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post #9541 of 9559 Old 07-10-2014, 07:12 PM
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Going absolutely brain dead. PGM 2 is with the button pushed in or left out?
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post #9542 of 9559 Old 07-10-2014, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Going absolutely brain dead. PGM 2 is with the button pushed in or left out?
Out

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post #9543 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Maybe we are using different meanings of 'vibration' here. I too can feel something through my palm when I lay it on top of my F2s and when really loud, really deep bass is playing. I'm not sure I'd call this 'vibration' in the sense that the cabinet itself is, well, 'vibrating'. Maybe we are experiencing the same thing but calling it something different?
It's quite possible I suspect.

Would be great if more F2 owners tried the coin experiment.

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Not sure what you mean by "I possibly could have achieved a gain closer to 0 if I allowed the avr to have a positive gain". Do you mean the gain on the sub itself in the first mention of 'gain'? If so, as I say, it's not relevant anyway.
During Audyssey calibrations I could have chosen to reduce the F2 gain by turning the F2 gain knob one more click. Audyssey would then have compensated by increasing the sub gain in the avr. The resulting avr sub gain would then have been closer to 0 in absolute terms but would have been positive rather than negative.


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Originally Posted by K1LL3M View Post
I doubt the OP has a cabinet problem, more likely a null as you suggested
Rather than taking up people's time with this its probably best to wait until I can get REW going and see what's what.

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Originally Posted by K1LL3M View Post
The cabinets more than tough enough not to "flex" and the drivers cancel any vibrations out. Google the it, coins glasses of water, still as.

As to the sub trim, thats what mine is on, and thats hot, though my trim is 0. The -4.5dB trim isnt bad. The question I have is if you turn it down 1 more click, whats the trim go up to. Not that it matters.
See my answer above (I can't remember the exact value).

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I thought you were boosting you sub by 6-8dB though?
I did the boost the sub for War of the Worlds by +7 dB but I don't generally boost the sub by anything near that. For example, I didn't end up adding any boost to Oblivion. When I did try boosting the bass in Oblivion I found it just stood out too much. Having said that I was expecting the cable snap to be quite a bit more impactful than it was.




While I'm waiting for REW, is there anything I can try that might help with the rattles I'm hearing? As mentioned in my original post, it's really hard to work out what do about them - I suppose they're coming from the wall but I don't know what can be done. Would really like to hear some suggestions if people have them.
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post #9544 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 02:59 AM
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During Audyssey calibrations I could have chosen to reduce the F2 gain by turning the F2 gain knob one more click. Audyssey would then have compensated by increasing the sub gain in the avr. The resulting avr sub gain would then have been closer to 0 in absolute terms but would have been positive rather than negative.
OK - gotcha. I always set up so that the initial Audyssey level reading is quite a bit higher than 75dB. This then means that Audyssey trims the bass down quite a lot, which leaves me headroom to boost it if I want to, while still remaining in negative trim territory.

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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
While I'm waiting for REW, is there anything I can try that might help with the rattles I'm hearing? As mentioned in my original post, it's really hard to work out what do about them - I suppose they're coming from the wall but I don't know what can be done. Would really like to hear some suggestions if people have them.
Chasing down room resonances is really hard sometimes. I play a bass test tone, on repeat, quite loud and then go hunting. It's easy to fix rattling furniture or things on tables and so on. Even light fittings. The test tone will find them all. I use different frequencies too because some things resonate at different frequencies. Mine is a dedicated room so it doesn't have very much in it that isn't essential - eg no ornaments and so on. What is hard, or even impossible, is to track down resonances inside the walls. This can happen - there can be wires or debris left in there by builders and so on. In my case I have one resonance that so far I haven’t dealt with. It is caused by two central heating pipes which take the hot water to the upstairs floor of the house. At a certain frequency they vibrate. The only way to deal with it is to rip open the wall and fix the pipes down better but so far I haven't done this. It happens at just one very low frequency which doesn't seem to be in most movies, or not loud enough to cause the problem, so I am just living with it. The only time I really notice it is when the bass, at the right frequency, goes on for a long time - for example in the cave exit scene in Iron Man. Always something else to do with this hobby...
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post #9545 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 03:00 AM
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post #9546 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 06:59 AM
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Hello all ... so I pulled the trigger on a Seaton SubM HP+ and Slave combo.

Looking forward to hearing these in my room!

CT
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post #9547 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 11:06 AM
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For the experienced SubM'ers, in antcicipation of the arrival of my SubM HP+ and slave, I wanted to get an understanding of the appropriate setup for everything. Here is my equipment:

Equipment: Speakers: B&W Nautilus 803 (R+L), B&W CDM-CNT (Center), Definitive Technologies BPX (surrounds), Definitive Technologies BP2X (rear surrounds)
Amp: Sherbourn PA 7-350 (350w RMS x 7 channels)
Sound Processer: Onkyo TX-SR805 (using pre-amp outs). I currently use the Audyssey MutiEQ XT and cross all speakers at 80hz.
Bass Management: Velodyne SMS-1 (this is a “new to me” addition to the system). I bought it to help manage and better integrate my subs (at least until I upgrade my processor to something with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 and SubEQ).
Projector System: Sony VPL-HW55ES, VAPEX 120” fixed frame 1.1 gain screen.
Video Processors: DVDO Edge Green, and Darbee Darblet

Here is the process that I gleaned from some other posts in this thread (and the Audyssey thread).

  1. Hook up SubM's and set volume on amp to -13db ish (between Mark's recommended -10 and -16db)
  2. Disable existing Audyssey setup on Onkyo and return all channel trims to 0db (??? --- or perhaps some other number).
  3. Level match front L/R and Subs at 75 to 80 db from the MLP. I have a Radio Shack digital SPL meter for this.
  4. Run my Velodyne SMS-1 (using Volume @ 15 on the SMS-1) to get sub as flat as possible.
  5. Run my Onkyo's Audyssey MultiEQ XT. (If XT cuts LFE by more than -12db pull back the trim on the plate amp - and then run again till less than -12 db right?)
  6. So far everything has been in PGM1 -- now I set to PGM2 and power-cycle the SubM amp.
  7. Crack a beer and fire up Gravity
Sound about right? Any feedback would be very much appreciated.


I know I should upgrade to a receiver with XT32 -- but the 805 is working great right now, and I plan to make the switch to an XT32-enabled unit once 4K HDMI, HDCP and Atmos are more settled.



Thanks!! I am really excited to get the SubMs.



CT

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post #9548 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
For the experienced SubM'ers, in antcicipation of the arrival of my SubM HP+ and slave, I wanted to get an understanding of the appropriate setup for everything. Here is my equipment:

Equipment: Speakers: B&W Nautilus 803 (R+L), B&W CDM-CNT (Center), Definitive Technologies BPX (surrounds), Definitive Technologies BP2X (rear surrounds)
Amp: Sherbourn PA 7-350 (350w RMS x 7 channels)
Sound Processer: Onkyo TX-SR805 (using pre-amp outs). I currently use the Audyssey MutiEQ XT and cross all speakers at 80hz.
Bass Management: Velodyne SMS-1 (this is a “new to me” addition to the system). I bought it to help manage and better integrate my subs (at least until I upgrade my processor to something with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 and SubEQ).
Projector System: Sony VPL-HW55ES, VAPEX 120” fixed frame 1.1 gain screen.
Video Processors: DVDO Edge Green, and Darbee Darblet

Here is the process that I gleaned from some other posts in this thread (and the Audyssey thread).

  1. Hook up SubM's and set volume on amp to -13db ish (between Mark's recommended -10 and -16db)
  2. Disable existing Audyssey setup on Onkyo and return all channel trims to 0db (??? --- or perhaps some other number).
  3. Level match front L/R and Subs at 75 to 80 db from the MLP. I have a Radio Shack digital SPL meter for this.
  4. Run my Velodyne SMS-1 (using Volume @ 15 on the SMS-1) to get sub as flat as possible.
  5. Run my Onkyo's Audyssey MultiEQ XT. (If XT cuts LFE by more than -12db pull back the trim on the plate amp - and then run again till less than -12 db right?)
  6. So far everything has been in PGM1 -- now I set to PGM2 and power-cycle the SubM amp.
  7. Crack a beer and fire up Gravity
Sound about right? Any feedback would be very much appreciated.


I know I should upgrade to a receiver with XT32 -- but the 805 is working great right now, and I plan to make the switch to an XT32-enabled unit once 4K HDMI, HDCP and Atmos are more settled.



Thanks!! I am really excited to get the SubMs.



CT
There are some useful Qs in the Audyssey FAQ that might help you:

b)6. Does it matter how I set the controls on my AVR when running Audyssey?

f)3. How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ?

f)9. What's the best way to set up Audyssey when also using Velodyne's SMS-1 room EQ system?


f)4. If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?

f)8. How does Audyssey handle complex multiple subwoofer setups?

That should keep you busy for a while
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post #9549 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
There are some useful Qs in the Audyssey FAQ that might help you:



f)9. What's the best way to set up Audyssey when also using Velodyne's SMS-1 room EQ system?



That should keep you busy for a while
I feel a bit silly now -- but thank you.

So it seems that I should run Audyssey first then make any adjustments with the SMS-1.

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post #9550 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Yep. And, of course, it requires a power off/on cycle before it takes effect.
Yea I am very familiar with the process as I have done tons of measuring and my EQ process. The good ol, Measure raw, implement mini dsp cuts, measure again, then run Audyssey and measure again, then implement PGM 2 and measure again. I have done this countless times as changes have occurred as I pieced my current system together over this last year. But last night I stopped and genuinely forgot if PGM 2 was out or in!!!! I ran XT32 with them out!!! UGHGHGHH!!! Well my wife doesn't get home until 745 tonight so...
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I feel a bit silly now -- but thank you.
You’re welcome. No reason to feel silly IMO.

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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
So it seems that I should run Audyssey first then make any adjustments with the SMS-1.
Just follow the FAQ - the SMS info was from a very experienced member who has first hand knowledge and experience.

If you run SMS first, Audyssey will just try to 'undo' what it has done as it attempts to hit the Audyssey target curve.
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post #9552 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 01:35 PM
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Yea I am very familiar with the process as I have done tons of measuring and my EQ process. The good ol, Measure raw, implement mini dsp cuts, measure again, then run Audyssey and measure again, then implement PGM 2 and measure again. I have done this countless times as changes have occurred as I pieced my current system together over this last year. But last night I stopped and genuinely forgot if PGM 2 was out or in!!!! I ran XT32 with them out!!! UGHGHGHH!!! Well my wife doesn't get home until 745 tonight so...
Funnily enough, I did the same last week. It's been a while since I needed to recalibrate (just moved my surrounds to 110 degrees to get ready for Atmos) and I had to look up which Pgm was which, in or out.
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post #9553 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
For the experienced SubM'ers, in antcicipation of the arrival of my SubM HP+ and slave, I wanted to get an understanding of the appropriate setup for everything. Here is my equipment:

Equipment: Speakers: B&W Nautilus 803 (R+L), B&W CDM-CNT (Center), Definitive Technologies BPX (surrounds), Definitive Technologies BP2X (rear surrounds)
Amp: Sherbourn PA 7-350 (350w RMS x 7 channels)
Sound Processer: Onkyo TX-SR805 (using pre-amp outs). I currently use the Audyssey MutiEQ XT and cross all speakers at 80hz.
Bass Management: Velodyne SMS-1 (this is a “new to me” addition to the system). I bought it to help manage and better integrate my subs (at least until I upgrade my processor to something with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 and SubEQ).
Projector System: Sony VPL-HW55ES, VAPEX 120” fixed frame 1.1 gain screen.
Video Processors: DVDO Edge Green, and Darbee Darblet

Here is the process that I gleaned from some other posts in this thread (and the Audyssey thread).

  1. Hook up SubM's and set volume on amp to -13db ish (between Mark's recommended -10 and -16db)
  2. Disable existing Audyssey setup on Onkyo and return all channel trims to 0db (??? --- or perhaps some other number).
  3. Level match front L/R and Subs at 75 to 80 db from the MLP. I have a Radio Shack digital SPL meter for this.
  4. Run my Velodyne SMS-1 (using Volume @ 15 on the SMS-1) to get sub as flat as possible.
  5. Run my Onkyo's Audyssey MultiEQ XT. (If XT cuts LFE by more than -12db pull back the trim on the plate amp - and then run again till less than -12 db right?)
  6. So far everything has been in PGM1 -- now I set to PGM2 and power-cycle the SubM amp.
  7. Crack a beer and fire up Gravity
Sound about right? Any feedback would be very much appreciated.


I know I should upgrade to a receiver with XT32 -- but the 805 is working great right now, and I plan to make the switch to an XT32-enabled unit once 4K HDMI, HDCP and Atmos are more settled.



Thanks!! I am really excited to get the SubMs.



CT
I don't suggest you follow the above process. Here's post I made from a number of years ago about the SMS-1 and Audyssey XT32. Your process will be different because you're using a Master/Slave, which means you only set the levels from the Master. There is no separate level or distance setting for your Slave. The first step is also important for finding the best placements for your subs.


Quote:
First, the SMS-1 is a great device for helping to optimize subwoofer placement in the room prior to any EQ or calibration. To use it for this, just turn off the speakers and play only the sub. Disable all EQ in the SMS-1 and set everything else to baseline. Then place the mic at the primary LP and move the subwoofer around room while watching the FR on the OSD. Place the sub in the spot that measures the flattest without any EQ. This will make it much easier to EQ the system later, as you will need less cuts or boost to get a perfectly flat response.

Second, when setting levels, there are 4 different level settings that need to be accounted for:

1. Master Volume Control
2. Subwoofer and Speaker Trims
3. SMS-1 Level
4. Subwoofer Level
These will all interact and they all need to be taken into account prior to doing any calibrations or EQ. To set the levels, and then EQ the system with the SMS-1, I suggest the following progression:

1. Start by setting all trims in the receiver to 0. (We'll come back later and re-set these for calibration purposes, but for now, set them to 0.)

2. Set ALL speakers to Small AND all crossover frequencies to 80 Hz.

Reasons:

The SMS-1 expects the use of Bass Management, which is what you engage when you set the speakers to Small. Therefore, to get proper results from the SMS-1, you need to set the speakers to "Small" and engage BM.

The SMS-1 can *only* EQ the subwoofer channel. It can NOT EQ the speakers. This is very important to realize. Any filters set above the crossover point will have little effect on the subwoofer output and minimal effect on the overall response. Limiting the range of the subwoofer channel by using a low crossover point, limits the range available for the SMS-1 to EQ. IOW, if you set a 60 Hz crossover, the SMS-1's EQ will only be effective to 60 Hz. Therefore, set the crossover as high as possible without localization of the subwoofer, which is almost always 80 Hz.

Page 42 of your manual, (see below), describes the Bass Management scenarios for your receiver. You can either use a "global" crossover for all "Small" speakers and the sub, or your receiver allows for different crossover frequency settings for the subwoofer and the speakers. The subwoofer crossover is really just an LPF, whereas the global crossover is an LPF and an HPF at the same frequency. IMO, you should use the same frequency for the HPF on the speakers and the LPF on the sub. Therefore, I recommend you use the global crossover setting of 80 Hz, for all speakers and the subwoofer. Also, set the "Stereo" mode to "Speakers = Small". This will engage Bass Management for 2-channel sources and make your subwoofer active for 2-channel content. This is *very* important for optimal EQ with the SMS-1, as described below.

The Phase Control on the SMS-1 is centered at 80 Hz. While it is better to use the receiver's distance setting to effect the response around the crossover point, if you do want to use the SMS-1's Phase Control, it will only be effective with an 80 Hz crossover.


3. Next, on the SMS-1, select Preset: Setup and set all EQ bands to 0. (A default reset is the easiest way to do this. See Page 41 of the SMS-1 User Manual, linked below.)

4. Set the SMS-1 Level to +15.

Reason:

This is the setting for "Unity Gain" in the SMS-1. The SMS-1 is not an amplifier. You don't want to use the SMS-1 to add gain to the signal. You want it to add or reduce the gain of various frequencies *relative* to the average level, but you don't want it to increase the overall average level. "Unity Gain" means that there is no gain across the device, and the output signal is the same level as the input signal.)


5. Set the Subwoofer Gain Level at it's lowest setting. (We'll turn it up later.)

6. Turn on the left front speaker test tone. Adjust the receiver's MVC so the left front speaker reads 75 dB* at the primary LP. This MVC setting will be the "Reference Level" setting from this point forward.** Remember it.

7. Without changing the MVC setting, shut off the left front speaker and turn on the subwoofer test tone. Turn up the gain on the subwoofer until the SPL meter at the primary LP reads 75 dB. The SMS-1 should also read an "average" level of about 75 dB. (Once you've set this, you should never need to adjust the subwoofer's gain setting again, unless you move the sub.)

8. Now, go back and calibrate all of the speakers to 75 dB at the primary LP. Use the receiver's trim controls as described on Page 43 & 44 of the manual. Once you've done this, your system is fully calibrated for levels, and all of the settings are optimized in each device.

9. Proceed with manual EQ with the SMS-1. Put the receiver into "Stereo" mode. EQ the sub in isolation, (with the speakers off or disconnected), getting it as flat as possible up to the rolloff point of the speaker/subwoofer crossover you set in the receiver.

(Remember that in Step 2 above, we set the "Stereo" output to engage Bass Management. Even though the speakers are off here, the bass from the L/R channels will still be re-directed to the sub.)

(Remember also that any slider bands set above the crossover point will be wasted, so move them all over into the range below the crossover point.)


10. Once the subwoofer is EQ'd, turn the subwoofer test tone back on and reset the level to 75 dB. However, this time use the SMS-1's level control to adjust the volume to 75 dB. This will reset the SMS-1 for exact Unity Gain.

11. Finally, turn the speakers back on and evaluate the response around crossover point. Adjust the subwoofer distance setting in the receiver to optimize the response around the crossover point.

12. Re-check the full system calibration to ensure all speakers and the sub are at 75 dB.

Once you've done the entire process above, you'll have a fully calibrated system with optimized frequency response of the subwoofer. I suggest you try to live with that system for a few days or weeks. Some people are so used to a bloated or "hot" subwoofer level that they feel the bass is "missing" with a true "calibrated" and Eq'd level. Nonetheless, once they re-acclimate themselves to "flat" bass response, they begin to hear detail and articulation in the bass that was previously overwhelmed by bass bloat and boom.

Having said that, some people just don't "like" a flat FR of the subwoofer, and they prefer a rising LF response. There is nothing wrong with that, and everyone is allowed their own preference. If you're one of those people, you have a few options. The first option is to just raise the MVC. This will raise the overall system output, but you should also get closer to the bass response you are looking for. (This also assumes that the rest of your system is up to the task. If it's not, don't try to get bass response at the expense of your speakers! )

If that is still not enough, and you want to raise the subwoofer's output above the rest of the system, I suggest you initiate the Submersive's DSP Program 2. This adds a rise in the response below about 40 Hz, with 3 dB added at about 20 Hz. This should add the feel and kick you are looking for. You can view the effect of Program 2 by watching the response on the SMS-1. It should look like a rising response above about 40 Hz.

If that's *still* not enough, the third option is to raise the SMS-1's level. This will take you above "Unity Gain" on the SMS-1, but *judicious* use of the control should not be problematic. 3 to 6 dB of level increase should be taken in stride by the Submersive.

If the above suggestions don't get you were you want to be, then the only hope for you is another Submersive or 2 or 3.

Craig

Footnotes from #6 above:
*The Rotel uses -30 dBFS for it's test tones, so the test tones should read 75 dB on the SPL meter, ("Slow" setting and C-weighting.)

**The Rotel appears to be a "relative" MVC, (it goes from 0, (Off), to positive numbers), as opposed to an "absolute" MVC, which sets Reference Level at 0, and negative level settings indicate the dB below Reference Level.

Manuals:
http://velodyne.com/pdf/sms-1/sms-1_manual_english.pdf
http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rsp1570.pdf
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post #9554 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
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I don't suggest you follow the above process. Here's post I made from a number of years ago about the SMS-1 and Audyssey XT32. Your process will be different because you're using a Master/Slave, which means you only set the levels from the Master. There is no separate level or distance setting for your Slave. The first step is also important for finding the best placements for your subs.
Thanks Craig -- your post is really helpful. But it seems to reference a method of calibration for a Rotel (without the benefit of Audyssey). My Onkyo SR805 has MultiEQ XT. I was planning to follow the process in the Audyssey thread (which I believe was also authored by you and Mark). It seems like the process in the Audyssey thread would be the appropriate process in this case.

Please let me know if I am incorrect.

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post #9555 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 09:32 PM
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Chasing down room resonances is really hard sometimes. I play a bass test tone, on repeat, quite loud and then go hunting. It's easy to fix rattling furniture or things on tables and so on. Even light fittings. The test tone will find them all. I use different frequencies too because some things resonate at different frequencies. Mine is a dedicated room so it doesn't have very much in it that isn't essential - eg no ornaments and so on. What is hard, or even impossible, is to track down resonances inside the walls. This can happen - there can be wires or debris left in there by builders and so on. In my case I have one resonance that so far I haven’t dealt with. It is caused by two central heating pipes which take the hot water to the upstairs floor of the house. At a certain frequency they vibrate. The only way to deal with it is to rip open the wall and fix the pipes down better but so far I haven't done this. It happens at just one very low frequency which doesn't seem to be in most movies, or not loud enough to cause the problem, so I am just living with it. The only time I really notice it is when the bass, at the right frequency, goes on for a long time - for example in the cave exit scene in Iron Man. Always something else to do with this hobby...
Thank you for the excellent suggestion - certainly beats manually restarting film sections over and over again. I suspect REW has a tone generator so I'll use that. The other side of the wall in question is the kitchen with a built-in cabinet full of plates etc. Hopefully the sounds are coming from there rather than inside the wall itself, which I believe should only contain electrical cabling. Like you I'm not that keen to start breaking open walls :|

By the way, did you end up re-trying the coin experiment at a high sub level?
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post #9556 of 9559 Old Yesterday, 11:10 PM
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Well I have watched the first three transformers in prep to go see the 4th in imax tomm. Lets just say these movies are full of subtle to medium heavy bass effects of so many kinds. None of the three are known for the mega bass hit scenes but a couple especially in the third are intense. But like I said just filled with so many effects. I was just thinking I have absolutely ZERO regrets going the route of these two HP's! Absolutely nothing lacking! #noraegrets !
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post #9558 of 9559 Old Today, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I did. And guess what?


The coin fell over!
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post #9559 of 9559 Old Today, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Thanks Craig -- your post is really helpful. But it seems to reference a method of calibration for a Rotel (without the benefit of Audyssey). My Onkyo SR805 has MultiEQ XT. I was planning to follow the process in the Audyssey thread (which I believe was also authored by you and Mark). It seems like the process in the Audyssey thread would be the appropriate process in this case.

Please let me know if I am incorrect.

CT
Yes, the Audyssey process would be more applicable. Good luck.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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