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post #9661 of 10424 Old 09-24-2014, 01:44 AM
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A while back I posted some initial impression of my F2 (which I really love) and mentioned how great I thought War of the Worlds sounded. My preferred way to watch this film is with the sub 7 dB hot. While to me this sounds just right, I thought this was a quite a large boost and other people here agreed and mentioned that I might be compensating for a room null.

At the time I didn't have any measuring gear. Since then I've had the opportunity to run REW and would be keen to know what people think (please see the attached frequency responses) as I'm still not really sure that the plots explain the large sub boost I feel is needed.

Note: for most films I don't run the F2 hot, and if I do, its usually just 2-3 dB at most. Also, for most music, I don't run the sub hot either and find that everything sounds very balanced. It is only with music with quite low bass, like that in first 10 minutes of The Art of Flight, that some parts of the bass sound/feel a little weak - I suppose this is a result of the dips between 40-50 Hz?

Anyway, l would very much appreciate some feedback. Here are some extra details on how I normally watch War of the Worlds:

Volume: -10 dB from reference
Sub trim: +7 dB hot
Dynamic EQ: On (with a 0 dB offset)
Crossover: 80 Hz
Pgm 2 (both before and after Audyssey XT32 calibration)

Not sure if it relevant but my room is rather small: 3.7m(L) x 3.3m (W) x 2.6m (H). It does however have an opening in the back wall (double sliding doors that are usually left open). The room thru the opening is roughly twice the size of the AV room. (Together the two rectangular rooms form an "L" shape)
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post #9662 of 10424 Old 09-24-2014, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
A while back I posted some initial impression of my F2 (which I really love) and mentioned how great I thought War of the Worlds sounded. My preferred way to watch this film is with the sub 7 dB hot. While to me this sounds just right, I thought this was a quite a large boost and other people here agreed and mentioned that I might be compensating for a room null.

At the time I didn't have any measuring gear. Since then I've had the opportunity to run REW and would be keen to know what people think (please see the attached frequency responses) as I'm still not really sure that the plots explain the large sub boost I feel is needed.

Note: for most films I don't run the F2 hot, and if I do, its usually just 2-3 dB at most. Also, for most music, I don't run the sub hot either and find that everything sounds very balanced. It is only with music with quite low bass, like that in first 10 minutes of The Art of Flight, that some parts of the bass sound/feel a little weak - I suppose this is a result of the dips between 40-50 Hz?

Anyway, l would very much appreciate some feedback. Here are some extra details on how I normally watch War of the Worlds:

Volume: -10 dB from reference
Sub trim: +7 dB hot
Dynamic EQ: On (with a 0 dB offset)
Crossover: 80 Hz
Pgm 2 (both before and after Audyssey XT32 calibration)

Not sure if it relevant but my room is rather small: 3.7m(L) x 3.3m (W) x 2.6m (H). It does however have an opening in the back wall (double sliding doors that are usually left open). The room thru the opening is roughly twice the size of the AV room. (Together the two rectangular rooms form an "L" shape)
Is that REW chart with the sub 7dB hot or flat? We need to see it flat. Also, could you go back into REW and remake the chart with a 10-200Hz window as that is more like the 'normal' chart used for these things. The overall level is quite low too - what SPL do you use for the sweeps? You may need to run the sweep again using something like 90dB.
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post #9663 of 10424 Old 09-24-2014, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Is that REW chart with the sub 7dB hot or flat? We need to see it flat. Also, could you go back into REW and remake the chart with a 10-200Hz window as that is more like the 'normal' chart used for these things. The overall level is quite low too - what SPL do you use for the sweeps? You may need to run the sweep again using something like 90dB.
KBarnes -- what db scale do you like to see on the Y axis?

EDIT: Saw your link -- nevermind.

Last edited by Skrill; 09-24-2014 at 08:33 AM.
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post #9664 of 10424 Old 09-24-2014, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Is that REW chart with the sub 7dB hot or flat? We need to see it flat. Also, could you go back into REW and remake the chart with a 10-200Hz window as that is more like the 'normal' chart used for these things. The overall level is quite low too - what SPL do you use for the sweeps? You may need to run the sweep again using something like 90dB.
Hi, thanks for the reply.

The sub is no longer in the position used to create these plots (it was done a while back and since then I have been testing different sub placements). If a chart with higher SPL is crucial, I could certainly create such a plot but I would not be able to do so soon (need to have my avr repaired). I have included same chart but changed the axis to 10-200 Hz as requested. The chart does NOT include the 7 dB sub increase I use for War of the Worlds, nor does it have DEQ on (which I always have on except for when measuring).

Note: in the attached chart I was trying to capture solely the sub response. The responses shown are of the left speaker and the sub combined but with the crossover set to 250 Hz. In normal use, the crossover is set to 80 Hz.
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post #9665 of 10424 Old 09-25-2014, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Hi, thanks for the reply.

The sub is no longer in the position used to create these plots (it was done a while back and since then I have been testing different sub placements). If a chart with higher SPL is crucial, I could certainly create such a plot but I would not be able to do so soon (need to have my avr repaired). I have included same chart but changed the axis to 10-200 Hz as requested. The chart does NOT include the 7 dB sub increase I use for War of the Worlds, nor does it have DEQ on (which I always have on except for when measuring).

Note: in the attached chart I was trying to capture solely the sub response. The responses shown are of the left speaker and the sub combined but with the crossover set to 250 Hz. In normal use, the crossover is set to 80 Hz.
The response looks fairly good other than the region between 40 and 50Hz which merits some attention. (I am ignoring the chart above 90Hz as the mains will be kicking in by then.

The general advice is to run the sweep as loud as you dare (with the brave going for 100dB). I generally go for about 90dB. Apparently the result is more reliable/accurate if you do this. IDK if it would affect your result much though.

In REW you can run a sub-only sweep by selecting Ch4 (I am assuming here that you use the latest version of REW which is HDMI/USB mic).

You may be boosting by 7dB just as preference for more bass. I boost my dual F2s by 3dB usually for example. And remember that Audyssey aims to give a flat curve at Reference Level - many people find this anemic. I assume you use Dynamic EQ when listening (you are right to disengage it when measuring).

I don't really see a null in your graph in the 10-90Hz range. Nulls usually are very deep and go to a 'point' at the bottom of the inverse spike (more like what you can see at just over 100Hz) - what you have at 40-50Hz just seems to be a dip. You might be able to change that by moving the sub to a different location and measuring again.

Incidentally, what many of us do is calibrate in Pgm 1 and then switch to Pgm 2 afterwards to get that extra oomph at the very bottom end. If you calibrate in Pgm 2 and run in Pgm 2, Audyssey will just EQ out the low-end boost.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 09-25-2014 at 05:02 AM.
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post #9666 of 10424 Old 09-25-2014, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The response looks fairly good other than the region between 40 and 50Hz which merits some attention. (I am ignoring the chart above 90Hz as the mains will be kicking in by then.

The general advice is to run the sweep as loud as you dare (with the brave going for 100dB). I generally go for about 90dB. Apparently the result is more reliable/accurate if you do this. IDK if it would affect your result much though.

In REW you can run a sub-only sweep by selecting Ch4 (I am assuming here that you use the latest version of REW which is HDMI/USB mic).

You may be boosting by 7dB just as preference for more bass. I boost my dual F2s by 3dB usually for example. And remember that Audyssey aims to give a flat curve at Reference Level - many people find this anemic. I assume you use Dynamic EQ when listening (you are right to disengage it when measuring).

I don't really see a null in your graph in the 10-90Hz range. Nulls usually are very deep and go to a 'point' at the bottom of the inverse spike (more like what you can see at just over 100Hz) - what you have at 40-50Hz just seems to be a dip. You might be able to change that by moving the sub to a different location and measuring again.

Incidentally, what many of us do is calibrate in Pgm 1 and then switch to Pgm 2 afterwards to get that extra oomph at the very bottom end. If you calibrate in Pgm 2 and run in Pgm 2, Audyssey will just EQ out the low-end boost.
the louder the better to check for compression issues - just disconnect speakers when running sweep - subs at 100+ Db is not bad

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post #9667 of 10424 Old 09-25-2014, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The response looks fairly good other than the region between 40 and 50Hz which merits some attention. (I am ignoring the chart above 90Hz as the mains will be kicking in by then.
This is exactly what I thought. Hence I was a little stumped why I felt the need to boost the sub so much for War of the Worlds. While its good with just a +4 dB boost, its just perfect with +7 (I can really feel the lightning strikes, the earth cracking open, etc)

I've been trying other positions for the sub but the options are pretty limited. The only other position I really have for the sub has a better response in the 40-50 Hz range, but is worse at higher frequencies, in particular, the dip around 60 Hz is much deeper and wider.

Quote:
The general advice is to run the sweep as loud as you dare (with the brave going for 100dB). I generally go for about 90dB. Apparently the result is more reliable/accurate if you do this. IDK if it would affect your result much though.
I'll give this a try in the future and test if the responses match (aside from a uniform SPL bump).

Quote:
In REW you can run a sub-only sweep by selecting Ch4 (I am assuming here that you use the latest version of REW which is HDMI/USB mic).
Thanks for that - I'm currently using an analog connection from my computer to the avr. Will try HDMI eventually.

Quote:
You may be boosting by 7dB just as preference for more bass. I boost my dual F2s by 3dB usually for example. And remember that Audyssey aims to give a flat curve at Reference Level - many people find this anemic. I assume you use Dynamic EQ when listening (you are right to disengage it when measuring).

I don't really see a null in your graph in the 10-90Hz range. Nulls usually are very deep and go to a 'point' at the bottom of the inverse spike (more like what you can see at just over 100Hz) - what you have at 40-50Hz just seems to be a dip. You might be able to change that by moving the sub to a different location and measuring again.
Could it been that my sub 10 Hz response is too low? Yes, aside from when measuring, I always have DEQ on.

Quote:
Incidentally, what many of us do is calibrate in Pgm 1 and then switch to Pgm 2 afterwards to get that extra oomph at the very bottom end. If you calibrate in Pgm 2 and run in Pgm 2, Audyssey will just EQ out the low-end boost.
Yes - I will try this eventually. Currently I'm still in the process of trying to settle on a good location. It sort of looks like I may have to get some bass traps.

I suppose the conclusion is that I just like it playing the film that way I suppose others would watch this film at reference (I only watch at -10 dB from reference) and hence their experience of the bass would be similar to mine. Maybe having a small, untreated room makes the higher frequencies a bit much while for others with larger, treated room its not so much of an issue. Anyway, that's pretty much all I can think of...
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post #9668 of 10424 Old 09-25-2014, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post
the louder the better to check for compression issues - just disconnect speakers when running sweep - subs at 100+ Db is not bad
Yes that makes sense. I will investigate. Thanks.
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post #9669 of 10424 Old 09-25-2014, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The general advice is to run the sweep as loud as you dare (with the brave going for 100dB). I generally go for about 90dB. Apparently the result is more reliable/accurate if you do this. IDK if it would affect your result much though
a 75dB sweep is perfectly fine for frequency response, you only need more for compression testing.
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post #9670 of 10424 Old 09-25-2014, 03:48 PM
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What is the benfit of the 2400 watt amp over the 1kw ICE amp?

Is it purely how many db's you can hit, or are there any other differrences?
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post #9671 of 10424 Old 09-25-2014, 04:12 PM
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What is the benfit of the 2400 watt amp over the 1kw ICE amp?

Is it purely how many db's you can hit, or are there any other differrences?
There are two types of 2400W amps. The HP and the HP+ -- both are 2400W @4 ohm amps made by SpeakerPower. Setting aside other potential improvements of the SpeakerPower amps, the HP+ also drives a 2 ohm load to 4000W and allows you to drive a passive slave unit along with your powered unit. A master/slave combo puts out nearly as much output as two 2400W units.

It's a great unit -- and the master/slave allows you to get dual SubMs at a relatively economical price.

More info on HP+ is here:

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...3864?&trail=20
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post #9672 of 10424 Old 09-25-2014, 06:20 PM
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There are two types of 2400W amps. The HP and the HP+ -- both are 2400W @4 ohm amps made by SpeakerPower. Setting aside other potential improvements of the SpeakerPower amps, the HP+ also drives a 2 ohm load to 4000W and allows you to drive a passive slave unit along with your powered unit. A master/slave combo puts out nearly as much output as two 2400W units.

It's a great unit -- and the master/slave allows you to get dual SubMs at a relatively economical price.

More info on HP+ is here:

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...3864?&trail=20
Yup - I knew about the HP+. Unfortunately duals are never going to be an option due to WAF.

What im wondering is would there be a benefit to upgrading from the 1kw and to the 2400hp?
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post #9673 of 10424 Old 09-27-2014, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
What is the benfit of the 2400 watt amp over the 1kw ICE amp?

Is it purely how many db's you can hit, or are there any other differrences?
Db's and a little more headroom, especially for the lowest octaves which suck up a lot of power.


Max
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post #9674 of 10424 Old 09-28-2014, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post
Db's and a little more headroom, especially for the lowest octaves which suck up a lot of power.


Max
Yup. In the UK with our beefier mains voltage, the amp in my master/slave pair of F2s puts out 6,000 watts, equivalent to 3,000 watts per sub.

This is how it drives those lowest, power-sucking octaves... note the start frequency of the graph...



Graph is unsmoothed, Audyssey XT32 on, Dynamic EQ off, calibrated with subs in Pgm1 then switched to Pgm2 for normal use. Crossovers are 90Hz.
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post #9675 of 10424 Old 09-28-2014, 06:46 AM
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KBarnes,

That looks great.

Did you go from the regular submersives to the F2's and if so, what did you find as the difference?
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post #9676 of 10424 Old 09-28-2014, 07:10 AM
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KBarnes,

That looks great.

Did you go from the regular submersives to the F2's and if so, what did you find as the difference?
I went from dual F2s with the original smaller international version amps to the master/slave with the huge amp. The difference is what Max said - more grunt at the very bottom end and what feels like limitless headroom.
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post #9677 of 10424 Old 10-08-2014, 11:47 AM
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If you haven't had a chance to experience it do yourself a favor and checkout the first minute of Edge of Tomorrow. I thought I knew what my Submersive(s) could do..., when all hell broke loose last night I realized I was sadly mistaken.
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post #9678 of 10424 Old 10-18-2014, 07:37 AM
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If you haven't had a chance to experience it do yourself a favor and checkout the first minute of Edge of Tomorrow. I thought I knew what my Submersive(s) could do..., when all hell broke loose last night I realized I was sadly mistaken.
I'll pick it up this weekend
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post #9679 of 10424 Old 10-18-2014, 07:42 AM
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If you haven't had a chance to experience it do yourself a favor and checkout the first minute of Edge of Tomorrow. I thought I knew what my Submersive(s) could do..., when all hell broke loose last night I realized I was sadly mistaken.
Too right. Warning: you can easily dislodge loose items. Even if they are in another room. Or in your neighbor's house.
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post #9680 of 10424 Old 10-18-2014, 11:48 PM
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I haven't watched the whole movie yet. But was curious as to what everyone was talking about. WOW!! Craziest thing I heard yet!! Had me smiling for days.
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post #9681 of 10424 Old 10-19-2014, 06:02 AM
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Easy to get excited about that scene but it was actually friggin scary . For old heads like myself watch out for vertigo.

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post #9682 of 10424 Old 10-19-2014, 06:35 AM
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Easy to get excited about that scene but it was actually friggin scary . For old heads like myself watch out for vertigo.
Also, watch out for falling masonry, pictures, ornaments...
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post #9683 of 10424 Old 10-19-2014, 04:02 PM
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Also, watch out for falling masonry, pictures, ornaments...

and take a whiz before Submersives kick in, as it produces too much pressure on the bladder.
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post #9684 of 10424 Old 10-26-2014, 09:02 AM
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I have been excited about the prospects of a Submersive XL for quite awhile. From what I have picked up it appears to be the same design as a Submersive except it will have dual opposed 18 inchers. I thought you would all be interested to see this was just posted on the official SubMersive XL/2 Forum over at Seaton Sound....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted 10/23 #233
Moving along nicely, and will be happening, but we are not taking any orders or deposits until they are ready to ship. Feel free to e-mail us at sales@seatonsound.net asking to be put on an e-mail notify list to be notified first when they are available for order.
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773-290-8436
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now this should not keep you from getting a normal HP+ if you are waiting for the XL/2 as this post could mean they are coming next week, next year, next couple of years - who knows. I don't mind this as I know Mr. Seaton is taking his time to make sure he gets it right the first time. Just FYI.
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post #9685 of 10424 Old 10-26-2014, 10:04 AM
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Can't wait to see the XL. I think it will be a good move by Mark, with 18" and larger drivers all the rage these days.

A SubMersive on steroids, now that is something to get excited about!

JTR Noesis 212HTR (LR)JTR 228 (Center and Surrounds)Seaton SubMersive HP Plus and Minus (Subs)Denon 3312 (Receiver)Sherbourn PA 7-350 (Amp)Oppo BDP-103 (BluRay Player) and Sharp 80" TV
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post #9686 of 10424 Old 11-13-2014, 06:33 PM
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Same here .....can't wait. I did get myself added to the notify list so I'll know as soon as it's ready.

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post #9687 of 10424 Old 11-14-2014, 01:44 AM
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I'm excited as well. I already have 2 Submersive HP's and don't really NEED them, but if they fit in my space, sound just as good, tight and punchy as my HP's, and have significantly more output, I'd be very tempted. I wonder if you can mix them with the regular HP's in a room and have them play nice with each other.
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post #9688 of 10424 Old 11-14-2014, 05:02 AM
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I'm excited as well. I already have 2 Submersive HP's and don't really NEED them, but if they fit in my space, sound just as good, tight and punchy as my HP's, and have significantly more output, I'd be very tempted. I wonder if you can mix them with the regular HP's in a room and have them play nice with each other.
Mark says you can. I asked him about this.

JTR Noesis 212HTR (LR)JTR 228 (Center and Surrounds)Seaton SubMersive HP Plus and Minus (Subs)Denon 3312 (Receiver)Sherbourn PA 7-350 (Amp)Oppo BDP-103 (BluRay Player) and Sharp 80" TV
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post #9689 of 10424 Old 11-14-2014, 02:35 PM
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About to start hosting friends for movie nights. The dual Submersive HP's are soon to be showcased

Gonna watch the new Xmen movie tonight.
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post #9690 of 10424 Old 11-15-2014, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
I'm excited as well. I already have 2 Submersive HP's and don't really NEED them,
"NEED"? That's blasphemy!! No one NEEDS the kind of subs Mark builds. I have a friend who just added two Terraform XL's to his dual HP's! Did he need them? Nope. Can he get the smile off his face? NOPE!

If I were not on a second floor, I would get some Terraforms and add them to my 4 HP's. There is no such thing as too much woofage!!
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