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post #10081 of 10105 Old 08-04-2015, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
With the 4x #11 wire we use for the slave cables we sell and make in house, you have to get into a rather long length before there is any measurable difference.
You put two 11ga conductors in parallel for the + and -? That's equivalent to 8ga I think.

I was only thinking to use a 2 conductor 12ga SOOW for my slave sub.
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post #10082 of 10105 Old 08-04-2015, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
You put two 11ga conductors in parallel for the + and -? That's equivalent to 8ga I think.

I was only thinking to use a 2 conductor 12ga SOOW for my slave sub.
Correct, that's comparable to a pair of 8AWG wires, but the 4x cables are more common, and the jacket is more round and terminates more easily. Since the internally powered sub only has ~2' of wire, it's good measure and allows longer runs. The 4x12 in-wall wiring has a much thinner jacket if the diameter of the wire is a problem for any reason or if you need a white or grey jacket.

All 4 pins of the SpeakON are connected with +1/+2 in parallel along with -1/-2, so just use 4x 12AWG. While for 70% of the range it doesn't matter much, remember the lower the minimum impedance, the more the wire size can matter. For the small cost difference going to heavier copper, it's silly to waste power in a speaker cable.

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post #10083 of 10105 Old 08-04-2015, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Correct, that's comparable to a pair of 8AWG wires, but the 4x cables are more common, and the jacket is more round and terminates more easily. Since the internally powered sub only has ~2' of wire, it's good measure and allows longer runs. The 4x12 in-wall wiring has a much thinner jacket if the diameter of the wire is a problem for any reason or if you need a white or grey jacket.

All 4 pins of the SpeakON are connected with +1/+2 in parallel along with -1/-2, so just use 4x 12AWG. While for 70% of the range it doesn't matter much, remember the lower the minimum impedance, the more the wire size can matter. For the small cost difference going to heavier copper, it's silly to waste power in a speaker cable.
Thanks for the reply. I didn't realize the SpeakON on the SP1-4000 had all 4 terminals connected. I figured it would require paralleling up the conductors in the connectors. That certainly makes things easier. I did notice the warning about using class 1 wiring. I didn't find any class 1 speaker wire. Hence my looking to SOOW or SJOOW. FWIW, I'm not sure how far apart my two subs will end up. It might only be a few feet.

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post #10084 of 10105 Old 08-04-2015, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
That's pretty close correlation between measurements considering you have both subs running in-room an acoustically small room vs. the bass wavelengths involved.

You can see the main low pass or LFE channel low pass in the measurement and still see a bump or 2 in the 9-16Hz range vs the outdoor response.

The + and slave units do perform identically as they receive the identical signal. With the 4x #11 wire we use for the slave cables we sell and make in house, you have to get into a rather long length before there is any measurable difference. Remember the + & slave unit function just like you connected 2 subs off the same binding posts on an amplifier.
Mark, I had you make a 16' cable, and in reality, 7-8' is all I need. When you are talking about long length before measurable difference, is 16' "long" or is there no difference between 8' and 16'? I was wondering if I should shorten it to the minimum required or just coil up and leave the extra?

I'll never use it in a different location that requires more length, since this is behind a 10.5' screen in an Erskine theater, but Adam Pelz the calibrator wants the levels on each sub as close as possible.
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post #10085 of 10105 Old 08-05-2015, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
We also have an upcoming shallow depth, single 15" module intended to fit in places where an HP or F2 can't. It is 16" x 30" on the face, and only 11" deep.
Wow! My whole challenge right now is that I have to put my two subs in opposite corners of room for flat response. But I really want a sub near field for the extra punch. I want to upgrade my exiting two subs badly, but I don't want to buy 3 subs. This sounds like the ticket!

I could put a HP+ behind my couch and then a F15s in opposite corners of room (two corners).

How would the cords flow on a HP+ and two F15s? I have to run cords around my walls. How would you actually hook these three subs together - can you run a seperate cord from HP+ to each F15s? Since HP+ is in middle of two F15s, this would be ideal.

Or do you need to run a cord from HP+ to one F15s, and then from that F15s to the other one? I could do this but room opens into dining room, so to avoid running cords across that opening.. It would take nearly a 50 foot cord to get from one F15s to the other.
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post #10086 of 10105 Old 08-05-2015, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Mark, I had you make a 16' cable, and in reality, 7-8' is all I need. When you are talking about long length before measurable difference, is 16' "long" or is there no difference between 8' and 16'? I was wondering if I should shorten it to the minimum required or just coil up and leave the extra?

I'll never use it in a different location that requires more length, since this is behind a 10.5' screen in an Erskine theater, but Adam Pelz the calibrator wants the levels on each sub as close as possible.
It's not hard to re-terminate the cable shorter, but at 16' long there is no concern. I generally consider anything under 20' as "short" when using the cable we offer. I only start questioning customers to confirm the length is necessary when we get past about 30'. Within 35-50' the differences are still extremely small and not audible. For some perspective, when looking at 35-75' lengths you have 2-4x the effect that a 16' cable might have. Note that for thebland's monster system we used two 75' runs from the rack mounted amplifier at the rear of the room to the front wall to power 2 SubMersives from each line and things worked wonderfully.

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post #10087 of 10105 Old 08-31-2015, 12:30 PM
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Interesting to see a formal review of a seaton sub published - http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...all-pages.html - that is a first isn't it?
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post #10088 of 10105 Old 08-31-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Interesting to see a formal review of a seaton sub published - http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...all-pages.html - that is a first isn't it?
Great review ! Congrats Mark
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post #10089 of 10105 Old 08-31-2015, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Interesting to see a formal review of a seaton sub published - http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...all-pages.html - that is a first isn't it?
Quote from review
"There are two programs that can be set. Program 1 delivers 19 Hz - 200 Hz, ± 3 dB, and Program 2 gives 15 Hz - 200 Hz ± 3 dB. I went with the default factory setting, which was Program 1. There is also a limiter dial that you can set to keep the amplifier from clipping. Again, I went with the factory default. I did this as I suspect most consumers will not want to fuss with the program or the clipping protection."

I thought the two different PGM settings were simply add a 3db bump below around 45hz or leave it flatter. Kind of like adding a little shelf filter. Measurements of each have shown identical responses but just a small rise down lower. I didn't realize one was for 15hz and one was for 19hz?

Also what is the limiter dial? Is he talking about the gain?

I agree nice to see this review Are the newer HPi models still using Speaker Power amps? If so I was surprised they didn't mention that as SP amps are known to be better than run of the mill amps.

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post #10090 of 10105 Old 08-31-2015, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Quote from review
"There are two programs that can be set. Program 1 delivers 19 Hz - 200 Hz, ± 3 dB, and Program 2 gives 15 Hz - 200 Hz ± 3 dB. I went with the default factory setting, which was Program 1. There is also a limiter dial that you can set to keep the amplifier from clipping. Again, I went with the factory default. I did this as I suspect most consumers will not want to fuss with the program or the clipping protection."

I thought the two different PGM settings were simply add a 3db bump below around 45hz or leave it flatter. Kind of like adding a little shelf filter. Measurements of each have shown identical responses but just a small rise down lower. I didn't realize one was for 15hz and one was for 19hz?

Also what is the limiter dial? Is he talking about the gain?

I agree nice to see this review Are the newer HPi models still using Speaker Power amps? If so I was surprised they didn't mention that as SP amps are known to be better than run of the mill amps.
I believe there was some confusion on the "limiter". I thought I caught any technical details but I'll mention it. The limiting/protection of the amplifier remains the same for both response programs and any volume/level setting.

Also realize that Secrets' writes to a wider audience which would consider the SubMersive to be a rather massive subwoofer rather than the "just right" or "very reasonable" size most consider it in the context of the AVS subwoofer addiction.
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post #10091 of 10105 Old 08-31-2015, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I believe there was some confusion on the "limiter". I thought I caught any technical details but I'll mention it. The limiting/protection of the amplifier remains the same for both response programs and any volume/level setting.

Also realize that Secrets' writes to a wider audience which would consider the SubMersive to be a rather massive subwoofer rather than the "just right" or "very reasonable" size most consider it in the context of the AVS subwoofer addiction.
Mark --

Is the reviewer also mistaken in his belief that the HPi+ (on a 220V main) is capable of putting out more output than the regular HP+? I gathered from your site - that the 2400/4000W HP+ and the 6000W HPi+ put out the approximately the same output (assuming a strong mainline voltage in the 120V circuit -- I have dedicated 20amp lines in my case). Which is correct?

Thanks!
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post #10092 of 10105 Old 08-31-2015, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Mark --

Is the reviewer also mistaken in his belief that the HPi+ (on a 220V main) is capable of putting out more output than the regular HP+? I gathered from your site - that the 2400/4000W HP+ and the 6000W HPi+ put out the approximately the same output (assuming a strong mainline voltage in the 120V circuit -- I have dedicated 20amp lines in my case). Which is correct?

Thanks!
The HP+ & HPi+ have the same maximum output capabilities.

If you really push the SubMersive hard with big dynamics you will see the "clip" LED on HP+ flicker a bit, where you would see less flickering on the HPi+ running on 230-240V (more running at 120V). With the way we use the amplifiers in the SubMersive HP/F2 models you won't hear any difference so long as the 120V line isn't significantly sagging.

This type of sagging of the power line can only happen with extended duration content below ~25Hz, and most home systems will show a bigger difference in Voltage measured mid day vs evening. Available power is a detail I am always very conscious of. The SubMersive is quite power efficient over it's operating range such that the maximum amplifier is largely kept in reserve for big dynamics and the less efficient VLF reproduction. You will find many customers have no issue at all powering 4 SubMersive cabinets from two of our "+" model amplifiers (4000W each) on a single 20A, 120V circuit/line.
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post #10093 of 10105 Old 08-31-2015, 05:55 PM
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I can never quite get the hang of interpreting charts but, from what I think the text is saying, distortion from 15hz on up is incredibly low!. Looking at Data-bass, I can't find anything that approaches the low overall THD measured. Perhaps this is why so many of the folks who have attended the GTGs rave about the clean, articulate sound of the Submersives. Very impressive indeed, Mr. Seaton!!!
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post #10094 of 10105 Old 09-01-2015, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
I can never quite get the hang of interpreting charts but, from what I think the text is saying, distortion from 15hz on up is incredibly low!. Looking at Data-bass, I can't find anything that approaches the low overall THD measured. Perhaps this is why so many of the folks who have attended the GTGs rave about the clean, articulate sound of the Submersives. Very impressive indeed, Mr. Seaton!!!
Thank you for taking a close look at all the info in the review, you are definitely correct.

I would caution against too much comparison of John Johnson's test data vs those done by others like the more rigorous testing at Data-Bass, especially with regards to output capability. I will double check with him, but I believe the measurements were all taken in the middle of his room or off the midpoint of a wall. Much more useful comparisons can be had by looking at his past history of reviews. You will see the SubMersive is similarly low in distortion with more headroom beyond his 100dB spot-check or exceeds many well known subwoofers he has tested.

A quick scan of the subwoofer reviews under the "AUDIO" section found these past reviews for some comparison. The first 2 show how well the SubMersive has strengths over even the servo-feedback designs like the $10k Paradigm Sub2, and Velodyne DD-18+, while also showing much lower distortion, more output and deeper extension than well reviewed subs like the JL F113 and Ken Kreisel DXD-12012. Do take note a few older reviews measured at 1 foot rather than 2m or the 18" distance he used for the frequency response he saw in his room.

Direct links to Secrets' subwoofer reviews by John Johnson - "On the bench"

SubMersive HPi+
Paradigm Sub 2
Velodyne DD-18+
JL Audio F113
KEN KREISEL DXD-12012
JL Audio F212
Sunfire SDS-10
Earthquake MiniMe P10
Earthquake Supernova MKV15

Poking through the above, here's a fun quote from the earlier review of the Paradigm Sub2:
Quote:
At 15 Hz and 100 dB output, with the microphone 2 meters away, distortion was less than 2%. That is a landmark result. But it gets better. At all measurements up to 50 Hz, 100 dB output, and the microphone 2 meters away, distortion never rose above 2% except at 25 Hz, where it was still only at 2.3%. I am speechless about these results, except for the word "Astonishing".
Having some fun with some admitted cherry-picking...

15Hz 100dB - Sub2 vs SubMersive:


20Hz 100dB - Sub2 vs SubMersive:


25Hz 100dB - Sub2 vs SubMersive:


And then in the very important upper octave... 50Hz 100dB - Sub2 vs SubMersive:


Happy reading.

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Last edited by Mark Seaton; 09-01-2015 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Edit: Paradigm actually lists for $10,500 not $9,000. :rolleyes:
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post #10095 of 10105 Old 09-01-2015, 09:41 AM
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As I said on your forum Mark, congrats on a great review. I didn't need measurements to buy it or to prove to me that it sounds and performs great , but it's good to see a formal review of it.

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post #10096 of 10105 Old 09-01-2015, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Thank you for taking a close look at all the info in the review, you are definitely correct.

I would caution against too much comparison of John Johnson's test data vs those done by others like the more rigorous testing at Data-Bass, especially with regards to output capability. I will double check with him, but I believe the measurements were all taken in the middle of his room or off the midpoint of a wall. Much more useful comparisons can be had by looking at his past history of reviews. You will see the SubMersive is similarly low in distortion with more headroom beyond his 100dB spot-check or exceeds many well known subwoofers he has tested.

A quick scan of the subwoofer reviews under the "AUDIO" section found these past reviews for some comparison. The first 2 show how well the SubMersive has strengths over even the servo-feedback designs like the $9k Paradigm Sub2, and Velodyne DD-18+, while also showing much lower distortion, more output and deeper extension than well reviewed subs like the JL F113 and Ken Kreisel DXD-12012. Do take note a few older reviews measured at 1 foot rather than 2m or the 18" distance he used for the frequency response he saw in his room.

Direct links to Secrets' subwoofer reviews by John Johnson - "On the bench"

SubMersive HPi+
Paradigm Sub 2
Velodyne DD-18+
JL Audio F113
KEN KREISEL DXD-12012
JL Audio F212
Sunfire SDS-10
Earthquake MiniMe P10
Earthquake Supernova MKV15

Poking through the above, here's a fun quote from the earlier review of the Paradigm Sub2:


Having some fun with some admitted cherry-picking...

15Hz 100dB - Sub2 vs SubMersive:


20Hz 100dB - Sub2 vs SubMersive:


25Hz 100dB - Sub2 vs SubMersive:


And then in the very important upper octave... 50Hz 100dB - Sub2 vs SubMersive:


Happy reading.
That's the million $ question for me Mark and curious as to why he omitted it from the review if he did adhere to his normal practice of pulling the sub measured out from the adjacent walls (by how many feet etc..) then the results are simply incredible for distortion levels and output but do to the distortion levels alone (Its what we here that matters most) I may have just found a new contender for the sub in the rear of my room

This is only cherry picking of course
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post #10097 of 10105 Old 09-01-2015, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
That's the million $ question for me Mark and curious as to why he omitted it from the review if he did adhere to his normal practice of pulling the sub measured out from the adjacent walls (by how many feet etc..) then the results are simply incredible for distortion levels and output but do to the distortion levels alone (Its what we here that matters most) I may have just found a new contender for the sub in the rear of my room

This is only cherry picking of course
I'm pretty sure it was placed in the same manner as the Sub 2, but I'll verify. Yes, the measurement condition descriptions are a bit lacking. That said, a subwoofer and speakers in general don't forever continue to produce lower distortion with lower level. The low distortion measured confirms that within linear operating limits the distortion comes down to a very low level. If we dive a little deeper into the graphs you can see a distinct lack of or very low level higher harmonics above ~200Hz in all of the measurements. In the 50Hz graph this is very apparent where the Paradigm has it's harmonic spikes still above 40-50dB up past 600Hz range while the SubMersive is below 40dB at 250Hz and mostly below 30dB above 300Hz.

While there are many things which can cause higher order distortion, one of those factors is operational noise. Many subwoofers simply make a lot of mechanical noise that make a "woosh" or rough friction noise when moving back and forth. The SubMersive is rather quiet within its limits and the distortion it does make is lower order which is much less audible and less offensive than higher order harmonics. To be fair, these are rather low levels of distortion, but it should be obvious visually they could have a different sound character.

Another interesting comparison is the F113 measurements which were taken at only 1' distance which means the sub was producing ~16dB less output than the SubMersive or Sub 2.
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post #10098 of 10105 Old 09-01-2015, 03:26 PM
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While I think it is awesome that the SubM finally got a pro review, the review, in my opinion, was quite unfair in a way. Mark has subtlely pointed out in the above posts, but I feel it deserves more attention. The reviewer raved the Paradigm Sub2's measurements, calling it "a landmark result", yet the Submersive beat the Paradigm's "landmark result" in every frequency, and only gets a "very good" from the reviewer.

For the DD18+, the reviewer writes

Quote:
"At 15 Hz and 100 dB output, at 2 meters, distortion was less than 5%, which is pretty amazing".
For the SubM, the reviewer writes

Quote:
"At 15 Hz, THD+N was less than 2% at 100 dB output, which is very good."
For the JL F113, keep in mind 1 foot vs 2 meters is a 16dB difference, but I'll chalk this one up that he didn't measure the sub correctly as we know the F113 is actually a pretty great performer.

Quote:
At 20 Hz, 100 dB, and 1 foot, distortion was 12.3%. This is quite excellent.
Nothing shows bias more than the KEN KREISEL DXD-12012's review

Quote:
At 15 Hz and 90 dB output, THD+N was 8%. This is really very good for 15 Hz
Notice it is 90dB instead of 100dB? Because it probably can't even hit 100dB. If it can, distortion is almost certainly over 100%.

Quote:
At 20 Hz and 97 dB, whoa ! ! ! Less than 1% THD+N
Notice it is 97dB? Why not 100dB like the rest of your measurements? Most likely because at 100dB the distortion number is much higher. All it takes is 1-2dB to make THD skyrocket.

Quote:
Try 0.7% THD+N at 25 Hz and 98 dB with most subwoofers, and you will see a similar number, but the decimal point will be moved one number to the right.
Notice it is 98dB now?

Quote:
30 Hz, 101 dB, 0.6% distortion? No problem with the KREISEL. No wonder movie and music studios use this subwoofer.
Now at 30Hz he finally measures it at 100dB (100.67dB to be exact)

And finally, the JL F212

Quote:
Note that the f212 (and this is just one subwoofer operating), has 5% THD+N or less at all frequencies from about 13 Hz on up. That is really incredible performance.
And all these subwoofers cost more than the Submersive, do not measure as well, yet the Submersive gets little praise.

And this is probably why many ID companies don't want their subs reviewed.
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While I think it is awesome that the SubM finally got a pro review, the review, in my opinion, was quite unfair in a way. Mark has subtlely pointed out in the above posts, but I feel it deserves more attention. The reviewer raved the Paradigm Sub2's measurements, calling it "a landmark result", yet the Submersive beat the Paradigm's "landmark result" in every frequency, and only gets a "very good" from the reviewer.

For the DD18+, the reviewer writes



For the SubM, the reviewer writes



For the JL F113, keep in mind 1 foot vs 2 meters is a 16dB difference, but I'll chalk this one up that he didn't measure the sub correctly as we know the F113 is actually a pretty great performer.



Nothing shows bias more than the KEN KREISEL DXD-12012's review



Notice it is 90dB instead of 100dB? Because it probably can't even hit 100dB. If it can, distortion is almost certainly over 100%.



Notice it is 97dB? Why not 100dB like the rest of your measurements? Most likely because at 100dB the distortion number is much higher. All it takes is 1-2dB to make THD skyrocket.



Notice it is 98dB now?



Now at 30Hz he finally measures it at 100dB (100.67dB to be exact)

And finally, the JL F212



And all these subwoofers cost more than the Submersive, do not measure as well, yet the Submersive gets little praise.

And this is probably why many ID companies don't want their subs reviewed.
Was it the same reviewer for all of these subs and the Submersive sub?
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post #10100 of 10105 Old Yesterday, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
Was it the same reviewer for all of these subs and the Submersive sub?
It was the same reviewer. Mark posted the links to 8 other subs that reviewer did in the previous post, and I just provided the context in those links.
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post #10101 of 10105 Old Today, 08:24 AM
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It was the same reviewer. Mark posted the links to 8 other subs that reviewer did in the previous post, and I just provided the context in those links.
Well, then you bring up a very good point! Unfortunately, there probably is some worry from the standpoint of the reviewer, that they must give such overwhelming praise for expensive pieces of gear like the Paradigm Sub 2, JL subs, etc. Perhaps there is a concern that if it is not given for such high end products, that they may not get send any other products from them in the future to review. On the other hand, Seaton Sound is internet direct, with mainly just a forum to order products through. So a reviewer may think that Mark must be grateful to just have a review. This is really unfortunate, because, as you have said, the Submersive seems to outperform the much more expensive Paradigm sub in terms of distortion measurements. Extrapolating the results of the measurements in the review with more thorough measurements of the Paradigm Sub 2 on data-bass, we can convince ourselves that the Submersive has exceptional performance for a sealed sub at this price.

We are seeing a shifting away from the stigma (a little bit) of reviewing giving unbiased praise of exceptional internet direct products, but as we see here it is not always the case. I'm happy to see measurements confirming that the Submersive does measure as we all expect it would. Now that it has been measured I think more people might actually give the Submersive a shot. I have a very large space (nearly 6000 cubic feet) and was considering a pair of SVS PB 13 ultras to pressurize it. I am thinking about the possiblility of Submersives now.
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Originally Posted by bcodemz View Post
It was the same reviewer. Mark posted the links to 8 other subs that reviewer did in the previous post, and I just provided the context in those links.
Well, then you bring up a very good point! Unfortunately, there probably is some worry from the standpoint of the reviewer, that they must give such overwhelming praise for expensive pieces of gear like the Paradigm Sub 2, JL subs, etc. Perhaps there is a concern that if it is not given for such high end products, that they may not get send any other products from them in the future to review. On the other hand, Seaton Sound is internet direct, with mainly just a forum to order products through. So a reviewer may think that Mark must be grateful to just have a review. This is really unfortunate, because, as you have said, the Submersive seems to outperform the much more expensive Paradigm sub in terms of distortion measurements. Extrapolating the results of the measurements in the review with more thorough measurements of the Paradigm Sub 2 on data-bass, we can convince ourselves that the Submersive has exceptional performance for a sealed sub at this price.

We are seeing a shifting away from the stigma (a little bit) of reviewing giving unbiased praise of exceptional internet direct products, but as we see here it is not always the case. I'm happy to see measurements confirming that the Submersive does measure as we all expect it would. Now that it has been measured I think more people might actually give the Submersive a shot. I have a very large space (nearly 6000 cubic feet) and was considering a pair of SVS PB 13 ultras to pressurize it. I am thinking about the possibility of Submersives now.
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I am thinking about the possiblility of Submersives now.
Objective data is nice. I don't have any measurements to post, but my subjective opinion is this sub is awesome.
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'Congrats on the review Mark. One comment -- they make it sound like you can't get it in different finishes in their "would like to see" section (would like to see "a selection of wood veneers"), despite saying it comes in different colors right below. What do they mean? You offer maple and cherry in different stains and oak in straight black...what do they want from you, lol? I'd call that a "selection" of wood veneers....
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'Congrats on the review Mark. One comment -- they make it sound like you can't get it in different finishes in their "would like to see" section (would like to see "a selection of wood veneers"), despite saying it comes in different colors right below. What do they mean? You offer maple and cherry in different stains and oak in straight black...what do they want from you, lol? I'd call that a "selection" of wood veneers....
Right?

Submersive finish options:
Black Oak
Black Maple
Maple veneer (+$100)
Espresso stained cherry veneer (+$200)
Red stained cherry veneer (+$200)
Vintage cherry veneer (+$200)
Rosenut/red stained walnut veneer (+$300)

Other subwoofers reviewed and their options -
Paradigm Sub 2: cherry, black ash, and piano black
Velodyne DD-18+: ebony gloss, satin cherry, and walnut
JL F113: black gloss
JL F212: black gloss
Kreisel DXD-12012: black gloss

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