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post #9481 of 9716 Old 06-03-2014, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post

It was nice to meet Mark Seaton and Scott Wilkenson with the other Los Angeles AVS guys at THE Show, in Newport Beach yesterday.  

Mark's "let the dogs out" demo at 6 PM on saturday was an eye opener.  For years I've heard people talk about deep bass in the depth charge sceen from U571 and the pod scene from War of the Worlds.  I can't count how many times I've seen these clips at CEDIA, in dealer's showrooms, previous audio shows, and in various home theater systems. I thought they usually sounded great but nothing worth raving about. Up until now, the best I'd ever heard these clips was with Dr Hsu on dual VTF-15H's AND dual VTF-3 Mk4's at the same time in his very small demo theater at Anahiem which was fairly impressive. 

Mark's demo blew them all away! eek.gif

I'm born and raised in LA, but I can tell you the room floor, walls and ceiling shook more intensely than any earthquake I've experienced in 50 years (I seriously wondered if Mark's liability clause in his show contract was going to cover any residual structural damage discovered by the Hilton management after the show).  I've read about how really low 5Hz - 7Hz at high decibels can cause muscular contractions in your gut but never experienced that until yesterday.

Mark had the mains turned up to match the output from the subs and the sheer volume was overwealming. 2000w x 5.1 for the cats and 8000w+ for the eight 15" drivers in the subs at 90% efficiency makes 2 kilowatts output in a hotel room a bit larger than a king sized bed.  Truth be told, when I go to Arclight for the Atmos theater, sometimes they have the sound turned way above reference levels for an action adventure blockbuster and I put paper wadding in my ears to protect my hearing (went to enough rock concerts in my youth, want to preserve what hearing I have left). I thought about doing that after the first minute or so but decided to not wimp out, besides I was having too much fun!  Either way I felt lightheaded till a couple hours later.

Mark said the whole sub/amp setup was "just under $10 grand". For comparison, the MBL demo theater was in the main floor ballroom with around a million dollars in MBL extreme mains with their bass towers, multiple MBL surrounds and JL Gotham subs around the room all driven by a bevy of giant MBL mono blocks.  Granted the room size was different, but the visceral subteranian pressure and sheer dynamic range of Mark's demo was a magnitude above the MBL/JL Gotham's.  Now that's bass! tongue.gif  

With all that power, I wonder how he didn't blow a circuit breaker...
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post #9482 of 9716 Old 06-03-2014, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by duffda View Post


With all that power, I wonder how he didn't blow a circuit breaker...

 

Not really all that surprising IMO.  With a 20dB crest factor, at least, on movies it's unlikely that the system being demonstrated would draw huge amounts of power for more than fractionally short periods of time, which domestic circuits are designed to withstand. The whole thing about dedicated circuits is often based on misunderstanding IMO. Mark's demo was the proof of that.

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post #9483 of 9716 Old 06-03-2014, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not really all that surprising IMO.  With a 20dB crest factor, at least, on movies it's unlikely that the system being demonstrated would draw huge amounts of power for more than fractionally short periods of time, which domestic circuits are designed to withstand. The whole thing about dedicated circuits is often based on misunderstanding IMO. Mark's demo was the proof of that.

+1

I have everything in my theater on one circuit. That includes four amps. I have not ever tripped the breaker, but I do want to add another circuit for the future.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #9484 of 9716 Old 06-03-2014, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not really all that surprising IMO.  With a 20dB crest factor, at least, on movies it's unlikely that the system being demonstrated would draw huge amounts of power for more than fractionally short periods of time, which domestic circuits are designed to withstand. The whole thing about dedicated circuits is often based on misunderstanding IMO. Mark's demo was the proof of that.

+1

I have everything in my theater on one circuit. That includes four amps. I have not ever tripped the breaker, but I do want to add another circuit for the future.

 

Same here, although in the UK we do have 240v/13amp as standard, which helps a little.  I sometimes think that the desire to have dedicated circuits is driven by marketing or bragging rights ;)  Not in all cases of course, but sometimes.

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post #9485 of 9716 Old 06-03-2014, 08:34 AM
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Two of my amps are on a Panamax filter and I think that helps out a lot but still, I have a lot on one circuit.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #9486 of 9716 Old 06-04-2014, 07:31 AM
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I have never run into an issue either. I have my two Bryston amps which draw a lot of current plugged into my Audience power conditioner. 2x300 and 3x150. Plus I have a 1000 watt Butt Kicker amp and a 2400 watt SubMersive all on one circuit and it has all worked fine.

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post #9487 of 9716 Old 06-04-2014, 09:16 AM
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I've managed to trip my breakers with 2 XPA-1's on the same circuit so I now have each XPA-1 on its own circuit and the Submersive M+S on its own circuit. I plugged the XPA-1s into a power usage meter that captures peak draw and just one single XPA-1 driving a 4ohm 95db Focus SE hit a peak draw of 1887 watts while playing Transformers 3 at THX Reference. I guess that's why 2 on the same 120v/15A circuit tripped the breaker?


Max
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post #9488 of 9716 Old 06-04-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I've managed to trip my breakers with 2 XPA-1's on the same circuit so I now have each XPA-1 on its own circuit and the Submersive M+S on its own circuit. I plugged the XPA-1s into a power usage meter that captures peak draw and just one single XPA-1 driving a 4ohm 95db Focus SE hit a peak draw of 1887 watts while playing Transformers 3 at THX Reference. I guess that's why 2 on the same 120v/15A circuit tripped the breaker?


Max

I just got exposed to a power supply that costs 30 grand a month to run!!! My first thought was how many subs could we run off this! eek.gif

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post #9489 of 9716 Old 06-04-2014, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I've managed to trip my breakers with 2 XPA-1's on the same circuit so I now have each XPA-1 on its own circuit and the Submersive M+S on its own circuit. I plugged the XPA-1s into a power usage meter that captures peak draw and just one single XPA-1 driving a 4ohm 95db Focus SE hit a peak draw of 1887 watts while playing Transformers 3 at THX Reference. I guess that's why 2 on the same 120v/15A circuit tripped the breaker?

Max

That's a great example of how significant the technology in our HP & HP+ amplifiers really is. The 4000W capable amplifier idles at 17-19W and is as much as 94% efficient a the upper power range. This means the draw from the wall is never that much more than what is delivered to the speakers. Most class AB amplifiers and even tracking bias amplifiers are at best 30-50% efficient over their real operating range. This means you need 2-3x the power from the wall vs. what gets to the speaker or subwoofer.

Another less obvious fact is that adding a slave unit in fact REDUCES your power requirements until you get about 3dB louder than with a single SubMersive. The added power is only used when you go that last 3dB of the 6dB you can gain in doubling the subwoofers. Larger boxes and more drivers are more efficient, and if the sound is still good, you are usually only using the maximum power for dynamic peaks.

At THE Show I purposely plugged the big 8,000W amplifier into a 15A power center to reduce the chance of popping the room's 20A breaker hoping that would trip before the room's breaker if I happened to draw that much power. The relative efficiency of the SubMersive's drivers in its larger box size is a key aspect of why they are so dynamic and uncompressed. The big power is there for dynamic headroom and effortless reproduction, not constant usage. Scott Wilkinson, AVS's program director had some very nice things to say about the system in his account of a day at T.H.E. Show.

Mark Seaton
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post #9490 of 9716 Old 06-04-2014, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

That's a great example of how significant the technology in our HP & HP+ amplifiers really is. The 4000W capable amplifier idles at 17-19W and is as much as 94% efficient a the upper power range. This means the draw from the wall is never that much more than what is delivered to the speakers. Most class AB amplifiers and even tracking bias amplifiers are at best 30-50% efficient over their real operating range. This means you need 2-3x the power from the wall vs. what gets to the speaker or subwoofer.

Another less obvious fact is that adding a slave unit in fact REDUCES your power requirements until you get about 3dB louder than with a single SubMersive. The added power is only used when you go that last 3dB of the 6dB you can gain in doubling the subwoofers. Larger boxes and more drivers are more efficient, and if the sound is still good, you are usually only using the maximum power for dynamic peaks.

At THE Show I purposely plugged the big 8,000W amplifier into a 15A power center to reduce the chance of popping the room's 20A breaker hoping that would trip before the room's breaker if I happened to draw that much power. The relative efficiency of the SubMersive's drivers in its larger box size is a key aspect of why they are so dynamic and uncompressed. The big power is there for dynamic headroom and effortless reproduction, not constant usage. Scott Wilkinson, AVS's program director had some very nice things to say about the system in his account of a day at T.H.E. Show.

Not on my 240v/20amp mains breaker, but, using my 2 M/S combo's plugged into a Belkin pf60, I can trip the units breaker while playing the pod scene at reference, with the unit reading peaks in-excess of 16amp draw. This doesn't happen at -10dB.

I'm not certain on the technical numbers triggering this though as the pf60 unit's specs talk about a 1800w/15amp(120v) breaker, and we are on 240v supply. But logical discussion suggest that there is an 1800w draw from the amps and its tripping, as a unit designed for 240v/10amp lines would not be permitted to draw 3600w despite the units reading of greater than 16amps.

I am going to move subs onto the mains supply, but I dont often play at reference, and it doesn't trip on spirited music use, so, when I get to it.
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post #9491 of 9716 Old 06-05-2014, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I've managed to trip my breakers with 2 XPA-1's on the same circuit so I now have each XPA-1 on its own circuit and the Submersive M+S on its own circuit. I plugged the XPA-1s into a power usage meter that captures peak draw and just one single XPA-1 driving a 4ohm 95db Focus SE hit a peak draw of 1887 watts while playing Transformers 3 at THX Reference. I guess that's why 2 on the same 120v/15A circuit tripped the breaker?

Max

That's a great example of how significant the technology in our HP & HP+ amplifiers really is. The 4000W capable amplifier idles at 17-19W and is as much as 94% efficient a the upper power range. This means the draw from the wall is never that much more than what is delivered to the speakers. Most class AB amplifiers and even tracking bias amplifiers are at best 30-50% efficient over their real operating range. This means you need 2-3x the power from the wall vs. what gets to the speaker or subwoofer.

Another less obvious fact is that adding a slave unit in fact REDUCES your power requirements until you get about 3dB louder than with a single SubMersive. The added power is only used when you go that last 3dB of the 6dB you can gain in doubling the subwoofers. Larger boxes and more drivers are more efficient, and if the sound is still good, you are usually only using the maximum power for dynamic peaks.

At THE Show I purposely plugged the big 8,000W amplifier into a 15A power center to reduce the chance of popping the room's 20A breaker hoping that would trip before the room's breaker if I happened to draw that much power. The relative efficiency of the SubMersive's drivers in its larger box size is a key aspect of why they are so dynamic and uncompressed. The big power is there for dynamic headroom and effortless reproduction, not constant usage. Scott Wilkinson, AVS's program director had some very nice things to say about the system in his account of a day at T.H.E. Show.
Yep, I can definitely attest to the HP+ (and HP) amp's efficiency. Straight into its own 15A outlet, I haven't tripped the circuit even while playing the top bass standouts at Reference.

For anyone else who might be concerned about it, typical circuit breakers (and wiring) allow for short duration draws exceeding the circuit/outlet rating
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eaton.com%2Fecm%2Fidcplg%3FIdcService%3DGET_FILE%26allowInterrupt%3D1%26RevisionSelectionMethod%3DLatestReleased%26Rendition%3DPrimary%26%26dDocName%3DTC01200002E&ei=p76eUIijBqeRiQLY0IHQCQ&usg=AFQjCNGYVvYkvsw7MAZl5ArDLR44nAQVjA

By those charts, a 15A breaker can potentially handle a 35A draw for 20 seconds. As Mark has posted before in this thread, the HP/HP+ amps have power reserves allowing them to provide maximum power for ~20-30 seconds IIRC. It would take one heck of an extended crazy bass scene to trip a typical 15A breaker with one HP+ 4000w amp. Some guys in this thread have reported not tripping the breakers with 3-4 HP's on a single circuit, probably due in combination to the greater efficiency in hitting high SPLs with added subs as well as the breaker's short duration handling.


Max
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post #9492 of 9716 Old 06-05-2014, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1LL3M View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

That's a great example of how significant the technology in our HP & HP+ amplifiers really is. The 4000W capable amplifier idles at 17-19W and is as much as 94% efficient a the upper power range. This means the draw from the wall is never that much more than what is delivered to the speakers. Most class AB amplifiers and even tracking bias amplifiers are at best 30-50% efficient over their real operating range. This means you need 2-3x the power from the wall vs. what gets to the speaker or subwoofer.

Another less obvious fact is that adding a slave unit in fact REDUCES your power requirements until you get about 3dB louder than with a single SubMersive. The added power is only used when you go that last 3dB of the 6dB you can gain in doubling the subwoofers. Larger boxes and more drivers are more efficient, and if the sound is still good, you are usually only using the maximum power for dynamic peaks.

At THE Show I purposely plugged the big 8,000W amplifier into a 15A power center to reduce the chance of popping the room's 20A breaker hoping that would trip before the room's breaker if I happened to draw that much power. The relative efficiency of the SubMersive's drivers in its larger box size is a key aspect of why they are so dynamic and uncompressed. The big power is there for dynamic headroom and effortless reproduction, not constant usage. Scott Wilkinson, AVS's program director had some very nice things to say about the system in his account of a day at T.H.E. Show.

Not on my 240v/20amp mains breaker, but, using my 2 M/S combo's plugged into a Belkin pf60, I can trip the units breaker while playing the pod scene at reference, with the unit reading peaks in-excess of 16amp draw. This doesn't happen at -10dB.

I'm not certain on the technical numbers triggering this though as the pf60 unit's specs talk about a 1800w/15amp(120v) breaker, and we are on 240v supply. But logical discussion suggest that there is an 1800w draw from the amps and its tripping, as a unit designed for 240v/10amp lines would not be permitted to draw 3600w despite the units reading of greater than 16amps.

I am going to move subs onto the mains supply, but I dont often play at reference, and it doesn't trip on spirited music use, so, when I get to it.
As noted in my post just before this one, typical household circuit breakers can handle short term overages that are potentially quite a bit higher than their constant draw rating. A 15A circuit can typically handle 50-60A for 10 seconds, and ~35A for 20 seconds.

The breaker in the PF60 (I'm using one of those, but only for the TV, BDP, cable box etc.), on the other hand, is rated for a maximum of 15A and will trip much sooner to protect itself. You'll find it's much less likely to trip the house's circuit breakers when the amps are plugged straight into the wall.


Max
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post #9493 of 9716 Old 06-05-2014, 03:05 PM
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I regularly hit around 22 amps on a 15 amp breaker and have no problems. The lights don't dim and the it does not trip the breaker. I use two dedicated 15 amp curcuits for my HT. Two subs on each breaker along with the power amps and other stuff.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Aura Bass shakers, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
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post #9494 of 9716 Old 06-09-2014, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john


Hi Mark,

If I may, I would like to elaborate here a little bit... (OK, well, maybe more than a "little bit!" )

First, the SMS-1 is a great device for helping to optimize subwoofer placement in the room prior to any EQ or calibration. To use it for this, just turn off the speakers and play only the sub. Disable all EQ in the SMS-1 and set everything else to baseline. Then place the mic at the primary LP and move the subwoofer around room while watching the FR on the OSD. Place the sub in the spot that measures the flattest without any EQ. This will make it much easier to EQ the system later, as you will need less cuts or boost to get a perfectly flat response.

Second, when setting levels, there are 4 different level settings that need to be accounted for:

1. Master Volume Control
2. Subwoofer and Speaker Trims
3. SMS-1 Level
4. Subwoofer Level
These will all interact and they all need to be taken into account prior to doing any calibrations or EQ. To set the levels, and then EQ the system with the SMS-1, I suggest the following progression:

1. Start by setting all trims in the receiver to 0. (We'll come back later and re-set these for calibration purposes, but for now, set them to 0.)

2. Set ALL speakers to Small AND all crossover frequencies to 80 Hz.

Reasons:

The SMS-1 expects the use of Bass Management, which is what you engage when you set the speakers to Small. Therefore, to get proper results from the SMS-1, you need to set the speakers to "Small" and engage BM.

The SMS-1 can *only* EQ the subwoofer channel. It can NOT EQ the speakers. This is very important to realize. Any filters set above the crossover point will have little effect on the subwoofer output and minimal effect on the overall response. Limiting the range of the subwoofer channel by using a low crossover point, limits the range available for the SMS-1 to EQ. IOW, if you set a 60 Hz crossover, the SMS-1's EQ will only be effective to 60 Hz. Therefore, set the crossover as high as possible without localization of the subwoofer, which is almost always 80 Hz.

Page 42 of your manual, (see below), describes the Bass Management scenarios for your receiver. You can either use a "global" crossover for all "Small" speakers and the sub, or your receiver allows for different crossover frequency settings for the subwoofer and the speakers. The subwoofer crossover is really just an LPF, whereas the global crossover is an LPF and an HPF at the same frequency. IMO, you should use the same frequency for the HPF on the speakers and the LPF on the sub. Therefore, I recommend you use the global crossover setting of 80 Hz, for all speakers and the subwoofer. Also, set the "Stereo" mode to "Speakers = Small". This will engage Bass Management for 2-channel sources and make your subwoofer active for 2-channel content. This is *very* important for optimal EQ with the SMS-1, as described below.

The Phase Control on the SMS-1 is centered at 80 Hz. While it is better to use the receiver's distance setting to effect the response around the crossover point, if you do want to use the SMS-1's Phase Control, it will only be effective with an 80 Hz crossover.


3. Next, on the SMS-1, select Preset: Setup and set all EQ bands to 0. (A default reset is the easiest way to do this. See Page 41 of the SMS-1 User Manual, linked below.)

4. Set the SMS-1 Level to +15.

Reason:

This is the setting for "Unity Gain" in the SMS-1. The SMS-1 is not an amplifier. You don't want to use the SMS-1 to add gain to the signal. You want it to add or reduce the gain of various frequencies *relative* to the average level, but you don't want it to increase the overall average level. "Unity Gain" means that there is no gain across the device, and the output signal is the same level as the input signal.)


5. Set the Subwoofer Gain Level at it's lowest setting. (We'll turn it up later.)

6. Turn on the left front speaker test tone. Adjust the receiver's MVC so the left front speaker reads 75 dB* at the primary LP. This MVC setting will be the "Reference Level" setting from this point forward.** Remember it.

7. Without changing the MVC setting, shut off the left front speaker and turn on the subwoofer test tone. Turn up the gain on the subwoofer until the SPL meter at the primary LP reads 75 dB. The SMS-1 should also read an "average" level of about 75 dB. (Once you've set this, you should never need to adjust the subwoofer's gain setting again, unless you move the sub.)

8. Now, go back and calibrate all of the speakers to 75 dB at the primary LP. Use the receiver's trim controls as described on Page 43 & 44 of the manual. Once you've done this, your system is fully calibrated for levels, and all of the settings are optimized in each device.

9. Proceed with manual EQ with the SMS-1. Put the receiver into "Stereo" mode. EQ the sub in isolation, (with the speakers off or disconnected), getting it as flat as possible up to the rolloff point of the speaker/subwoofer crossover you set in the receiver.

(Remember that in Step 2 above, we set the "Stereo" output to engage Bass Management. Even though the speakers are off here, the bass from the L/R channels will still be re-directed to the sub.)

(Remember also that any slider bands set above the crossover point will be wasted, so move them all over into the range below the crossover point.)


10. Once the subwoofer is EQ'd, turn the subwoofer test tone back on and reset the level to 75 dB. However, this time use the SMS-1's level control to adjust the volume to 75 dB. This will reset the SMS-1 for exact Unity Gain.

11. Finally, turn the speakers back on and evaluate the response around crossover point. Adjust the subwoofer distance setting in the receiver to optimize the response around the crossover point.

12. Re-check the full system calibration to ensure all speakers and the sub are at 75 dB.

Once you've done the entire process above, you'll have a fully calibrated system with optimized frequency response of the subwoofer. I suggest you try to live with that system for a few days or weeks. Some people are so used to a bloated or "hot" subwoofer level that they feel the bass is "missing" with a true "calibrated" and Eq'd level. Nonetheless, once they re-acclimate themselves to "flat" bass response, they begin to hear detail and articulation in the bass that was previously overwhelmed by bass bloat and boom.

Having said that, some people just don't "like" a flat FR of the subwoofer, and they prefer a rising LF response. There is nothing wrong with that, and everyone is allowed their own preference. If you're one of those people, you have a few options. The first option is to just raise the MVC. This will raise the overall system output, but you should also get closer to the bass response you are looking for. (This also assumes that the rest of your system is up to the task. If it's not, don't try to get bass response at the expense of your speakers! )

If that is still not enough, and you want to raise the subwoofer's output above the rest of the system, I suggest you initiate the Submersive's DSP Program 2. This adds a rise in the response below about 40 Hz, with 3 dB added at about 20 Hz. This should add the feel and kick you are looking for. You can view the effect of Program 2 by watching the response on the SMS-1. It should look like a rising response above about 40 Hz.

If that's *still* not enough, the third option is to raise the SMS-1's level. This will take you above "Unity Gain" on the SMS-1, but *judicious* use of the control should not be problematic. 3 to 6 dB of level increase should be taken in stride by the Submersive.

If the above suggestions don't get you were you want to be, then the only hope for you is another Submersive or 2 or 3.

Craig

Footnotes from #6 above:
*The Rotel uses -30 dBFS for it's test tones, so the test tones should read 75 dB on the SPL meter, ("Slow" setting and C-weighting.)

**The Rotel appears to be a "relative" MVC, (it goes from 0, (Off), to positive numbers), as opposed to an "absolute" MVC, which sets Reference Level at 0, and negative level settings indicate the dB below Reference Level.

Manuals:
http://velodyne.com/pdf/sms-1/sms-1_manual_english.pdf
http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rsp1570.pdf

Att: craig john


How does this set-up work with 2 HP`s ??
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post #9495 of 9716 Old 06-10-2014, 01:22 PM
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motogp34,

Some questions:

Are you still using the Rotel? Is the SMS-1 still connected to the subwoofer output of the Rotel?

How are the SubM's hooked up? Are you running both SubM's off the SMS-1, or daisy-chaining the SubM's?

Are the SubM's Master/Slave or dual HP's?

How are the SubM's placed in the room WRT each other? WRT to the speakers? WRT the listening position?

Craig

Lombardi said it:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

motogp34,

Some questions:

Are you still using the Rotel? Is the SMS-1 still connected to the subwoofer output of the Rotel?

How are the SubM's hooked up? Are you running both SubM's off the SMS-1, or daisy-chaining the SubM's?

Are the SubM's Master/Slave or dual HP's?

How are the SubM's placed in the room WRT each other? WRT to the speakers? WRT the listening position?

Craig

Still using the rotel
sms connected to sub out in rotel
picking up other HP soon
both subs will run off sms
dual HP`s
subs placed left and right in front of seating position
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post #9497 of 9716 Old 06-11-2014, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post



Still using the rotel
sms connected to sub out in rotel
picking up other HP soon
both subs will run off sms
dual HP`s
subs placed left and right in front of seating position

If you're committed to those placements, just gain-match them and proceed as if they were one sub.

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

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post #9498 of 9716 Old 06-11-2014, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by motogp34



Still using the rotel
sms connected to sub out in rotel
picking up other HP soon
both subs will run off sms
dual HP`s
subs placed left and right in front of seating position



If you're committed to those placements, just gain-match them and proceed as if they were one sub.
you said gain match, explain ??
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post #9499 of 9716 Old 06-12-2014, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
you said gain match, explain ??
The SMS-1 only output's a single subwoofer signal. What Craig meant by gain match means set the gain knobs on each SubMersive to the same detent. The visual indicators are reasonably accurate, but if you want to be certain, just start at 0dB or -Infinity and count the detents (ie how many increments you move the dial).

With both SubMersives in the front left/right corners, I recommend sending them the same signal even if you have the option to use separate ones as I have consistently found this to produce better results.

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With all this talk about bragging rights by having more dedicated circuits and such and the efficiency of these SP amps I must chime in. It really reinforces my happiness with my dual HP 2400w Submersives. TB completely honest I have had the thoughts that I could get more 18's in my room for what these two Submersives are worth. But I always come back to the thought that these Subs are crafted and engineered by someone who really knows what they are doing. This is in no way intended to be a Mark arse kissing rant but rather an honest comment of what he has developed. I run both on a single 15 amp circuit with everything else!!! Denon 4520ci, Oppo BDP 103D, Mac mini, Open DRC mini dsp unit, PS3. Not all in use at the same time but you get the point. Now I don't listen at reference so that helps. -12ish I would say. But I do run my sub trim 4 db hot, both on PGM 2 and a mild 4 db house curve/low shelf filter via mini dsp. I have hit 109 db at 8hz on a few sweep and feared for the structure of my little rental home lol. All in all I have as much bass as I need 80-100 hz and below. I have a pretty dang good FR response and TBH I don't know how drastic more subs would make my experience worlds better. Now a different room may have different needs. Short story is you won't be seeing my babies on the classifieds. I will have them until they retire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
The SMS-1 only output's a single subwoofer signal. What Craig meant by gain match means set the gain knobs on each SubMersive to the same detent. The visual indicators are reasonably accurate, but if you want to be certain, just start at 0dB or -Infinity and count the detents (ie how many increments you move the dial).

With both SubMersives in the front left/right corners, I recommend sending them the same signal even if you have the option to use separate ones as I have consistently found this to produce better results.
Do i have to do the whole calibration again with the SMS and both subs in craig john overview ?

Last edited by motogp34; 06-14-2014 at 07:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
With all this talk about bragging rights by having more dedicated circuits and such and the efficiency of these SP amps I must chime in. It really reinforces my happiness with my dual HP 2400w Submersives. TB completely honest I have had the thoughts that I could get more 18's in my room for what these two Submersives are worth. But I always come back to the thought that these Subs are crafted and engineered by someone who really knows what they are doing. This is in no way intended to be a Mark arse kissing rant but rather an honest comment of what he has developed. I run both on a single 15 amp circuit with everything else!!! Denon 4520ci, Oppo BDP 103D, Mac mini, Open DRC mini dsp unit, PS3. Not all in use at the same time but you get the point. Now I don't listen at reference so that helps. -12ish I would say. But I do run my sub trim 4 db hot, both on PGM 2 and a mild 4 db house curve/low shelf filter via mini dsp. I have hit 109 db at 8hz on a few sweep and feared for the structure of my little rental home lol. All in all I have as much bass as I need 80-100 hz and below. I have a pretty dang good FR response and TBH I don't know how drastic more subs would make my experience worlds better. Now a different room may have different needs. Short story is you won't be seeing my babies on the classifieds. I will have them until they retire


I know exactly what you're saying.


Yes, there's incredible value in DIY'ing one or more small sealed subs. I know, I've got a quad 18" IB. However, there's significant intrinsic value in the SubM as a whole. The powerfully robust SpeakerPower amplification is second to none, all while being über efficient and very line side friendly*. To possess that kind of voltage swing/high current capability, in a fan-less onboard offering is just great. The DSP EQ'ing, countouring/limiting/protection, etc, with the alternate program to mate with different room transfer functions down low is all just the icing on the cake.


Typically, I do have multiple, up-sized dedicated circuits serving the system, voltage drop can inhibit performance in high demand situations.


*For an experiment, I've placed my entire system**, 14.8kw(without the IB), all on a single 20amp circuit, and it operates just fine at blow you away high levels, no problem. Adding the IB to the experiment, powered by a EP4000, the circuit begins to encounter some voltage drop on the big transient pulses, otherwise playback is fine.


**All active; (3)Cat12C LCRs, (4)QSC K8s surrounds/rears, (2)SubM HP
Also, a quad set of Fi, IB3-18, powered by (2)EP4000 (depending on configuration, I use either one, or both, EP4000s)

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
With all this talk about bragging rights by having more dedicated circuits and such and the efficiency of these SP amps I must chime in. It really reinforces my happiness with my dual HP 2400w Submersives. TB completely honest I have had the thoughts that I could get more 18's in my room for what these two Submersives are worth. But I always come back to the thought that these Subs are crafted and engineered by someone who really knows what they are doing. This is in no way intended to be a Mark arse kissing rant but rather an honest comment of what he has developed. I run both on a single 15 amp circuit with everything else!!! Denon 4520ci, Oppo BDP 103D, Mac mini, Open DRC mini dsp unit, PS3. Not all in use at the same time but you get the point. Now I don't listen at reference so that helps. -12ish I would say. But I do run my sub trim 4 db hot, both on PGM 2 and a mild 4 db house curve/low shelf filter via mini dsp. I have hit 109 db at 8hz on a few sweep and feared for the structure of my little rental home lol. All in all I have as much bass as I need 80-100 hz and below. I have a pretty dang good FR response and TBH I don't know how drastic more subs would make my experience worlds better. Now a different room may have different needs. Short story is you won't be seeing my babies on the classifieds. I will have them until they retire


I know exactly what you're saying.


Yes, there's incredible value in DIY'ing one or more small sealed subs. I know, I've got a quad 18" IB. However, there's significant intrinsic value in the SubM as a whole. The powerfully robust SpeakerPower amplification is second to none, all while being über efficient and very line side friendly*. To possess that kind of voltage swing/high current capability, in a fan-less onboard offering is just great. The DSP EQ'ing, countouring/limiting/protection, etc, with the alternate program to mate with different room transfer functions down low is all just the icing on the cake.


Typically, I do have multiple, up-sized dedicated circuits serving the system, voltage drop can inhibit performance in high demand situations.


*For an experiment, I've placed my entire system**, 14.8kw(without the IB), all on a single 20amp circuit, and it operates just fine at blow you away high levels, no problem. Adding the IB to the experiment, powered by a EP4000, the circuit begins to encounter some voltage drop on the big transient pulses, otherwise playback is fine.


**All active; (3)Cat12C LCRs, (4)QSC K8s surrounds/rears, (2)SubM HP
Also, a quad set of Fi, IB3-18, powered by (2)EP4000 (depending on configuration, I use either one, or both, EP4000s)
Very nice! When the home purchase comes up here in a couple years for me and my new wife a dedicated room and circuits will be in the mix for sure. I don't want dropouts as anyone would. Plus I plan on adding more subs, possibly some MBM's and upgraded main speakers. If I stay with the likes of super sensitive speakers like the 212 JTR's of 101db (some have said they measure higher) I probably won't add external amplification as I low the Denon 4520 can do just fine. Maybe a 3 channel for the fronts if anything. But for now these two submersives offer the best possible solution I can get for limited circuitry. A side note is I could run an extension cord to another circuit for one subversive if you guys thought that would up the performance? Maybe just a tiny infrasonic bump?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by craig john 

motogp34,

Some questions:

Are you still using the Rotel? Is the SMS-1 still connected to the subwoofer output of the Rotel?

How are the SubM's hooked up? Are you running both SubM's off the SMS-1, or daisy-chaining the SubM's?

Are the SubM's Master/Slave or dual HP's?

How are the SubM's placed in the room WRT each other? WRT to the speakers? WRT the listening position?

Craig


Still using the rotel
sms connected to sub out in rotel
picking up other HP soon
both subs will run off sms
dual HP`s
subs placed left and right in front of seating position
BTW, that is a cool looking room!!!

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DIY Sound Group Volt 10 surround speaker build
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My Setup Thread
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Hi guys. Been going through a problem solving process now for a few weeks regarding a hum (Sounds like magnetic interference) coming from HP+ Submersives (upgraded from 1000w amps). A bit of background. Currently running an Anthem D2v processor with a modded Oppo 95 (JLTI Mod) and an SVS ASEQ all connected through a Thor PS10 Power Centre (only one Sub is plugged into this). My amp is a Krell TAS 5 channel all channels connected with Balanced cables. The issue is since hooking up the ASEQ via a single RCA cable from Anthem (Sub Output) into ASEQ (Sub A Input) I was getting interference in 3 of my main speakers (FR,C,SL), yeah weird just those and the subs. I purchased an XLR-RCA adapter to plug into the male end of an XLR instead of using the RCA cable (still RCA on the end but using an XLR into the Anthem) for the ASEQ and it removed the interference from all 3 speakers...but it remains in the subs.

I have tried rearranging cables, purchased new XLR-RCA adapters (needed to connect into the ASEQ for both subs) locally which don't have the earth wire cut as Mark cuts his when they come with the subs and they made no difference. I recently had my system put on it's own circuit so nothing in my house will interfere with it. A suggestion was made to cut the Earth wire on the single XLR that connects to the Anthem-ASEQ only on one end to see if it removed the noise but I'm no expert but I opened the cable (JIB-Brand XLR) and saw 3 wires Red,White,Clear. I read that the Red should be + and the White - so I cut the clear believing it was the Earth. So wire was cut on the Input End (Male going into the ASEQ then connected the adapter) and when I reconnected it the noise doubled through the sub. Now the noise/interference isn't overly loud normally but I can hear it from 2m away and it's coming from both subs (one in front of room the other at rear). This noise is not present when the ASEQ is removed and the subs are connected directly into the Anthem via XLR.

I have heard that the ASEQ can introduce noise but what I wish confirmed is that this interference I'm hearing (I always get a slight hiss like an ocean breeze through the subs) is anyone else with the HP+ amps getting this or have experienced it and removed it? Anyone else with an ASEQ with using these subs? I've purcased 2 new power cords from Factory Sound here in Australia just to rule out that (yes it's a stretch) but I'm trying to remove any doubt that it's cable related. Power cables purchased here:

http://factorysound.com/products/s-pwcbpwpig1-dot-5-2

It's been a bit of a journey but if I can't find a solution I will contact my electrician and see if he can find what is causing it. He said his made XLR cables before (we discussed this when I decided to put my HT on it's own circuit) to remove the noise from my speakers but it didn't but I wanted the job done anyway. The adapter has solved the main problem with the speakers so just the sub issue remains. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. On going discussion on local HT website here:

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php/t...thread/page-21

Last edited by SimonNo10; 06-14-2014 at 04:09 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by craig john

motogp34,

Some questions:

Are you still using the Rotel? Is the SMS-1 still connected to the subwoofer output of the Rotel?

How are the SubM's hooked up? Are you running both SubM's off the SMS-1, or daisy-chaining the SubM's?

Are the SubM's Master/Slave or dual HP's?

How are the SubM's placed in the room WRT each other? WRT to the speakers? WRT the listening position?

Craig


Still using the rotel
sms connected to sub out in rotel
picking up other HP soon
both subs will run off sms
dual HP`s
subs placed left and right in front of seating position
BTW, that is a cool looking room!!!
still a few minors thinks to go
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Awesome!!!! Can't wait to get my own dedicated room! Looks like a very appealing place to hang out

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Do i have to do the whole calibration again with the SMS and both subs in craig john overview ?
When you add a 2nd SubM, you'll be adding 3 to 6 dB of output, and you'll be changing the frequency response. It would be appropriate to redo the calibration and EQ.

To gain-match the subs, when you get to Step 7, set the gains on both SubM's so the combined output is 75 dB, and the gain settings on both subs are exactly the same.

Craig

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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
Do i have to do the whole calibration again with the SMS and both subs in craig john overview ?
When you add a 2nd SubM, you'll be adding 3 to 6 dB of output, and you'll be changing the frequency response. It would be appropriate to redo the calibration and EQ.

To gain-match the subs, when you get to Step 7, set the gains on both SubM's so the combined output is 75 dB, and the gain settings on both subs are exactly the same.

Craig

Thx
Dave
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post #9510 of 9716 Old 06-16-2014, 12:13 PM
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Hello -

I'm in the final throws if deciding which sub to go far (1000 w subM or a funk 18.1)

Does anyone know if there is a max burst graph for the subM with the 1kw amp?

Thanks!

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