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post #9511 of 9535 Old 06-16-2014, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
Hello -

I'm in the final throws if deciding which sub to go far (1000 w subM or a funk 18.1)

Does anyone know if there is a max burst graph for the subM with the 1kw amp?

Thanks!
I've never seen one. The only GP measurement I've ever seen of the SubM is the one I posted in your other thread, which was done with the 1kw amp. However, as I said there, it's just a frequency response measurement and was not meant to be a max output measurement.

All other measurements I've seen are in-room measurements. GP measurements are interesting if you're trying to compare the baseline capabilities of different subs, especially if you're into the dB drag-racing we see so commonly on these fora, (i.e., "Sub X will have 3 dB more output at 20 Hz than Sub Y, but Sub Y will have 6 dB more output at 10 Hz." Repeat ad nauseum.)

But the fact of the matter is that all pales to insignificance once the sub is placed in the room. The room dominates the sound at subwoofer frequencies. A sub can be +/- 3 dB from 16 Hz to 200 Hz, 2m GP, but once you get it in a room, it can be +/- 25 dB, (that's a 50 dB spread), across the same frequency range. At that point, the question of which sub has 3 dB more output at one frequency or another is immaterial.

Nathan Funk makes great subs, by all accounts. However, I don't recall seeing a GP measurement of the 18.1 either. It's specified as:
Tuned to 18hz
+/-3db variable from 16-30hz, to 40-150hz, customizable, contact us for more information
124db maximum output at 2m ground plane
S/N ratio >113db at full rated power
http://funkaudio.ca/product/18-1-subwoofer
It's ported, so below tune, it will roll off at 24 dB/octave, (although it has an internal DSP that might roll it off faster than that for driver protection.)

The SubM is -3 dB at 16 Hz, (in DSP Pgm2), and is sealed, so it will roll -off at 12 dB/octave and take advantage of room gain at very low frequencies. I don't know the maximum output by frequency of the SubM, but I've participated in this thread virtually from it's beginning and don't ever remember anyone, in almost 10,000 posts, posting that the SubM didn't have enough output.

I expect you could buy either one of these subs and be perfectly happy. The more important consideration is how you integrate it into your system. If you're going to invest this much in a subwoofer, it is also worthwhile to invest in measurement gear and taking the time to learn how to use it. If you don't integrate the sub properly, it won't matter which sub you get... you'll never be happy with it.

Good luck.

Craig
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post #9512 of 9535 Old 06-16-2014, 07:20 PM
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You just can't go wrong with a SubM, that's a fact!! One of the best subs I have ever owned, fell in love with the first one and now have two. More ground and pound than I will ever need. And they sound fantastic too.
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post #9513 of 9535 Old 06-17-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Modicen View Post
You just can't go wrong with a SubM, that's a fact!! One of the best subs I have ever owned, fell in love with the first one and now have two. More ground and pound than I will ever need. And they sound fantastic too.
I know I've posted here shortly after getting my subwoofer upgrades, but I felt I needed to stop by and re-state it. The latest post was almost exactly what I wanted to say. I have owned some nice Axiom Subwoofers, a Paradigm Subwoofer, and heard many others. I am absolutely in love with my Submersives. I have the HP+ pair (Master/Slave), and time and time again i have run into music or movies which make me grin ear to ear. I always had bass, but not quite at the level I wanted. The Submersives are exactly what I always expected out of a theater subwoofer. It delivers the punch and rumble it promises. Just recently watched a cheesy sci-fi movie called "The Colony" and though the movie itself was average at best, it had some outstanding low frequency scenes that made me think how happy I was that I made the decision to upgrade my subs. If you are considering a subwoofer, you will not be dissapointed with a Submersive.
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post #9514 of 9535 Old 07-04-2014, 08:41 AM
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Just got my submersive hp+ slave unit yesterday! I have them placed about midway down on the left and right wall and it really made a noticeable difference in bass response of the room. Now i no longer feel like the bass is focused at the mlp but now over the entire listening area. It is wonderful. I was a bit concerned about the diff in delay being that they both receive the same same signal, but since there is only a difference of about 2ft from the mlp to each sub then i figure that's less than a 2 millisecond difference, which i do not discern in the least. Definitely made the right choice! I wonder how many milliseconds it would take before it would be noticeable. I googled it but didnt really find anything.

Anyway, i found it funny last night that i wanted to watch "Lone Survivor" when my wife started streaming her spotify (free acct - not great audio source) and i couldnt get her to turn it off because she was enjoying it so much! I was laughing inside because i found it funny (and gratifying) to see her enjoying it so much!

Both of my units are black maple, but my master sub shows a good bit more wood grain than my new Slave unit. I actually dont really see much grain at all in that unit. I confirmed that i ordered both maple (not oak) on my invoices, Mark's records, and the box labels, so i wonder if thats common/expected to some degree. Anybody else experience something similar?

Enjoy the holiday everyone! Some of the "BOOM" on my block may not be from the fireworks! 8-)

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post #9515 of 9535 Old 07-04-2014, 11:34 AM
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quick question: with a driver facing the wall, how much room from the wall does the subM need?

Check out my WAF approved living room theater....now featuring a Submersive!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1526916/my...-1-living-room
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post #9516 of 9535 Old 07-04-2014, 11:39 AM
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I think mine is about 2-3" anything about 3 is probably fine
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post #9517 of 9535 Old 07-04-2014, 02:42 PM
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Mine is 4.5" and is fine
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post #9518 of 9535 Old 07-05-2014, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdoggz View Post
Just got my submersive hp+ slave unit yesterday! I have them placed about midway down on the left and right wall and it really made a noticeable difference in bass response of the room. Now i no longer feel like the bass is focused at the mlp but now over the entire listening area. It is wonderful. I was a bit concerned about the diff in delay being that they both receive the same same signal, but since there is only a difference of about 2ft from the mlp to each sub then i figure that's less than a 2 millisecond difference, which i do not discern in the least. Definitely made the right choice! I wonder how many milliseconds it would take before it would be noticeable. I googled it but didnt really find anything.

Anyway, i found it funny last night that i wanted to watch "Lone Survivor" when my wife started streaming her spotify (free acct - not great audio source) and i couldnt get her to turn it off because she was enjoying it so much! I was laughing inside because i found it funny (and gratifying) to see her enjoying it so much!

Both of my units are black maple, but my master sub shows a good bit more wood grain than my new Slave unit. I actually dont really see much grain at all in that unit. I confirmed that i ordered both maple (not oak) on my invoices, Mark's records, and the box labels, so i wonder if thats common/expected to some degree. Anybody else experience something similar?

Enjoy the holiday everyone! Some of the "BOOM" on my block may not be from the fireworks! 8-)
Welcome to SubMersive world! A difference in distance of 2 feet from mlp is not material and will not adversely affect your SQ. I was worried too about the same thing when I switched to a master/slave combo, but Mark assured me that 3 feet or so would have no audible impact.
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post #9519 of 9535 Old 07-05-2014, 08:20 PM
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Hi everyone,

I'm a happy new owner of a F2. I've had it now for a few months. I was hoping to run REW before posting here but there have been some issues with the Mac version and I haven't been able to do that as yet. The F2 is part of my first home cinema setup, though calling it that might be a bit of a stretch in that my room is fairly small (about 1000 cubic feet) and currently my system is only a 2.1 setup. Anyway, the F2 is fantastic. While I haven't heard many subs, its hard to believe any other sub could be much better. It blends nicely with my mains and does a great job with both music and film. Probably my favorite experience so far has been watching War of the Worlds. The sub channel was set close to reference level and I'd simply never experience anything like that before. In fact I don't think I've ever been so immersed in a film before (I even started perspiring!). In particular the pod emergence scene is fantastic, everything from the initial lightning strikes, to the earth cracking open, all the way to the bridge collapse. Also loved the ray guns - simply great.

If I'm having any issues at the moment they seem to be a result of the limitations of my room rather than the sub itself. As I mentioned, the room is small. As a result the F2 is only about 4.5 feet away from the main listening position, off to the side. Occasionally I feel a gust of air and can tell it is coming from the sub - I feel the air more on the side of my body that is closer to the sub. The other issue is that I have some room rattles. While 3 of the room walls are brick, the fourth appears to be a wood frame covered in plaster board and it is from that wall that I seem to be getting rattles. At first I thought the rattles mights be coming from the sub but the sub is right next to the plaster wall and I expect its pretty unlikely to be the sub. I'm sort of having a hard time working out exactly were the rattles are coming from. Would very much welcome any ideas that might help me fix this issue. The rattling is only an issue for lower frequency content, for example, the latter part of the cord snap / frequency sweep in Oblivion, or certain music tracks.

A few random questions:
1. Does it matter if a sub is close to a wall (in my setup there is only 0.5 feet separation)?
2. I take it is perfectly normal to be able to feel vibrations on the top and sides of my sub?
3. Currently my avr has the sub level set at -4.5 dB. I remember Mark saying that this level should be below zero. Sometimes when I've bumped up the sub level I've gone above zero (so far the highest I've gone to is +2.5 dB). Do I need to adjust things so that I never go above zero? What is the reasoning for keeping the level below zero?

Thanks for any replies and great to be a Seaton sub owner. Mark, if you are reading this, I think you've done a great job with this sub and everyone who experiences it loves it.
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post #9520 of 9535 Old 07-06-2014, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Hi everyone,


A few random questions:
1. Does it matter if a sub is close to a wall (in my setup there is only 0.5 feet separation)?
2. I take it is perfectly normal to be able to feel vibrations on the top and sides of my sub?
3. Currently my avr has the sub level set at -4.5 dB. I remember Mark saying that this level should be below zero. Sometimes when I've bumped up the sub level I've gone above zero (so far the highest I've gone to is +2.5 dB). Do I need to adjust things so that I never go above zero? What is the reasoning for keeping the level below zero?

Hi - I'll step in here as I too have (dual) F2 subs in a room of similar size to yours.

1. No - it doesn't matter. Both of my subs are as close to the wall as I can get them - small rooms need all the space we can get, right?

2. No - it is not normal. From this and other things in your post, I have the feeling that you are overboosting your bass frequencies. How did you calibrate the sub? Did you use Audyssey or another automated room EQ system? Once I know the answer to that, then maybe I can help some more. But the sides and the top of the F2s don't 'vibrate' in normal use. Try this for me please - place a coin on its edge on top of your F2. Then play the pod emergence scene. What happens to the coin?

3. There is a great explanation of why your sub trim should preferably be below 0dB ijn the Audyssey FAQ, linked below.


f)3. How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ?


f)4. If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?

Read both of those FAQ answers from top to bottom and come back if you have any more questions.
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post #9521 of 9535 Old 07-07-2014, 03:30 AM
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Hi - I'll step in here as I too have (dual) F2 subs in a room of similar size to yours.

1. No - it doesn't matter. Both of my subs are as close to the wall as I can get them - small rooms need all the space we can get, right?

2. No - it is not normal. From this and other things in your post, I have the feeling that you are overboosting your bass frequencies. How did you calibrate the sub? Did you use Audyssey or another automated room EQ system? Once I know the answer to that, then maybe I can help some more. But the sides and the top of the F2s don't 'vibrate' in normal use. Try this for me please - place a coin on its edge on top of your F2. Then play the pod emergence scene. What happens to the coin?

3. There is a great explanation of why your sub trim should preferably be below 0dB ijn the Audyssey FAQ, linked below.


f)3. How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ?


f)4. If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?

Read both of those FAQ answers from top to bottom and come back if you have any more questions.
Hi, thanks for the reply.

1. Yep definitely could use a bit more room!

2. I calibrated using Audyssey XT32. If I am overboosting the sub frequencies, its not audible to me. Music sounds perfectly balanced. Its only for films that I sometimes do boost the sub. So far the most I've added is +7 dB (for War of the Worlds) but that is pretty rare and generally I just leave the sub channel as Audyssey calibrated it. I also use Dynamic EQ with a 0 offset.

I will try the coin experiment as soon as I can, hopefully in the next few days. Just a bit more info: I have a distinct recollection of playing a song that causes room rattles at -15 dB and placing my hand on the sub and it was not too hard to feel the vibrations. (The song was "Angel" by Massive Attack. It contains some very distinct, rather low bass.)

3. Thanks for the links. I read through the Audyssey FAQ prior to running Audyssey for the first time. I'll take another look.
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post #9522 of 9535 Old 07-07-2014, 04:10 AM
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Hi, thanks for the reply.

1. Yep definitely could use a bit more room!

2. I calibrated using Audyssey XT32. If I am overboosting the sub frequencies, its not audible to me. Music sounds perfectly balanced. Its only for films that I sometimes do boost the sub. So far the most I've added is +7 dB (for War of the Worlds) but that is pretty rare and generally I just leave the sub channel as Audyssey calibrated it. I also use Dynamic EQ with a 0 offset.

I will try the coin experiment as soon as I can, hopefully in the next few days. Just a bit more info: I have a distinct recollection of playing a song that causes room rattles at -15 dB and placing my hand on the sub and it was not too hard to feel the vibrations. (The song was "Angel" by Massive Attack. It contains some very distinct, rather low bass.)

3. Thanks for the links. I read through the Audyssey FAQ prior to running Audyssey for the first time. I'll take another look.
Hi again. Thanks for the answers. I have a supplementary question which I should have asked first time around, sorry. How did you arrive at the placement of your sub? In fact, where is it placed in the room? There is something amiss somewhere and I can't put my finger on it (maybe someone will chime in with some ideas?). XT32 usually gives a pretty good calibration result, although some do feel the need to boost the bass a little. But +7dB is, IMO and IME, a heck of a lot of bass boost. You are not running LFE+Main setting in the AVR are you by any chance? And what crossover setting are you using for the sub while I'm asking supplementaries?

I asked you to try the coin test because one of the things Mark is especially proud of with the SubMs is the lack of vibration through the cabinet. I can take our smallest UK coin, which is similar to your dime, and put it edge-on on top of one of my F2s and at -6dB (my usual listening level for movies) and even with a very bass-heavy track, the coin just sits there. If I place the palm of my hand hard against the top of the F2 when the pod emergence scene is playing at -6dB, I can feel something through my skin - but I wouldn't call it a 'vibration' as such. And the coin never moves. I’d be interested in what your dime does. For the record, my room is heavily treated, I use XT32 and Pro for calibration, I run in Pgm2 mode (but calibrate in Pgm1 mode) and I use DEQ with 0dB offset. I don't usually boost the bass more than Audyssey sets it to, but I do sometimes (to impress my pals, since you ask ) but even then I only boost by 2dB or 3dB at the very most. Anything else is just too much.
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post #9523 of 9535 Old 07-07-2014, 08:36 AM
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Hey guys,

I am planning to upgrade my subwoofer solution in my new dedicated theater room. I am currently using an old Elemental Designs A3-300 -- which actually has been doing yeoman's work, and doing it decently well. But I am not ready to upgrade to something more befitting the room.

My primary candidates are:

1. Rythmik FV15HP (and probably doing dual)
2. Seaton SubM HP+ (and probably adding a slave later to the system as budget (read wife) allows/need arises).

I wanted to ask some of the SubM users/fans about how they think the sub would work in my room, particualarly with regard to the placement (rear corners are the natural placement options). Below are the details (pulled from my sub advice thread) and some pics. I would love to find out from any users with similar sized rooms and rear corner placements how they liked their results.

Space: I have a dedicated home theater room that is windowless, dark and relatively tightly sealed. It is 19’ wide x 23’ long x 8’8” high. The screen wall is on the front wide wall. 15’ back from the screen wall is a 16” platform for the second row (platform is 8’ x 19’ x 16”). The platform is solidly constructed and filled with insulation, and does not resonate (at least I can’t hear it). I calculate it to be roughly 3785 cu ft of space. 3572 cu ft if you back out the space the platform takes up (I don’t know if you are supposed to do that or not).

As I thought about it during construction, I believed that the natural place for subwoofers would be along the back wall on either side of the rear row (I took pictures of the areas). So there are two coax connects (that terminate in RCA’s in the media closet) in the two back corners. The room is not sound proof – but it is resistant to sound transference. The ceiling is hung on an Auralex RC-8 channel system, all the drywall is 5/8” thick, double-layered with green glue, recessed cans have backer boxes, wall boxes have putty pads, ceiling and walls are insulated with mineral wool, door is solid core with an acoustic seal threshold. Supply and return to the HVAC system using acoustic ducting, and I have not heard any sound transfer through the HVAC. For the most part – only a small amount of sound (mostly mild hums from the bass unit) transfers to the room directly above – which is the formal living room (which no one is typically in). The room is carpeted with thick carpet and premium 10lbs pad. It is otherwise not yet acoustically treated – but I plan to do so with some DIY treatments. The left rear corner (when facing the screen), is a foundational corner of the house (the left wall and rear wall are foundation walls). The right wall is shared with the media closet, and the mechanical/storage room. Front wall is half foundation, and half shared with the rec room. I have attached pictures of the space for reference (and showing the two back corner areas for the subs).

Equipment:
Speakers: B&W Nautilus 803 (R+L), B&W CDM-CNT (Center), Definitive Technologies BPX (surrounds), Definitive Technologies BP2X (rear surrounds)
Amp: Sherbourn PA 7-350 (350w RMS x 7 channels)
Sound Processer: Onkyo TX-SR805 (using pre-amp outs). I currently use the Audyssey MutiEQ XT and cross all speakers at 80hz.
Bass Management: Velodyne SMS-1 (this is a “new to me” addition to the system). I bought it to help manage and integrate multiple and mismatched subs (at least until I upgrade my processor to something with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 and SubEQ).
Projector System: Sony VPL-HW55ES, VAPEX 120” fixed frame 1.1 gain screen.
Video Processors: DVDO Edge Green, and Darbee Darblet
Sources: DirecTV HD DVR HR-21, PS3 (blu-ray player and media streamer), PS4, Xbox 360, Toshiba HD-DVD (yes … I still have one).
Subwoofer (current): Elemental Designs A3-350. Original eD driver replaced with Infinity Reference 1260 12” 4 ohm single voice coil driver (nice sound improvement). Powered with 300 watt class D amp. Enclosure is ugly – but nicely built and braced. If you need a reminder on the specs see here: 18" W x 20" H x 20" D – port is 4” diameter.

Viewing/Listening Habits:
I am 40% TV, gaming and sports (think well shot event TV presentations … Game of Thrones, Penny Dreadful, Boardwalk Empire, Hannibal, etc.); 40% Blu Ray and HD DVD movies and concerts; and 20% music (mostly classic rock on high quality downloads, SACD and CD).

I have found after calibrating the system, using the current equipment, that most of my TV watching is at -20 to -15 db on the Onkyo’s volume knob. For movies -15db to -12db seems like it is plenty loud. Music -20 to -17 again seems plenty loud. Summary – I don’t listen at anywhere near reference levels for anything but a “hey check this out” demo of the system. NOTE: I assume because of the power of the Sherbourn amp and efficiency of the speakers, Audyssey cuts all the channels by between -8 db and -10 db, and also cuts the LFE channel by -11db. I dial up the LFE channel by +4 db to add a bit more bass back into the mix.

I put a premium on tight, quality bass, versus absolute SPL or "chest slap". Although the later is not a bad thing.

Thanks for any help you can provide
Attached Images
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HD-HT on a reasonable budget.
Proudly Purple

Selling Onkyo TX-SR805 THX Ultra2 Reciever (DC/VA/MD area)

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post #9524 of 9535 Old Yesterday, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Hi again. Thanks for the answers. I have a supplementary question which I should have asked first time around, sorry. How did you arrive at the placement of your sub? In fact, where is it placed in the room? There is something amiss somewhere and I can't put my finger on it (maybe someone will chime in with some ideas?). XT32 usually gives a pretty good calibration result, although some do feel the need to boost the bass a little. But +7dB is, IMO and IME, a heck of a lot of bass boost. You are not running LFE+Main setting in the AVR are you by any chance? And what crossover setting are you using for the sub while I'm asking supplementaries?

I asked you to try the coin test because one of the things Mark is especially proud of with the SubMs is the lack of vibration through the cabinet. I can take our smallest UK coin, which is similar to your dime, and put it edge-on on top of one of my F2s and at -6dB (my usual listening level for movies) and even with a very bass-heavy track, the coin just sits there. If I place the palm of my hand hard against the top of the F2 when the pod emergence scene is playing at -6dB, I can feel something through my skin - but I wouldn't call it a 'vibration' as such. And the coin never moves. I’d be interested in what your dime does. For the record, my room is heavily treated, I use XT32 and Pro for calibration, I run in Pgm2 mode (but calibrate in Pgm1 mode) and I use DEQ with 0dB offset. I don't usually boost the bass more than Audyssey sets it to, but I do sometimes (to impress my pals, since you ask ) but even then I only boost by 2dB or 3dB at the very most. Anything else is just too much.
Thanks again for the reply.

The sub is placed roughly mid wall. The main listening position is directly in front of the display. From that seat, if we label the display direction as North then the sub is located West-northwest. It's the only position I've tried so far but the placement options are pretty limited. I could have placed the sub in a corner but I thought it more likely that I would get a smoother response in its current position.

I agree +7 dB seems like quite a large boost. I previously tried a +4 dB boost and it was good but I felt I was still missing something. With the +7 dB boost the film was just right and by just right I mean pretty amazing Having said that I suspect that I may have a bit of a null / dip somewhere below about 40 Hz. I will have to wait till I can use REW to get a better understanding.

I'm not running LFE+Main.

Crossover is 80 Hz. (According to Audyssey, my mains roll off at 40 Hz.)

I'm not sure if it is relevant but on the back of the sub the gain is less than -24 dB. The program button is in the out position (and was that way during calibration).
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post #9525 of 9535 Old Yesterday, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Welcome to SubMersive world! A difference in distance of 2 feet from mlp is not material and will not adversely affect your SQ. I was worried too about the same thing when I switched to a master/slave combo, but Mark assured me that 3 feet or so would have no audible impact.
Thanks for the confirmation. 2 subs definitely makes a difference. I have just purchased a boom mic to perform my audyssey calibration, so maybe i will notice an even bigger improvement after re-calibrating. (I have simply been placing the mic on a platform in my seating positions and speaker stand for the others). I quickly read through the REW guide that you link to, and i am considering doing that too, but i am pretty happy with the audyssye xt32 calibration. Are you pretty confident that REW would yield a large benefit? My room isnt fully treated, but i do have some GIK bass traps in the corners and carpeted flooring (but the brick fireplace im sure causes some reflection point issues.)
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Thanks again for the reply.

The sub is placed roughly mid wall. The main listening position is directly in front of the display. From that seat, if we label the display direction as North then the sub is located West-northwest. It's the only position I've tried so far but the placement options are pretty limited. I could have placed the sub in a corner but I thought it more likely that I would get a smoother response in its current position.

I agree +7 dB seems like quite a large boost. I previously tried a +4 dB boost and it was good but I felt I was still missing something. With the +7 dB boost the film was just right and by just right I mean pretty amazing Having said that I suspect that I may have a bit of a null / dip somewhere below about 40 Hz. I will have to wait till I can use REW to get a better understanding.

I'm not running LFE+Main.

Crossover is 80 Hz. (According to Audyssey, my mains roll off at 40 Hz.)

I'm not sure if it is relevant but on the back of the sub the gain is less than -24 dB. The program button is in the out position (and was that way during calibration).
OK thanks. Nothing obvious comes to mind. I take it you don't have any independent measuring gear such as REW etc (just seen that you don't)? It would be useful to verify that you are not sitting in a null. Do you have a SPL meter? Or can you download one for your phone or tablet? If so, you could play a bass test tone and measure the SPL at various places in the room. If you are sitting in a null, you will see the SPL drop at the MLP. That could explain why you feel the need to boost the bass so much.

The gain setting on the back of the sub doesn't matter much. When you ran Audyssey, one of the first things it asks you to do is set the sub so that it reads 75dB at the MLP. Did you do that? Theoretically that should then give you a trim of 0dB after running Audyssey.

XOs are fine.

The Pgm button is set to Pgm 2 if it is in the out position. It is recommended that you start with it in the IN position (Pgm 1), so you are running an approx 3dB boost from about 40Hz down. I normally calibrate with the sub in Pgm 1 and then switch to Pgm 2 after the cal (otherwise Audyssey will just attempt to cancel out the boost). It may be worthwhile to re-run Audyssey with the SubM in Pgm 1 and have a listen, and then switch to Pgm 2 for evaluation.

I am still interested in the coin test too.
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Originally Posted by zdoggz View Post
Thanks for the confirmation. 2 subs definitely makes a difference. I have just purchased a boom mic to perform my audyssey calibration, so maybe i will notice an even bigger improvement after re-calibrating. (I have simply been placing the mic on a platform in my seating positions and speaker stand for the others). I quickly read through the REW guide that you link to, and i am considering doing that too, but i am pretty happy with the audyssye xt32 calibration. Are you pretty confident that REW would yield a large benefit? My room isnt fully treated, but i do have some GIK bass traps in the corners and carpeted flooring (but the brick fireplace im sure causes some reflection point issues.)
Hard to say if REW will benefit you or not. Usually, I’d say yes. You can’t do, for example, the sub distance tweak (see my sig) without independent measuring gear, and that usually improves on Audyssey's automated result. REW will also let you evaluate bass decay and will help you with optimising speaker and sub placement and positioning of acoustic panels for maximum effect.
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post #9528 of 9535 Old Yesterday, 08:10 PM
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Hey guys,

I am planning to upgrade my subwoofer solution in my new dedicated theater room. I am currently using an old Elemental Designs A3-300 -- which actually has been doing yeoman's work, and doing it decently well. But I am not ready to upgrade to something more befitting the room.

My primary candidates are:

1. Rythmik FV15HP (and probably doing dual)
2. Seaton SubM HP+ (and probably adding a slave later to the system as budget (read wife) allows/need arises).

I wanted to ask some of the SubM users/fans about how they think the sub would work in my room, particualarly with regard to the placement (rear corners are the natural placement options). Below are the details (pulled from my sub advice thread) and some pics. I would love to find out from any users with similar sized rooms and rear corner placements how they liked their results.

Space: I have a dedicated home theater room that is windowless, dark and relatively tightly sealed. It is 19’ wide x 23’ long x 8’8” high. The screen wall is on the front wide wall. 15’ back from the screen wall is a 16” platform for the second row (platform is 8’ x 19’ x 16”). The platform is solidly constructed and filled with insulation, and does not resonate (at least I can’t hear it). I calculate it to be roughly 3785 cu ft of space. 3572 cu ft if you back out the space the platform takes up (I don’t know if you are supposed to do that or not).

As I thought about it during construction, I believed that the natural place for subwoofers would be along the back wall on either side of the rear row (I took pictures of the areas). So there are two coax connects (that terminate in RCA’s in the media closet) in the two back corners. The room is not sound proof – but it is resistant to sound transference. The ceiling is hung on an Auralex RC-8 channel system, all the drywall is 5/8” thick, double-layered with green glue, recessed cans have backer boxes, wall boxes have putty pads, ceiling and walls are insulated with mineral wool, door is solid core with an acoustic seal threshold. Supply and return to the HVAC system using acoustic ducting, and I have not heard any sound transfer through the HVAC. For the most part – only a small amount of sound (mostly mild hums from the bass unit) transfers to the room directly above – which is the formal living room (which no one is typically in). The room is carpeted with thick carpet and premium 10lbs pad. It is otherwise not yet acoustically treated – but I plan to do so with some DIY treatments. The left rear corner (when facing the screen), is a foundational corner of the house (the left wall and rear wall are foundation walls). The right wall is shared with the media closet, and the mechanical/storage room. Front wall is half foundation, and half shared with the rec room. I have attached pictures of the space for reference (and showing the two back corner areas for the subs).

Equipment:
Speakers: B&W Nautilus 803 (R+L), B&W CDM-CNT (Center), Definitive Technologies BPX (surrounds), Definitive Technologies BP2X (rear surrounds)
Amp: Sherbourn PA 7-350 (350w RMS x 7 channels)
Sound Processer: Onkyo TX-SR805 (using pre-amp outs). I currently use the Audyssey MutiEQ XT and cross all speakers at 80hz.
Bass Management: Velodyne SMS-1 (this is a “new to me” addition to the system). I bought it to help manage and integrate multiple and mismatched subs (at least until I upgrade my processor to something with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 and SubEQ).
Projector System: Sony VPL-HW55ES, VAPEX 120” fixed frame 1.1 gain screen.
Video Processors: DVDO Edge Green, and Darbee Darblet
Sources: DirecTV HD DVR HR-21, PS3 (blu-ray player and media streamer), PS4, Xbox 360, Toshiba HD-DVD (yes … I still have one).
Subwoofer (current): Elemental Designs A3-350. Original eD driver replaced with Infinity Reference 1260 12” 4 ohm single voice coil driver (nice sound improvement). Powered with 300 watt class D amp. Enclosure is ugly – but nicely built and braced. If you need a reminder on the specs see here: 18" W x 20" H x 20" D – port is 4” diameter.

Viewing/Listening Habits:
I am 40% TV, gaming and sports (think well shot event TV presentations … Game of Thrones, Penny Dreadful, Boardwalk Empire, Hannibal, etc.); 40% Blu Ray and HD DVD movies and concerts; and 20% music (mostly classic rock on high quality downloads, SACD and CD).

I have found after calibrating the system, using the current equipment, that most of my TV watching is at -20 to -15 db on the Onkyo’s volume knob. For movies -15db to -12db seems like it is plenty loud. Music -20 to -17 again seems plenty loud. Summary – I don’t listen at anywhere near reference levels for anything but a “hey check this out” demo of the system. NOTE: I assume because of the power of the Sherbourn amp and efficiency of the speakers, Audyssey cuts all the channels by between -8 db and -10 db, and also cuts the LFE channel by -11db. I dial up the LFE channel by +4 db to add a bit more bass back into the mix.

I put a premium on tight, quality bass, versus absolute SPL or "chest slap". Although the later is not a bad thing.

Thanks for any help you can provide
Well I am sure you may have heard the rule of "buy best even if it takes more time or one sub at a time." I am fully satisfied with my dual HP SubM's. I have volume levels nearly identical to you with movies and music. I run bass pretty hot on music (6db low shelf via mini dsp, but doesn't add tons for music. then sub trim +12 for music and +5 for movies) May seem extreme to some but remember music is plenty loud at -16 and movies about same. I was playing some music last night (-16 in Stereo preset) and sub trim on +4db, Audyssey sets it at -8.5db, and the kick drum was just plain BEAUTIFUL! Not muddy at all, just fast, precise yet deep and POWERFUL!

I did a couple DIY surround speakers and have thought I want to do some subs. But I just don't need any more lol! Unless I move to a bigger or different room. The effects in movies are just ridiculous! Everyone loves the crazy bass scenes for obvious reasons but TBO I love the subtle effects. Impacts of big foot steps, slashing of planes or race cars, guns shots, and heavy punches. Lesser subs (TBO not tons of experience, I owned HSU VTF 15H prior) seem to not have the depth of impact of the heavy scenes, the subtle scenes, and kick drums if that makes sense. Anyway, there is a noobs response

Also seems like you would get nice room gain.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
OK thanks. Nothing obvious comes to mind. I take it you don't have any independent measuring gear such as REW etc (just seen that you don't)? It would be useful to verify that you are not sitting in a null. Do you have a SPL meter? Or can you download one for your phone or tablet? If so, you could play a bass test tone and measure the SPL at various places in the room. If you are sitting in a null, you will see the SPL drop at the MLP. That could explain why you feel the need to boost the bass so much.

The gain setting on the back of the sub doesn't matter much. When you ran Audyssey, one of the first things it asks you to do is set the sub so that it reads 75dB at the MLP. Did you do that? Theoretically that should then give you a trim of 0dB after running Audyssey.

XOs are fine.

The Pgm button is set to Pgm 2 if it is in the out position. It is recommended that you start with it in the IN position (Pgm 1), so you are running an approx 3dB boost from about 40Hz down. I normally calibrate with the sub in Pgm 1 and then switch to Pgm 2 after the cal (otherwise Audyssey will just attempt to cancel out the boost). It may be worthwhile to re-run Audyssey with the SubM in Pgm 1 and have a listen, and then switch to Pgm 2 for evaluation.

I am still interested in the coin test too.
Thanks again. I finally got a chance to do the coin experiment - sorry for the delay. The coins fell down. I started playing War of the Worlds from the lightning strikes - the lightning strikes were enough to cause the coins to fall.

Some more details: volume was at -15 dB (my "just right" setting is to use -10dB, ie, I would normally play the film louder) with the sub +7 dB hot and DEQ on (offset of 0 dB). I tried a few different sized coins but they all fell down. One of the coins was an Australian $2 coin which has roughly the same diameter as a dime though its roughly 50% wider. Due to the greater width I'd expect it be more stable than a dime.

I'm not sure what to make of these results. What is the most that Audyssey will boost a particular frequency? Have others tried this coin experiment?

Regarding taking some measurements, I'm really keen to do so. Hopefully the Mac version of REW is sorted out shortly. I don't have any of the other things you mentioned that could be used to take some SPL measurements. In a seat next to the main listening position, the bass is certainly louder at some frequencies but I haven't spent enough time listening in that position to determine if overall it sounds better. The seat is pretty close to one of the room corners - corners tend to have boosted bass don't they?

Regarding Audyssey calibration, yes I followed Audyssey's instructions and first adjusted the gain on the back of the sub to its liking. (This resulted in the sub gain in my avr being set to -4.5 dB.)

I will definitely experiment with Pgm 1 and 2 - I had hoped to do so already but have been waiting on REW.
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Thanks again. I finally got a chance to do the coin experiment - sorry for the delay. The coins fell down. I started playing War of the Worlds from the lightning strikes - the lightning strikes were enough to cause the coins to fall.

Some more details: volume was at -15 dB (my "just right" setting is to use -10dB, ie, I would normally play the film louder) with the sub +7 dB hot and DEQ on (offset of 0 dB). I tried a few different sized coins but they all fell down. One of the coins was an Australian $2 coin which has roughly the same diameter as a dime though its roughly 50% wider. Due to the greater width I'd expect it be more stable than a dime.

I'm not sure what to make of these results. What is the most that Audyssey will boost a particular frequency? Have others tried this coin experiment?

Regarding taking some measurements, I'm really keen to do so. Hopefully the Mac version of REW is sorted out shortly. I don't have any of the other things you mentioned that could be used to take some SPL measurements. In a seat next to the main listening position, the bass is certainly louder at some frequencies but I haven't spent enough time listening in that position to determine if overall it sounds better. The seat is pretty close to one of the room corners - corners tend to have boosted bass don't they?

Regarding Audyssey calibration, yes I followed Audyssey's instructions and first adjusted the gain on the back of the sub to its liking. (This resulted in the sub gain in my avr being set to -4.5 dB.)

I will definitely experiment with Pgm 1 and 2 - I had hoped to do so already but have been waiting on REW.
Thanks for the additional info. I am surprised nobody else has chimed in on this interesting discussion.

I am a bit disturbed by your coin experiment results. Tonight I will wind up my bass by 5dB and see what happens here to the coin. My view is that if you are shaking the SubMersive cabinet, then you have excess bass, but I realise that this doesn't jibe well with your listening experience. It is still possible that you may be sitting in a null - can you get hold of a SPL or a SPL smartphone app and measure the bass SPL in the MLP and elsewhere?

Audyssey applies a maximum boost of 9dB IIRC.
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The F2 cab is not inert, unlike the dual opposed SubM design that is self cancelling, so "the coin trick" has no bearing. Some vibration can be expected on the dual forward firing F2, though excesive vibration may be a result of a cab failure

Audessey Cal should leave you with an AVR trim of +/-3.5dB if it doesn't, adjust the sub gain dial up or down until it does. Realistically you should get within 75dB +/-1.5dB before running. Then after running you can switch to PGM2 if desired and/or turn up sub gain/trim if you like you bass a little hot.

Follow the Audessey setup (mic positions) for best results
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post #9532 of 9535 Old Today, 06:51 AM
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The F2 cab is not inert, unlike the dual opposed SubM design that is self cancelling, so "the coin trick" has no bearing. Some vibration can be expected on the dual forward firing F2, though excesive vibration may be a result of a cab failure

Audessey Cal should leave you with an AVR trim of +/-3.5dB if it doesn't, adjust the sub gain dial up or down until it does. Realistically you should get within 75dB +/-1.5dB before running. Then after running you can switch to PGM2 if desired and/or turn up sub gain/trim if you like you bass a little hot.

Follow the Audessey setup (mic positions) for best results
It's true that the dual opposed design of the HP is going to less prone to cabinet vibration than the F2. But the fact remains I have reference bass here and the cabinet of my F2s does not vibrate all over the place. Does your F2 work with the coin trick?

There's no strict requirement for an Audyssey calibration to end up with a trim of ±3.5dB but it is a good recommendation.

There are very good reasons not to use the 75dB recommendation made by Audyssey at the beginning of the cal.

The Audyssey FAQ deals with both cases here:

f)4. If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Well I am sure you may have heard the rule of "buy best even if it takes more time or one sub at a time." I am fully satisfied with my dual HP SubM's. I have volume levels nearly identical to you with movies and music. I run bass pretty hot on music (6db low shelf via mini dsp, but doesn't add tons for music. then sub trim +12 for music and +5 for movies) May seem extreme to some but remember music is plenty loud at -16 and movies about same. I was playing some music last night (-16 in Stereo preset) and sub trim on +4db, Audyssey sets it at -8.5db, and the kick drum was just plain BEAUTIFUL! Not muddy at all, just fast, precise yet deep and POWERFUL!

I did a couple DIY surround speakers and have thought I want to do some subs. But I just don't need any more lol! Unless I move to a bigger or different room. The effects in movies are just ridiculous! Everyone loves the crazy bass scenes for obvious reasons but TBO I love the subtle effects. Impacts of big foot steps, slashing of planes or race cars, guns shots, and heavy punches. Lesser subs (TBO not tons of experience, I owned HSU VTF 15H prior) seem to not have the depth of impact of the heavy scenes, the subtle scenes, and kick drums if that makes sense. Anyway, there is a noobs response

Also seems like you would get nice room gain.
Thanks for the input -- really appreciate it.

Now I just need to get a hold of Mark.

HD-HT on a reasonable budget.
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Selling Onkyo TX-SR805 THX Ultra2 Reciever (DC/VA/MD area)
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It's true that the dual opposed design of the HP is going to less prone to cabinet vibration than the F2. But the fact remains I have reference bass here and the cabinet of my F2s does not vibrate all over the place. Does your F2 work with the coin trick?

There's no strict requirement for an Audyssey calibration to end up with a trim of ±3.5dB but it is a good recommendation.

There are very good reasons not to use the 75dB recommendation made by Audyssey at the beginning of the cal.

The Audyssey FAQ deals with both cases here:

f)4. If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?
I have read that. And I do run my 4 subs (2xM/S) a little hot.

But I prefer to keep my trims as set (Audyssey sets mine with a SubEQ to 0) and after engage pgm2 and dial the gain 1 click, that then gives me my personal bass preference for my room.

I haven't tried the coin trick on the F2s but I have felt the vibrations and they are there (1 of my cabs is awaiting replacement as it has "shaken itself apart") unlike my dual opposed SubMs that I used to own and did try the water test on. The F2 vibrations could make a smaller coin fall I would think, and while braced extremely well, they are just not a inert design.
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(1 of my cabs is awaiting replacement as it has "shaken itself apart") unlike my dual opposed SubMs that I used to own and did try the water test on. .
That is interesting. I wonder then if the OP has a cabinet issue? I certainly get nothing like what I would call 'vibration' through either of my F2s. Last night I watched Iron Man again (I am having a Marvel Comic Universe week ) and when the cave exit scene came on, I made a point of putting my hand on the top and side of one of my F2s. I could feel something through my palm but I wouldn't call it 'vibration' in the sense we are discussing it here. I didn't try the coin thing though - the disc is still in my player so I will try that tonight using the same cave exit scene, before moving on to the next in the series.
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