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post #25771 of 25773 Old Today, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

It's a somewhat difficult question to answer. One thing I would do though, is to increase the volume using the sub gain, rather than the AVR trim. Ideally, you want to keep the sub trim in the -3 to -5 range, and just use the sub gain to make upward adjustments. Very low bass is more of a rumbling sound than a series of separately articulated notes. And, you feel low bass (under about 20Hz or so) tactilely, as a pressure wave, as much as you hear it. So, that rumble that you started to hear, when you increased your sub trim, was the very low bass that you probably haven't been experiencing before.

If you are not hearing the sub make distressed sounds--literally a huffing/puffing sound for port chuffing, then you are probably okay. I think you would hear that before you heard a mechanical noise from the driver hitting its limiter. Where is your sub gain set now, and what is your master volume?

I know we have discussed this on another thread, but the chief advantage of an upgrade, in my opinion, would be for lower extension. More powerful models produce lower frequencies at higher SPL--more rumble, more tactile sensation. But, the extra SPL they add for the rest of the frequency range is secondary to that, if you already have sufficient SPL for your purposes. And, it sounds as if you do.

The Ultra would be a fairly big step up in terms of low frequency performance. The Plus would be a smaller, and in my opinion, less noticeable step. But, it could well be an incremental way to decide whether you would benefit from even more low frequency performance, and it could also be a way to help get you to an Ultra more gradually, if you decide that you would benefit.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks again Mike. Gain on sub is between 12 and 1. When with my wife at night we listen at low levels, around -45 to -50. When watching movies during day with kids or other will get up to -35 but really don't listen much louder than that. Maybe a couple times by myself in the house will get up to -30. With that in mind would the jump to the ultra provide more enjoyable low end experience even at those low levels or am I wasting my money? Also I should note that I have found dynamic volume and eq impact what master volume I use. For music I turn dynamic volume off and I then have to bump up master volume significantly higher. I use the "evening" setting most of the time for movies which helps when we are are listening at lower volumes with the surround and lfe channels but then need lower volume settings as above.

Samsung PN59D8000 | Denon AVR-1912 | Tivo Roamio via OTA | ATV4 | Media PC running Plex server/Plex Media Player
Front L/R Polk RTiA3 | Center Polk CSiA6 | Front Heights Polk RCi55 | Surround Polk OWM3 | Sub SVS PC-2000

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post #25772 of 25773 Old Today, 11:38 AM
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I have a PC-2000 in a 3100cubic feet living room. It also has a 6 foot fixed opening to our foyer to the left of the front sound stage. I have enjoyed the PC-2000 and I'm considering trading up to PC12-Plus. Duals won't work in my space and not sure I really want to spend the money for the ultra (my wife will unlikely go for the size too). I have another thread about this as well. I typically only listen at moderate levels.

I've been told by several on the forum and SVS that I probably won't notice the upgrade unless I'm really hitting the limits of the PC-2000. But to be honest I don't really know how to tell that. I tried playing with it last night. I bumped up my sub trim to 8dB hot (which is at -1dB). I watched Interstellar last night with DTS-HD soundtrack as it's supposed to be a heavy bass movie, which it was. Master volume was only moderate. There was certainly lot of room shaking tactile bass in certain scenes. What I'm not sure of is how to know if I'm hitting limits of the sub. I don't think the PC-2000 has a limiter light even though it does have a limiter. I will say that the bass in intense scenes didn't seem to have a lot of nuance but more of a rumble. Very enjoyable but is that distortion or just they way it is intended? I have know idea how the soundtrack is supposed to sound though. Without measurement equipment any good ways to subjectively tell if I'm hitting limits of sub?
The DSP limiter/compressor is quite transparent and doesn't have obvious cycling or other intrusive behavior. The easiest way gauge compression is with an SPL meter (C-weighted/fast). Set the subwoofer calibration level where you normally like it. Then select a demanding scene and start looping it. Measure the SPL peak on the meter and then increase the MV setting on the AVR by 3 dB. The bass peak SPL will march in lockstep with the AVR MV setting until the subwoofer starts to compress dynamics. Then you will see 1-2 dB instead of 3 dB.

If that point is louder than you normally ever listen, then there isn't much point in upgrading. OTOH, if you want more MV from the entire system, measure the difference between the MV setting which has the onset of sub compression and your preferred MV setting - and then we can tell you how much of an upgrade you'll need to avoid sub compression at that higher MV setting.

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SVS

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post #25773 of 25773 Old Today, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
Thanks again Mike. Gain on sub is between 12 and 1. When with my wife at night we listen at low levels, around -45 to -50. When watching movies during day with kids or other will get up to -35 but really don't listen much louder than that. Maybe a couple times by myself in the house will get up to -30. With that in mind would the jump to the ultra provide more enjoyable low end experience even at those low levels or am I wasting my money? Also I should note that I have found dynamic volume and eq impact what master volume I use. For music I turn dynamic volume off and I then have to bump up master volume significantly higher. I use the "evening" setting most of the time for movies which helps when we are are listening at lower volumes with the surround and lfe channels but then need lower volume settings as above.
You are very welcome! Just as there is a relationship between DEQ and MV, so there is a relationship between the amount of sub boost you employ, and how much low bass you hear, even at fairly modest master volume levels. Someone on the Nearfield Ported MBM thread asked at what listening volumes people could feel tactile bass sensations. I replied that I could feel tactile mid-bass (chest pressure or punch, from about 50Hz to 100Hz) at much more moderate volumes, and with much less bass boost, than I could with ULF frequencies. Much less!

So, when you boosted you sub by about 8db, post-Audyssey, you started to hear more of the deep bass, characterized as a rumbling sound, than you did when you were using less sub boost. It would be the same thing with the Ultra. If you boosted your sub, more than you have in the past, you would be able to hear, and feel, more low bass sounds and sensations than you would be able to with your PC2000, at comparable MV and sub levels. And, that's because the Ultra can play lower frequencies, louder than the PC2000 can. But, it would still be contingent on using enough sub boost to engage those low frequencies. I hope that all makes sense.

I honestly don't know whether buying an Ultra would make a significant difference in your listening experience, or not. But, I do know that the question of whether you might be missing something, and whether you should upgrade in order to find out, has been bugging you for a while now. So, if you don't mind a suggestion, this is mine. If your credit card will stand it, I would suggest that you buy a PC13, with the understanding that you may, or may not, trade-in your PC2000.

I feel sure that SVS will work with you on that. Put the PC2000 away for a while, and experiment with the PC13. If you like the additional low frequency extension it provides, keep it and send the PC2000 back. If you don't feel that it is a worthwhile upgrade, considering either the size, or cost difference, just send the PC13 back. Again, SVS won't object to that. The Customer Bill of Rights is there to be used, and the SVS customer service is outstanding.

Regards,
Mike
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