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post #9631 of 9667 Old 08-03-2014, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
If one is using Audyssey's Dynamic EQ function, it will add the Audyssey's version of the Harmon curve at all MVC setting below "0". Clearly, that's Audyssey's "preference."
As I said "Flat as possible to a target curve like Audyssey's is choosing a reference." Clearly, that means you are choosing the Audyssey curves as your reference.

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post #9632 of 9667 Old 08-03-2014, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
As I said "Flat as possible to a target curve like Audyssey's is choosing a reference." Clearly, that means you are choosing the Audyssey curves as your reference.
I was explaining for tnedator's benefit. Clearly, you don't need this explanation.

tnedator, here is a measurement of the boosts DEQ applies at different MVC settings:



As the MVC is lowered, more bass boost is applied. Also note that some treble boost is applied. Not shown on this graph is the fact that some increase in level is also applied to the surrounds to compensate for differing hearing sensitivities of the human ear for sounds arriving from the sides and rear vs. sounds arriving from in front.
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Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."


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post #9633 of 9667 Old 08-03-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
When doing the setup and intial EQ, use the Setup preset. After finishing the setup, use any of the other presets that you prefer.


Not sure what you mean by this. The crossover in the receiver should be at 80 Hz.


Before you do anything else, gain-match the 2 subs, (i.e., set both of the SubM amplifier gain settings to the same setting.) After gain-matching, you should have both subs on simultaneously for all subsequent steps in the setup, level-matching and EQ process. Treat the 2 subwoofers as if they are one sub.

Craig
when EQ should the graft line be at 80 or just below ?
are there any presets you prefer ?

Last edited by motogp34; 08-03-2014 at 10:53 AM.
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post #9634 of 9667 Old 08-03-2014, 04:15 PM
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When is that website coming along? Been about a two year wait I think haha.
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post #9635 of 9667 Old 08-03-2014, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
when EQ should the graft line be at 80 or just below ?
Ahhh.... you meant 80 dB... you had referenced 80 Hz. That's where the disconnect came from. I used to EQ with the average of the graph at 75 dB, but it really doesn't matter as long as the speakers are at the same level and the whole graph fits within the "window" of the display. If you have a peak that goes off the top of the graph, you need to lower the overall level to get the top of the peak back within the "window" of the display. Then find the right EQ cut(s) to reduce the peak. Then you can re-raise the level to 75 or 80 or whatever.

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Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
are there any presets you prefer ?
I never used any of the presets. They're just boosts at particular frequencies, and the boosts change based on what preset you select. I never even tried them.

Feel free to try them yourself to see if you like any of them.

Craig

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post #9636 of 9667 Old 08-03-2014, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Ahhh.... you meant 80 dB... you had referenced 80 Hz. That's where the disconnect came from. I used to EQ with the average of the graph at 75 dB, but it really doesn't matter as long as the speakers are at the same level and the whole graph fits within the "window" of the display. If you have a peak that goes off the top of the graph, you need to lower the overall level to get the top of the peak back within the "window" of the display. Then find the right EQ cut(s) to reduce the peak. Then you can re-raise the level to 75 or 80 or whatever.


I never used any of the presets. They're just boosts at particular frequencies, and the boosts change based on what preset you select. I never even tried them.

Feel free to try them yourself to see if you like any of them.

Craig


SO, from 50 to 80hz the entire graph must not go above 80db

how do you defeat using any presets ?

Thx
Dave

Last edited by motogp34; 08-03-2014 at 06:17 PM.
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post #9637 of 9667 Old 08-03-2014, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
SO, from 50 to 80hz the entire graph must not go above 80db
No. The graph "window" goes to 87 dB. You just need to keep all the peaks below 87 dB. If some of the peaks are above 87 dB, just lower the overall level until they're into the 87 dB "window", EQ the peaks down, then re-raise the overall level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
how do you defeat using any presets ?

Thx
Dave
It's been a few years since I used an SMS-1, but IIRC, you just use Preset 1, which is the "flat" preset. The SMS-1 manual would be able to confirm this.

Craig

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post #9638 of 9667 Old 08-04-2014, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
No. The graph "window" goes to 87 dB. You just need to keep all the peaks below 87 dB. If some of the peaks are above 87 dB, just lower the overall level until they're into the 87 dB "window", EQ the peaks down, then re-raise the overall level.


It's been a few years since I used an SMS-1, but IIRC, you just use Preset 1, which is the "flat" preset. The SMS-1 manual would be able to confirm this.

Craig
here is my base line, whats your thought ?
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post #9639 of 9667 Old 08-04-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
here is my base line, whats your thought ?
I am also using an SMS-1 and pair it with REW and a calibration mic to allow me to logically model the filters that I then manually enter into the SMS. One thing I have also noted is that the SMS-1 readout is pretty low resolution (or heavily smoothed). I would recommend using a REW setup to actually calibrate the setup.

My goal is to use the SMS to flatten out the bass response between 20hz to 80hz with Audyssey on but DEQ off. Then, after I have flattened the response, I turn back on DEQ to allow it to add the 'house curve'.

Couple of added notes:

1. I would definatley connect the EQ output on the SMS to an available RCA input on your receiver. This will allow you to see how well the sub is integrating with the mains at the crossover point (80hz in your case).

2. It looks like you have pretty large hump from 22hz up through 50hz. Now that may be DEQ (I did not see if you had it on or off). If it is on -- turn it off and see what your curves look like. If it is off -- then I would use the filters to pull that response down. Try to get it all relatively flat at 80db. Then around 63hz -- you have a big null. You could add a boost around there to try to EQ that -- but I don't think it you will get it flat as it looks like a steep null. If you can -- you may want to try varying the position of the subs if you can.

BTW -- Preset 6 is the EQ Defeat preset. I use Preset 2 as my standard preset once I have the curve set in the "Setup" preset.

Regards,

CT

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Last edited by Skrill; 08-04-2014 at 10:39 AM.
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post #9640 of 9667 Old 08-04-2014, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
I am also using an SMS-1 and pair it with REW and a calibration mic to allow me to logically model the filters that I then manually enter into the SMS. One thing I have also noted is that the SMS-1 readout is pretty low resolution (or heavily smoothed). I would recommend using a REW setup to actually calibrate the setup.

My goal is to use the SMS to flatten out the bass response between 20hz to 80hz with Audyssey on but DEQ off. Then, after I have flattened the response, I turn back on DEQ to allow it to add the 'house curve'.

Couple of added notes:

1. I would definatley connect the EQ output on the SMS to an available RCA input on your receiver. This will allow you to see how well the sub is integrating with the mains at the crossover point (80hz in your case).

2. It looks like you have pretty large hump from 22hz up through 50hz. Now that may be DEQ (I did not see if you had it on or off). If it is on -- turn it off and see what your curves look like. If it is off -- then I would use the filters to pull that response down. Try to get it all relatively flat at 80db. Then around 63hz -- you have a big null. You could add a boost around there to try to EQ that -- but I don't think it you will get it flat as it looks like a steep null. If you can -- you may want to try varying the position of the subs if you can.

BTW -- Preset 6 is the EQ Defeat preset. I use Preset 2 as my standard preset once I have the curve set in the "Setup" preset.

Regards,

CT
this is what i have
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post #9641 of 9667 Old 08-04-2014, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp34 View Post
this is what i have
Looks great below 63hz. But a big peak between there and 80hz -- you might want to address that. Again -- I would add in the mains if you can so you can see how everything is working at the crossover. BTW -- I am just a another user, and by no stretch an expert.

Also, when I bought mine, the seller sent me this link about how to use the SMS-1 which I found invaluable. It is the unofficial setup and use guide made by Outlaw. http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

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Last edited by Skrill; 08-04-2014 at 02:30 PM.
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post #9642 of 9667 Old 08-04-2014, 04:25 PM
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It looks like you're using 2 bands and significant boost just above 63 Hz to try to boost that depression. It's generally not a good idea to "stack" filters like that. It can really stress the amps and drivers. Better to use just one band there and play around with the Q to impact the depression. Then move the other band up to the higher range and try to knock down that large peak. A wide Q band set at about 80 Hz should work.

However, as Skrill says, you should add in your mains to see how they affect the response around the crossover. If you're using an 80 Hz crossover, you should add the mains BEFORE you try to do anything at 80 Hz. In addition, the crossovers are not brick walls. The speakers could have a significant impact at 63 Hz and you may not need all that boost to get 63 Hz flat.

Craig

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post #9643 of 9667 Old 08-05-2014, 04:01 PM
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Speaking of Seaton Submersives.. Mark Seaton is coming out tomorrow to do a cursory install of 6 of them as I'm nearly done with my theater renovation (I had purchased 5, but Mark is certain, I needed one more)..


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post #9644 of 9667 Old 08-05-2014, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post






It looks like you're using 2 bands and significant boost just above 63 Hz to try to boost that depression. It's generally not a good idea to "stack" filters like that. It can really stress the amps and drivers. Better to use just one band there and play around with the Q to impact the depression. Then move the other band up to the higher range and try to knock down that large peak. A wide Q band set at about 80 Hz should work.

However, as Skrill says, you should add in your mains to see how they affect the response around the crossover. If you're using an 80 Hz crossover, you should add the mains BEFORE you try to do anything at 80 Hz. In addition, the crossovers are not brick walls. The speakers could have a significant impact at 63 Hz and you may not need all that boost to get 63 Hz flat.

Craig

updated eq

tried with speakers on but no help in dip

is the line good alone 80 or should i raise the overall level ?
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post #9645 of 9667 Old 08-10-2014, 10:27 PM
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I skipped the SMS and all other equalization i have. I am also not the biggest fan of Audysee, but went with a Audysee Pro calibration by Chad B. I believe i have achieved perfection. The Holy Grail of balance, music, sound effects. Listening to my pair of F2's after this, i just don't see how it can get better.

7.2 with Thiel Power Points, twin Seaton Submersive F2's in Espresso. Krell Showcase Amp, Marantz Pre-Pro, Richard Grey Power, Control 4 Home Automation, lots of Blue Jean Cables, Oppo 103D, Sony DVD 777 400 Disc Changer and Samsung Plasma 64" 8500 all in a Salamander Synergy 247 in Walnut.
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post #9646 of 9667 Old 08-11-2014, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiorgio View Post
I skipped the SMS and all other equalization i have. I am also not the biggest fan of Audysee, but went with a Audysee Pro calibration by Chad B. I believe i have achieved perfection. The Holy Grail of balance, music, sound effects. Listening to my pair of F2's after this, i just don't see how it can get better.
4 F2's.
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post #9647 of 9667 Old 08-11-2014, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
Yes you are right. Flat as possible to a target curve like Audyssey's is choosing a reference. Others are talking about a preference. Let's hope others in their room like their preference better than a standard known as reference.
Seriously???

I don't know how to break this to you but the human ear/brain perceives sound in a room differently at different volumes. (That 's called "science", and not "preference"). And one of many reasons that Audyssey offers Dynamic Volume. The curve presented by Roger that was developed by Harmon is an attempt to to find a sort of average static response (versus what Dynamic Volume does).
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R 8:28


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Last edited by audioguy; 08-11-2014 at 08:28 AM.
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post #9648 of 9667 Old 08-11-2014, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post
4 F2's.
+1

R 8:28


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post #9649 of 9667 Old 08-11-2014, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Seriously???

I don't know how to break this to you but the human ear/brain perceives sound in a room differently at different volumes. (That 's called "science", and not "preference"). And one of many reasons that Audyssey offers Dynamic Volume. The curve presented by Roger that was developed by Harmon is an attempt to to find a sort of average static response (versus what Dynamic Volume does).
Did you see anyone say anything different or anything about volume in those posts? No? That is all my time you get to wate.

Gary J
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post #9650 of 9667 Old 08-11-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
Did you see anyone say anything different or anything about volume in those posts? No? That is all my time you get to wate.
I have no interest in wanting to "wate" your time. Your post suggests that anything other than "flat" response is "preference". I am suggesting that "science" says otherwise.
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R 8:28


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post #9651 of 9667 Old 08-11-2014, 04:48 PM
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I just discovered the social network soundtrack. May not be your cup of tea but some very good bass demos!!!!

here is my fav...

DIY Sound Group Volt 10 surround speaker build

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My Setup Thread

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post #9652 of 9667 Old 08-12-2014, 11:47 PM
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mark,

are you checking your email. Trying to get a response from you for an email I sent you on Aug 4
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post #9653 of 9667 Old 08-13-2014, 07:00 PM
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Question on the Submersive HP+ and F2+. What type of cable connects the master to the slave? Is it a Speakon? If so, does the connector of this cable have the ability to be "taken off" the wire and re-applied? Reason I ask is, I have PVC running through my theater that will fit the wire, but probably wouldn't fit the Speakon connector. If I could take the connector off, run the wire, then re-connect, that would work.

Thanks for any feedback.
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post #9654 of 9667 Old 08-13-2014, 07:59 PM
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Cables are a 4 core (typically 12awg) speakon connection.

These are purchased separately.

The connectors are generally easy remove

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post #9655 of 9667 Old 08-13-2014, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Question on the Submersive HP+ and F2+. What type of cable connects the master to the slave? Is it a Speakon? If so, does the connector of this cable have the ability to be "taken off" the wire and re-applied? Reason I ask is, I have PVC running through my theater that will fit the wire, but probably wouldn't fit the Speakon connector. If I could take the connector off, run the wire, then re-connect, that would work.

Thanks for any feedback.
Yes, Speakon connectors were designed for professional use to be 'field-serviceable'. All you need is a screwdriver.


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post #9656 of 9667 Old 08-14-2014, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Question on the Submersive HP+ and F2+. What type of cable connects the master to the slave? Is it a Speakon? If so, does the connector of this cable have the ability to be "taken off" the wire and re-applied? Reason I ask is, I have PVC running through my theater that will fit the wire, but probably wouldn't fit the Speakon connector. If I could take the connector off, run the wire, then re-connect, that would work.

Thanks for any feedback.
That is exactly what I had to do. All Speakon connectors are field-serviceable. They were specifically designed to be so. This means you can take the connector off and replace it using nothing more than a screwdriver - no soldering or anything is needed. Just be sure to reconnect the wires to the correct pins, so make sure you make a note of how it is wired before you take it apart. I always take a couple of photos with my cellphone camera before I dismantle anything - it's easy to forget an hour or so later, and diagrams and drawings can seem clear when you make them, but less clear a couple of hours later when you refer back to them.


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post #9657 of 9667 Old 08-14-2014, 12:28 PM
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Great feedback guys. Thanks!
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post #9658 of 9667 Old 08-14-2014, 02:57 PM
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Do most people leave their subs on all the time, or put them on switched circuits? It seems like the draw is pretty low in standby mode.
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post #9659 of 9667 Old 08-14-2014, 02:59 PM
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Do most people leave their subs on all the time, or put them on switched circuits? It seems like the draw is pretty low in standby mode.
I think this question gets asked a lot by new owners. The anwer is yes -- most leave them on (including me). I believe the HP+ SpeakerPower amp only pulls 7w or 8w (the same as my son's night light) when idling.

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post #9660 of 9667 Old 08-15-2014, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Do most people leave their subs on all the time, or put them on switched circuits? It seems like the draw is pretty low in standby mode.
Mine have been left ON ever since I got them.


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