Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 334 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9991 of 10019 Old 06-20-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'd be very surprised if he's using the off the shelf Ultimax driver that PE sells. It might have the same cone, surround, and frame / basket, but the other parts (motor, vc, spider, etc) could be totally different.
Correct, he would have his own magic sauce in it,
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post #9992 of 10019 Old 06-24-2015, 11:41 AM
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What speakers are those? They look too short to be JTR 215's?
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They look like the 215RM's to me...
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Yeah they are 215 rm's on stands.
They look amazing on those stands!

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post #9993 of 10019 Old 06-24-2015, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DRC3 View Post
Hey guys- just wanted to post a pix of my front stage with 4 F2's (with 2 HP's behind my second row seating).

My appreciation goes out to Mark for manufacturing a great (and fun as hell) sub! Movies are great, but music really shines. My second row seating is on a suspended platform....it vibrates violently on low frequency material. The boys and I love it, the wife, eh not so much..lol.

I have very capable speakers, but everything sounds fantastic crossed at 80 with LFE only. One of these days, I'll experiment with external dsp, but for now i'm very happy with how it sounds.

For those thinking about Mark's subs, there is a reason that the design has been around for 10 years (with modifications) and still has excellent reviews.

Gotta shut things down and get back to work....
I'd say keep it grill and plantless. Looks very intimidating IMO

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post #9994 of 10019 Old 06-24-2015, 04:43 PM
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They look amazing on those stands!
Thanks man! I have followed many a post on your system as well....plants are the wife's idea, LOL. Prolly time to start thinking about an AT screen.
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post #9995 of 10019 Old 06-25-2015, 07:35 AM
 
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Have question: Does the psa 3000 compete with seaton subm ? Is the psa v3600 a better value then seaton subm ?
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post #9996 of 10019 Old 06-25-2015, 08:30 AM
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Nope!!! Not at all
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post #9997 of 10019 Old 06-25-2015, 12:47 PM
 
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Nope!!! Not at all
Why is he making that claim. Suposetly there charts make this comparison.
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post #9998 of 10019 Old 06-25-2015, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DRC3 View Post
Thanks man! I have followed many a post on your system as well....plants are the wife's idea, LOL. Prolly time to start thinking about an AT screen.
Nice! I need to update my pics now that I got a decent camera. Actual the green is a nice touch
I am going to get the mini dsp 88A and implement Dirac. No more XT32. Although XT32 and the Open DRC mini dsp on the two Submersives are quite nice.

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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Have question: Does the psa 3000 compete with seaton subm ? Is the psa v3600 a better value then seaton subm ?
All I know is two 2400 HP's in my room are flat to 8hz and absolutely dominate! Big credit to the wealth of knowledge on AVS and guiding me in room configuration and how to optimize gear and seating placement in respect to boundries. But I have a general open area so its pretty nice. Other areas still flat to 10-12hz. Impact and authority of these babies still impress me. I have come on here amazed a few times since getting these and raved. I'm not a fan boy, in fact I tried other routes first but I'm 100% satisfied.
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post #9999 of 10019 Old 06-25-2015, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Why is he making that claim. Suposetly there charts make this comparison.

Those charts are ridiculous anyways, why anyone would even bother to pay attention to those charts is mind boggling.

The only subs that they should even consider using with those silly charts are the subs that have been third party tested by someone like Josh Ricci.
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post #10000 of 10019 Old 06-25-2015, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Why is he making that claim. Suposetly there charts make this comparison.
Why are you trying to stir the pot? Show me where Tom makes that claim? He has pointed out several times that the Seaton SubMersive is one of the best subs made.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #10001 of 10019 Old 06-25-2015, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Nice! I need to update my pics now that I got a decent camera. Actual the green is a nice touch
I am going to get the mini dsp 88A and implement Dirac. No more XT32. Although XT32 and the Open DRC mini dsp on the two Submersives are quite nice.



All I know is two 2400 HP's in my room are flat to 8hz and absolutely dominate! Big credit to the wealth of knowledge on AVS and guiding me in room configuration and how to optimize gear and seating placement in respect to boundries. But I have a general open area so its pretty nice. Other areas still flat to 10-12hz. Impact and authority of these babies still impress me. I have come on here amazed a few times since getting these and raved. I'm not a fan boy, in fact I tried other routes first but I'm 100% satisfied.
I love the seatons as well. If needed they can be well mannered or massively violent! Interesting on the DSP 88A- like to here your thoughts when you get it going. Being able to adjust your curves without disabling room correction is interesting….

I have a Marantz 8801 that sounds great with Audessey XT32, but with the 215's i'd like to dial up the mid bass although the Seatons seamlessly blend in and easily can handle anything less than 100hz. I kind of have mixed thoughts on it. Speakers dialed in as small and crossed at 80 just sounds nice.

Don't have a mic or REW yet, but will eventually get to it.
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post #10002 of 10019 Old 06-25-2015, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Have question: Does the psa 3000 compete with seaton subm ? Is the psa v3600 a better value then seaton subm ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
The 3000 is a clone of the SubM with 1700 wpc vs 2400wpc so It should compete within a few dbs.

3600 is a ported subwoofer similar to the JTR Captivator in performance but having two front firing 18" drivers.
To make more even comparisons, the "1700W" amplifier uses 2 700W ICEpower modules. ICEpower notes on their own spec sheet they can deliver 800W into a 4 Ohm load if you loosen the limits to 10%THD. The 700W deliver is at less than 1%. These are solid performers, but if you want to compare power measured by the same metric, I would compare the 3000i & 3600i's amplifier as 1400W vs the 2400W & 4000W SpeakerPower amplifiers. If these weren't clearly benchmarked by SpeakerPower, I suspect plenty would be claiming much higher power levels.

In the end the realized performance boils down to how you use the power, how well behaved the system is and how useful the output remains as you tickle the limits or push further into them.

While many get caught up in big woofers, box size always plays a large role in low frequency output capability. Box size ultimately determines how much power is needed to realize the potential of the selected driver. Optimization of the driver parameters allows us to both better match the power delivery of the amplifier and to affect the efficiency vs frequency.

The V3600i looks to be a well though out subwoofer providing serious output capability for the dollar. Any ported design faces limitations in extension vs output where the tuning sets a lower frequency practical operating limits. In terms of SPL per dollar, at more than double the physical size, the V3600i should get louder above its tuning frequency. If you are interested in a ported design I would also consider the Captivator 1400 if you have any concerns of height & size of the subwoofer.

The SubMersive holds more attraction when you have any practical limitations on available space and have interest in the lowest octave extension. Even with a good deal of space available, you can pack quite a few SubMersives in most rooms where the price per unit of the HP+ & HP-Slave pair are competitive when looking you start looking at multiples. Many also find value in the fit, finish and design details of our products (even the little details like the magnetically retained grills). A long history of great sound quality in users homes is not by accident, and most customers are able to realize extension into the 8-12Hz range without worry of damaging the subwoofer from excessive levels or surprising soundtracks (like Edge of Tomorrow).

While not having any direct effect on the sound, the SubMersive is fully build in the US with only a very few raw materials coming from Asia, such as some magnets and the cast basket for the woofers designed and built in Eminence, Kentucky. The larger 4000W & 6000W amplifiers are fully built in the US with the circuit boards starting life here in IL with stuffing and final assembly done in California by our OEM SpeakerPower. The ICEpower amplifier modules, which we also use in our full range active speakers, come from B&O's build house in China but the DSP along with the remaining metalwork and parts are sourced and assembled in the US. I have been testing various iterations of these amplifiers for a while and they present a very good value with solid performance as each module easily delivers 70-80% of the performance we had in the 1000W ICEpower modules used in the original SubMersive, but at less than 70% the cost.

No question there are many more great subwoofer offerings available to enthusiasts today vs. 5-10 years ago. The various offerings will be attractive to different people for different reasons. Each designer and builder has a level of refinement they feel comfortable in shipping for the value they offer. I recommend each enthusiast look at what the priorities are for each designer and how well they feel those priorities align with their own and how well each product executes those priorities. We all have slightly different tastes and preferences, so it's silly to think everyone would choose the exact same solution. When I make the decisions of what goes into a product I think very much about what I would find pride in owning for 5 or more years rather than the few $ I might save in skimming over the finer details.

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"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #10003 of 10019 Old 06-29-2015, 01:03 PM
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I have to admit every time that Mark Seaton makes a post it's like reading a little bit into his way of reasoning, which makes me want his products just a little bit more. Also find it a little bit funny that when he speaks the thread basically shuts down because no one knows how to follow up
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post #10004 of 10019 Old 06-29-2015, 01:46 PM
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I have to admit every time that Mark Seaton makes a post it's like reading a little bit into his way of reasoning, which makes me want his products just a little bit more. Also find it a little bit funny that when he speaks the thread basically shuts down because no one knows how to follow up
I tend to agree. Mark's products are amazing ... as all owners know.

Looking forward to hearing more about the SubM XL.
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post #10005 of 10019 Old 06-29-2015, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
I have to admit every time that Mark Seaton makes a post it's like reading a little bit into his way of reasoning, which makes me want his products just a little bit more. Also find it a little bit funny that when he speaks the thread basically shuts down because no one knows how to follow up
Thanks. Although I hate when the discussion stops like that.

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I tend to agree. Mark's products are amazing ... as all owners know.

Looking forward to hearing more about the SubM XL.
There's quite a bit more info on the first step with the SubMersive F18 here on our forum with the set of photos also on our fb page. The 23.5" x 23.5" x 17.5" F18 should be a nice addition, and I am rather fond of how the package came out. The first pre-production units are utility black, but after some polishing of the fit and tolerances in the first run, we'll be planning to veneer the 4 sides and rear of the enclosure as well while keeping the 1 1/8" thick, beveled, black cover panel. Here are a few of the cooler pics from the first pre-production install that also included the 6 Spark XC1's we showed at Axpona 2015:







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post #10006 of 10019 Old 06-29-2015, 05:51 PM
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Ridiculous....and absolutely awesome in every way.

I'm so damn envious. Lol. Maybe someday I'll be fortunate enough to work with you on setting up something similar.
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post #10007 of 10019 Old 06-29-2015, 06:39 PM
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Thanks. Although I hate when the discussion stops like that.



There's quite a bit more info on the first step with the SubMersive F18 here on our forum with the set of photos also on our fb page. The 23.5" x 23.5" x 17.5" F18 should be a nice addition, and I am rather fond of how the package came out. The first pre-production units are utility black, but after some polishing of the fit and tolerances in the first run, we'll be planning to veneer the 4 sides and rear of the enclosure as well while keeping the 1 1/8" thick, beveled, black cover panel. Here are a few of the cooler pics from the first pre-production install that also included the 6 Spark XC1's we showed at Axpona 2015:
I love it -- and love the blue wash light. I am checking back with your main forum often. Keep it up.

For now -- my SubM master/slave setup keeps the smile on my face.

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I love it -- and love the blue wash light. I am checking back with your main forum often. Keep it up.

For now -- my SubM master/slave setup keeps the smile on my face.

Your speakers look so small compared to everything else, maybe you need some Cat12's to fix that
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post #10009 of 10019 Old 06-30-2015, 04:17 AM
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I love it -- and love the blue wash light. I am checking back with your main forum often. Keep it up.

For now -- my SubM master/slave setup keeps the smile on my face.

Your set up looks nice…I know those subs pound that room.
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post #10010 of 10019 Old 06-30-2015, 07:38 AM
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I am happy with my submersive HP+ master and slave combo as well in my current setup, but man that setup Mark reposted pics of in post 10005 is on a whole other level. That would be a dream come true for me! haha
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post #10011 of 10019 Old 06-30-2015, 08:02 AM
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I love it -- and love the blue wash light. I am checking back with your main forum often. Keep it up.
Thank you. This was a simple adhesive roll of blue LEDs on the outer side behind the wood frame for the fabric. The key to lighting speakers is to shield the direct light to the viewers so you only see what hits the subwoofer or speaker being lit up. At some point we'll put a little more of a blinder over the direct light so you don't see the blue glow from the outer edge of the frame to make it look even more stealthy.



In the future I'll likely add some simple examples to our forum on lighting subs and speakers this way and even offer to supply LED strips with appropriate housings as our cabinet shop already does this sort of work with pedestals they make for retail displays. We'll probably install a remote control version to allow blue, red or green to be selected for the 2nd planned install of the F18s which happens to be local to us in the Chicago suburbs.
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post #10012 of 10019 Old 06-30-2015, 11:03 AM
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Mark is going to be the basis for a new mythical character. Subwoofer Claus. He sneaks into the houses of men and women who've been very good this past year but are in need of bass. He drops off subwoofers into theaters, great rooms, and 2 channel listening rooms. He wear cargo shorts full of tools and works barefoot as to not alert anyone of his presence. He's got a twinkle in his eye and a goatee of great power.
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I've been known to be quite generous in the cookies and milk department.
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post #10014 of 10019 Old 06-30-2015, 01:28 PM
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I've been known to be quite generous in the cookies and milk department.
I've heard Subwoofer Claus like stacks of hundreds and good beers. I'm not sure how far milk & cookies will get you.

The important question is does Subwoofer Claus bring his "presents" in a white van?
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post #10015 of 10019 Old Yesterday, 01:03 AM
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I love the seatons as well. If needed they can be well mannered or massively violent! Interesting on the DSP 88A- like to here your thoughts when you get it going. Being able to adjust your curves without disabling room correction is interesting….

I have a Marantz 8801 that sounds great with Audessey XT32, but with the 215's i'd like to dial up the mid bass although the Seatons seamlessly blend in and easily can handle anything less than 100hz. I kind of have mixed thoughts on it. Speakers dialed in as small and crossed at 80 just sounds nice.

Don't have a mic or REW yet, but will eventually get to it.
I have a Cross Spectrum Labs USB mic. I have seen the frequency response graphs, ETC reflections and Waterfall time decay improve before my eyes. I have taken the correct EQ process in that room layout and symmetry was the first EQ move. I rotated my room 90 degrees and everything is perfectly centered from the two side walls. It's the same exact measurement from the middle of my screen both ways. This is the single best EQ move anyone could ever make. Then I found the 1/4 and 3/4 points on my front screen wall gave the best "natural raw" bass response. Then I built 1st reflection point 4 inch reflection panels on side walls and a 2 inch on one the ceiling with an 2 inch air gap. then a few others hung for cosmetic purposes and also add to the overall "taming" of the room. But it has been fun seeing the changes. I remember when I was doing ETC graphs and held a piece of raw insulation up on the ceiling using the old mirror technique to find center channel 1st point reflections. I seen a spike reduce from like -5db all the way to -23db. It was a total nerd moment as I stood on a step ladder with a stick to hold far end of insulation and had my wife click to run the sweep. I recommend highly to get one and "fine tune' your system. Electronic EQ should never be your only method and it should be the icing on the cake after manual EQ is done.

I can adjust my curves as is now without disabling. I do use XT32 on my Denon 4520 but I also use an Open DRC unit from mini dsp for my two SubM's. I think it is a very nice little EQ team. Essentially what is does better over just XT32 is I can implement my own house curve. But also level matching and pre audyssey "pulling down peaks" has proven to be better by what the final Frequency response shows. For example Frequency response without mini dsp pre Audyssey work vs with is smoother. Whether it's audible is another argument but it makes my graph look better lol! But the big ticket IMO is the house curve. I set the low shelf then click bypass. Run the process of pulling down peaks and present Audyssey with less work to do then run Audyssey and un bypass the low shelf and all set!

Your setup is quite unique in that your main speakers are very bass capable. I would not be able to rest until I have at least tried to run LCR full range with subs implemented as well. Like the mentality of having more subs around your room=better FR response and especially across all seating and just a little more impact as well. I believe the 88A could run such an setup for your system. I want to try it mainly because I am convinced by fellow AVS friends and AVS strangers that the SQ and surround experience is enhanced significantly. Being able to set multiple curves for different content, moods or guests is a bonus.
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post #10016 of 10019 Old Yesterday, 12:07 PM
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FYI -

FS: Seaton CAT 8 Black Maple

I know this is the sub thread but thought some might be interested.

Thanks,
Greg
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post #10017 of 10019 Old Yesterday, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I have a Cross Spectrum Labs USB mic. I have seen the frequency response graphs, ETC reflections and Waterfall time decay improve before my eyes. I have taken the correct EQ process in that room layout and symmetry was the first EQ move. I rotated my room 90 degrees and everything is perfectly centered from the two side walls. It's the same exact measurement from the middle of my screen both ways. This is the single best EQ move anyone could ever make. Then I found the 1/4 and 3/4 points on my front screen wall gave the best "natural raw" bass response. Then I built 1st reflection point 4 inch reflection panels on side walls and a 2 inch on one the ceiling with an 2 inch air gap. then a few others hung for cosmetic purposes and also add to the overall "taming" of the room. But it has been fun seeing the changes. I remember when I was doing ETC graphs and held a piece of raw insulation up on the ceiling using the old mirror technique to find center channel 1st point reflections. I seen a spike reduce from like -5db all the way to -23db. It was a total nerd moment as I stood on a step ladder with a stick to hold far end of insulation and had my wife click to run the sweep. I recommend highly to get one and "fine tune' your system. Electronic EQ should never be your only method and it should be the icing on the cake after manual EQ is done.

I can adjust my curves as is now without disabling. I do use XT32 on my Denon 4520 but I also use an Open DRC unit from mini dsp for my two SubM's. I think it is a very nice little EQ team. Essentially what is does better over just XT32 is I can implement my own house curve. But also level matching and pre audyssey "pulling down peaks" has proven to be better by what the final Frequency response shows. For example Frequency response without mini dsp pre Audyssey work vs with is smoother. Whether it's audible is another argument but it makes my graph look better lol! But the big ticket IMO is the house curve. I set the low shelf then click bypass. Run the process of pulling down peaks and present Audyssey with less work to do then run Audyssey and un bypass the low shelf and all set!

Your setup is quite unique in that your main speakers are very bass capable. I would not be able to rest until I have at least tried to run LCR full range with subs implemented as well. Like the mentality of having more subs around your room=better FR response and especially across all seating and just a little more impact as well. I believe the 88A could run such an setup for your system. I want to try it mainly because I am convinced by fellow AVS friends and AVS strangers that the SQ and surround experience is enhanced significantly. Being able to set multiple curves for different content, moods or guests is a bonus.
Jpowell84- when you get the 88A how do you set it up with your Denon? Essentially, what has to be done to the signal prior to sending it to the 88a or any other secondary DSP device?

Similarly- I see where guys are using pro amps like Crown or Inuke that have DSP. Are they running Audessey (or manual EQ) and secondarily adjusting eq levels at the Crown or Inuke? Double processing doesn't make much sense?

I've tried running things with LCR full range, but Audyssey tends to lean out the bass to the mains and center channel…so it sounds much better with all speakers set to small and the Submersives crossed at 80 (although I haven't tried to manually eq). I figured they are all the same drivers, so their capabilities (sonically) should be fairly identical. I'd like to test how it would sound boosting lower frequencies of the LCR's and keeping the same level of bass from the sub m's. That would be the ticket!

Lastly, If i turn off Dynamic EQ and try to manually eq, will the other room characteristics stored by audyssey (i.e. time alignment, distances, etc) be lost?

Man I wish you were local, LOL. I'd be nice to see your system and learn how you set things up, especially reflection points and acoustic/diffraction panels, etc….
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRC3 View Post
Jpowell84- when you get the 88A how do you set it up with your Denon? Essentially, what has to be done to the signal prior to sending it to the 88a or any other secondary DSP device?

Similarly- I see where guys are using pro amps like Crown or Inuke that have DSP. Are they running Audessey (or manual EQ) and secondarily adjusting eq levels at the Crown or Inuke? Double processing doesn't make much sense?

I've tried running things with LCR full range, but Audyssey tends to lean out the bass to the mains and center channel…so it sounds much better with all speakers set to small and the Submersives crossed at 80 (although I haven't tried to manually eq). I figured they are all the same drivers, so their capabilities (sonically) should be fairly identical. I'd like to test how it would sound boosting lower frequencies of the LCR's and keeping the same level of bass from the sub m's. That would be the ticket!

Lastly, If i turn off Dynamic EQ and try to manually eq, will the other room characteristics stored by audyssey (i.e. time alignment, distances, etc) be lost?

Man I wish you were local, LOL. I'd be nice to see your system and learn how you set things up, especially reflection points and acoustic/diffraction panels, etc….
The 88A goes last in the signal chain unless you have a amp then it goes after AVR before amp. I only use my Denon 4520 as my JTR's and two DIY Sound Group surrounds are 96-98db sensitive.

If you use Audyssey you want to run it last. If you have EQ capabilities from any device you want to run a sweep and use your filters to pull down peaks. Then you run Audyssey last. If you have any kind of low shelf filter giving you your preferred house curve you want to disable it or bypass it because Audyssey will attempt to pull it down.

It's not double processing. It's using multiple devices as a team. Audyssey does its thing and you cannot adjust anything. If you can present Audyssey with a smoother frequency response then the final result will be better. I have graphs at home to prove it. So I take my raw response AFTER ALL NATURAL EQ WITH ROOM PLACEMENT AND ROOM TREATMENTS. Electronic EQ is SUPPOSED to be the final thing, the icing on the cake. For us with extreme systems we have invested so much we should never only run Audyssey (or other electronic eq), that would be blasphemy.

It sounds like you really need more EQ/DSP capabilities than just Audyssey. You have spent a lot so whats another 1k? It's like building a bad a$$ turbo motor and not running a fine tune on the dyno. Anyone who knows anything about turbo motors knows it's all about the final tune. It's staggering the performance gains you can get by a fine tune. So is the same theology with our HT systems. You can EQ each channel independently with the 88A! So each of those 215 RM's can each individually have the mid bass boosted. The frequency response can be manipulated for each speaker and sub you have.

Okay so reflection points. There is a very simple old school way of identifying each. Take a small lightweight mirror and put a little tape enough to hold it on the wall or ceiling. As you are sitting in your listening position and look at that mirror on the ceiling and you can see the Horn of you 215RM center channel then that is the 1st point reflection! It works very easy with two people because you can sit and have them move it until you see the Horn entry. It's that simple! I wish I was close to hear this 215's! I would so love to help tune your system. But we can easily do so using AVS. I didn't know anything before I came to AVS. I had no idea what a crossover was, etc. I'm not anywhere near the veterans on AVS but I can setup and tune any system.

If you turn off Dynamic EQ and try to EQ manually? what do you mean exactly? Do you have other gear with EQ capabilities? You won't lose distances/time alignment by turning off Dynamic EQ.

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DIY Sound Group Volt 10 surround speaker build
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My Setup Thread
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...4-s-setup.html

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Also DRC3 building room treatments/reflection panels is very easy to do and gives you a nice sense of investment into the finished product of your system. And it's super cheap too. I built all mine for only a few hundred bucks and a weekend.

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DIY Sound Group Volt 10 surround speaker build
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