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post #4621 of 9618 Old 11-15-2010, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Got it. Thanks. Still don't like the trade-offs over a listening area vs. a single position.

BTW, my HP sounds great!

And please do keep enjoying your SubMersive HP.

The point I believe you are missing in the above discussion is that we are only tweaking the settings made by Audyssey which are effectively assumptions without any verification on Audyssey's part. You reference trade offs over the listening area. If we were adding post EQ to the subwoofer channel, then you might have substance for a complaint, but we are leaving all of the processing Audyssey has done to the response of each speaker channel. As I recall, we are instructed to carefully pick the first measurement location, as this *single location* is used for delay settings. As such, the delay is not optimized for all locations in the way the speaker correction is.

If we were setting up our home theater in a large back yard this delay calculation would be very simple and straight forward. Within a home theater and with real loudspeakers picking a precise delay time is anything but straight forward if you are looking at anything below 10kHz. The "automagic systems," as Dennis Erskine calls them, must make a best assumption on what will most often be relevant to what we hear to do their calculation. Getting a specific number with a few decimal points at the end doesn't mean the number is more correct. To steal a quote my Dad often uses, it's generally better to be reasonably correct than precisely wrong.

This also heads into the reason for delays to exist in a surround system at all. The early processors only offered delay adjustments (in milliseconds) for surround and center speakers. Later they realized it is a trivial calculation to allow users to instead set up delays by entering the measured distances to each speaker. Since the functions were already there it only made sense to include the subwoofer in the delay functions. The purpose of the delay adjustments for main speakers is to aide with multi-channel imaging and surround field envelopment. With the subwoofer being a single channel, it has no imaging effects for which this is needed. The delay setting for the subwoofer channel is there to keep the subwoofer in relative sync with the arrival of sound from the main speakers.

If the subwoofer's sound reaches the listener much sooner than the overlapping sounds from the main speakers (ie crossover range), it will call much more attention to itself and can cause localization issues. Arrival differences also affect how closely the crossovers actually function to the theoretical ideal. Unfortunately the theoretical ideal can only work ideally for a single location. When the arrival times for a given frequency range change, the summation between the two signals change and can range from a maximum of +6dB reference to either, or a deep cancellation of 20+dB. For reference, an 80Hz wavelength is just over 14' long. If we had a perfect 6dB summation at 80Hz and then added a 7' equivalent delay, we would then see a very deep notch at 80Hz. In the real world we are dealing with the interaction of many frequencies, where 1-6' can have quite significant effects on the resulting interaction.

I fully expect this aspect of auto-optimization will see continued revisions and improvements to the measurement, calculation and confirmation process. For a very simplified analogy, just because your favorite GPS Navigation system doesn't know that a bridge is removed for construction, I wouldn't expect you to drive off the bridge it directs you to take. In the case of audio setup, without some basic measurement systems we can't see out the front windshield that the bridge is out and the assumption of the computer is incorrect.

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post #4622 of 9618 Old 11-15-2010, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Unfortunately the theoretical ideal can only work ideally for a single location.

Presumably this applies also when delays are adjusted so the interactions are merely being shifted in the listening area. At least I would hope people are not doing this to the detriment of other listening positions (unless they have one person HTs !).

Geez this has to be causing HP fulfillment issues. Send me a bill.
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post #4623 of 9618 Old 11-15-2010, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Trial and error as well. I used either The 5.1 Audio Toolkit that Mark provides or Avia. One of the options on those disks will play a signal out of a front and same-side rear speaker simultaneously. While sitting in the LP adjust the rear distance until the image from that signal appears to come from the center of that wall. You will need to switch between the setup screen on your prepro to adjust the distance and the playing of the DVD. Adjust by the .2 foot increments until the image is where you want it and repeat for the other side of the room. Works like a champ and will really improve the whole envelopment phenomenon. It is certainly possible that the distance Audyssey comes up with will be correct but it has not been for my room and my speakers. IIRC I changed the distance by .4 feet for both speakers. fWIW I used to try to accomplish the wall centering trick by increasing the volume of the rear speakers but this is a lot better way.

I'd like to say I came up with that idea but I stole it from Mark Seaton. (who else).

+1 on this. Also learned this technique from Mark and its an easy way to dial in the HT. In the utah theather all the distances mark came up with are within a foot of audessy. I have extensively A/B'd Marks settings for the distances on the rears and his settings clearly make a more immersive soundfield. Ever since then I always use this test disc as part of the process of verifying and dialing in my setup. I have seen a few cases where audessy gets it perfectly but usually I just need to a 6in adjust on the distances to get it from very good to great. I will also comment that you can hear the effect of this from all listening positions and its not a case where we are only optimizing a single listening position. The effect is more dramatic from the center listening position but you can easily here in the image move even from the extreme listening positions.

Something most Submersive owners can check out for themselves for 0 cost using the test disc Mark provides.

Sean
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post #4624 of 9618 Old 11-15-2010, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sean_w_smith View Post

+1 on this. Also learned this technique from Mark and its an easy way to dial in the HT. In the utah theather all the distances mark came up with are within a foot of audessy. I have extensively A/B'd Marks settings for the distances on the rears and his settings clearly make a more immersive soundfield. Ever since then I always use this test disc as part of the process of verifying and dialing in my setup. I have seen a few cases where audessy gets it perfectly but usually I just need to a 6in adjust on the distances to get it from very good to great. I will also comment that you can hear the effect of this from all listening positions and its not a case where we are only optimizing a single listening position. The effect is more dramatic from the center listening position but you can easily here in the image move even from the extreme listening positions.

Something most Submersive owners can check out for themselves for 0 cost using the test disc Mark provides.

Sean

Fascinating - just wondering what AVR/pre-pro's you guys have. My Onkyo 875 (used as pre-pro) only has .5 foot increments for distance IIRC. Am I missing something/somewhere I can make .2 adjustments?

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post #4625 of 9618 Old 11-15-2010, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by allredp View Post

Fascinating - just wondering what AVR/pre-pro's you guys have. My Onkyo 875 (used as pre-pro) only has .5 foot increments for distance IIRC. Am I missing something/somewhere I can make .2 adjustments?

Onkyo 885 distance settings
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post #4626 of 9618 Old 11-15-2010, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Onkyo 885 distance settings

Thanks - hopefully .5 will get me lucky... I hate the upgrade madness this hobby encourages!

Having fun with the HP tonight - hitting 115+dB with an effortlessness and speed that is just stunning.

For example, Robin Hood isn't what most would call an impressive sub workout. However, with the HP it has some great moments - one in particular was cool where multiple horses galloping produced inaudible sound waves that moved the air - and my clothes and sectional - most impressively. Fun stuff...

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post #4627 of 9618 Old 11-15-2010, 09:48 PM
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Mark,

The HP has been great so far. A real improvement over my previous dual 12's.

That said, I have the sub placed just to the left of my primary seating position, ~4ft away, crossover set to 80hz. At times it will reveal its location, most noticeably during material with lots of automatic gunfire. I am using the MultEQ XT in my Denon 3808. Audyssey set the sub distance to 0.1ft.

After reading some of these recent posts, I decided to experiment with the distance setting. I tried a handful of different values from 0 to 24ft, but I couldn't detect much of a change. Any ideas?

Am I expecting too much coming from duals? Plus, I had my previous subs both up front...
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post #4628 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
I am using the MultEQ XT in my Denon 3808. Audyssey set the sub distance to 0.1ft.
This will probably help.
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post #4629 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
This will probably help.
I don't think that's the problem... I did the upgrade way back when it was first released and never had any issues with it. I have done a number of Audyssey runs since, on three different setup's, without any problems.

Plus, it got the distances and levels correct on all my other speakers, and even the sub level was very close.
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post #4630 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

Mark,

The HP has been great so far. A real improvement over my previous dual 12's.

That said, I have the sub placed just to the left of my primary seating position, ~4ft away, crossover set to 80hz. At times it will reveal its location, most noticeably during material with lots of automatic gunfire. I am using the MultEQ XT in my Denon 3808. Audyssey set the sub distance to 0.1ft.

After reading some of these recent posts, I decided to experiment with the distance setting. I tried a handful of different values from 0 to 24ft, but I couldn't detect much of a change. Any ideas?

Am I expecting too much coming from duals? Plus, I had my previous subs both up front...

That's going to be tough
In my experience I could never get a near field sub position (my favorite position) to disappear with only one sub unless
I lowered x-over down to 60 or so
Coming from Duals that position may be problematic for you in that regard
I have my SubMersives on both sides on my listening position and they are invisible (audio speaking)
And mine are x-over at 100 - If I disable one I become aware of location
On the other hand - Could solve problem with another Hp
Dual subs are always way to go

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post #4631 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
Mark,

The HP has been great so far. A real improvement over my previous dual 12's.

That said, I have the sub placed just to the left of my primary seating position, ~4ft away, crossover set to 80hz. At times it will reveal its location, most noticeably during material with lots of automatic gunfire. I am using the MultEQ XT in my Denon 3808. Audyssey set the sub distance to 0.1ft.

After reading some of these recent posts, I decided to experiment with the distance setting. I tried a handful of different values from 0 to 24ft, but I couldn't detect much of a change. Any ideas?

Am I expecting too much coming from duals? Plus, I had my previous subs both up front...
The is another reason you could be measuring 0.1 Ft. Distance. There could be some mechanical connection from the sub to the mic. If the mic is sitting on the seating, and the seating is vibrating from the sub output during the sub chirps, the vibration of the mic could be polluting the reading. Do you have a mic stand or a mic boom? That would de-couple the mic from any vibrations.

Craig

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post #4632 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post
That's going to be tough
In my experience I could never get a near field sub position (my favorite position) to disappear with only one sub unless
I lowered x-over down to 60 or so
Coming from Duals that position may be problematic for you in that regard
I have my SubMersives on both sides on my listening position and they are invisible (audio speaking)
And mine are x-over at 100 - If I disable one I become aware of location
On the other hand - Could solve problem with another Hp
Dual subs are always way to go
Thanks... That is very helpful info. This is my first time placing a sub nearfield.
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post #4633 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
The is another reason you could be measuring 0.1 Ft. Distance. There could be some mechanical connection from the sub to the mic. If the mic is sitting on the seating, and the seating is vibrating from the sub output during the sub chirps, the vibration of the mic could be polluting the reading. Do you have a mic stand or a mic boom? That would de-couple the mic from any vibrations.

Craig
My mic was attached to a camera tripod sitting on top of the seating. I find the sub chirps almost inaudible. Have you personally experienced what you are describing? And, is it normal for Audyssey to have the sub closer than it really is? I have heard that the opposite can be quite normal.

Ughhh.....I was hoping to avoid that massive Audyssey thread.
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post #4634 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
My mic was attached to a camera tripod sitting on top of the seating. I find the sub chirps almost inaudible. Have you personally experienced what you are describing? And, is it normal for Audyssey to have the sub closer than it really is? I have heard that the opposite can be quite normal.

Ughhh.....I was hoping to avoid that massive Audyssey thread.
We, in that massive Audyssey thread , have seen people get distances closer than actual, switch to something that isolates the mic and then achieve believable distances.

Jeff
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post #4635 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
My mic was attached to a camera tripod sitting on top of the seating. I find the sub chirps almost inaudible. Have you personally experienced what you are describing? And, is it normal for Audyssey to have the sub closer than it really is? I have heard that the opposite can be quite normal.

Ughhh.....I was hoping to avoid that massive Audyssey thread.
I had it happen when I left my tactile transducer on once during the chirps. The mechanical output of the transducer polluted the reading and I got a 0.1 Ft. Distance setting. The same thing can happen, (and has been reported to happen), with mechanical coupling of the sub to the seating. This could certainly happen with a nearfield placement of the sub. De-coupling the mic from the seating eliminates the problem.

You could also try dampening the vibrations by placing a thick blanket or a soft pillow beneath the mic tripod. It's worth a shot, but your best bet is a mic boom.

Craig

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post #4636 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 05:22 PM
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craig john/pepar,

Thanks for the tip guys. I will try and isolate the mic a little better, then run Audyssey again.
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post #4637 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
craig john/pepar,

Thanks for the tip guys. I will try and isolate the mic a little better, then run Audyssey again.
Just do one measurement and look at the sub distance. Distances and trims are set based on the first measurement and that will tell you whether you have improved your process.

Jeff
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post #4638 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Just do one measurement and look at the sub distance. Distances and trims are set based on the first measurement and that will tell you whether you have improved your process.

Jeff

No dice... I isolated the microphone using a makeshift mic boom stand and then did one set of measurements. After the calculations it's giving me 0.0ft for the sub. All the other calculations are almost identical as well. I did notice that it chirps the sub twice, almost as if it is having trouble zeroing in on it. I remember it doing that the last time too. The only part of the mic making contact with the seating is the thin connection cord. Tomorrow I will lift the cord up and repeat the process just to be sure. Any other suggestions?

Btw, the mic stand is now on the opposite side of the room, ~10ft from the sub on a concrete floor.

Sorry for the brief thread derail folks...
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post #4639 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

No dice... I isolated the microphone using a makeshift mic boom stand and then did one set of measurements. After the calculations it's giving me 0.0ft for the sub. All the other calculations are almost identical as well. I did notice that it chirps the sub twice, almost as if it is having trouble zeroing in on it. I remember it doing that the last time too. The only part of the mic making contact with the seating is the thin connection cord. Tomorrow I will lift the cord up and repeat the process just to be sure. Any other suggestions?

Btw, the mic stand is now on the opposite side of the room, ~10ft from the sub on a concrete floor.

Sorry for the brief thread derail folks...

It might be worth checking what Audyssey is setting the subwoofer channel level to after calibration? Then also try running the test again after raising the subwoofer level knob by ~6dB.

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post #4640 of 9618 Old 11-16-2010, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

It might be worth checking what Audyssey is setting the subwoofer channel level to after calibration? Then also try running the test again after raising the subwoofer level knob by ~6dB.

Audyssey set the sub channel level at -5dB. Actually, I believe all the channels are in that -4dB to -6dB range.


Edit:

Mark, what is the thought process behind raising the sub level knob by 6dB and then running the test again? Thanks.
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post #4641 of 9618 Old 11-18-2010, 01:47 PM
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Craig: Had you taken a measurement of the Center-Subwoofer combo? This is accomplished by sending the same signal to both the L & R input of your preamp with the surround mode in Dolby PLII: Cinema (not Music).

Sorry, been meaning to get back to this. Here is the graph as you suggested, (Dolby PLIIx Movie):



Guess which one is the 10.4 ft. Distance setting and which is the 13.8 ft setting.

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post #4642 of 9618 Old 11-18-2010, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by allredp View Post
Fascinating - just wondering what AVR/pre-pro's you guys have. My Onkyo 875 (used as pre-pro) only has .5 foot increments for distance IIRC. Am I missing something/somewhere I can make .2 adjustments?
mine 805's and 876's only support resolution to 6" or .5 feet. Still makes a big difference. The higher end models have finer granularity.

Sean
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post #4643 of 9618 Old 11-18-2010, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Sorry, been meaning to get back to this. Here is the graph as you suggested, (Dolby PLIIx Movie):



Guess which one is the 10.4 ft. Distance setting and which is the 13.8 ft setting.

Craig
Wow, huge difference. I need to haul the gear out tommorow and re-do mine.

Sean
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post #4644 of 9618 Old 11-18-2010, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sean_w_smith View Post

mine 805's and 876's only support resolution to 6" or .5 feet. Still makes a big difference. The higher end models have finer granularity.

Sean

Figured - well, I'll have a go at that then at least.

Can't believe Craig John's center/sub graph!!! WOW! What a shocker. Going to have to try that as well.

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Hi Craig John,

It's your good friend. Do you remember me ?
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Will there be any Christmas specials on the Submersive ? Like a $500 off the normal pricing kind of thing ? I need to add this subwoofer to my HTIB set up. I'll just disconnect the sub, add the Submersive and let the satellites with their 2" mid-range drivers handle all the good stuff. I'll set the Submersive to 200 Hz and all is groovey. Sounds like a plan.

Now I just need that discount...
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Beats being Submersive-deprived.
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post #4649 of 9618 Old 11-19-2010, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post
Will there be any Christmas specials on the Submersive ? Like a $500 off the normal pricing kind of thing ? I need to add this subwoofer to my HTIB set up. I'll just disconnect the sub, add the Submersive and let the satellites with their 2" mid-range drivers handle all the good stuff. I'll set the Submersive to 200 Hz and all is groovey. Sounds like a plan.

Now I just need that discount...
Mark is not making a fortune off these subwoofers. Just save up and get one man, you won't regret it. Don't forget you can get the cheaper finish and the SubMersives come with a 3 year warranty. You can get the original SubMersive in black for about $2100 shipped.
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post #4650 of 9618 Old 11-19-2010, 07:01 AM
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Or get the one up for sale on Audiogon.com if the finish fits.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

$ubwoofer$ and premium mango tree cultivar$

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