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post #9601 of 10469 Old 07-23-2014, 10:17 AM
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Yes, Espresso, which makes for a lovely end table at the moment.
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post #9602 of 10469 Old 07-23-2014, 10:23 AM
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I think mine has been on 24/7 since late 2005? I have one of 2 of the very first prototype beta subs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Quick question -- I did a search and have seen a few posts, everyone seems to say its fine to leave it on. But ... is it OK to leave my SubM on 24/7? Is it preferable? Mine actually has an audible pop from the woofers when I switch it off (not crazy loud -- but definitely there). Is that normal?

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post #9603 of 10469 Old 07-23-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Wraith2 View Post
Yes, Espresso, which makes for a lovely end table at the moment.
Well -- they will look excellent I am sure, and sound even better.
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post #9604 of 10469 Old 07-23-2014, 11:53 AM
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I have the red cherry and they are beautiful looking subs. But they sound a lot better then they look!
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post #9605 of 10469 Old 07-23-2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Well -- they will look excellent I am sure, and sound even better.
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Originally Posted by NextLevel217 View Post
I have the red cherry and they are beautiful looking subs. But they sound a lot better then they look!
Well I guess I'll find out sometime late next month....
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post #9606 of 10469 Old 07-23-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith2 View Post
Well I guess I'll find out sometime late next month....
Ouch -- sorry man. Just fire up the HP+ and enjoy it. When slave gets there -- you will be even more happy.
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post #9607 of 10469 Old 07-23-2014, 05:00 PM
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Hi guys,

I apologize for the e-mails which took an extra day or 3 to get responses recently. We had many times shipping out the first half of this week and were short handed with Kelly out sick a few days. We do currently have ~40 various SubMersive F2/HP cabinets in house, but are out of espresso HP cabinets as Wraith2 received the last in stock in his HP+. Most finishes in HP types are in stock and a few various F2's. We will have more black oak/maple items coming in over the next month, but our cabinet shop is backed up with a project for a large customer. This means our current stock of cherry and rosenut variants will be all that ship out until about August 25th. If you are interested in these finishes and want them sooner than later, be sure to e-mail us sooner than later.

Thank you again for all the support and enthusiasm.

Last edited by Mark Seaton; 07-23-2014 at 10:04 PM.
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post #9608 of 10469 Old 07-24-2014, 08:06 AM
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All is well, got my definitive dates. My parade is looking a bit rosier, thanks Mark.
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post #9609 of 10469 Old 07-24-2014, 08:23 AM
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Question. I've seen posts about what the Submersive HPs draw at idle, but how much is a master/slave setup likely to draw when watching movies? I've seen Mark post about how he's hooked up multiples to a 15amp breaker, but that sounded like that was at least partially due to the fact that the wire/breaker can handle more than 15 amps for short bursts.

The reason I'm asking is that I was considering getting an online (double conversion, converts AC to DC and then back to AC) 6 kva UPS (eventually also a step down transformer, but for now just the UPS) to power all the electronics for my home theater room. I'm wondering if I can also power Submersive master/slave from that 6kva unit, or if the submersive amp will be too much draw for the UPS.

Initially, the other equipment powered by the UPS would be an AVR, projector, possibly a Kaledescape and some other low power devices (Roku, etc.).

Any thoughts?
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post #9610 of 10469 Old 07-24-2014, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Question. I've seen posts about what the Submersive HPs draw at idle, but how much is a master/slave setup likely to draw when watching movies? I've seen Mark post about how he's hooked up multiples to a 15amp breaker, but that sounded like that was at least partially due to the fact that the wire/breaker can handle more than 15 amps for short bursts.

The reason I'm asking is that I was considering getting an online (double conversion, converts AC to DC and then back to AC) 6 kva UPS (eventually also a step down transformer, but for now just the UPS) to power all the electronics for my home theater room. I'm wondering if I can also power Submersive master/slave from that 6kva unit, or if the submersive amp will be too much draw for the UPS.

Initially, the other equipment powered by the UPS would be an AVR, projector, possibly a Kaledescape and some other low power devices (Roku, etc.).

Any thoughts?
Don't assume the UPS is a huge benefit. It's nice to not have a projector randomly shut off on you, but many UPS products, while likely regulating Voltage, can produce a lot of noise on the line in the process of re-creating the sine wave. The systems I've seen use a UPS for full system power all used an isolation transformer on the output.

Personally I'd insure you have an effective ground for the system & service and dedicated power isolated from lighting circuits, and save for a quality isolation transformer. Protection wise, the best would be series mode protection from companies like SurgeX, Torus Power (paired with premium isolation transformer), and some Furman devices (not all).

For actual load, the 4kW capable amplifiers idle at the same power (17-20W) as the 2400W versions. More importantly, the F2+ & F2-slave unit actually require ~1/2 the power to produce the same level as a single F2. The pair only draws more power when asked to deliver 3-6dB more than a single unit. The average power draw is often rather low, where 1000W is a safe design power level per amplifier if you aren't pushing really hard into the limits, 2000W if you want to really get silly and never worry.

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post #9611 of 10469 Old 07-24-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Don't assume the UPS is a huge benefit. It's nice to not have a projector randomly shut off on you, but many UPS products, while likely regulating Voltage, can produce a lot of noise on the line in the process of re-creating the sine wave. The systems I've seen use a UPS for full system power all used an isolation transformer on the output.

Personally I'd insure you have an effective ground for the system & service and dedicated power isolated from lighting circuits, and save for a quality isolation transformer. Protection wise, the best would be series mode protection from companies like SurgeX, Torus Power (paired with premium isolation transformer), and some Furman devices (not all).

For actual load, the 4kW capable amplifiers idle at the same power (17-20W) as the 2400W versions. More importantly, the F2+ & F2-slave unit actually require ~1/2 the power to produce the same level as a single F2. The pair only draws more power when asked to deliver 3-6dB more than a single unit. The average power draw is often rather low, where 1000W is a safe design power level per amplifier if you aren't pushing really hard into the limits, 2000W if you want to really get silly and never worry.
Yea, it's one of my attempts to stage into my equipment. What's specked is the 6 kva UPS powering a step drown transformer, which has isolation and a whole lot more (A/V wise) included, but I was trying to get some protection short term and then stage up to the full protection/isolation later.

I may just hold off on the full rack mount, and just go with a UPS for the projector with an isolation transformer built in, and then just go with good surge protection for the rest of the equipment.

How does Submersive amp and/or surge protectors you mentioned do with brownout conditions? Lots of thunderstorms around here, and two things that happen pretty commonly is power going off for 3-10 seconds, or power going off and then coming back with 5-20 seconds of brownout conditions, or power never going off, but lights dimming for 5-20 seconds or so.

It's the on/off and brownouts that always worry me. In my current house, every TV/projector, DirecTV reciever, and in a couple cases AVR, are on UPS's. That's the reason I was leaning towards a 6kva unit to power it all and bridge the brownouts and quick off/on's.
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post #9612 of 10469 Old 07-25-2014, 10:02 PM
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Well -- I finally got my SubM's calibrated and EQed (using REW to help me set my PEQs on my SMS-1). I ran through a test session with War of the Worlds (the lightning bolts and pod scene). All I can say is .... G*D D@MN! That is powerful stuff!

I actually had to turn my sub channel down (even though I was only -20db on the MVC). It literally vibrates the bedroom two floors up. REW shows me getting substantial dbs all the way to 5hz (who knows if the measurement is accurate at those frequencies).

Unbelievable product full stop. Thank you Mark!
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post #9613 of 10469 Old 07-29-2014, 07:15 AM
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Talk about perfect timing on discussion. I have been out of town for about a week or so and wanted to ask whether or not folks are plugging their submersive directly into the wall or into some kind of power conditioner. Right now I have my HP+ directly into the wall but have wondered if I need/should get some kind of protection. Like Tnedator, I deal with some brown outs and such during the lovely summer thunderstorms!
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post #9614 of 10469 Old 07-31-2014, 08:14 PM
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Expecting my F2 next Friday

Hey guys. Not sure if this is the correct thread but I just ordered my Seaton F2 today and it should be here (WA state) by next Friday. It will be replacing two co-located SVS SB13 Ultra's. Please tell me I will notice a big difference!? After reading the last few pages of this thread I'm thinking I'll be ordering a slave unit sooner than later.

By the way I called for the first time today and Mark answered the phone on the second ring and spent a lot of time explaining his products and what would work best. Thanks for the great customer service Mark!
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post #9615 of 10469 Old 07-31-2014, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdoggz View Post
Talk about perfect timing on discussion. I have been out of town for about a week or so and wanted to ask whether or not folks are plugging their submersive directly into the wall or into some kind of power conditioner. Right now I have my HP+ directly into the wall but have wondered if I need/should get some kind of protection. Like Tnedator, I deal with some brown outs and such during the lovely summer thunderstorms!
I do not see why brownouts would hurt a properly designed power amp. Now surges, as from lightning, that's another story. I put whole house surge protectors in each breaker panel. Preamps and DVRs run off UPS's as HDDs do not like momentary loss of power.

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post #9616 of 10469 Old 08-02-2014, 01:21 PM
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so I bought a SMS as a foray into measuring. I followed the steps in the audyssey guide re: a SMS with a XT32, and here are the results I got with my submersive. The top is with Audyssey turned off, and the bottom is with xt32 turned on.

With what Xt32 is giving me, do I even need the SMS??










Last edited by madhuski; 09-08-2014 at 06:55 PM.
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post #9617 of 10469 Old 08-02-2014, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
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With what Xt32 is giving me, do I even need the SMS??
I'd try some "house curve" tuning before deciding. The figure shows a Harman SDEC target curve that I happen to think sounds great. Try -2 dB at 40, -3 dB at 50, -4 dB at 63 as a ballpark. May need to elevate the overall gain of the sub to bring it all back into proportion. The idea is to hear the bottom octave speak clearly.

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post #9618 of 10469 Old 08-02-2014, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I'd try some "house curve" tuning before deciding. The figure shows a Harman SDEC target curve that I happen to think sounds great. Try -2 dB at 40, -3 dB at 50, -4 dB at 63 as a ballpark. May need to elevate the overall gain of the sub to bring it all back into proportion. The idea is to hear the bottom octave speak clearly.

What's the point of the Harmon curve? Just to get more bass in movies/music than it was recorded with? I though the purpose was to get as flat as possible, so that what you hear is what the sound engineers recorded.
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post #9619 of 10469 Old 08-02-2014, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
What's the point of the Harman curve? Just to get more bass in movies/music than it was recorded with? I though the purpose was to get as flat as possible, so that what you hear is what the sound engineers recorded.
Flat is a nice concept for electronics. Not speakers in rooms with humans. That's why mixers are not sitting in flat rooms either.

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post #9620 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
What's the point of the Harmon curve? Just to get more bass in movies/music than it was recorded with? I though the purpose was to get as flat as possible, so that what you hear is what the sound engineers recorded.
Yes you are right. Flat as possible to a target curve like Audyssey's is choosing a reference. Others are talking about a preference. Let's hope others in their room like their preference better than a standard known as reference.
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post #9621 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
That's a nice result. Is that with Dynamic EQ on or off? (XT32 defaults to On, so it's likely with it on.) If so, MVC setting were you at when you took the measurements?

That little dip at 80 Hz may be able to be tweaked by adjusting the subwoofer Distance setting in the AVR. Try adding a foot or 2 of distance and see if you can raise that little dip.

Otherwise, it looks great and should sound great as well.

Craig

when using the SMS-1 what preset do you use 1-6 ?
should the base line be at 80hz or just under ?
when setting the 75db level do i do one sub then just match the gain level or both subs on to 75db
do i calibrate with the SMS-1 with both subs or just one ?

Last edited by motogp34; 08-03-2014 at 08:52 AM.
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post #9622 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 09:16 AM
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Yes you are right. Flat as possible to a target curve like Audyssey's is choosing a reference. Others are talking about a preference. Let's hope others in their room like their preference better than a standard known as reference.
If one is using Audyssey's Dynamic EQ function, it will add the Audyssey version of the Harmon curve at all MVC settings below "0". Clearly, that's Audyssey's "preference." The nice thing about theDynamic EQ is that it will adjust how much bass boost it applies depending on how far below "0" the MVC is. Roger's addition of the Harmon curve is "fixed" and the same boost will be applied irrespective of the MVC setting.

Lombardi said it:
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post #9623 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
when using the SMS-1 what preset do you use 1-6 ?
When doing the setup and intial EQ, use the Setup preset. After finishing the setup, use any of the other presets that you prefer.

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Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
should the base line be at 80hz or just under ?
Not sure what you mean by this. The crossover in the receiver should be at 80 Hz.

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Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
when setting the 75db level do i do one sub then just match the gain level or both subs on to 75db
do i calibrate with the SMS-1 with both subs or just one ?
Before you do anything else, gain-match the 2 subs, (i.e., set both of the SubM amplifier gain settings to the same setting.) After gain-matching, you should have both subs on simultaneously for all subsequent steps in the setup, level-matching and EQ process. Treat the 2 subwoofers as if they are one sub.

Craig

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post #9624 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
If one is using Audyssey's Dynamic EQ function, it will add the Audyssey's version of the Harmon curve at all MVC setting below "0". Clearly, that's Audyssey's "preference."
As I said "Flat as possible to a target curve like Audyssey's is choosing a reference." Clearly, that means you are choosing the Audyssey curves as your reference.
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post #9625 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 09:39 AM
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As I said "Flat as possible to a target curve like Audyssey's is choosing a reference." Clearly, that means you are choosing the Audyssey curves as your reference.
I was explaining for tnedator's benefit. Clearly, you don't need this explanation.

tnedator, here is a measurement of the boosts DEQ applies at different MVC settings:



As the MVC is lowered, more bass boost is applied. Also note that some treble boost is applied. Not shown on this graph is the fact that some increase in level is also applied to the surrounds to compensate for differing hearing sensitivities of the human ear for sounds arriving from the sides and rear vs. sounds arriving from in front.
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post #9626 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
When doing the setup and intial EQ, use the Setup preset. After finishing the setup, use any of the other presets that you prefer.


Not sure what you mean by this. The crossover in the receiver should be at 80 Hz.


Before you do anything else, gain-match the 2 subs, (i.e., set both of the SubM amplifier gain settings to the same setting.) After gain-matching, you should have both subs on simultaneously for all subsequent steps in the setup, level-matching and EQ process. Treat the 2 subwoofers as if they are one sub.

Craig
when EQ should the graft line be at 80 or just below ?
are there any presets you prefer ?

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post #9627 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 04:15 PM
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When is that website coming along? Been about a two year wait I think haha.
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post #9628 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
when EQ should the graft line be at 80 or just below ?
Ahhh.... you meant 80 dB... you had referenced 80 Hz. That's where the disconnect came from. I used to EQ with the average of the graph at 75 dB, but it really doesn't matter as long as the speakers are at the same level and the whole graph fits within the "window" of the display. If you have a peak that goes off the top of the graph, you need to lower the overall level to get the top of the peak back within the "window" of the display. Then find the right EQ cut(s) to reduce the peak. Then you can re-raise the level to 75 or 80 or whatever.

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are there any presets you prefer ?
I never used any of the presets. They're just boosts at particular frequencies, and the boosts change based on what preset you select. I never even tried them.

Feel free to try them yourself to see if you like any of them.

Craig

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post #9629 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Ahhh.... you meant 80 dB... you had referenced 80 Hz. That's where the disconnect came from. I used to EQ with the average of the graph at 75 dB, but it really doesn't matter as long as the speakers are at the same level and the whole graph fits within the "window" of the display. If you have a peak that goes off the top of the graph, you need to lower the overall level to get the top of the peak back within the "window" of the display. Then find the right EQ cut(s) to reduce the peak. Then you can re-raise the level to 75 or 80 or whatever.


I never used any of the presets. They're just boosts at particular frequencies, and the boosts change based on what preset you select. I never even tried them.

Feel free to try them yourself to see if you like any of them.

Craig


SO, from 50 to 80hz the entire graph must not go above 80db

how do you defeat using any presets ?

Thx
Dave

Last edited by motogp34; 08-03-2014 at 06:17 PM.
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post #9630 of 10469 Old 08-03-2014, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
SO, from 50 to 80hz the entire graph must not go above 80db
No. The graph "window" goes to 87 dB. You just need to keep all the peaks below 87 dB. If some of the peaks are above 87 dB, just lower the overall level until they're into the 87 dB "window", EQ the peaks down, then re-raise the overall level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
how do you defeat using any presets ?

Thx
Dave
It's been a few years since I used an SMS-1, but IIRC, you just use Preset 1, which is the "flat" preset. The SMS-1 manual would be able to confirm this.

Craig

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