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post #9571 of 9716 Old 07-18-2014, 02:04 PM
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There here .......!!
Better go grab a couple of chili dogs from the Vienna Inn before you get started...might be a late night.

Mark
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post #9572 of 9716 Old 07-18-2014, 02:07 PM
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Better go grab a couple of chili dogs from the Vienna Inn before you get started...might be a late night.

Mark
Ahh ... I wish -- I can walk to Vienna Inn, and the fried red chili peppers - and chili cheeseburger are how I roll.

Alas ... the wife wants sushi tonight ...

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post #9573 of 9716 Old 07-18-2014, 02:11 PM
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post #9574 of 9716 Old 07-18-2014, 04:17 PM
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Skrill, your gonna love them
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post #9575 of 9716 Old 07-18-2014, 10:50 PM
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Ate a pizza, drank some beer, wrestled these things into position -- ran Audyssey and did a bit of additional smoothing with my SMS-1. Have a nice flat response all the way to 15hz (where the SMS-1 stops measuring). Way better than my old Elemental Designs A3-300 which fell off like a cliff at 25hz.

Very impressive. Unfortunately had my baby boy with me (sleeping in is vibrating bassinet) -- so I could not do any big volume tests. I ran WOTW pod scene at -30db on my Denon -- and still had very nice bass response (possibly due to Dynamic EQ).

The fit and finish on these things at an artisan level, as was the packing materials and packing job. Very impressive product.

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post #9576 of 9716 Old 07-18-2014, 11:01 PM
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Also "Proudly Purple" Occasionally I find the time to drop a HD-DVD in to watch. (Once in a while a Laser Disk also)

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post #9577 of 9716 Old 07-18-2014, 11:03 PM
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Also "Proudly Purple" Occasionally I find the time to drop a HD-DVD in to watch. (Once in a while a Laser Disk also)
I was just watching Matrix a few weeks ago on HD-DVD. Still love my HD-XA2 even though it seem primitive by today's standards for disc spinners.

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post #9578 of 9716 Old 07-18-2014, 11:08 PM
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Quick question -- I did a search and have seen a few posts, everyone seems to say its fine to leave it on. But ... is it OK to leave my SubM on 24/7? Is it preferable? Mine actually has an audible pop from the woofers when I switch it off (not crazy loud -- but definitely there). Is that normal?

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post #9579 of 9716 Old 07-19-2014, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Quick question -- I did a search and have seen a few posts, everyone seems to say its fine to leave it on. But ... is it OK to leave my SubM on 24/7? Is it preferable? Mine actually has an audible pop from the woofers when I switch it off (not crazy loud -- but definitely there). Is that normal?

Yep, pop is not uncommon and Mark had always said it will not hurt the sub.

There is also no problems running it 24/7 as far as the sub goes. Power wise I have read it draws about 10w idling.
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post #9580 of 9716 Old 07-19-2014, 06:06 AM
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Have any of you gone from a pair of JL F113's to a Submersive master/slave combo?
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post #9581 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Thanks Mike.

I spoke to Mark. He felt that most likely I would no longer need the SMS-1 since I will have XT32. That said, since I have it (and I have no other measuring equipment), he suggested taking a look at the FR graph pre-Audyssey -- looking for any huge peaks (i.e. +10db) that XT32 would have a hard time taming (which could result in Audyssey attenuating bass across the board to bring the peak down to the level of the rest of the speakers). If there are no massive peaks, run Audyssey (with no EQ from the SMS-1 - i.e., preset 6). Then look at the result using the SMS-1 and see if there is anything that I might need SMS-1 to adjust. But he also said that in his experience -- it would be uncommon that SMS-1 can really do much to improve a post XT32 room calibration. Most importantly (and wisely) he said to listen and see if it sounds good (i.e., I probably should not get too hung up on graphs and such and just watch a movie). :-)

Of course -- there are rare cases like yours.

My room is pretty simple sealed rectangle (23' long x 19' wide x 8'8" tall). Hopefully nothing that XT32 can't handle.
I use a mini dsp unit PRE AUDYSSEY to tame peaks and hand the baton off to XT32 with a better response to work with. Great team IMO to use anything to tame peaks PRE AUDYSSEY. I found the end result ALWAYS better than just giving Ausyysey my raw response to do all the work. Even if you don't have a 10db boost still try it out and see how you like it

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post #9582 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 07:25 AM
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So I followed Mark's process - looked at SMS, saw nothing crazy, ran XT32, after that it looked pretty flat. But then I tweaked with SMS and got it pretty flat from 15hz through 80hz.

I get a dip in the 80 to 90 hz range which seems to be caused when I add 3db to the LFE channel.

I tried to smooth a couple of dips, one at around 18hz and another around 70. Both required about 3db boost. The rest of the EQ required cuts, some bigger ones to tame a peak around 35ish hz.

I am running the Audyssey (non-flat) curve with Dynamic EQ active with 0db offset. I listen mostly between -25 to -15db - so the Dynamic EQ seems to work nicely.

Here is my SMS result - I will take another pic tonight with the SMS EQ off to show the before. As I am still learning - would love some comments.

I am running PGM2, but calibrated Audyssey in PGM1. Although I did not see a dramatic difference in the two on the SMS readout (and I did power cycle the SubMs).
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post #9583 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 08:32 AM
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That looks nice, there appears to be a lot of cutting and boosting to get the response flat. I am betting you reduced the overall headroom of the subs by 3-6db. Have you experimented with different placement for a smoother response with no eq?
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post #9584 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 08:39 AM
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Here is the measurement with XT32, but with the SMS EQ defeated.

With Audyssey also defeated it's kind of a mess -especially in the upper bass and above the crossover - but I didn't get a picture of it.
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post #9585 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
That looks nice, there appears to be a lot of cutting and boosting to get the response flat. I am betting you reduced the overall headroom of the subs by 3-6db. Have you experimented with different placement for a smoother response with no eq?
I am constrained in placement due to room setup, wiring and aesthetics - these where purchased specifically because of the ability to work well in rear corners. I do plan to that the room.

In terms of headroom - playing the pod scene yesterday at -20db on the main volume resulted in a plenty loud and very imersive experience. If I am losing some headroom - I don't think it will be missed.

Alternatively I could just run with without the SMS since the Audyssey result by itself is not horrid.


Right now the master and slave are symmetrically placed in the rear corners firing in a north / south orientation (i.e firing into the back wall and out to the room). They are 8" from the side walls and 8" from back wall. I could move them a few inches forward or backward or sideways - but that is all I have to work with in terms of placement.

I could try turning the so they angle into the corners - but I think that will certainly look strange.

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post #9586 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 10:20 AM
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Well long as you do not run out of headroom then I would leave it. Just remember you have some headroom left on the table with the current tune up if you ever get to the point where the volume levels start increasing.
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post #9587 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
So I followed Mark's process - looked at SMS, saw nothing crazy, ran XT32, after that it looked pretty flat. But then I tweaked with SMS and got it pretty flat from 15hz through 80hz.

I get a dip in the 80 to 90 hz range which seems to be caused when I add 3db to the LFE channel.

I tried to smooth a couple of dips, one at around 18hz and another around 70. Both required about 3db boost. The rest of the EQ required cuts, some bigger ones to tame a peak around 35ish hz.

I am running the Audyssey (non-flat) curve with Dynamic EQ active with 0db offset. I listen mostly between -25 to -15db - so the Dynamic EQ seems to work nicely.

Here is my SMS result - I will take another pic tonight with the SMS EQ off to show the before. As I am still learning - would love some comments.

I am running PGM2, but calibrated Audyssey in PGM1. Although I did not see a dramatic difference in the two on the SMS readout (and I did power cycle the SubMs).


That's a nice result. Is that with Dynamic EQ on or off? (XT32 defaults to On, so it's likely with it on.) If so, MVC setting were you at when you took the measurements?

That little dip at 80 Hz may be able to be tweaked by adjusting the subwoofer Distance setting in the AVR. Try adding a foot or 2 of distance and see if you can raise that little dip.

Otherwise, it looks great and should sound great as well.

Craig

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post #9588 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
That looks nice, there appears to be a lot of cutting and boosting to get the response flat. I am betting you reduced the overall headroom of the subs by 3-6db. Have you experimented with different placement for a smoother response with no eq?
If you look cloesely, it's almost all cuts. The only boosts look to be at about 18 Hz and 63 Hz, and they loom like just 3 dB. The rest are all 6 to 8 dB cuts. Overall, he's probably reduced the "average" level by 3 to 4 dB. Since the SMS Volume setting is still at 15, (Unity Gain for the device), I would expect that he'll actually see an *increase* in his overall headroom with the EQ settings of the SMS-1.

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post #9589 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
That's a nice result. Is that with Dynamic EQ on or off? (XT32 defaults to On, so it's likely with it on.) If so, MVC setting were you at when you took the measurements?

That little dip at 80 Hz may be able to be tweaked by adjusting the subwoofer Distance setting in the AVR. Try adding a foot or 2 of distance and see if you can raise that little dip.

Otherwise, it looks great and should sound great as well.

Craig
Craig -- thanks for the kinds words and the tip. I will try that with the distance setting.

Dynamic EQ is on (I hope that is ok). I left it on because most of my watching and listening if pretty far from reference (-25 to -15 db on the main volume). I am not sure what you mean by "MVC" -- but I left Dynamic EQ on the default (movie - 0db offset) setting.

You are correct -- I have two boosts (both 3db - I tried to avoid boosts as per advice I had read when reading about the SMS) one at 18hz and the other around 68-ish (I can check for the exact number). The later boost helps a lot with a the dip around 80hz -- without that boost, it has double-dip drop like the grand canyon starting around 75 hz.

I will let you know that results I get when I play with the distance. Once thing I love about this Denon X4000 is how I overlay it's setup menu right on top of the SMS -- so I can make changes, and see the immediate results in the graphing. Pretty slick.

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post #9590 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 03:08 PM
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Craig -- thanks for the kinds words and the tip. I will try that with the distance setting.

Dynamic EQ is on (I hope that is ok). I left it on because most of my watching and listening if pretty far from reference (-25 to -15 db on the main volume). I am not sure what you mean by "MVC" -- but I left Dynamic EQ on the default (movie - 0db offset) setting.
Sorry, MVC = Master Volume Control. Dynamic EQ's effect on the bass is tied to the MVC setting.

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You are correct -- I have two boosts (both 3db - I tried to avoid boosts as per advice I had read when reading about the SMS) one at 18hz and the other around 68-ish (I can check for the exact number). The later boost helps a lot with a the dip around 80hz -- without that boost, it has double-dip drop like the grand canyon starting around 75 hz.
A couple of 3 dB boosts shouldn't hurt anything, especially if they're not wide Q boosts. With all the other cuts you've implemented, you've easily offset them, and you should not have any headroom issues, (at least none you wouldn't have had without the SMS-1.)

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I will let you know that results I get when I play with the distance. Once thing I love about this Denon X4000 is how I overlay it's setup menu right on top of the SMS -- so I can make changes, and see the immediate results in the graphing. Pretty slick.
The most important question: How does it sound?

Craig
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post #9591 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 03:18 PM
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If you look cloesely, it's almost all cuts. The only boosts look to be at about 18 Hz and 63 Hz, and they loom like just 3 dB. The rest are all 6 to 8 dB cuts. Overall, he's probably reduced the "average" level by 3 to 4 dB. Since the SMS Volume setting is still at 15, (Unity Gain for the device), I would expect that he'll actually see an *increase* in his overall headroom with the EQ settings of the SMS-1.

Craig
A 3db boost @ 18hz will effectively reduce amplifier power 50%. So that 2400watt amp is now 1200watts for all frequencies above the boost. If he is not reaching the subs limits with the current config then it is all good. I was just pointing this out for future reference if he finds the limits of those subs.
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post #9592 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 03:52 PM
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Sorry, MVC = Master Volume Control. Dynamic EQ's effect on the bass is tied to the MVC setting.


A couple of 3 dB boosts shouldn't hurt anything, especially if they're not wide Q boosts. With all the other cuts you've implemented, you've easily offset them, and you should not have any headroom issues, (at least none you wouldn't have had without the SMS-1.)


The most important question: How does it sound?

Craig
You raise a great point - I have been doing more tweaking than enjoying. But I did run the pod scene from WOTW at -20db on the main volume and it was incredible.

BTW - changing the distance settings seemed to make the dip at 80hz worse. Audyssey shows 18.2' which is probably 4 to 5' longer than actual. But I think that just accounts for the SMS's processing delay.

What about phase adjustment - could that help with the dip?

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post #9593 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 04:40 PM
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A 3db boost @ 18hz will effectively reduce amplifier power 50%. So that 2400watt amp is now 1200watts for all frequencies above the boost. If he is not reaching the subs limits with the current config then it is all good. I was just pointing this out for future reference if he finds the limits of those subs.
Yeah, but that's only important when all he's playing is an 18 Hz test tone. Whenever he's playing real content, there will be signal at lots of other frequencies at the same time there is signal at 18 Hz. All those 6 - 8 dB cuts at other frequencies more than offset the one boost at 18. For example, say he has a signal at 18 Hz with harmonics at 36 Hz. He's boosted 18 Hz by 3 dB and cut 36 Hz by 6 dB, (1/3 octave filters at 32 and 40 Hz will overlap at 36 Hz and cut that frequency virtually equally.) The net effect of a 3 dB boost at 18 Hz and a 6 dB cut at 32 Hz is zero increase in amplifier demands across the bandwidth.

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post #9594 of 9716 Old 07-20-2014, 07:47 PM
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Yeah, but that's only important when all he's playing is an 18 Hz test tone. Whenever he's playing real content, there will be signal at lots of other frequencies at the same time there is signal at 18 Hz. All those 6 - 8 dB cuts at other frequencies more than offset the one boost at 18. For example, say he has a signal at 18 Hz with harmonics at 36 Hz. He's boosted 18 Hz by 3 dB and cut 36 Hz by 6 dB, (1/3 octave filters at 32 and 40 Hz will overlap at 36 Hz and cut that frequency virtually equally.) The net effect of a 3 dB boost at 18 Hz and a 6 dB cut at 32 Hz is zero increase in amplifier demands across the bandwidth.

Craig
So I was concerned about adding a boost that far down -- should I remove it? Sounds like I am fine. Keep in mind -- I also am using SW2 -- which I think means that the DSP is also adding a +3db down low.

Also Craig -- I figured the Dynamic EQ was MVC dependent, so I EQ'ed at -15 db on the Denon MVC (my house reference -- as I find that pretty darn loud with most content). I also added +3db to the Subwoofer level via the Denon. I did this to bring the lows in line with the 80hz+ stuff after adding all the cuts.

One other note Craig -- and I think this is not big deal -- but I wanted to ask about it. When I ran XT32 on my X4000 -- I originally had the SubM's trim at -10db as the starting point. The test tone register in the 110 db range and Audyssey said it was too high. It then played a tone and I adjusted the trim downward until I get a green light at about 77db. Oddly that required me to take the trim down to what is its absolute lowest limit (-36db -- I suppose the math works). I saw on Mark's setup guide that it is fine and totally does not impact overall output to have the trim so low, and that some systems will require a setting of -36db and some will require 0db (mine is the former). But since we were taking about headroom -- does that fact that my trim is set so low impact (positively or negatively) dynamic range or headroom?

CT

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post #9595 of 9716 Old 07-21-2014, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
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Quick question -- I did a search and have seen a few posts, everyone seems to say its fine to leave it on. But ... is it OK to leave my SubM on 24/7? Is it preferable? Mine actually has an audible pop from the woofers when I switch it off (not crazy loud -- but definitely there). Is that normal?
Mine have been on 24.7 since I got them quite some time ago. No issues.
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post #9596 of 9716 Old 07-21-2014, 08:55 AM
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Ok, this is more a curiosity thing than anything.

So, the HP+ amp is a 2,400 watt amp at 4 ohms, which is what it runs at with a single HP+. However, if you connect a slave cabinet, then it is capable of producing 4000 watts at 2 ohms, essentially doubling the output and driving the slave sub at the same (or close to the same) level as the single sub.

My question is about the 4 ohms vs. 2 ohms. Does this happen because when the slave unit is hooked up that essentially the speakers are now wired in parallel, which drops the resistance to 2 ohms?

Is that essentially what's going on and how the resistance is dropped and the amplifier output is increased?
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post #9597 of 9716 Old 07-21-2014, 09:15 AM
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There here .......!!
Sweet. Have fun. Looking forward to your thoughts on them. Did you post how you are going to place them in your room? Or do you still have to figure out the best spot for each one.
Skrill, I will also add that when Craig setup my sub, he had to set the SubMersive level control to as low as it would go(I think we were still in the low 80's with that) and it really hasn't had a bad impact, so to speak. It still sounds fantastic.

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post #9598 of 9716 Old 07-21-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by INDY27 View Post
Have any of you gone from a pair of JL F113's to a Submersive master/slave combo?
I went from a pair of Velodyne DD-15's and a pair of JL Audio f113's to four SubMersive HP's; this was a couple of years ago, so the master/slave setup was not a product. If you are worried about making the switch, I would say to go for it.

Mark
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post #9599 of 9716 Old 07-21-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I went from a pair of Velodyne DD-15's and a pair of JL Audio f113's to four SubMersive HP's; this was a couple of years ago, so the master/slave setup was not a product. If you are worried about making the switch, I would say to go for it.

Mark
Did you ever have the JL's hit the limiters? Mine have a few times on movies with extended lows...they sound great but have their limitations.
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post #9600 of 9716 Old 07-22-2014, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by INDY27 View Post
Did you ever have the JL's hit the limiters? Mine have a few times on movies with extended lows...they sound great but have their limitations.
When JL users ask me about upgrading, I often ask if they've ever gotten into the limits of the sub, as doing so shows there can be significant benefit in an upgrade, along with the extension and sound character differences. The SubMersive never makes a hard overload noise, freeing you from that concern in listening.

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"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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Seaton Sound , Velodyne Dd 15 Digital Drive Subwoofer 15 Inch Gloss Black , Velodyne , Speaker Systems , New Pac Sni 1 Ground Loop Signal Isolator

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