The Master List of DVD, HD-DVD & Blu-ray Movies with BASS Thread...With WaterFalls - Page 124 - AVS Forum
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post #3691 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Here are my findings.

The Non-Imax version is clearly 4db louder on every single scene, producing more LFE and just more overall sound.

So what I did was I tested the IMAX copy at -4db Master Volume and the other copy at -8db MV.

So basically they were equally as loud, but I think..."THINK" the NON-IMAX version just had a little more depth to the sound.

I by NO MEANS would run out and get rid of my IMAX version, but if the IMAX version gets a 98 for Audio I'd give the other version a 100.

So are you running them at the same relative level? For example, you say the non IMAX versiom is 4 dB louder, so just turn the IMAX version up 4dB. Over at BR.com, there is some discussion that the IMAX version has better dynamic range.
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post #3692 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 05:19 PM
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I've got both versions....my wife got me the standard version, and as I was watching, I didn't see it switch aspect ratio, so I went out and got the big screen version later to compare and see which one I wanted to keep...

Unless the people who mixed the two versions mixed them at different levels (which they shouldn't have, as reference level is clearly defined as 75dB for a signal that is -30dBFS), the version with the stronger peaks should have the higher dynamic range...

Do not get me wrong, they both sound great....I just would like to know which is more faithful to the theatrical mix....

JSS
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post #3693 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 05:22 PM
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I wonder if the DST Core tracks are different as well?

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post #3694 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 05:40 PM
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OK I just watched and rewatched and rewatched again and again the OPENING 2mins up to where the giant decipticon comes alive and produces some massive bass by pounding his fists into the ground.

I watched the IMAX version 4db louder than the other version which puts them on EQUAL loudness playing fields.

I HONESTLY cannot tell a difference in the quality of the sound between the two when they are equally matched. IF you watch them at the same volume of course the non-imax version will sound more powerful, but when equaled out they sound exactly alike, and my spl meter reads EXACTLY the same readings on both movies.

Where he pounds the ground and flips over the tubing I hit 116db on BOTH movies at that point. When the IMAX was played 4db louder.

I think the moral of my experiment is simple...if you want the Extra punch of the IMAX visuals then simply just turn up the volume 4db MORE and you will have the exact same audio experience as the other version.

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post #3695 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 05:45 PM
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I just compared the two bd's....the IMAX version has a -4dB dialnorm correction (shows up on my receiver menu when it is playing), the standard version does not...

Verified here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1189560

Looks like I was dead wrong about the compression argument...

Just as noted above, a 4dB change in volume should give you the exact same experience...

JSS
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post #3696 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Here are my findings.

The Non-Imax version is clearly 4db louder on every single scene, producing more LFE and just more overall sound.

So what I did was I tested the IMAX copy at -4db Master Volume and the other copy at -8db MV.

So basically they were equally as loud, but I think..."THINK" the NON-IMAX version just had a little more depth to the sound.

I by NO MEANS would run out and get rid of my IMAX version, but if the IMAX version gets a 98 for Audio I'd give the other version a 100.



If you can do so, check the dialnorm value of each track.
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post #3697 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 06:04 PM
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I thought dialnorm was only a dd thing and not DTS.
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post #3698 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I thought dialnorm was only a dd thing and not DTS.

That's what I thought because dialnorm was the first thing that came to mind when I read about the 4dB difference.

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post #3699 of 5741 Old 10-21-2009, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If you can do so, check the dialnorm value of each track.



That is all it is. Just turn the IMAX version up 4db extra and you have the SAME audio experience as the other version.

I checked and rechecked and then checked again. Everything is the same when you just add +4db to the IMAX version.

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post #3700 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I thought dialnorm was only a dd thing and not DTS.


Dialnorm and DRC was always part of the DTS spec, but DTS chose to not use either for DVD production.

Some DD DVDs do not use dialnorm (AKA DN value = -31). Air Force One, the Lethal Weapon series, and most recently The Dark Knight do not use dialnorm.

What is new to most of us is the fact that DTS does now allow dialnorm to be used for BlueRay content.
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post #3701 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

That is all it is. Just turn the IMAX version up 4db extra and you have the SAME audio experience as the other version.

I checked and rechecked and then checked again. Everything is the same when you just add +4db to the IMAX version.



I own ther IMAX version of Apollo-13 and the standard DD version. The IMAX version does sound different (AKA better) in the bass department than the standard DD version.

I always have an open mind when it comes to these things, but the dialnorm value is the first thing that I check to make sure conditions are equal. As a matter of fact, what else is left to check except if they are both DTS versions or DD versions.
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post #3702 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

\\
One exception I can think of is the Todd-AO soundstage where BlackHawk Down was mixed, they trucked in 22 BagEnd subs to monitor the low end.....that's why the 7Hz content is so strong in that mix in the "Irene" scene....it's meant to to be there, and was monitored by the sound guys.

Something else to think about: On most mixing stages (like most theaters), the front and surround channels are usually high-passed around 40Hz (to prevent damage to the speakers, usually vented boxes tuned to around 40Hz), so if there is some extreme LF content there, the mixer cannot hear it, nor can the theater audience. If that low freq info stays on the track during DVD/Blu-Ray prduction, it is being reproduced by our subs due to bass management on our receivers....when it was never heard by the mixer...I wonder how often that happens.

JSS

All of our stages go down into the low teens so we can hear if there is anything down that low... on the stage I've been mixing on for the last 20 months, the mains all have 2 x 18" Bag End subs on each of them that are flat well into the teens, with the HPF set to DC..... we know what's going on down there. Those 6 Bag End's are in addition to the 16 x 18" Bag End subs we use for the LFE channel... most stages in town use a similar system to monitor the low end in the track.

What does happen, however, is that the SPL reference for HT is different than what we have as a standard.... this causes a couple of things to happen that can "mess" with the bass....

First off, all of the channels are equal, whereas we have the surround channels down 3db in relation to the mains (i.e. LCR at 85db each, LR and RR 82 each and 85 when played together...) This can add up to additional low end content from the surrounds in the sub channel (which is one area we don't compensate for on the stage, although we use Bag Ends for surrounds which are pretty beefy.

The other things that happens, because all of that information then comes from the sub in a bass managed HT setup, there is a greater interaction in the low end that tends to sound a little muddier, bloated and not as tight.. add into this the physical reality that even a 15' long HT can't fully reproduce a 80Hz tone, and you come to the realization that the low end experience is completely different... not wrong, just different.
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post #3703 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 11:54 AM
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FilmMixer,

Thanks for replying! That's great that you can monitor all the stuff down low, even on the screen channels(!)...but there are few cinemas that can do the same, which sucks for us, the audiences...that's the main reason I outfitted my HT, to reproduce more faithfully what you guys hear...

Wow, flat to the teens, at 115dB at your seat?? That is some POWER....I imagine these are all sealed subs with the BagEnd ELF circuitry...

...but I have a few questions...

Why are your surrounds 3dB down, but not 3dB down on the bluray disc, shouldn't the bluray have the same info theaters get? Is this just a formatting discrepancy?

What do you mean by a 15" room not reproducing an 80Hz tone? Do you mean the 15 inch drivers lots of people use for subs, or the 15 foot dimension of the room? My guess is the room....and yes, small rooms totally blow for low end response, but using multiple subwoofers to cancel room modes helps tremendously, and small rooms get cabin gain for free...but nothing beats having a large space with large speakers...

JSS
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post #3704 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

FilmMixer,

Thanks for replying! That's great that you can monitor all the stuff down low, even on the screen channels(!)...but there are few cinemas that can do the same, which sucks for us, the audiences...that's the main reason I outfitted my HT, to reproduce more faithfully what you guys hear...

Wow, flat to the teens, at 115dB at your seat?? That is some POWER....I imagine these are all sealed subs with the BagEnd ELF circuitry...

...but I have a few questions...

Why are your surrounds 3dB down, but not 3dB down on the bluray disc, shouldn't the bluray have the same info theaters get? Is this just a formatting discrepancy?

What do you mean by a 15" room not reproducing an 80Hz tone? Do you mean the 15 inch drivers lots of people use for subs, or the 15 foot dimension of the room? My guess is the room....and yes, small rooms totally blow for low end response, but using multiple subwoofers to cancel room modes helps tremendously, and small rooms get cabin gain for free...but nothing beats having a large space with large speakers...

JSS

A couple of things... we SPL cal the Sub for 89-90db, so max SPL is ~110, not 115..

83db for each of the surround channels comes from, I imagine, changing from mono surrounds when we were mixing in LCRS into discrete 5.1 in the early 90's..... I don't know the history, but that is the Dolby Standard, which is different form the recommended practice for HT.... but it's not apples to apples anyways, since we use an array of speakers, and most home theaters are set up with point source, single speaker surrounds... I also imagine that the music guys had something to do with the ITU standard, but I'm no expert on the why's or how's that occurred when they came up with that spec.

Yes, we use a bag end ELF system (which is a pain in the rear because of their gain structure.. but that's another story...) RAMSA 350W/8ohm amps per 18" sub.

Here's a picture of our Stage 1 in Hollywood... it's hard to see in this picture, put under the screen, you will see little white squares along the bottom wall near the floor... each one of those is an 18" Bag End sub.



In regards to the surround levels, the exact same information exists on the BR if it isn't remastered for a near field environment... so it's the same information, just playing back at a different reference SPL.. sometimes I will lower it for the home theater mix, but it usually sits in the track just right, and because it is now more point source, instead of arrayed, the translation is usually fairly close in regards to intent, which in the end is our goal..

Regarding my 15" comment.. yes it was supposed to be 15'... ~<15 feet is the wavelength of a 80Hz sine way...
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post #3705 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 01:15 PM
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^ Ummmm.....wow.

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Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #3706 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 01:20 PM
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FilmMixer, you have a DREAM job...
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I just watched ROTF. I like this movie. The soundtrack, though the LFE is largely above 20Hz, overall is superb, IMHO. The surround effects and the crafting of the effects is unique to the Transformers franchise and the visual effects are as good as it gets.

I ran spectrograph while I watched and printed the results from some of the LFE-heavy scenes. I use a reference ACOPacific mic, mic preamp and mic power supply, through an Edirol UA1000 interface, flat to 2Hz, with a subwoofer system that's flat in-room to 4Hz. These graphs were made with a microphone at the LP. The 1st posted pic has the color scale on it for reference. The system is not yet tweaked flat, but is +/-5dB from 4-250Hz, so, as there will be some deviations from the digital graph, it's pretty close:

Anything pink to whitish pink was at -5dBFS = LOUD.

First, the opening Dreamworks & Paramount logos:


Next, the Transformer logo:


Next, opening scene where the big Decepticon stomps the ancients:


Next, the Big Wheel Decepticon transforms:


More Big Wheels:


Decepticons land on and sink the aircraft carrier:


The Mac Daddy Decepticon assembles:


The Rail Gun wastes Mac Daddy on top of the pyramid:


Optimus gets revived, the big dude materializes and skewers him (this effect was the most fun on my system, with a great mix of low stuff and higher stuff):


That's it for now. I'll definitely be watching this one again... and again, and again.

I forgot to capture the battle in the forest where Optimus is killed. I'll probably post those when I get them made.

Bosso
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post #3708 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 02:30 PM
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This scene to me (where the decepticon comes together in the first 5mins and stomps the ground) had the most powerful LFE in the movie. Looks super hot around 35-40hz.


I also see in your plots there is some 10-20hz material that is overlapped with the 20-40hz material....it would be interesting to rewatch in 15hz mode to see if I pick that up more since I watched it in 20hz mode.

Lastly...THANKS for doing this! Can't wait to see when Prime falls to the ground with that sweeping bass note!

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post #3709 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 02:34 PM
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How about the scene where Optimus and Bumblebee bust in and save Sam from Megatron, then Optimus does the side/back flip in slo-mo?

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post #3710 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 02:52 PM
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^ ummmm.....wow.

+1 The acoustics must be just phenomenal in there...
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post #3711 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 02:53 PM
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Thank you, Bosso!

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #3712 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 03:27 PM
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FilmMixer,

Wow, very impressive....thanks again for answering all of my questions...a few more and I swear I'll stop...

So you guys cal your sub to a lower level than we are supposed to for HT? I would have never figured...

When you say 89-90dB, that's with a -20dBFS signal?, right? And it's not boosted again more by any more processing (like the LFE channel in HT recievers, that boosts 10dB)? That would definitely explain why LFE levels in HTs are decidedly higher than in cinema, as we cal our subs at 85dB with a -30dBFS signal, and mains and surrounds to 75dB with the same signal, whereas your subs run only a few dB hotter...

The gain structure the BagEnd INFRA integrator uses must be great and terrible for you guys...since it attenuates strong very low freq content to avoid overexcursion of the subwoofer driver...which menas that at very high levels, your response may no longer be flat to teens, due to driver excursion limitations...(the upside is response remains distortion-free at high levels) how do you account for that change in the freq response? More importantly, how do you avoid throwing in lots of low freq content that may be getting attenuated by the INFRA?

One last question: Reference levels in cinemas are damned loud, and I was wondering how someone could put up with levels like that over 8 hours a day without suffering permanent hearing damage...what steps do you guys take to prevent this? Because my ears ring if I watch more than 1 film in a row at 10 dB BELOW reference....


Thanks again,

JSS
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post #3713 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 03:32 PM
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Hey bosso,

Have you gotten a waterfall of when Sam is blasted by Megs (as he is being 'killed')? That seemed to contain some sub-20Hz content....

Even though this film doesn't have the sub-20Hz bass that this thread thrives on, it is so well done....I am very impressed, it is now #1 on the list for demo material...both visually and sonically...

Sooner or later I'll have to hook up the laprtop and SpecLab to the SW out on the receiver to see how low stuff was encoded at certain parts...

JSS
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post #3714 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

FilmMixer,

Wow, very impressive....thanks again for answering all of my questions...a few more and I swear I'll stop...

So you guys cal your sub to a lower level than we are supposed to for HT? I would have never figured...

When you say 89-90dB, that's with a -20dBFS signal?, right? And it's not boosted again more by any more processing (like the LFE channel in HT recievers, that boosts 10dB)? That would definitely explain why LFE levels in HTs are decidedly higher than in cinema, as we cal our subs at 85dB with a -30dBFS signal, and mains and surrounds to 75dB with the same signal, whereas your subs run only a few dB hotter...

The gain structure the BagEnd INFRA integrator uses must be great and terrible for you guys...since it attenuates strong very low freq content to avoid overexcursion of the subwoofer driver...which menas that at very high levels, your response may no longer be flat to teens, due to driver excursion limitations...(the upside is response remains distortion-free at high levels) how do you account for that change in the freq response? More importantly, how do you avoid throwing in lots of low freq content that may be getting attenuated by the INFRA?

One last question: Reference levels in cinemas are damned loud, and I was wondering how someone could put up with levels like that over 8 hours a day without suffering permanent hearing damage...what steps do you guys take to prevent this? Because my ears ring if I watch more than 1 film in a row at 10 dB BELOW reference....


Thanks again,

JSS

JSS.. I'm not an expert on the integrator.. I will ask those who are about the "scale of flatness..." It will also be effected by the Fletcher Munon curve (although bass in the lower registers are more felt and not "heard")... however, with the in-band gain structure, and the nature of having multiple subs (in our stage 16) I think we help in not over taxing the cones... I'll get some more info for you.... I can tell you that it took our resident tuning expert from Dolby a lot of time and effort to get it where it is today...

It should also be noted that even with the same tuning techniques and equipment, most of our rooms sound different in the LFE department, as do most cinemas..... close, but never identical....

In regards to mixing at "reference" levels, each mixer handles it differently.. some wear plugs on louder films.... I take breaks, and will sit in the back corner of the room while the FX guys go to town... also, it comes down to managing high end content (Greg Russell, who mixed TF2, has become a master at that.)

It also helps that all of our stages are flat and utilize the x-curve, which really helps since your high end is most at risk. And we are relatively distortion free, with plenty of power on reserve, so the "quality" of the sound is usually pristine.
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post #3715 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I just watched ROTF. I like this movie. The soundtrack, though the LFE is largely above 20Hz, overall is superb, IMHO. The surround effects and the crafting of the effects is unique to the Transformers franchise and the visual effects are as good as it gets.

I ran spectrograph while I watched and printed the results from some of the LFE-heavy scenes. I use a reference ACOPacific mic, mic preamp and mic power supply, through an Edirol UA1000 interface, flat to 2Hz, with a subwoofer system that's flat in-room to 4Hz. These graphs were made with a microphone at the LP. The 1st posted pic has the color scale on it for reference. The system is not yet tweaked flat, but is +/-5dB from 4-250Hz, so, as there will be some deviations from the digital graph, it's pretty close:

Anything pink to whitish pink was at -5dBFS = LOUD.

First, the opening Dreamworks & Paramount logos:


Bosso

The opening logos are WAY cool!!! Shakes my house. I figured it was around 16 Hz.
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post #3716 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post


A couple of things... we SPL cal the Sub for 89-90db, so max SPL is ~110, not 115..



What method is used to measure that LFE subwoofer calibration?

Band limited pink noise?

SPL meter? RTA? Other?
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post #3717 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by croseiv View Post

The opening logos are WAY cool!!! Shakes my house. I figured it was around 16 Hz.



33 Hz is more likely the frequency. Look at the difference in levels between 16 Hz and 33 Hz!
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post #3718 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 05:13 PM
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Bosso and Bgillyjcu,

What method do you use to save your waterfalls?
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post #3719 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

33 Hz is more likely the frequency. Look at the difference in levels between 16 Hz and 33 Hz!

Nah, it's the subsonic part there...33Hz dosen't shake very much (more feel and less hear). And I think you should be asking bossobass about the waterfalls.
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post #3720 of 5741 Old 10-22-2009, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

What method is used to measure that LFE subwoofer calibration?

Band limited pink noise?

SPL meter? RTA? Other?

When doing a room tuning, a set of 4 capsule matched mic's, along with an RTA, etc... our rooms are tuned by Dolby Film Mastering Engineers (which BTW has nothing to do with their products or codecs, but for the fact that they tune almost all the stages in town and add a great deal of consistency to the process, as each engineer has their own "kit" with matched mics, etc...), with tweaks and listening tests "requested" by us mixers. We are mostly using the DBX Drive Racks for EQ and time alignment.

As far as daily SPL check (we check SPL every morning) we use console pink noise at 0Vu/-20dbFs, full range which is then rolled off by the crossovers... it is measure with an analog Radio Shack meter (which is calibrated every 6-8 weeks...)
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