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post #631 of 9618 Old 01-30-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it doesn't cause me any distress. why is it that nobody seems to be able to produce any measurements for this sub? the submersive seems to have some good performance potential and obviously has some fans, but without measurements what do we have? nothing. or as mark would say, without measurements, you are just guessing. if i "surmise its potential" as you suggest, i'll just get flamed even more. what good would that be?

sometimes i wonder about some of you...
]

You ignored the rest of my post and didn't answer my question. You want to know why a Submersive is worth $2000? I don't know. Is it? Is a PB13 worth what it costs, or any other sw? What about to me or someone else? The people who own it have stated that yes, they think it is as have some others. You obviously don't. This is an unanswerable question because no one can make up you mind for you. The facts that are available have been presented. Opinions have been presented. There are no measurements like Illka's or Tom Nousaine's tests for the Submersive. So the hard data on it is limited, but enough is there if you look. So there aren't max output and THD #'s to compare with the very few sw's that have been tested this way. That's what this is all about?
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post #632 of 9618 Old 01-30-2009, 11:03 AM
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Ricci -- it might be that he wants to increase awareness of his own study of craigsub's sub results...which, not coincidentially, he appeared to bump up from oblivion this morning as well.

Let's get back on-topic about this wonderful sub.

I, myself, can't wait from the craziness that Mark will send my way in several months (hopefuly at the most).

My goal is to make milkshakes without a blender.

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post #633 of 9618 Old 01-30-2009, 11:16 AM
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I found it a while back but my search finger now broken. Can anybody post up a link for the objective info on this sub? That didnt sell me on it but it has a major WOW factor.
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post #634 of 9618 Old 01-30-2009, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLee View Post

svs ultra is underhung..

beyond that, i agree with you, the submerse is a good subwoofer.

KSC designed IcePower amplifier, two capable 15's massed balance sealed config...not taking up the entire room and 500 pounds ** cough ED).what is there not to like about it?

The Catalyst is also awesome looking, good job Mark!

beyond linesource, coaxial designs are my second favorite... and arguably more practical.

Thanks Kyle,

While the amp does use a 1000W ICEPower module, it's not a KSC model. Brian from SpeakerPower (located in So Cal) supplies me slightly modified versions of his amplifiers and has been a tremendously reliable and responsive supplier.

I the Catalyst, and long for the day when I can have a pair regularly on hand, although that's looking like that may happen sooner than later.

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post #635 of 9618 Old 01-30-2009, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i asked what makes a couple of mediocre 15" drivers and an amp worth $2k.

then, instead of simply answering my question, the personal flame wars began.

Here's the simple answer of what makes the SubMersive worth $2k:
  1. Pair of 15", 3" VC drivers optimized for this particular amplifier and box size.
  2. Solidly constructed and well braced enclosure constructed of Baltic Birch Ply.
  3. Very expensive and capable amplifier with transformer coupled input for easy means to remedy any unlikely ground loop issues.
  4. Robust packaging to insure safe delivery
  5. Careful QC & run-in of each subwoofer
  6. It's designed and supported by me directly.

That's why it costs $2k. It's worth $2k because the real-world, in-room performance which is well documented here and on my forum makes for a great subjective sound which many have experienced and reported on.

Mark Seaton
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post #636 of 9618 Old 01-30-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i am inclined to believe this. however, without measurements, how are we to know?

I and others have posted many measurements in-room including sweeps I've taken at increasing levels to show what sort of performance is observed in different size rooms. I can tell you the approximate capability of the SubMersive under ground plane conditions, but I won't be posting detailed graphs until it warms up in Chicago and I take some new measurements in a reasonably ideal location... with time to add plenty of explanation.

Unless I have many hours to spend explaining more detailed measurements or have time to post a long explanation of what is shown, I'm going to keep focusing on getting SubMersives delivered and the other product designs to a readily deliverable state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it doesn't cause me any distress. why is it that nobody seems to be able to produce any measurements for this sub? the submersive seems to have some good performance potential and obviously has some fans, but without measurements what do we have? nothing. or as mark would say, without measurements, you are just guessing. if i "surmise its potential" as you suggest, i'll just get flamed even more. what good would that be?

Detailed measurements can be very useful. As noted above, the ones I feel most understand and should be looking at are the ones posted from many real rooms of various sizes. Don't get me wrong. I've done plenty of the sort of testing you seem to be craving, and let's not forget that all of this testing grew from the Way Down Deep testing by Keith Yates. I was involved in this testing back in 2004 where you see the ContraBass measured from way back when I was still helping out there. Ed Mullen was the first to take the lead from Keith and test more subwoofers. Ilkka & the guys on AV Talk later expanded this further.

The data is very interesting, but the interpretation and understanding by the majority of enthusiasts is not as simple as some imply. With each measurement there are aspects you are and are not seeing which requires an interpretation of multiple snapshot as well as an understanding of their context to real use. While you can certainly identify a turd, once you get to higher performance levels, context of the data matters greatly, and 1-3dB tends to be close enough that other info or observations are needed which aren't generally reported before you can make any judgments of superiority. In the end you have to have the time and conditions to provide full sets of measurements such as Keith, Ilkka and AV Talk have done with all done under the same conditions. Providing "part" of this sort of data leads to gross misinterpretation and speculation, rather than the reality that you just don't have that info yet.

More measurements will be forthcoming this year, but I guarantee posting of them won't make anyone's SubMersive sound better or worse.

Mark Seaton
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post #637 of 9618 Old 01-30-2009, 06:14 PM
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You're the man Mark. Just awesome.

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post #638 of 9618 Old 01-31-2009, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

Ricci -- it might be that he wants to increase awareness of his own study of craigsub's sub results...which, not coincidentially, he appeared to bump up from oblivion this morning as well.

nah, check my motives on that one. it was contribution to the public domain...a contribution to the art. not sure who else publishes (abeit short) papers in this way.

anyways, i threw the submersive numbers (15", 5.5 box vol, 1000 power) into the best ht model in the paper:

Regression Analysis: HT versus DRV_DIAM, BOX_VOL, PWR, VNT, HI_XMAX
The regression equation is
HT = 22.7 + 1.02 DRV_DIAM + 1.24 BOX_VOL + 0.00476 PWR + 2.83 VNT
+ 7.09 HI_XMAX
Predictor Coef SE Coef T P
Constant 22.736 2.924 7.77 0.000
DRV_DIAM 1.0182 0.2340 4.35 0.000
BOX_VOL 1.2420 0.2545 4.88 0.000
PWR 0.0047566 0.0006248 7.61 0.000
VNT 2.834 1.157 2.45 0.022
HI_XMAX 7.091 1.061 6.69 0.000
S = 1.656 R-Sq = 95.7% R-Sq(adj) = 94.7%

i calculate a home theater score prediction of 49.60. that's very good. beats the hsu vt3 ho + turbo as well as fathom 112. again, on ht predicted results. ties with the velodyne dd18, which was $5k sub at testing, which is consistent with mark's reports that some have suggested his price is too low.

i look forward to seeing the actual measured results.

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post #639 of 9618 Old 01-31-2009, 11:09 PM
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I do say that it looks like an interesting mathematical eval of a partly subjective study..if nothing else, it proves a consistency.

There is no way from that study, however, you can subjectively measure a sub from a straight-on 2m outside GP if the sub fires down/sides (ie: away from the mic), has passive radiators, multiple drivers, etc.

It would require multiple measurements...from multiple sides.

How does your analysis take into account multiple drivers?

My experience is with ANOVA and STSS but that is from my college days...

John

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post #640 of 9618 Old 02-01-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

nah, check my motives on that one. it was contribution to the public domain...a contribution to the art. not sure who else publishes (abeit short) papers in this way.

anyways, i threw the submersive numbers (15", 5.5 box vol, 1000 power) into the best ht model in the paper:

Regression Analysis: HT versus DRV_DIAM, BOX_VOL, PWR, VNT, HI_XMAX
The regression equation is
HT = 22.7 + 1.02 DRV_DIAM + 1.24 BOX_VOL + 0.00476 PWR + 2.83 VNT
+ 7.09 HI_XMAX
Predictor Coef SE Coef T P
Constant 22.736 2.924 7.77 0.000
DRV_DIAM 1.0182 0.2340 4.35 0.000
BOX_VOL 1.2420 0.2545 4.88 0.000
PWR 0.0047566 0.0006248 7.61 0.000
VNT 2.834 1.157 2.45 0.022
HI_XMAX 7.091 1.061 6.69 0.000
S = 1.656 R-Sq = 95.7% R-Sq(adj) = 94.7%

i calculate a home theater score prediction of 49.60. that's very good. beats the hsu vt3 ho + turbo as well as fathom 112. again, on ht predicted results. ties with the velodyne dd18, which was $5k sub at testing, which is consistent with mark's reports that some have suggested his price is too low.

i look forward to seeing the actual measured results.

This list is based on a very limited bandwidth of 1-1/2 octaves (20-63Hz). Since the Submersive will easily extend to single digits in most rooms the bandwidth should be expanded to 3-1/4 octaves (10-100Hz), at least.

It also uses a one-room-fits-all point for evaluation. 4500 cubes does not fit that description. In fact, no room will. Since Mark suggests 1 Submersive for 3500 cubes or smaller a multiplier would need to be applied to arrive at a dollar value.

Since Mark has posted an anechoic FR and suggested that:

Quote:
A single SubMersive has no trouble outclassing a pair of MFW-15s, extending deeper while being a bit more dynamic and smoother over the entire range.

Mark has also said,
Quote:
"An Ultra13 does produce a little more output (2-4dB) around tuning."

which should result in the Submersive having a 2-4dB advantage above 40Hz and a 5-10dB advantage below 15Hz.

Other omissions in these calculations are port compression at maximum output, which will not present in the Submersive, power compression which will be less in the Submersive and THD from 20-10Hz, which will be 1/3 in the Submersive.

The necessary needed adjustments are: a) Bandwidth, b) A more accurate calculation for Sd (DRV-DIAM), c) a multiplier for room size and d) Input for Sensitivity vs PWR (since yours is a guess) which cannot be done since those numbers aren't available (although they can be guessed fairly closely based on Mark's posts).

The bottom line is that the Submersive will top the list in maximum THD limited output from 3-20Hz by a country mile (something that isn't considered at all in these calculations), it should top (or compete at the top of) the list in dynamic tracking ability from 32-100Hz (the music fundamentals bandwidth) and thus should easily compete at the top of the Subjective Music numbers.

IMO, this generally means that the Submersive is in the $1500-$3500 range in a room of 4,500 square feet, which would seem to confirm it to be the bargain all of its owners have proclaimed it to be, although using a flawed soup of very specific and very non-specific criteria that is missing some key ingredients.

Bosso
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post #641 of 9618 Old 02-01-2009, 11:56 AM
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Wow Bosso, great post. I will let the pros take it from here since I am clearly out of my league.

I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum .
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post #642 of 9618 Old 02-01-2009, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

This list is based on a very limited bandwidth of 1-1/2 octaves (20-63Hz). Since the Submersive will easily extend to single digits in most rooms the bandwidth should be expanded to 3-1/4 octaves (10-100Hz), at least.

It also uses a one-room-fits-all point for evaluation. 4500 cubes does not fit that description. In fact, no room will. Since Mark suggests 1 Submersive for 3500 cubes or smaller a multiplier would need to be applied to arrive at a dollar value.

Since Mark has posted an anechoic FR and suggested that:



Mark has also said, which should result in the Submersive having a 2-4dB advantage above 40Hz and a 5-10dB advantage below 15Hz.

Other omissions in these calculations are port compression at maximum output, which will not present in the Submersive, power compression which will be less in the Submersive and THD from 20-10Hz, which will be 1/3 in the Submersive.

The necessary needed adjustments are: a) Bandwidth, b) A more accurate calculation for Sd (DRV-DIAM), c) a multiplier for room size and d) Input for Sensitivity vs PWR (since yours is a guess) which cannot be done since those numbers aren't available (although they can be guessed fairly closely based on Mark's posts).

The bottom line is that the Submersive will top the list in maximum THD limited output from 3-20Hz by a country mile (something that isn't considered at all in these calculations), it should top (or compete at the top of) the list in dynamic tracking ability from 32-100Hz (the music fundamentals bandwidth) and thus should easily compete at the top of the Subjective Music numbers.

IMO, this generally means that the Submersive is in the $1500-$3500 range in a room of 4,500 square feet, which would seem to confirm it to be the bargain all of its owners have proclaimed it to be, although using a flawed soup of very specific and very non-specific criteria that is missing some key ingredients.

Bosso

umm...nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope, and nope. there are lots of different styles of subs tested in the craigsub ratings. after accounting for *all* those differences, a few statistical models show clearly that performance can be predicted from just a handful of variables. given the r-squared of the model of ~95%, there is only 5% remaining for *all* the other variables, including the things you mention as well as measurement errors of the tester (as well as my own errors for imprecision in calculating internal volumes, piston area, etc.). it's a shockingly good model. typically, anything upwards of 80% is considered a lock. this model, at 95%, is off the charts accurate. the data are also all public, so you can confirm the results for yourself. as for the validity of least squares regression, well, you will have to take that up with gauss.

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post #643 of 9618 Old 02-01-2009, 05:41 PM
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anyone have the pic of that theater that has 4 submersives installed ?

also, does anyone have pics of the submersive's drivers ?

thanks

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post #644 of 9618 Old 02-01-2009, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

anyone have the pic of that theater that has 4 submersives installed ?

also, does anyone have pics of the submersive's drivers ?

thanks

For the HT pics, go to post #5 of this thread, click on My HT in Art's signature, then click The Latest on the left and look at picture #8.

Randy
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post #645 of 9618 Old 02-01-2009, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

For the HT pics, go to post #5 of this thread, click on My HT in Art's signature, then click The Latest on the left and look at picture #8.

thanks!

that's one hell of a theater

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post #646 of 9618 Old 02-01-2009, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post

thanks!

that's one hell of a theater

Yes. Art has much loftier goals than just deep, clean bass.

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post #647 of 9618 Old 02-01-2009, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

umm...nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope, and nope. it's a shockingly good model.

Yeah, I'm shocked.

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post #648 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 12:26 AM
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LTD02 you must be an actuary, I've rarely seen someone so enthralled by their numbers.

Verum postulo res.
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post #649 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 08:28 AM
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LTD02,

why don't you plug the new Danley sub into your numbers? It "only" has two 8" drivers, yet will give the submersive a run for its money in some areas. Saying that the actual implementation of the design has little to do with the overall performance is just not true.
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post #650 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 08:29 AM
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back on topic... When is my shipping notice going to come Mark
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post #651 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

umm...nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope, and nope. there are lots of different styles of subs tested in the craigsub ratings. after accounting for *all* those differences, a few statistical models show clearly that performance can be predicted from just a handful of variables. given the r-squared of the model of ~95%, there is only 5% remaining for *all* the other variables, including the things you mention as well as measurement errors of the tester (as well as my own errors for imprecision in calculating internal volumes, piston area, etc.). it's a shockingly good model. typically, anything upwards of 80% is considered a lock. this model, at 95%, is off the charts accurate. the data are also all public, so you can confirm the results for yourself. as for the validity of least squares regression, well, you will have to take that up with gauss.

LTD02, I may have missed something in my lack of forum browsing the past few months, but am I reading this correctly that you have a "formula" for craig's ratings?

Craig's input, subjective impressions of his panel, and limited measurements, are a great input source, but how exactly are you arriving at a "formula"? furthermore, how on earth are you getting your rank and file from such formula?
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post #652 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 08:57 AM
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He's cooked up a formula that attempts to predict sub performance based on past history. Taking an existing set of data and trying to curve fit something to it is one thing. Attempting to claim that your curve fit of the past will accurately predict the future is quite another.
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post #653 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

He's cooked up a formula that attempts to predict sub performance based on past history. Taking an existing set of data and trying to curve fit something to it is one thing. Attempting to claim that your curve fit of the past will accurately predict the future is quite another.

and this "prediction" formula also takes into account basic variables such as Driver topology and motor technology, amplification behavior including transient response and such, and any other electronic stimulus such as Signal processing, I assume?
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post #654 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam-DiVine View Post

back on topic... When is my shipping notice going to come Mark

Much more productive topic Adam.

I was away Saturday & Sunday, but I'm expecting to ship out a 1/2 dozen SubMersives by Friday or Monday (and similar the week following). Yours will make that cut.

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post #655 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

He's cooked up a formula that attempts to predict sub performance based on past history. Taking an existing set of data and trying to curve fit something to it is one thing. Attempting to claim that your curve fit of the past will accurately predict the future is quite another.

Exactly... Fitting a formula to data only proves coincidence, not causality, which remains possible, but far from proven.

By this line of thinking I should be able to just swap change the drivers in the SubMersive to any dual 21" drivers (2x cone area) in the same size box and get a significantly improved result. If only it were that easy...

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post #656 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

By this line of thinking I should be able to just swap change the drivers in the SubMersive to any dual 21" drivers (2x cone area) in the same size box and get a significantly improved result. If only it were that easy...

Don't forget increasing the volume of the box too!
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post #657 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 12:44 PM
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I've said it before and I'll say it again.... his log regression statistical analysis ONLY proves that craigsub was consistent in his objective/subjective ratings under that ONE ENVIRONMENT in which they were measured. That is all it means.

It cannot be used under any other circumstances. Period.

Numbers can be manipulated to prove anything. We see it all the time with medical studies/experiments.

John

Loganed...finally. 6/6/08
My 3.0 HT Build Thread
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post #658 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 05:28 PM
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I think Craig has the financial ability to aquire and judge subs and has a good idea of what is good and what is not based on performance , SQ, and output. But giving them a rating never really sat well with me or obviously many other people.

The scale just isn't reliable enough to be taken seriously.....
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post #659 of 9618 Old 02-02-2009, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Thanks Kyle,

While the amp does use a 1000W ICEPower module, it's not a KSC model. Brian from SpeakerPower (located in So Cal) supplies me slightly modified versions of his amplifiers and has been a tremendously reliable and responsive supplier.

I the Catalyst, and long for the day when I can have a pair regularly on hand, although that's looking like that may happen sooner than later.


oh ok, ya i thought KSC was the only distributor for icepower now, i guess i was mistaken! either way, i would really love to hear those speakers you have. There is just something to be said about having headroom and they look like they have plenty.

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post #660 of 9618 Old 02-04-2009, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Much more productive topic Adam.

I was away Saturday & Sunday, but I'm expecting to ship out a 1/2 dozen SubMersives by Friday or Monday (and similar the week following). Yours will make that cut.


Will my sub make that cut Mark?
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