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post #25981 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by WarmongerX View Post
Hey all - Moved to a new place a few months ago and been contemplating adding another sub to the mix. The room is 19' x 23' with vaulted ceilings and opens up on the left side to the kitchen through an archway and half wall. I have the PB12 plus and it's a couple feet way from the corner. The first thing I noticed after running Audyssey on my Denon X6200 is that I had to bump up the volume 4db more on the Sub to achieve the same desired results I had at my last place and is now at max volume +0. Audyssey has my Sub at -5.0 in the receiver, which from what I've read here is right about where it needs to be. In order for Audyssey to even run, I have to set the sub volume -10.

Now before anyone says it, my bass isn't overwhelming by any means, but does run a little hot obviously. I'll run REW later today to see what else I might have going on, but at any rate, to the crux of my first world problem . I'm looking for more of that thud in the chest most all of us here crave in our favorite movies and while I get it if I turn up the volume on the receiver past 62 or 64, I was hoping to get a little more of it by adding another sub. I've been eyeing the PC12 Plus and putting it near-field on the opposite corner of my room. I called and talked SVS and the first thing I was told is that I could mix in a PB2000 if going near-field, just up the volume to match. From everything I've read here, I thought mixing Subs of different calibers was not a good idea.

Attached is few pics I just took to give you guys an idea of what I have going on. (Yes, I'm still in the preliminary stages of acquiring some decor for the walls )

Thoughts? Words of Wisdom?
Hi,

Thoughts, definitely! Wisdom? I'm not as sure.

I'm not certain, from looking at your photos, which corner you are planning to use for the second sub. Would you please guesstimate (or measure) the distance from your existing Plus, to the MLP, and then do the same thing for the corner you plan to use? Offhand, I am not seeing a corner that I would characterize as "nearfield".

The advice we get when asking other people about this sort of thing can vary, including with whom we happen to talk at SVS. Personally, given your description of how hard you are pushing your current sub, I would definitely not be looking to go down in power. And, I also wouldn't want to sacrifice any low-end extension, which only gets better as we go up in power from the PB2000. So, I would be looking at adding at least another Plus. And, if I could afford it, I might go even higher up the food chain.

It isn't so much that you can't pair subs which are one model apart in capability. It's more that you don't want to pair down from where you are now. In your circumstances, I would suggest at least pairing equally, or if possible, pairing up to an Ultra. If your second sub is going to be fairly close to you, I would also suggest going with a PB rather than a PC. The direct pressure wave from port and driver, of a nearfield sub, can be much more intense than from a similarly placed down-firing sub like the PC. Just a thought.

Again, assuming that your second sub will be much closer to you than your existing one, I might replace the existing sub with either a PC or PB12 Plus, or a PC or PB13, and move the Plus to a more nearfield position, both to equalize the SPL output difference, and to take advantage of a closer proximity to the port/driver, if you do decide to get a PC. You have numerous options here, starting with your original plan to get another Plus, although as noted, I would make it a PB, unless you want to put the cylinder up front. I have a nearfield PB13 (2' behind my recliner) and it makes quite a difference in tactile ULF, compared to a PC13 I used to have back there.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike
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post #25982 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Thoughts, definitely! Wisdom? I'm not as sure.

I'm not certain, from looking at your photos, which corner you are planning to use for the second sub. Would you please guesstimate (or measure) the distance from your existing Plus, to the MLP, and then do the same thing for the corner you plan to use? Offhand, I am not seeing a corner that I would characterize as "nearfield".

The advice we get when asking other people about this sort of thing can vary, including with whom we happen to talk at SVS. Personally, given your description of how hard you are pushing your current sub, I would definitely not be looking to go down in power. And, I also wouldn't want to sacrifice any low-end extension, which only gets better as we go up in power from the PB2000. So, I would be looking at adding at least another Plus. And, if I could afford it, I might go even higher up the food chain.

It isn't so much that you can't pair subs which are one model apart in capability. It's more that you don't want to pair down from where you are now. In your circumstances, I would suggest at least pairing equally, or if possible, pairing up to an Ultra. If your second sub is going to be fairly close to you, I would also suggest going with a PB rather than a PC. The direct pressure wave from port and driver, of a nearfield sub, can be much more intense than from a similarly placed down-firing sub like the PC. Just a thought.

Again, assuming that your second sub will be much closer to you than your existing one, I might replace the existing sub with either a PC or PB12 Plus, or a PC or PB13, and move the Plus to a more nearfield position, both to equalize the SPL output difference, and to take advantage of a closer proximity to the port/driver, if you do decide to get a PC. You have numerous options here, starting with your original plan to get another Plus, although as noted, I would make it a PB, unless you want to put the cylinder up front. I have a nearfield PB13 (2' behind my recliner) and it makes quite a difference in tactile ULF, compared to a PC13 I used to have back there.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike

Thanks Mike. I should've clarified my intent a little more for my reading audience. My ideal position for what I considered near-field was behind the left corner of that reclining couch, not in the corner where the bookcase is now. So about 3-4 feet from my MLP.

Your experience is exactly what I was looking for. The difference between the feel of PC vs a PB. Talking to SVS on multiple occasions, that hasn't been conveyed, which is why I love coming to these forums and getting the feed back from those that have tried it. It sounds like I should stay with the latter. Getting a PB13U up front and move the PB12+ to rear near-field duty. The problem I have is the amount of room needed to house a PB in that near-field area. From wall to end of PB12 metal grill cover, is 29.5" and would be firing right into the back of that end table, not ideal, which is why I was looking at a PC. Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

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post #25983 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by WarmongerX View Post
Thanks Mike. I should've clarified my intent a little more for my reading audience. My ideal position for what I considered near-field was behind the left corner of that reclining couch, not in the corner where the bookcase is now. So about 3-4 feet from my MLP.

Your experience is exactly what I was looking for. The difference between the feel of PC vs a PB. Talking to SVS on multiple occasions, that hasn't been conveyed, which is why I love coming to these forums and getting the feed back from those that have tried it. It sounds like I should stay with the latter. Getting a PB13U up front and move the PB12+ to rear near-field duty. The problem I have is the amount of room needed to house a PB in that near-field area. From wall to end of PB12 metal grill cover, is 29.5" and would be firing right into the back of that end table, not ideal, which is why I was looking at a PC. Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

You are very welcome! A picture of that corner would really help, but you might also consider orienting the sub in a different direction, or even moving the end table forward a little. I started with only one sub, and thought I didn't have good locations for any others. Once I got really motivated to add subs, I discovered additional locations, fairly easily, just by some slight rearrangements. Looking at my room, with fresh eyes, gave me a completely different perspective.

For instance, you might consider moving the sofa, and both end tables, 6" or so further away from the wall to make more room for a PB. I had several PC's, representing each step up in power. So, I like them. But, the pressure wave from the PB's is worth a little something to me. And, the PB13 also has about 1.5db more max output than the PC13 (although the two Pluses are equal). Additional headroom helps, if you need to push your subs. I'll bet you can get a PB back there, if you try. Don't you like it when other people are so willing to help you spend your money?

Regards,
Mike
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post #25984 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 12:44 PM
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You are very welcome! A picture of that corner would really help, but you might also consider orienting the sub in a different direction, or even moving the end table forward a little. I started with only one sub, and thought I didn't have good locations for any others. Once I got really motivated to add subs, I discovered additional locations, fairly easily, just by some slight rearrangements. Looking at my room, with fresh eyes, gave me a completely different perspective.

For instance, you might consider moving the sofa, and both end tables, 6" or so further away from the wall to make more room for a PB. I had several PC's, representing each step up in power. So, I like them. But, the pressure wave from the PB's is worth a little something to me. And, the PB13 also has about 1.5db more max output than the PC13 (although the two Pluses are equal). Additional headroom helps, if you need to push your subs. I'll bet you can get a PB back there, if you try. Don't you like it when other people are so willing to help you spend your money?

Regards,
Mike
LOL. Yeah, good points. I'm sure I could move them forward a few inches to compensate and even remove the metal grill if need be since it wouldn't really be seen. I guess my other thought/option would be to just add another PB12+ up front on the other side of the entertainment center, however I don't think I'd get the tactile feel from ULF that I'm looking for in that position, right?

Here's the spot I was looking at:
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post #25985 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by WarmongerX View Post
LOL. Yeah, good points. I'm sure I could move them forward a few inches to compensate and even remove the metal grill if need be since it wouldn't really be seen. I guess my other thought/option would be to just add another PB12+ up front on the other side of the entertainment center, however I don't think I'd get the tactile feel from ULF that I'm looking for in that position, right?

Here's the spot I was looking at:
That looks like a good spot, and running the sub along the wall behind the sofa, instead of perpendicular to it, might work very well. You are never quite sure what spots will work best for subs (either a single sub, or a pair), until you actually test the sub(s) in those positions. But, in general, you are probably more likely to enhance your frequency response, if your subs are on different walls--to engage room modes differently. That should help to reduce cancellation effects. And, I also think that if you try a nearfield sub, you will really like the effect.

I would suggest that you just get a PB13, and take advantage of the 45-day free trial period. That will give you lots of time to experiment to find out what actually works best for you.
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post #25986 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That looks like a good spot, and running the sub along the wall behind the sofa, instead of perpendicular to it, might work very well. You are never quite sure what spots will work best for subs (either a single sub, or a pair), until you actually test the sub(s) in those positions. But, in general, you are probably more likely to enhance your frequency response, if your subs are on different walls--to engage room modes differently. That should help to reduce cancellation effects. And, I also think that if you try a nearfield sub, you will really like the effect.

I would suggest that you just get a PB13, and take advantage of the 45-day free trial period. That will give you lots of time to experiment to find out what actually works best for you.
Parallel to the wall instead of perpendicular? So firing towards my MLP instead of towards the back of the end table? Is that orientation suggestion due to cancellation effects that would be introduced by pointing them against each other?

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post #25987 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by WarmongerX View Post
Hey all - Moved to a new place a few months ago and been contemplating adding another sub to the mix. The room is 19' x 23' with vaulted ceilings and opens up on the left side to the kitchen through an archway and half wall. I have the PB12 plus and it's a couple feet way from the corner. The first thing I noticed after running Audyssey on my Denon X6200 is that I had to bump up the volume 4db more on the Sub to achieve the same desired results I had at my last place and is now at max volume +0. Audyssey has my Sub at -5.0 in the receiver, which from what I've read here is right about where it needs to be. In order for Audyssey to even run, I have to set the sub volume -10.

Now before anyone says it, my bass isn't overwhelming by any means, but does run a little hot obviously. I'll run REW later today to see what else I might have going on, but at any rate, to the crux of my first world problem . I'm looking for more of that thud in the chest most all of us here crave in our favorite movies and while I get it if I turn up the volume on the receiver past 62 or 64, I was hoping to get a little more of it by adding another sub. I've been eyeing the PC12 Plus and putting it near-field on the opposite corner of my room. I called and talked SVS and the first thing I was told is that I could mix in a PB2000 if going near-field, just up the volume to match. From everything I've read here, I thought mixing Subs of different calibers was not a good idea.

Attached is few pics I just took to give you guys an idea of what I have going on. (Yes, I'm still in the preliminary stages of acquiring some decor for the walls )

Thoughts? Words of Wisdom?
We don't recommend mixing ported and sealed due to the differences in the phase responses.

But mixing two ported models like a PB12+ and a PB-2000 is fine - just run the PB12+ in the 20 Hz mode to match the tuning on the PB-2000. Obviously a PC12+ and a PB12+ will work great together too (use the same port tune on both).

We can help you get the two subs properly phased so they are coupling and reinforcing to the extent possible from their respective room locations.

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post #25988 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 01:31 PM
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Parallel to the wall instead of perpendicular? So firing towards my MLP instead of towards the back of the end table? Is that orientation suggestion due to cancellation effects that would be introduced by pointing them against each other?
No, I'm not thinking of potential cancellation due to having the subs pointed at each other. I'm just thinking that having the sub point right at the MLP will increase the direct pressure wave. You will just need to experiment, though, to find out what you like best. Speculation can only take you so far.
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Getting YPAO to recognize dual subs

Good afternoon!

I hope this message finds everyone well.

Not sure I am in the right place, but I have a pair of SB-12 NSD, hooked up to my Yamaha receiver, but when I run YPAO, I only see one sub. Is this normal? It sounds great, but I feel like I am missing something.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Very little experience in this arena...

Thanks in advance!
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post #25990 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 02:39 PM
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Good afternoon!

I hope this message finds everyone well.

Not sure I am in the right place, but I have a pair of SB-12 NSD, hooked up to my Yamaha receiver, but when I run YPAO, I only see one sub. Is this normal? It sounds great, but I feel like I am missing something.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Very little experience in this arena...

Thanks in advance!
Hi,

First, do you have two sub outs on the back of your AVR, or do you have the two subs Y-connected into one sub out? If you do have two sub outs, you may need to go into your configuration menu and tell your Yamaha that you have two subs in your system. I am not familiar with Yamaha, but that is the way that Denon/Marantz units work. Once you have done all of that YPAO will set the levels of the two subs at a combined SPL of 75db, as measured by the YPAO microphone, at the MLP. And, the two subs will be EQed as one sub, and will still have the total SPL that one sub will have. If you want to have more bass than that, as you almost certainly will, then you will need to increase the sub levels above the measured 75db.

There is a fairly extensive explanation of how all of this works, and how to add sub boosts, in the sub guide, linked in my signature. It was written primarily for Audyssey users, but the principles involved apply equally well to YPAO.

Regards,
Mike
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post #25991 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
We don't recommend mixing ported and sealed due to the differences in the phase responses.

But mixing two ported models like a PB12+ and a PB-2000 is fine - just run the PB12+ in the 20 Hz mode to match the tuning on the PB-2000. Obviously a PC12+ and a PB12+ will work great together too (use the same port tune on both).

We can help you get the two subs properly phased so they are coupling and reinforcing to the extent possible from their respective room locations.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
No, I'm not thinking of potential cancellation due to having the subs pointed at each other. I'm just thinking that having the sub point right at the MLP will increase the direct pressure wave. You will just need to experiment, though, to find out what you like best. Speculation can only take you so far.
Thanks Ed and Mike. I appreciate the responses. I now just need to figure out where I want to start.
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post #25992 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 03:57 PM
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Hi,

First, do you have two sub outs on the back of your AVR, or do you have the two subs Y-connected into one sub out? If you do have two sub outs, you may need to go into your configuration menu and tell your Yamaha that you have two subs in your system. I am not familiar with Yamaha, but that is the way that Denon/Marantz units work. Once you have done all of that YPAO will set the levels of the two subs at a combined SPL of 75db, as measured by the YPAO microphone, at the MLP. And, the two subs will be EQed as one sub, and will still have the total SPL that one sub will have. If you want to have more bass than that, as you almost certainly will, then you will need to increase the sub levels above the measured 75db.

There is a fairly extensive explanation of how all of this works, and how to add sub boosts, in the sub guide, linked in my signature. It was written primarily for Audyssey users, but the principles involved apply equally well to YPAO.

Regards,
Mike


Thank you! I will look and learn from the guide....thanks again!


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post #25993 of 25995 Old 03-28-2017, 05:06 PM
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Thank you! I will look and learn from the guide....thanks again!

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You are very welcome!
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Hello Members,
I have decided to jump into the SVS World with the purchase of two PB16-Ultra. These subwoofers will be replacing my beloved Vandersteen V2W. subs.

I originally purchased the Vandersteen subs because they match and blend nicely with my Vandersteen 3A signatures stereo speakers. The V2w has a unique design with 3-8”inch down firing woofers and 1-12” passive radiator. This sub maintains a quickness that works very well with music and works ok for movies. I have auditioned plenty of subs throughout the last 25 years and although there has been subs that have tremendous output that can reach levels that can make your heart stop, I have never felt that the blend and quickness of other subs have matched the Vandersteen sub.



Here we are now 2017 and along comes the SVS PB16-Ultra with what they quote:



16-Ultra Series

Reference SVS subwoofers obliterate expectations with effortless low frequency extension, massive output and pinpoint accuracy and speed in transients. Featuring three game-changing innovations: a robust 16” driver with unprecedented 8” voice coil, 1,500 watts RMS, 5,000+ watts peak amplifier with fully discrete MOSFET output and groundbreaking new SVS smartphone app for convenient DSP and control; the 16-Ultra Series are the ultimate reference standard for bass.

I am hoping that these SVS subs will fit all my needs and be the last subs that I ever purchase.
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Hello Members,
I have decided to jump into the SVS World with the purchase of two PB16-Ultra. These subwoofers will be replacing my beloved Vandersteen V2W. subs.

I originally purchased the Vandersteen subs because they match and blend nicely with my Vandersteen 3A signatures stereo speakers. The V2w has a unique design with 3-8”inch down firing woofers and 1-12” passive radiator. This sub maintains a quickness that works very well with music and works ok for movies. I have auditioned plenty of subs throughout the last 25 years and although there has been subs that have tremendous output that can reach levels that can make your heart stop, I have never felt that the blend and quickness of other subs have matched the Vandersteen sub.



Here we are now 2017 and along comes the SVS PB16-Ultra with what they quote:



16-Ultra Series

Reference SVS subwoofers obliterate expectations with effortless low frequency extension, massive output and pinpoint accuracy and speed in transients. Featuring three game-changing innovations: a robust 16” driver with unprecedented 8” voice coil, 1,500 watts RMS, 5,000+ watts peak amplifier with fully discrete MOSFET output and groundbreaking new SVS smartphone app for convenient DSP and control; the 16-Ultra Series are the ultimate reference standard for bass.

I am hoping that these SVS subs will fit all my needs and be the last subs that I ever purchase.
Only you will be able to ascertain whether or not the 16's will "fit all your needs." Regardless, with SVS's Bill of Rights policy, it will be a win/win! Enjoy!

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