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post #26011 of 26287 Old 03-31-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,
There is a fairly extensive explanation of how all of this works, and how to add sub boosts, in the sub guide, linked in my signature. It was written primarily for Audyssey users, but the principles involved apply equally well to YPAO.

Regards,
Mike
I read a portion of the link you provided and it brings up a question. I recently replaced my AVR with a Marantz 7011 not too long ago. When I run Audyssey, it pops up a level on the screen allowing me to dial the subs into the green if you will. Levels too low or high have the reading in red. Ok, so I do that. I understand your suggestion of letting the subs handle their own power. Makes perfect sense.

So the question is, do I dial up the subs to the top of the green zone? Higher into the red? (I had assumed, perhaps wrongly), that they needed to be in the green for the AVR to have the necessary means of adjustment.

Thanks,
John
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post #26012 of 26287 Old 03-31-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Guzzi 1 View Post
I read a portion of the link you provided and it brings up a question. I recently replaced my AVR with a Marantz 7011 not too long ago. When I run Audyssey, it pops up a level on the screen allowing me to dial the subs into the green if you will. Levels too low or high have the reading in red. Ok, so I do that. I understand your suggestion of letting the subs handle their own power. Makes perfect sense.

So the question is, do I dial up the subs to the top of the green zone? Higher into the red? (I had assumed, perhaps wrongly), that they needed to be in the green for the AVR to have the necessary means of adjustment.

Thanks,
John
Hi John,

There is a certain amount of trial-and-error involved in getting your AVR trim levels where you want them. You can do a one-point calibration to find out where your trim levels are after the level-matching step at mic position 1. You will need to go into the red to achieve an SPL of about 78db, or higher. Remember that Audyssey's job is just to set your subs to a combined volume of 75db. That's the green zone. But, if you want to have surplus trim available, so that you can add sub boosts in your AVR, you will want to have trim levels of at least about -9. So, yes, you will need to go into the red zone to get there.

I will amend the guide to include a comment on the green zone and the red zone, during level matching.

Regards,
Mike
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post #26013 of 26287 Old 04-01-2017, 01:35 AM
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Thanks for the reply. Hopefully, at some point this weekend, I'll be rerunning Audyssey. I will start with setting the readings hot by increasing the subs own gain and see how it influences the AVR. Based on your writings, it would appear I have a lot of wiggle room. I recently replaced my old subs with a pair of SVS's and the sub gain was much less than mid point on their controls. When I look in the AVR menu right now, the sub trim is set to 0. So, I'll be playing with things to see what that reading says when I rerun them. If I understand your writings, my AVR should be able to adjust them as long as I keep them within the 11.5 dB window.

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post #26014 of 26287 Old 04-01-2017, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Guzzi 1 View Post
Thanks for the reply. Hopefully, at some point this weekend, I'll be rerunning Audyssey. I will start with setting the readings hot by increasing the subs own gain and see how it influences the AVR. Based on your writings, it would appear I have a lot of wiggle room. I recently replaced my old subs with a pair of SVS's and the sub gain was much less than mid point on their controls. When I look in the AVR menu right now, the sub trim is set to 0. So, I'll be playing with things to see what that reading says when I rerun them. If I understand your writings, my AVR should be able to adjust them as long as I keep them within the 11.5 dB window.

John
You are very welcome! You have the right idea. You would adjust the sub gains up a little bit, during calibration, to get a strongly negative trim---down to -11.5. Then, you could add sub boosts of up to about +8db just by using your AVR remote. But, you would still want to keep your AVR trims well in the negative range, so if you wanted to add even more than about 8db, you would just increase the gain on the subs symmetrically to do it. If you are using DEQ, as most people do, additional sub boosts of up to about 8db should be plenty. But, if you turned off DEQ (which adds its own bass boost), you might find yourself wanting to boost the subs even more, and that's where the gain controls would come back into play.

Regards,
Mike
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post #26015 of 26287 Old 04-01-2017, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are very welcome! You have the right idea. You would adjust the sub gains up a little bit, during calibration, to get a strongly negative trim---down to -11.5. Then, you could add sub boosts of up to about +8db just by using your AVR remote. But, you would still want to keep your AVR trims well in the negative range, so if you wanted to add even more than about 8db, you would just increase the gain on the subs symmetrically to do it. If you are using DEQ, as most people do, additional sub boosts of up to about 8db should be plenty. But, if you turned off DEQ (which adds its own bass boost), you might find yourself wanting to boost the subs even more, and that's where the gain controls would come back into play.

Regards,
Mike


Mike, what do you run your pb16 gains at? Just curious.


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post #26016 of 26287 Old 04-01-2017, 06:31 AM
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Mike, what do you run your pb16 gains at? Just curious.

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I have experimented a bit. My current (and favorite) gain level is -10 for my three PB16's and for my nearfield PB13. My AVR trim levels are at -5. My listening level varies a bit for movies, but would not typically exceed -12 MV. Sometimes, depending on the movie, I might go down to -14 MV. With my gain and trim settings as I have described them, my typical sub boost is about +15db. But, that is with DEQ off, since I prefer to operate without it.

All that is just for 5.1 movies, and particularly for action movies with heavy special effects, though. When it comes to music, I listen mostly to music involving acoustical (rather than electronically enhanced) instruments, and I don't typically employ a bass boost. I thought I should add that note in case someone were trying to picture me listening to music with a +15db sub boost.

Regards,
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post #26017 of 26287 Old 04-01-2017, 11:19 AM
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I had a pair of SB1000s (and still have the Ultra Bookshelf Speakers) and I loved them. Silky smooth and articulate. Unfortunately they were just too small for my large room and I sold them and put the profits toward a pair of VTF-3s. I'd love to stay in the family, but my budget can't support what they have that I needed. If money were no object I'd have either a pair of PB13 Ultras or maybe even a pair of PB16 Ultras.
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post #26018 of 26287 Old 04-01-2017, 08:32 PM
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Just recently added a second pb16 and was watching terminater tonight and the back of the amp on my new one was extremely hot,anybody experience this with their subs?
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post #26019 of 26287 Old 04-01-2017, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mzs22 View Post
Just recently added a second pb16 and was watching terminater tonight and the back of the amp on my new one was extremely hot,anybody experience this with their subs?

Call SVS ........... I always thought Class D amps got warm but NOT HOT if they were working correctly. I could be wrong about this larger amp with more power then my mine. The only time my 2007 PB-13 Ultra got HOT was when it had a amp go bad days later. Don't freak out not sure about your amp but I would NOT jam it until I talked to SVS. I would rather error on the side of caution. Maybe some other PB-16 Ultra owner will post up tonight.
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post #26020 of 26287 Old 04-01-2017, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post
Call SVS ........... I always thought Class D amps got warm but NOT HOT if they were working correctly. I could be wrong about this larger amp with more power then my mine. The only time my 2007 PB-13 Ultra got HOT was when it had a amp go bad days later. Don't freak out not sure about your amp but I would NOT jam it until I talked to SVS. I would rather error on the side of caution. Maybe some other PB-16 Ultra owner will post up tonight.
I will give them a call in the morning , it also smelled hot and the cone was warm to the the touch with a ticking noise and hum coming from it.

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post #26021 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 12:36 AM
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I will give them a call in the morning , it also smelled hot and the cone was warm to the the touch with a ticking noise and hum coming from it.


Sounds like time for a new amp.


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post #26022 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 03:37 AM
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I will give them a call in the morning , it also smelled hot and the cone was warm to the the touch with a ticking noise and hum coming from it.
Make sure you tell the the tech at SVS this too. I hope the driver/woofer is not damaged too, I checked my driver with a ohm meter before I installed the replacement amp. . I would ask for a new sub and send this one back if it NEW.

DO NOT turn it back on until you call SVS.

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post #26023 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post
Make sure you tell the the tech at SVS this too. I hope the driver/woofer is not damaged too, I checked my driver with a ohm meter before I installed the replacement amp. . I would ask for a new sub and send this one back if it NEW.

DO NOT turn it back on until you call SVS.
It took awhile for the woofer to cool down, the top half stayed warm for a couple hours and there is still a burnt smell coming from the ports slightly.
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post #26024 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 08:34 AM
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It took awhile for the woofer to cool down, the top half stayed warm for a couple hours and there is still a burnt smell coming from the ports slightly.
I talked to Jack last week at SVS, nice guy to deal with, make sure you tell him all of this. I would ask him to send me a new sub and not just replace the amp as you have to remove the fried amp and box it up. Jack emailed me a RMA# and and sticker for Fed Ex they paid for freight both ways. If the cone was that warm I would not trust it as I bet the voice coil got too warm. I checked mine with a ohm meter it's a 4 ohm woofer that dips down a little below 4 from what Jack told me. My woofer checks fine with my meter so I hope that me having it in such a small room I won't have to turn up the sub so loud like the past two owners had to do in those huge rooms they had it in.

If my replacement amp ever fails after the last two years of warranty has expired I will look for a external table Sub amp (Class D ) with controls and power that matches this drivers needs. I was never a fan of having a high power amp inside a sub cabinet that vibrates so much. It seems to me from what I have read the smaller subs with less power from SVS last a LOT longer then these 1000 to 1500 watt amps. VMMV on this as some 1000 Sledge amps have gone many years without a issue. My 2007 PB 13 Ultra is NOW on it's 5th amp in 10 years when the new one arrives this next week. I knew the previous two owners that had my SVS. I guess this is why i got such a deal on it vs buying a new one. WORTH it to me as this is one of the best sounding subs I have listened to for this price point. I paid a $1,000.00 for it and two years remaining on the amp. Post up what SVS has to say.

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post #26025 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post
I talked to Jack last week at SVS, nice guy to deal with, make sure you tell him all of this. I would ask him to send me a new sub and not just replace the amp as you have to remove the fried amp and box it up. Jack emailed me a RMA# and and sticker for Fed Ex they paid for freight both ways. If the cone was that warm I would not trust it as I bet the voice coil got too warm. I checked mine with a ohm meter it's a 4 ohm woofer that dips down a little below 4 from what Jack told me. My woofer checks fine with my meter so I hope that me having it in such a small room I won't have to turn up the sub so loud like the past two owners had to do in those huge rooms they had it in.

If my replacement amp ever fails after the last two years of warranty has expired I will look for a external table Sub amp (Class D ) with controls and power that matches this drivers needs. I was never a fan of having a high power amp inside a sub cabinet that vibrates so much. It seems to me from what I have read the smaller subs with less power from SVS last a LOT longer then these 1000 to 1500 watt amps. VMMV on this as some 1000 Sledge amps have gone many years without a issue. My 2007 PB 13 Ultra is NOW on it's 5th amp in 10 years when the new one arrives this next week. I knew the previous two owners that had my SVS. I guess this is why i got such a deal on it vs buying a new one. WORTH it to me as this is one of the best sounding subs I have listened to for this price point. I paid a $1,000.00 for it and two years remaining on the amp. Post up what SVS has to say.
I talked to Tim and since the woofer also got warm everything inside is going to need to be replaced. Since they are out of PB 16s and wont' be in stock until May 7th I am going to send mine back to be repaired. Being in my basement in my theater room I am not looking forward to getting this back up!
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post #26026 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 12:29 PM
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I talked to Tim and since the woofer also got warm everything inside is going to need to be replaced. Since they are out of PB 16s and wont' be in stock until May 7th I am going to send mine back to be repaired. Being in my basement in my theater room I am not looking forward to getting this back up!
Did you keep the shipping box etc if so rent a a refrigerator dolly that is tall and has padding. it's super easy to turn around backwards and lean the dolly back and walk it up each step. They are just going to replace the woofer and plate amp with new wires from speaker terminal to spade clips on the main board. Check for burt insolation or replace ALL the insulation so the BURNT SMELL is gone ( I would email Tim and ask about that) .

While my amp is removed I can see the brace in my 13, one of them has a hole in it the size of the huge back magnet. I guess so the basket case screws in the front are not taking all the weight of this heavy woofer/driver. And your 16 is even BIGGER.... I am hoping one my friends gets a PB 16 Ultra I want to listen to it and see if it blows away my 13.

It's a shame a few of us get a lemmon as so many or sold and never have a amp issue. How old is your other 16? I have been reading posts on other forums about my PB 13 Ultra. The UP side is SVS Customer Service and return policy is awesome......like I said I wish every vendor I have purchased equipment treated me the same way after a sale as SVS does.... and mine is USED. KUDO's to SVS.

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post #26027 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 12:48 PM
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Did you keep the shipping box etc if so rent a a refrigerator dolly that is tall and has padding. it's super easy to turn around backwards and lean the dolly back and walk it up each step. They are just going to replace the woofer and plate amp with new wires from speaker terminal to spade clips on the main board. Check for burt insolation or replace ALL the insulation so the BURNT SMELL is gone ( I would email Tim and ask about that) .

While my amp is removed I can see the brace in my 13, one of them has a hole in it the size of the huge back magnet. I guess so the basket case screws in the front are not taking all the weight of this heavy woofer/driver. And your 16 is even BIGGER.... I am hoping one my friends gets a PB 16 Ultra I want to listen to it and see if it blows away my 13.

It's a shame a few of us get a lemmon as so many or sold and never have a amp issue. How old is your other 16? I have been reading posts on other forums about my PB 13 Ultra. The UP side is SVS Customer Service and return policy is awesome......like I said I wish every vendor I have purchased equipment treated me the same way after a sale as SVS does.... and mine is USED. KUDO's to SVS.
Hi Louis,

Since you say that you have an older 13 Ultra, I assume that it has the 700 watt amp. The 1000 watt amp of the newer 13 Ultras probably only increased the output by about a decibel or so. That should let me make a fair comparison of the PB13 and the PB16 for you. I had multiple Sledge amp PB13's, and I kept one of them as a nearfield sub, when I traded up for my 16's.

I would not say that the PB16 completely blows the 13 away, but it definitely has a deeper and more authoritative sound. Some note its smoothness, as well, but I would rather concentrate on output. The max output above about 35Hz is the same for both the 1000 watt PB13 and for the PB16. Where the 16 pulls ahead is in the lower frequencies, where it averages about a 4db increase. That would probably be 5db, compared to the older 700 watt PB13.

To put that in perspective, at below about 30Hz, a 5db increase in SPL is perceived as a doubling in volume. That's an idiosyncrasy of the Equal Loudness Contours, where ordinarily a 10db increase in SPL is perceived as a doubling in loudness. That is, in my opinion, the reason that the PB16 has a somewhat weightier sound than the PB13, even at moderate volume levels. You would like the new PB16, and it looks cool and has some nice features, but it wouldn't be a night-and-day difference from your current sub.

Regards,
Mike
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post #26028 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post
Did you keep the shipping box etc if so rent a a refrigerator dolly that is tall and has padding. it's super easy to turn around backwards and lean the dolly back and walk it up each step. They are just going to replace the woofer and plate amp with new wires from speaker terminal to spade clips on the main board. Check for burt insolation or replace ALL the insulation so the BURNT SMELL is gone ( I would email Tim and ask about that) .

While my amp is removed I can see the brace in my 13, one of them has a hole in it the size of the huge back magnet. I guess so the basket case screws in the front are not taking all the weight of this heavy woofer/driver. And your 16 is even BIGGER.... I am hoping one my friends gets a PB 16 Ultra I want to listen to it and see if it blows away my 13.

It's a shame a few of us get a lemmon as so many or sold and never have a amp issue. How old is your other 16? I have been reading posts on other forums about my PB 13 Ultra. The UP side is SVS Customer Service and return policy is awesome......like I said I wish every vendor I have purchased equipment treated me the same way after a sale as SVS does.... and mine is USED. KUDO's to SVS.
I was hoping I would just have to replace the amp and not send the sub back. A friend of mine has a larger dolly I could borrow if I had to. But I figured with the woofer getting warm and the burnt smell that the whole thing would probably have to be returned,that is one bad thing about buying a larger sub. I bought my first pb16 about two months ago. One sub is nice but adding a second really makes a big difference. I just hope when I get this one back I won't have to worry about this again. I had my svs pb12 five years with no problems.
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post #26029 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 02:28 PM
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Hi Louis,

Since you say that you have an older 13 Ultra, I assume that it has the 700 watt amp. The 1000 watt amp of the newer 13 Ultras probably only increased the output by about a decibel or so. That should let me make a fair comparison of the PB13 and the PB16 for you. I had multiple Sledge amp PB13's, and I kept one of them as a nearfield sub, when I traded up for my 16's.

I would not say that the PB16 completely blows the 13 away, but it definitely has a deeper and more authoritative sound. Some note its smoothness, as well, but I would rather concentrate on output. The max output above about 35Hz is the same for both the 1000 watt PB13 and for the PB16. Where the 16 pulls ahead is in the lower frequencies, where it averages about a 4db increase. That would probably be 5db, compared to the older 700 watt PB13.

To put that in perspective, at below about 30Hz, a 5db increase in SPL is perceived as a doubling in volume. That's an idiosyncrasy of the Equal Loudness Contours, where ordinarily a 10db increase in SPL is perceived as a doubling in loudness. That is, in my opinion, the reason that the PB16 has a somewhat weightier sound than the PB13, even at moderate volume levels. You would like the new PB16, and it looks cool and has some nice features, but it wouldn't be a night-and-day difference from your current sub.




Regards,
Mike

Thanks Mike.I compared the specs and they look impressive for sure. I wish someone that has a PB 16 Ultra that lives in the DFW Tx area would play it for me.

The 1st owner (Greg) of my PB 13 Ultra received the new Sledge when the BASH failed then he fried that Sledge a few years later and replaced it with another new one. Then he sold the sub ( he has two) to my friend and we JAMMED it for several years then that Sledge failed. Owner #2 my friend (james) purchased a new Sledge 1000 in Set 2014 and it's good until 2019. SO now the 4th amp ( one BASH & 3 Sledge) has just failed and it's about 10 or 11 years old.

I used a Ohm meter the driver reads just over 4 ohms. I used a 9 volt battery and cone made a stroke. Wires from driver to amp look perfect except for one othe the spades on the end of the woofer wires that slide on the board (the black Ground ) - is melted on the board. Plus the insulation smells like burnt wires etc so I have a fan on low blowing fresh air thru the open end of the cabinet until the new Sledge arrives next week.


Just my bad luck as so many SVS owners never have this issue like this one has had. But BOTH owners before me had it in a HUGE room and it needed several 16's in these rooms to get the" Tactical Hit" this one 13 does in this 10x14' carpeted den. I have it turned down big time from where it was set at in those rooms. Cross my fingers this amp will last a bit longer then the others have. I will call SVS when I install it and make sure I have it adjusted correctly to start before I run my AVR room correction program.

Regards

Louis
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post #26030 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 03:21 PM
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I got my sub boxed up and up the stairs with help from the wife! I should have used a dolly like Louis suggested!!The pb16s are nice subs except for when you have to move them.
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post #26031 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mzs22 View Post
I got my sub boxed up and up the stairs with help from the wife! I should have used a dolly like Louis suggested!!The pb16s are nice subs except for when you have to move them.
Yeah, I bought a cheap, sturdy yet made in America dolly off Amazon years ago. Don't use it much, but it's a lifesaver on the rare occasion I need it.

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post #26032 of 26287 Old 04-02-2017, 03:54 PM
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Yeah, I bought a cheap, sturdy yet made in America dolly off Amazon years ago. Don't use it much, but it's a lifesaver on the rare occasion I need it.
Harbor Freight has a stair one for $89 and they always have 20% off coupons,it has good reviews for it.
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post #26033 of 26287 Old 04-09-2017, 01:30 PM
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I recently bought a PB 13 Ultra from SVS outlet. I was a little hesitant at first, I am very glad I pulled the trigger. The damage is minimal and on the underside of the front lip. Great sub, great company.

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post #26034 of 26287 Old 04-11-2017, 11:58 AM
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Curious,
What's the thought on combining my PC-13 Ultra with a HSU VTF MK3? I found a good deal on it and was thinking of getting another sub for nearfield only in combo with the ultra since I stupidly sold my PB10 and PB12 to pay for the ultra.

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post #26035 of 26287 Old 04-11-2017, 02:24 PM
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Curious,
What's the thought on combining my PC-13 Ultra with a HSU VTF MK3? I found a good deal on it and was thinking of getting another sub for nearfield only in combo with the ultra since I stupidly sold my PB10 and PB12 to pay for the ultra.
This should work fine. Just match the port tuning frequencies as closely as possible to minimize phase cancellation near tuning.

And I would confirm they are the same electrical polarity (with both phases set to 0) by placing them side-by-side (individually level matched), and then play the AVR rumble tone - you should see at least a 4-5 dB increase in SPL over a single subwoofer.
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post #26036 of 26287 Old 04-11-2017, 05:52 PM
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My replacement amp for my PB 13 Ultra arrived today They sent new wires, connectors and the drive tool for the new screws too. Tomorrow when the wife goes to work I will run the room correction program in my AVR if I can find when I put it last time I used it.... so I called SVS and a tech told me to Disable the LOW PASS and adjust the volume to my liking until I find the mic.

I looked at the Merlin Quick Start Guide for my fronts, Klipsch Cornwall set the AVR cross over freq 50-60 Hz I have always used 60 with the speakers set as small. Set AVR Low pass Filter 31.5 Hz and Slope Low Pass at 24 dB octave. I found the setting in the AVR for the cross over freq and it is at 60 but the Yamaha YAPO menu does not show me Low pass Filter or Slope for the Sub???? Any Yamaha owners that use YAPO.... need advise.
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post #26037 of 26287 Old 04-11-2017, 09:04 PM
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Hoping to get some opinions. I currently have dual pc 13 ultras in a 20 ft x 10 ft rectangular room with 10 ft ceiling. I use my system (5.1.2) mainly for movies and tv. I'm inside my 45 day trial and questioning if I should trade up to dual sb 16 ultras. Due to space constraints my choices are between my pc 13 ultras or the sb 16 ultras. I would love the pb 16 ultras but no way I have the room....even the pb 13 ultras are too big for my space. Would there be much of a difference in output/punch between the sb 16 and pc 13 for movie watching? Night and day or minimal? What about tactical feel/room pressure? I realize I'm not comparing Apple's to Apple's but I'm trying to get the most bang for the limited space where the subs sit. Thanks
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post #26038 of 26287 Old 04-12-2017, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by aschmoldt View Post
Hoping to get some opinions. I currently have dual pc 13 ultras in a 20 ft x 10 ft rectangular room with 10 ft ceiling. I use my system (5.1.2) mainly for movies and tv. I'm inside my 45 day trial and questioning if I should trade up to dual sb 16 ultras. Due to space constraints my choices are between my pc 13 ultras or the sb 16 ultras. I would love the pb 16 ultras but no way I have the room....even the pb 13 ultras are too big for my space. Would there be much of a difference in output/punch between the sb 16 and pc 13 for movie watching? Night and day or minimal? What about tactical feel/room pressure? I realize I'm not comparing Apple's to Apple's but I'm trying to get the most bang for the limited space where the subs sit. Thanks
Hard to believe you need more LFE than what you are getting now from two PC13 Ultras ! That's not that big a room.

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post #26039 of 26287 Old 04-12-2017, 10:50 AM
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Rattle Battle ! When you have two SVS PC12+ cylinder subs, and like watching movies like " Hacksaw Ridge " loud, things can rattle. " Loctite - keeping home theaters from falling apart for over 20 years ".


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post #26040 of 26287 Old 04-12-2017, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
This should work fine. Just match the port tuning frequencies as closely as possible to minimize phase cancellation near tuning.

And I would confirm they are the same electrical polarity (with both phases set to 0) by placing them side-by-side (individually level matched), and then play the AVR rumble tone - you should see at least a 4-5 dB increase in SPL over a single subwoofer.

Well, I have my Ultra at 16hz. I find it sounds better this way than open tuning.


I found out the sub is a HSU STF 3, not VTF. This goes down to 25hz, with maybe 1-2hz in room extension. We're still talking about 16hz vs 23hz at best. Bad match?

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