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post #26101 of 26243 Old 04-25-2017, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cchunter View Post
Dual 12's aren't quite an Ultra. Especially the NSD'S. Your much closer with dual SB2000's but not the NSD's.
Yeah, I looked at the chart again. If I understand co located subs correctly, the NSD's should be about the same 40 Hz and below, but not so much above that. If I ever play loudly enough to overload them again, I may try lowering the crossover to 60 Hz to see if the Klipsches can take the load off.

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post #26102 of 26243 Old 04-26-2017, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by stash64 View Post
Why would the SB2000 performance be so different from the NSD ? Is it not the same 12" driver with just a 100 watt advantage from the amp ?
They are very close, but SVS did make some changes to the NSD driver for the 2000. They look to be pretty much neck and neck at 20hz,25hz and 31hz with the SB2000 only having a dB or so more output. Between 40-80hz the 2000 averages 2-3dB over the NSD. I think it's probably a combination of changes to the driver, a little more amp power (the NSD is amp limited from 25hz and up) and perhaps easing up on the limiters
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post #26103 of 26243 Old 04-26-2017, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
They are very close, but SVS did make some changes to the NSD driver for the 2000. They look to be pretty much neck and neck at 20hz,25hz and 31hz with the SB2000 only having a dB or so more output. Between 40-80hz the 2000 averages 2-3dB over the NSD. I think it's probably a combination of changes to the driver, a little more amp power (the NSD is amp limited from 25hz and up) and perhaps easing up on the limiters
The 2000 is a totally new sub. New amp, new driver, new connecting wires, new enclosure. They just don't remake subs and call them something else.

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post #26104 of 26243 Old 04-26-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post
The 2000 is a totally new sub. New amp, new driver, new connecting wires, new enclosure. They just don't remake subs and call them something else.
Right - the SB-2000 has on average 3-3.5 dB higher max output across the entire pass band (so call it 1.5X stronger on average). The 2000 driver is more robust (even though they look similar) with respect to power handling, and the Sledge 500 has considerably more real world power than the 100W difference in power ratings would otherwise suggest.
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post #26105 of 26243 Old 04-27-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Right - the SB-2000 has on average 3-3.5 dB higher max output across the entire pass band (so call it 1.5X stronger on average). The 2000 driver is more robust (even though they look similar) with respect to power handling, and the Sledge 500 has considerably more real world power than the 100W difference in power ratings would otherwise suggest.
Thanks, Ed! Does the same thing hold true for the difference between the PB12 (or PC) NSD and the newer ported 2000 models? This kind of question comes up fairly frequently on various threads, and I had it wrong.

Regards,
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post #26106 of 26243 Old 04-27-2017, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks, Ed! Does the same thing hold true for the difference between the PB12 (or PC) NSD and the newer ported 2000 models? This kind of question comes up fairly frequently on various threads, and I had it wrong.

Regards,
Mike
They are close at 16/20 Hz (mostly port and box size), and above that (25-80 Hz) the PB/PC-2000 has about +3 dB over the NSD.
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post #26107 of 26243 Old 04-27-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
They are close at 16/20 Hz (mostly port and box size), and above that (25-80 Hz) the PB/PC-2000 has about +3 dB over the NSD.
Thank you again!
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post #26108 of 26243 Old 04-27-2017, 06:46 PM
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The SB12-NSD isn't quite the bargain it was just 3 days ago. Apparently Huppins/Onecall realized they are the only internet seller that still has them in stock, and brought the price up $50. I would suspect that means they are low stock, and selling reasonably well, probably partially due to all the recommendations on AVS.

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post #26109 of 26243 Old 04-27-2017, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks, Ed! Does the same thing hold true for the difference between the PB12 (or PC) NSD and the newer ported 2000 models? This kind of question comes up fairly frequently on various threads, and I had it wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
They are close at 16/20 Hz (mostly port and box size), and above that (25-80 Hz) the PB/PC-2000 has about +3 dB over the NSD.
Just wanted to jump in with a brief subjective PB 2000 comment...

We periodically encounter posts requesting comparisons/opinions between various ID subs within the PB-2000's value range. Databass, test report, and various anecdotal GTG information will surface supporting the prowess of one sub over the other. Although the numbers do tell a story, they do not tell how a sub sounds. And most of us understand that a room's physical and acoustic properties, sub location(s), and proper set up all influence a sub's performance. Having said this and as a previous owner of dual PB-2000's, I still hold them in high regard relative to FR and in particular sound signature and sound quality in medium sized and even some large rooms for both movies and music. To put this in perspective, I've auditioned in my home comparable and larger products from PSA and JTR. Also, as you're both aware, I've recently owned PB-13 Ultras and currently own the PB-16's. Some subs may/will outperform the PB-2000's in terms of output. However, IMO few have better sound quality. YMMV
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post #26110 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
They are close at 16/20 Hz (mostly port and box size), and above that (25-80 Hz) the PB/PC-2000 has about +3 dB over the NSD.
Ed,

When you get a chance, would you please explain the Room Gain Compensation feature of the PB16? The Owner's Manual doesn't provide much information on what it actually does, or how to employ it. Does it boost the selected frequency by some fixed amount, or does it cut the selected frequency? It sounds more like attenuation to me, but I don't remember seeing an explanation of it. I am also not clear on what the RGC slope of 6db or 12db does in this context.

Thanks for the help!

Regards,
Mike
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post #26111 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks, Ed! Does the same thing hold true for the difference between the PB12 (or PC) NSD and the newer ported 2000 models? This kind of question comes up fairly frequently on various threads, and I had it wrong.

Regards,
Mike
Not meaning to step on Ed's toes but thought I'd throw my 2c in as I had one of each (PB12-NSD & PB-2000) and ran them together for several months. Whilst the PB-2000 definitely had a bit more impact in the mid-bass range , I noticed the difference waaaayyy more down low. In my room the NSD had very little output under 17-18hz. The PB-2000 on the other hand still has noticeable output around the 15hz range . The Edge of Tomorrow intro would show this off very easily, with the NSD only playing the first 3 tones (30,25,20) and only some minimal cone movement on the 15hz tone. The PB-2000 shakes the house on the 15hz tone. The WWZ hand grenade scene is another where the NSD would drop off about half way through the sweep, whereas the PB-2000 does this scene very well.
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post #26112 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Not meaning to step on Ed's toes but thought I'd throw my 2c in as I had one of each (PB12-NSD & PB-2000) and ran them together for several months. Whilst the PB-2000 definitely had a bit more impact in the mid-bass range , I noticed the difference waaaayyy more down low. In my room the NSD had very little output under 17-18hz. The PB-2000 on the other hand still has noticeable output around the 15hz range . The Edge of Tomorrow intro would show this off very easily, with the NSD only playing the first 3 tones (30,25,20) and only some minimal cone movement on the 15hz tone. The PB-2000 shakes the house on the 15hz tone. The WWZ hand grenade scene is another where the NSD would drop off about half way through the sweep, whereas the PB-2000 does this scene very well.
I concur...had the same experience with the same scenes. Not only does the PB-2000's response go that low but it sounds good doing it. Other subs seem to "rumble" while the PB-2000 for lack of better descriptors plays...tight, smooth, clean, and clear.
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post #26113 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 10:25 AM
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I recently relocated an old rarely used PB10-NSD to my theater room to see what would happen. I've got it behind my MLP for nearfield impact. Wow. Aside from throwing my back out lifting it improperly, I'm starting to get used to it. I actually had to turn the gain down a little bit as it was a little overwhelming and threw off the balance in the room.

I'm still playing with it, but so far...yeah. PB10 + 2x PB-2000 is pretty awesome so far. That's a lot of bass for my little theater.
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post #26114 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 11:50 AM
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SALE OR TRADE my SVS PC-2000: Hi SVS people - I'm in the NYC area and would love to trade my like new PC-2000 for a PB-2000 on the off chance that fits anyone's needs. My place is just too small for the PC-2000, so going back to a cube works for us. If anyone's interested in just buying it, I'll do $675.

P.S. My apologies if I've posted this in the wrong place - kind of new here.
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post #26115 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Ed,

When you get a chance, would you please explain the Room Gain Compensation feature of the PB16? The Owner's Manual doesn't provide much information on what it actually does, or how to employ it. Does it boost the selected frequency by some fixed amount, or does it cut the selected frequency? It sounds more like attenuation to me, but I don't remember seeing an explanation of it. I am also not clear on what the RGC slope of 6db or 12db does in this context.

Thanks for the help!

Regards,
Mike
I found this digging around their site.


"ROOM GAIN COMPENSATION
This menu option compensates for excessive amounts of ‘room gain’ (a rising low-end bass response most common in smaller listening rooms). Excessive room gain can create a bloated or bottom-heavy sound from the subwoofer.

The acoustic roll-of slope of the SB13-Ultra is designed to complement available room gain in most listening spaces, so this menu control is rarely used with the SB13-Ultra. It is more commonly used with the SVS variable tune models (PB12-Plus, PC12-Plus, PB13-Ultra, PC13-Ultra).

The room gain compensation control is adjustable for frequency (40 Hz, 31.5 Hz, 25 Hz) and slope (6 dB/octave and 12 dB/octave). When enabled, this control will reduce the output of the subwoofer below the selected frequency. The steeper the selected slope, the more aggressive the effect. The factory default setting is Disabled.

AVR: If the A/V receiver set-up function equalizes the subwoofer channel (such as Audyssey MultEQ XT or XT32), the room gain compensation control is not required. If the A/V receiver set-up function does not equalize the subwoofer channel, the room gain compensation may be beneficial to reduce excessive amounts of low-frequency energy in smaller listening rooms to help restore a more balanced presentation.

2-CH: If excessive amounts of low-frequency energy are present in smaller listening spaces and the presentation seems bloated or bottom-heavy, the room gain compensation may be beneficial to help restore a more balanced sound."


Clicky

Dunno if that answers your question, but I'm guessing it's more descriptive than the manual.
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post #26116 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Pogre View Post
I found this digging around their site.


"ROOM GAIN COMPENSATION
This menu option compensates for excessive amounts of ‘room gain’ (a rising low-end bass response most common in smaller listening rooms). Excessive room gain can create a bloated or bottom-heavy sound from the subwoofer.

The acoustic roll-of slope of the SB13-Ultra is designed to complement available room gain in most listening spaces, so this menu control is rarely used with the SB13-Ultra. It is more commonly used with the SVS variable tune models (PB12-Plus, PC12-Plus, PB13-Ultra, PC13-Ultra).

The room gain compensation control is adjustable for frequency (40 Hz, 31.5 Hz, 25 Hz) and slope (6 dB/octave and 12 dB/octave). When enabled, this control will reduce the output of the subwoofer below the selected frequency. The steeper the selected slope, the more aggressive the effect. The factory default setting is Disabled.

AVR: If the A/V receiver set-up function equalizes the subwoofer channel (such as Audyssey MultEQ XT or XT32), the room gain compensation control is not required. If the A/V receiver set-up function does not equalize the subwoofer channel, the room gain compensation may be beneficial to reduce excessive amounts of low-frequency energy in smaller listening rooms to help restore a more balanced presentation.

2-CH: If excessive amounts of low-frequency energy are present in smaller listening spaces and the presentation seems bloated or bottom-heavy, the room gain compensation may be beneficial to help restore a more balanced sound."


Clicky

Dunno if that answers your question, but I'm guessing it's more descriptive than the manual.

Thank you very much! That's exactly the kind of description I was looking for. I assumed that the RGC attenuated only, rather than boosting, but the question came up in another thread, and I wanted to be sure.

Regards,
Mike
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post #26117 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much! That's exactly the kind of description I was looking for. I assumed that the RGC attenuated only, rather than boosting, but the question came up in another thread, and I wanted to be sure.

Regards,
Mike
The RGC is essentially an adjustable high pass filter. It attenuates output below the selected frequency. The rate of attenuation is defined by the slope (6 dB/octave or 12 dB/octave).
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post #26118 of 26243 Old 04-28-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
The RGC is essentially an adjustable high pass filter. It attenuates output below the selected frequency. The rate of attenuation is defined by the slope (6 dB/octave or 12 dB/octave).
Thanks, Ed! I appreciate the additional clarification.
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post #26119 of 26243 Old 04-29-2017, 07:07 PM
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Can I get away with adding two Evaluation Atmos in the rear of my HT if I already have a pair of PSB XA in the front?

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post #26121 of 26243 Old 05-02-2017, 02:55 PM
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Can I get away with adding two Evaluation Atmos in the rear of my HT if I already have a pair of PSB XA in the front?
Sure - the two speakers have a similar design and timbre matching will be close too. The Prime Elevation can be mounted on the ceiling and we now have in stock a small safety block which inserts between the two brackets to keep them from separating in a ceiling mount application. Just ask for that when you place the order - no charge.
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post #26122 of 26243 Old 05-03-2017, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Whilst the PB-2000 definitely had a bit more impact in the mid-bass range , I noticed the difference waaaayyy more down low. In my room the NSD had very little output under 17-18hz. The PB-2000 on the other hand still has noticeable output around the 15hz range .
This is supposedly true on the sealed versions as well. I can't speak to the SB12-NSD, but I have the SB2000's and they have a very gentle roll-off at the bottom that maximizes room gain. It's not just marketing - in my room I get pretty flat response down to 5 Hz according to REW. Granted my room is sealed but it's 2700 cu ft so not tiny. Now it's not a lot of output that low - just shy of 100 dB with duals - but enough to be felt.

As for whether to go dual or single, I agree it all depends what you think you might upgrade to. I don't think a one dB difference can be heard, even side-by-side, so all three choices are probably too close to make that a criteria. Duals can make a big difference in smoothing out the bass, both at MLP and at other seats. Plus smaller sealed subs can be easier to place in a sweet spot than a big ported one. The SB13 has the added advantage of more controls to tailor the sub to your room, though. And I've read in many places that it just sounds better too, especially for music.

tough call, but if it were my money, and I thought the purchase was a one-time investment, I'd go with the dual NSD's. Any chance I'll invest more later, even several years later, and I'd get the Ultra.
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post #26123 of 26243 Old 05-05-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Magellan55 View Post
This is supposedly true on the sealed versions as well. I can't speak to the SB12-NSD, but I have the SB2000's and they have a very gentle roll-off at the bottom that maximizes room gain. It's not just marketing - in my room I get pretty flat response down to 5 Hz according to REW. Granted my room is sealed but it's 2700 cu ft so not tiny. Now it's not a lot of output that low - just shy of 100 dB with duals - but enough to be felt.

As for whether to go dual or single, I agree it all depends what you think you might upgrade to. I don't think a one dB difference can be heard, even side-by-side, so all three choices are probably too close to make that a criteria. Duals can make a big difference in smoothing out the bass, both at MLP and at other seats. Plus smaller sealed subs can be easier to place in a sweet spot than a big ported one. The SB13 has the added advantage of more controls to tailor the sub to your room, though. And I've read in many places that it just sounds better too, especially for music.

tough call, but if it were my money, and I thought the purchase was a one-time investment, I'd go with the dual NSD's. Any chance I'll invest more later, even several years later, and I'd get the Ultra.
I just invested in a second SB13 about a month ago. Took me 3 yrs to get it but it was well worth it. My room is a little over 2000 cu ft and they impress me bigtime. I went back and forth 3 yrs ago between dual PB2000's or a single SB13. I opted for the 13 because of the small footprint but knowing it would take time to get a second but glad I made that choice and it was worth the wait.

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post #26124 of 26243 Old 05-06-2017, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by apexgrin View Post
After considering DIY for subs I ended up going with dual PB-1000's to start, they're on the way.
I've had the dual 1000's for a couple weeks now and I'm definitely impressed. I ran Audyssey after getting them connected (one wireless) and I have a mic + boom mic stand on the way for more fine tuning in REW.

I'm wondering if I should go ahead and send them back to swap out for PB-2000's though? I can afford it and my space is pretty big (no WAF limits, she's on board), the 1000's are moving a LOT sometimes and I'm worried about not having much headroom at higher volume. I'm also feeling some tactile bass in some scenes without hearing much, wondering if the 2000's will crank that up noticeably.

This is my space, open to dining/kitchen behind the camera and down the hallway/entry to the right + vaulted ceilings, any thoughts?


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post #26125 of 26243 Old 05-06-2017, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apexgrin View Post
I've had the dual 1000's for a couple weeks now and I'm definitely impressed. I ran Audyssey after getting them connected (one wireless) and I have a mic + boom mic stand on the way for more fine tuning in REW.

I'm wondering if I should go ahead and send them back to swap out for PB-2000's though? I can afford it and my space is pretty big (no WAF limits, she's on board), the 1000's are moving a LOT sometimes and I'm worried about not having much headroom at higher volume. I'm also feeling some tactile bass in some scenes without hearing much, wondering if the 2000's will crank that up noticeably.

This is my space, open to dining/kitchen behind the camera and down the hallway/entry to the right + vaulted ceilings, any thoughts?

Do it. The PB2000 will play louder and lower. DO IT!

What do you think of the RP-450c? I just got the rp-250c in today, and it seems good so far, and I have RP-260 on the way.
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post #26126 of 26243 Old 05-06-2017, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
Do it. The PB2000 will play louder and lower. DO IT!

What do you think of the RP-450c? I just got the rp-250c in today, and it seems good so far, and I have RP-260 on the way.
Love the 450. I keep the grill on so I don't get distracted during movies, but it definitely has a nice wide sound vs. the little HTIB center I had before. I originally planned to move the 250F's to side surrounds in favor of the 260's up front but I don't think it's necessary for the 90% movies/series I watch with plenty of sub to back them up.

How are the PC-2000's? They are the same price as the PB's and I really liked the sound of my little down-firing Dynamo 300 even though it couldn't pump out high volume. Is the outside a fabric? If so, no go. My cat who is occasionally around would go straight for them.

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post #26127 of 26243 Old 05-06-2017, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apexgrin View Post
Love the 450. I keep the grill on so I don't get distracted during movies, but it definitely has a nice wide sound vs. the little HTIB center I had before. I originally planned to move the 250F's to side surrounds in favor of the 260's up front but I don't think it's necessary for the 90% movies/series I watch with plenty of sub to back them up.

How are the PC-2000's? They are the same price as the PB's and I really liked the sound of my little down-firing Dynamo 300 even though it couldn't pump out high volume. Is the outside a fabric? If so, no go. My cat who is occasionally around would go straight for them.
I believe the PC-2000 have similar performance to the PB-2000. The picture on their website looks like fabric, but I don't know for sure.

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post #26128 of 26243 Old 05-06-2017, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apexgrin View Post
Love the 450. I keep the grill on so I don't get distracted during movies, but it definitely has a nice wide sound vs. the little HTIB center I had before. I originally planned to move the 250F's to side surrounds in favor of the 260's up front but I don't think it's necessary for the 90% movies/series I watch with plenty of sub to back them up.

How are the PC-2000's? They are the same price as the PB's and I really liked the sound of my little down-firing Dynamo 300 even though it couldn't pump out high volume. Is the outside a fabric? If so, no go. My cat who is occasionally around would go straight for them.
I agree that the PB2000's would be a nice upgrade. You would get increased headroom and lower extension. The PC's do have fabric on the outside of the cylinder. Some people have described them as natural cat scratching posts in the past. I would just go with the PB2000's in your situation.

Regards,
Mike
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post #26129 of 26243 Old 05-07-2017, 04:55 PM
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Quick question: am I missing out on not using the XLR balanced input?

Dont really have an option as I have a PC 13 Ultra but receiver and amps. I'm running unbalanced 20 foot rca cable.

Those who have the sledge 1000 with xlr and running it with a pre/pro, do you find a noticable clarity or spl improvenent over rca?
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post #26130 of 26243 Old 05-07-2017, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by apexgrin View Post
I've had the dual 1000's for a couple weeks now and I'm definitely impressed...I'm wondering if I should go ahead and send them back to swap out for PB-2000's though?
Yes.. @drh3b and @mthomas47 have already provided very good impetus and justification for doing so ...particularly if you're a movie fan. I will add that if there are no WAF and budget constraints, why not take advantage of SVS's "Bill of Rights." The adage/mantra on these threads is there is no such thing as having too much sub and always buy the best/most your budget allows at any given time. And lastly, the upgrade will alleviate the "what if" syndrome and satisfy or at least delay the urge to upgrade further...which will occur naturally over time anyway!
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