speaker/sub output, reading charts etc., which leaves the door of opportunity wide open for beer to play a major role in my decision making process.
Hi,

With enough beer, any subwoofer choice would be a good one. But, leaving beer out of the equation for a moment, I would counsel against going with smaller sealed subs in a 5400^3 space, open to other rooms. Ported subs are bigger specifically to enable them to go lower, louder than sealed subs. For movies, low extension--below 30Hz, and below 20Hz, is the goal. That's the low bass and special bass effects we hear in movies. But, our hearing is not as sensitive at those frequencies, so it takes more SPL (sound pressure level) to make those frequencies clearly audible in relation to the frequencies we hear better.

In a small room, the room itself can amplify low bass frequencies, due to room modes which reinforce very low frequencies, in a way that makes them more audible. Larger rooms don't get that advantage, and subs in those rooms have to manufacture more low frequency SPL on their own. That's where ported subs, such as the PB2000 come in. From about 30Hz down, they can produce 2 to 2.5 times the SPL that an SB2000 can. So, in a large room, for movie watching, that low frequency volume is very important.

To answer your question: what would would two SB2000's do in the space you described, I would say not very much, particularly compared to two PB2000's. I don't think you would really notice the size difference between the two subs that much in a room that big. My room size is just slightly bigger than that. But, having said all that, if you haven't had an opportunity to listen to movies (especially action movies) with good subs, you may not realize what you are missing. Think IMAX theater.

If I were you, I would try to stretch my budget to dual PB2000's or PC2000's. But, there would be no harm in trying a pair of SB2000's, using the free-trial period. If you are like most of us, once you get a taste of the way movies can sound with good subs, you are likely to want more. If so, you will have upgrade opportunities, and if not, you will be all set.

Regards,
Mike
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post #25713 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
For a space that big i would think you would need two SB13 Ultras.

I had a SB12 NSD in my 12 x14 bedroom and it did fine
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Hi,

With enough beer, any subwoofer choice would be a good one. But, leaving beer out of the equation for a moment, I would counsel against going with smaller sealed subs in a 5400^3 space, open to other rooms. Ported subs are bigger specifically to enable them to go lower, louder than sealed subs. For movies, low extension--below 30Hz, and below 20Hz, is the goal. That's the low bass and special bass effects we hear in movies. But, our hearing is not as sensitive at those frequencies, so it takes more SPL (sound pressure level) to make those frequencies clearly audible in relation to the frequencies we hear better.

In a small room, the room itself can amplify low bass frequencies, due to room modes which reinforce very low frequencies, in a way that makes them more audible. Larger rooms don't get that advantage, and subs in those rooms have to manufacture more low frequency SPL on their own. That's where ported subs, such as the PB2000 come in. From about 30Hz down, they can produce 2 to 2.5 times the SPL that an SB2000 can. So, in a large room, for movie watching, that low frequency volume is very important.

To answer your question: what would would two SB2000's do in the space you described, I would say not very much, particularly compared to two PB2000's. I don't think you would really notice the size difference between the two subs that much in a room that big. My room size is just slightly bigger than that. But, having said all that, if you haven't had an opportunity to listen to movies (especially action movies) with good subs, you may not realize what you are missing. Think IMAX theater.

If I were you, I would try to stretch my budget to dual PB2000's or PC2000's. But, there would be no harm in trying a pair of SB2000's, using the free-trial period. If you are like most of us, once you get a taste of the way movies can sound with good subs, you are likely to want more. If so, you will have upgrade opportunities, and if not, you will be all set.

Regards,
Mike
I kinda figured the responses were going to be along these lines.

Mike, I was actually referring to the SB12-NSD, which is currently on sale for 399.99 in the SVS outlet. I'm assuming since it's older that it's a bit less capable than the SB2000, but I'm not sure by how much.

What about the SB13-Ultra? Based upon price alone, I'm assuming those would have quite a bit more output than the sealed 12" units. How would it stack up against some of the ported subs? I guess I need to figure out how to interpret specs & charts so I don't have to ask those types of questions.

I would have to say that size is definitely a factor for me. Even though the measurements may be considered large, the room itself does not seem big to me, particularly when factoring in the furniture, the "island in the kitchen", the stove, the fridge, the dining area table, the 65" television & stand, the four bookshelf speakers scattered about etc.

I think it would be easier to work in two smaller sealed subs than one large ported sub. Two SB13-Ultras would definitely be a lot more money, so if I went that route I'm sure I would be purchasing them individually. I think I would prefer the "oak" finish, which isn't currently available in the outlet. The outlet 13s were also selling for $999.99 not that long ago, so the current sale price does not seem great.
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post #25714 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 11:03 AM
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Any one using SVS elevation Atmos set up? Can u pls post your pictures and comments.


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post #25715 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B T C View Post
I kinda figured the responses were going to be along these lines.

Mike, I was actually referring to the SB12-NSD, which is currently on sale for 399.99 in the SVS outlet. I'm assuming since it's older that it's a bit less capable than the SB2000, but I'm not sure by how much.

What about the SB13-Ultra? Based upon price alone, I'm assuming those would have quite a bit more output than the sealed 12" units. How would it stack up against some of the ported subs? I guess I need to figure out how to interpret specs & charts so I don't have to ask those types of questions.

I would have to say that size is definitely a factor for me. Even though the measurements may be considered large, the room itself does not seem big to me, particularly when factoring in the furniture, the "island in the kitchen", the stove, the fridge, the dining area table, the 65" television & stand, the four bookshelf speakers scattered about etc.

I think it would be easier to work in two smaller sealed subs than one large ported sub. Two SB13-Ultras would definitely be a lot more money, so if I went that route I'm sure I would be purchasing them individually. I think I would prefer the "oak" finish, which isn't currently available in the outlet. The outlet 13s were also selling for $999.99 not that long ago, so the current sale price does not seem great.
Hi,

The SB12-NSD would be almost identical in it's frequency response (about .6db less) compared to the SB2000. I'm going to add a link to a comparison chart along with some simple explanation of how to interpret it. It's a little intimidating (or confusing) for everyone at first. The SB13 Ultra would be stronger through the great majority of the frequency range than the PB12-NSD. Only from about 25Hz down would it lose a little SPL, in comparison to the ported sub. That's where the ported sub's real strength lies.

Most of the bass we hear in music is above about 50Hz, with very little indeed below 30Hz, unless we listen to some kinds of bass-heavy electronic music. With 5.1 movies, and particularly with action movies, there is much more low bass--say below about 30Hz. That's where ported subs tend to shine in larger rooms. But, not everyone values that really low bass equally, and an SB13 Ultra would still be a very good performer, in my opinion.

When you look at the chart, I am linking, just compare the SVS PB12-NSD to the SB12-NSD, and to the SB13 Ultra. They are listed together near the bottom of the page. The columns show the maximum output for each sub, at each frequency. And, now that you are hearing that from about 50Hz up is mid-bass (chest-punch) territory, and from about 30Hz down is where the really low bass resides, you will be in a better position to interpret the chart. Someone described the difference in movies between mid-bass, and low bass, as the difference between bang and boom, and I think that sums it up pretty well.

http://www.data-bass.com/systems

If you do decide to wait for an Outlet SB13 in the oak finish, don't worry that you will be stuck if you try it. I think you will like it very much, but return shipping, and/or exchange for a different model, is quite easy with the SVS Customer Bill of Rights.

Regards,
Mike

Last edited by mthomas47; Yesterday at 11:35 AM. Reason: Typo
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post #25716 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 02:12 PM
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Size wise a SB16 Ultra could be the way to go since it is much smaller than many ported subs.

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Hi,

The SB12-NSD would be almost identical in it's frequency response (about .6db less) compared to the SB2000. I'm going to add a link to a comparison chart along with some simple explanation of how to interpret it. It's a little intimidating (or confusing) for everyone at first. The SB13 Ultra would be stronger through the great majority of the frequency range than the PB12-NSD. Only from about 25Hz down would it lose a little SPL, in comparison to the ported sub. That's where the ported sub's real strength lies.

Most of the bass we hear in music is above about 50Hz, with very little indeed below 30Hz, unless we listen to some kinds of bass-heavy electronic music. With 5.1 movies, and particularly with action movies, there is much more low bass--say below about 30Hz. That's where ported subs tend to shine in larger rooms. But, not everyone values that really low bass equally, and an SB13 Ultra would still be a very good performer, in my opinion.

When you look at the chart, I am linking, just compare the SVS PB12-NSD to the SB12-NSD, and to the SB13 Ultra. They are listed together near the bottom of the page. The columns show the maximum output for each sub, at each frequency. And, now that you are hearing that from about 50Hz up is mid-bass (chest-punch) territory, and from about 30Hz down is where the really low bass resides, you will be in a better position to interpret the chart. Someone described the difference in movies between mid-bass, and low bass, as the difference between bang and boom, and I think that sums it up pretty well.

http://www.data-bass.com/systems

If you do decide to wait for an Outlet SB13 in the oak finish, don't worry that you will be stuck if you try it. I think you will like it very much, but return shipping, and/or exchange for a different model, is quite easy with the SVS Customer Bill of Rights.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks, Mike. I appreciate your input and thoughts.

I'm probably not completely ignorant in terms of understanding some of this information or being able to draw some conclusions from the graphs etc. I was a floundering physics major for a while, but that was a really, really, really long time ago. Where I am pretty much completely ignorant is knowing how to interpret the information in terms of a real world context or impact. For example, I look at those charts and I see, or think I see, that at 12.5hz the SB13 plays at 88.6 decibels vs 81.1 for the SB12? I have no idea what the 7.5 db difference would mean in terms of my home theater experience. Using Google it seems that it takes approximately a 3db change to be perceptible and that a 10db difference would seem to be "twice as loud".

Does the SB13 really play down to 10hz? SVS lists the frequency response as 20-460Hz ±3 dB. I guess I don't really know how to correctly interpret frequency response, but I did just google some stuff and I'm reading it. I've always just assumed it meant that a speaker would generate frequencies in the range listed.
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post #25718 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
Size wise a SB16 Ultra could be the way to go since it is much smaller than many ported subs.
It does sound reasonably sized, but I think it's way more than I would ever be interested in spending.

Has anyone measured the new 16 series subs?
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post #25719 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 04:02 PM
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Thanks, Mike. I appreciate your input and thoughts.

I'm probably not completely ignorant in terms of understanding some of this information or being able to draw some conclusions from the graphs etc. I was a floundering physics major for a while, but that was a really, really, really long time ago. Where I am pretty much completely ignorant is knowing how to interpret the information in terms of a real world context or impact. For example, I look at those charts and I see, or think I see, that at 12.5hz the SB13 plays at 88.6 decibels vs 81.1 for the SB12? I have no idea what the 7.5 db difference would mean in terms of my home theater experience. Using Google it seems that it takes approximately a 3db change to be perceptible and that a 10db difference would seem to be "twice as loud".

Does the SB13 really play down to 10hz? SVS lists the frequency response as 20-460Hz ±3 dB. I guess I don't really know how to correctly interpret frequency response, but I did just google some stuff and I'm reading it. I've always just assumed it meant that a speaker would generate frequencies in the range listed.
You are very welcome! If you remember any of your college physics, you are ahead of me. Who knew I would actually need any of that?

The SB13 really does play down to 10Hz, but not in a way that would be perceptible to someone in a large room. In fact, below about 15Hz, most bass would be more tactile than audible, anyway. But, it's hard to get really low bass in a large room. In my first post, I mentioned room modes, which amplify bass frequencies. In my 6000^3 room, for instance, I have a 3db room mode at 20Hz, a 6db gain at 15Hz, and a 6db gain at 10Hz. (They are different modes.) But, even with my large ported subs, I don't have enough output left at 10Hz for a 6db gain to help me very much. In a small room, there might be 12db of room gain at 10Hz, and in a very small room, say 1000^3, there might be 24db. That would amplify the declining SPL from a sealed sub in a way that would make the really low bass much more meaningful.

Your room would have essentially the same amount of room gain that mine would, give or take a Hz or two. So, if you want really low bass, you are going to have to manufacture it yourself with SPL from your subs. And, that means ported subs. And, even with ported subs, such as the PB16, you are not going to get meaningful SPL below about 14Hz, or so. The reason that I use the term meaningful SPL is due to the way human hearing works. We don't hear low frequencies as well as those in the human vocal range, from about 400Hz to 4000Hz. You can Google the Equal Loudness Contours, to learn more about that.

In a nutshell, what that means, is that it takes more SPL for us to hear 20Hz than it does for us to hear 80Hz, or even 40Hz. And, in the absence of room gain to help us, we just aren't going to be able to get meaningful SPL below about 14Hz, with anything less than something like a Captivator 4000 ULF, or its smaller brother the 2400 ULF. So, if you are looking for more low bass SPL in a large room, you need large ported subs. If you are willing to compromise on the low bass, you can get by with good sealed subs. And, in the case of the SB13 Ultra, versus the PB12-NSD, that compromise will start to be significant at about 25Hz. As noted, above that frequency the SB13 will have an advantage over the ported sub.

I hope that explanation helps. The PB16 and the SB16 have been tested, and each has about 4db more output, below about 35Hz, than the comparable 13 Ultras. Above that, they are pretty equal. SVS's newest models attempt to provide a little more low bass than the earlier Ultras. That low bass, at high SPL, is sort of the Holy Grail in modern subwoofer design, compared to subs a decade ago, where the goal was more in the 25Hz to 30Hz range, and where fairly good 20Hz SPL was considered exceptional.

Regards,
Mike
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post #25720 of 25730 Old Yesterday, 07:47 PM
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NSD subwoofers

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Originally Posted by B T C View Post
What would two SB12-NSD subs do in a 30x20x9 space? This area serves as the primary living space, kitchen and dining room. It's one big, open room with a hall, entrance area to the garage and laundry room, and an entrance to a master bedroom coming off of it. I'm currently running four Polk LSiM703s and a LSiM706c. I'm impressed enough with the output of those speakers that I'm not even sure I need a sub, or subs, but I guess I've always intended to get a sub.
I have a pair of those subwoofers in a 25x25x20x7 (back wall not straight) basement room. I have a Klipsch setup with RF- 82 II towers as mains. What I can tell you is that while the Klipsches can put out reasonable bass on their own, it just sounds a little cleaner with the SVSes taking over the bass. Also, in theory, the SVSes should be able to hit that last octave harder and cleaner. My setup is not final, and will never be as meticulously set up as others. I do have the speakers Audyssey'd. That being said, I listen to rock and classical music very loudly, it sounds great to my non golden ears, and I have only seen the SVSes overload LEDs light up on one SACD, my Telarc multi channel Tchaikovsky. I know that there are many subwoofers that will hit harder, but I doubt you can do much better for the $399 each I paid for mine.
My guess is your experience would be similar. I'm sure the LSI's are awesome, but I think you would be able to hear at least a little improvement with those subwoofers, especially if you have some sort of decent room equalization in your system
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post #25721 of 25730 Old Today, 04:52 AM
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Eta

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Originally Posted by B T C View Post
What would two SB12-NSD subs do in a 30x20x9 space? This area serves as the primary living space, kitchen and dining room. It's one big, open room with a hall, entrance area to the garage and laundry room, and an entrance to a master bedroom coming off of it. I'm currently running four Polk LSiM703s and a LSiM706c. I'm impressed enough with the output of those speakers that I'm not even sure I need a sub, or subs, but I guess I've always intended to get a sub.
For some reason, I thought those were towers, not bookshelves. They would definitely be improved with a pair of any competent subwoofer, I would think.
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post #25722 of 25730 Old Today, 09:08 AM
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For some reason, I thought those were towers, not bookshelves. They would definitely be improved with a pair of any competent subwoofer, I would think.
Does ETA mean Edited to Add?

Yeah, if you are referring to the 703s, they are bookshelf speakers. I believe they are good down to about 50hz, which is apparently pretty respectable for a bookshelf. They sound good to me. The two fronts and surrounds are still sitting on the floor and the center probably isn't as high as it should be. I need to get some stands, but I'm not a big fan of traditional bookshelf stands. I want something that will blend in well with the rest of the room as it's the primary living space. Having said that, I'm sure my viewing & listening experience would benefit from a decent sub or two.

I bought the first pair of 703s, along with the center, last March when Polk was running their Friends and Family sale, so they were 50% off. I bought the 2nd pair within the last few weeks and with an Amex discount they came out to almost 60% off MSRP. Polk's LSiM line seems go to on 50%+ off sales quite often via at least one of their online dealers, Adorama.

I bought a Denon AVR in early November, then a Yamaha AVR over Black Friday, which was probably stupid. I don't need two AVRs, but I had been watching the Yamaha for a long time and felt obligated to buy it when the price dropped significantly around Black Friday. Assuming this would work, I'm thinking I may eventually use the Yamaha as an amp via its multi channel input and let the Denon serve more as the pre-amp. The Denon is one model year newer and supports some of the newer surround modes, such as DTS:X. I've also got an old two channel Yamaha M-80 amplifier that is being restored/repaired, which I plan to use for the fronts. I may have too much stuff.

I'm not sure there was a point to that rambling mess other than to say I feel as if I've been frantically piecing stuff together, and spending too much money, the last few months. I guess all I really need now are some speaker stands and a sub or two.

When people say they set their crossover at 80hz, does that mean nothing below 80 hz is sent to the primary speakers and nothing above 80 hz is sent to the subs?
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post #25723 of 25730 Old Today, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B T C View Post
What would two SB12-NSD subs do in a 30x20x9 space? This area serves as the primary living space, kitchen and dining room. It's one big, open room with a hall, entrance area to the garage and laundry room, and an entrance to a master bedroom coming off of it. I'm currently running four Polk LSiM703s and a LSiM706c. I'm impressed enough with the output of those speakers that I'm not even sure I need a sub, or subs, but I guess I've always intended to get a sub.

I like the fact that the sealed 12" subs are small, which should make them fairly easy to incorporate into the room. At one time I was considering a PB12+, but that sub is much larger, would be harder to incorporate into my room and is currently unavailable in the outlet. I assume it would have quite a bit more output that the two sealed subs? I know nothing about speaker/sub output, reading charts etc., which leaves the door of opportunity wide open for beer to play a major role in my decision making process.
Interesting that you ask. I just added an SB12-NSD to pair with the Martin Logan Abyss sub I already had as their specs are fairly similar. My setup is a room very similar to yours (9 foot ceiling, and open floorplan to the kitchen). I do not play the system at reference levels, but those two subs provide plenty of bass in my opinion. I recently tested it with Pacific Rim and those it was a big step up from having just the one sub.

Mark
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PC13 Ultra, is it possible to set the backlight to not come on when the sub first powers up on auto mode? I didn't see an option in the menu for that.

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post #25725 of 25730 Old Today, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B T C View Post

When people say they set their crossover at 80hz, does that mean nothing below 80 hz is sent to the primary speakers and nothing above 80 hz is sent to the subs?
That is the basic idea, but it is more complex: there is a roll-off centered at 80Hz, so it isn't a brick wall filter.

Edited to add: https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/75...ement-a-primer
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Originally Posted by drunkpenguin View Post
PC13 Ultra, is it possible to set the backlight to not come on when the sub first powers up on auto mode? I didn't see an option in the menu for that.
No. Just turn it where you can't see the light. Or cover up the panel.

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Originally Posted by drunkpenguin View Post
PC13 Ultra, is it possible to set the backlight to not come on when the sub first powers up on auto mode? I didn't see an option in the menu for that.
No. Just turn it where you can't see the light. Or cover up the panel.

Ok thanks. Its not that big of a deal but thought id ask.
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post #25728 of 25730 Old Today, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NCCaniac View Post
Interesting that you ask. I just added an SB12-NSD to pair with the Martin Logan Abyss sub I already had as their specs are fairly similar. My setup is a room very similar to yours (9 foot ceiling, and open floorplan to the kitchen). I do not play the system at reference levels, but those two subs provide plenty of bass in my opinion. I recently tested it with Pacific Rim and those it was a big step up from having just the one sub.
Thanks for the insight.

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Originally Posted by fredxr2d2 View Post
That is the basic idea, but it is more complex: there is a roll-off centered at 80Hz, so it isn't a brick wall filter.

Edited to add: https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/75...ement-a-primer
It makes sense that it wouldn't be a brick wall and I'm glad to know that it isn't. Thanks for the link.
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post #25729 of 25730 Old Today, 08:15 PM
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What would two SB12-NSD subs do in a 30x20x9 space? This area serves as the primary living space, kitchen and dining room. It's one big, open room with a hall, entrance area to the garage and laundry room, and an entrance to a master bedroom coming off of it. I'm currently running four Polk LSiM703s and a LSiM706c. I'm impressed enough with the output of those speakers that I'm not even sure I need a sub, or subs, but I guess I've always intended to get a sub.

I like the fact that the sealed 12" subs are small, which should make them fairly easy to incorporate into the room. At one time I was considering a PB12+, but that sub is much larger, would be harder to incorporate into my room and is currently unavailable in the outlet. I assume it would have quite a bit more output that the two sealed subs? I know nothing about speaker/sub output, reading charts etc., which leaves the door of opportunity wide open for beer to play a major role in my decision making process.
You already got a lot of good advice here. I'll just add that I run dual SB2000's, very similar to the SB12-NSD's, in a sealed space only about half the size of yours, and IMO they are just about right in that space for most movies. So they may not work well for your space. I'd definitely consider ported in your case, or at least the SB13U / SB16, even just one to start with. Though the SB16 is almost the same size as a PB2000! But, no matter which way you go, you will definitely notice the difference from your bookshelves.

When looking at those SPL charts/tables, keep in mind that adding a 2nd sub will add 3-6 dB across the spectrum.

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post #25730 of 25730 Old Today, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by drunkpenguin View Post
PC13 Ultra, is it possible to set the backlight to not come on when the sub first powers up on auto mode? I didn't see an option in the menu for that.
Easy, black electrical tape.

My Dad once said to me: "Son, quality over quantity - always"

Of course he was referring to girlfriends after high school, but the same applies to subs - which, if you are in this forum is the girlfriend we have an affair with for a running time of 2 hours in one session.
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