Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 344 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 472Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-10-2016, 10:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
DaveyMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 609
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 482 Post(s)
Liked: 80
I just received three of these and they look awesome, packaged well, no complaints. I'll be going through the tedium of setting up, REW, time aligning, Dirac Live, etc. this Saturday.


Here's the deal though. I have L Shaped room.


Two Masters and one slave.


Right now I have one HSU sub by TV that you cant see in the picture. But you can imagine where it's at. Its directly across from MLP which is left side of couch in picture.


Then second hsu sub is all the way on the back right corner of room as you are looking at picture, where there is book case.


There are no dips, everything is great. (after rew). So two subs are working great.


My idea was to add third sub directly behind MLP (which again is on left side of couch as you are looking at picture). So that's why I updgraded to these.


But since I have to run master/slave combo on that back wall: The nearfield sub behind MLP -and the one about 10 feet away in back corner - they will on same DELAY. ** Do you think this will cause problems?? Nearfield sub sound will get to me quicker than the one that is 10 feet away... you can't have separate delays on master/slave.


Question simplified - how screwy will it be to have a master/slave where one is nearfield and one is 10+ feet away? Keeping in mind they both have to be on exact same delay.
DaveyMac is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-10-2016, 11:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jkasanic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Question simplified - how screwy will it be to have a master/slave where one is nearfield and one is 10+ feet away? Keeping in mind they both have to be on exact same delay.
I believe Mark has commented on this in the past as I'm dealing with a similar issue in my room. Sometimes, time-aligning subs works perfectly and other times not. The only way to know for sure is to measure with REW or some other similar means. Just because subs are equidistant from MLP doesn't mean an individual delay couldn't improve the response. Likewise, just because they're not equidistant doesn't mean they need separate delays.

I just went through an exercise in my room where XT32 set my larger 18" subs upfront to 14.7' and a 12" sub directly behind MLP to 5.5'. Guess which FR looked best when I measured the combined response...ironically, the one with no delay between them and guess which looked the worst...well, see for yourself:

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sub delay.jpg
Views:	1371
Size:	205.4 KB
ID:	1244225  
k1n3t1k likes this.

Last edited by jkasanic; 02-10-2016 at 11:36 AM.
jkasanic is offline  
Old 02-12-2016, 02:17 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Seaton F2 or F18

I have a large multi use room (15' ceilings, 30 by 40). Currently using SVS PB 13.

Wondering if an upgrade to Seatons would be worthwhile? What would be the differing between the F2 master slave, and the F18 master slave? I could even go with 2 F18's on each side at the front of the room, if their would be a noticeable increase in quality base.
tusker2 is offline  
Old 02-13-2016, 09:56 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
I just received three of these and they look awesome, packaged well, no complaints. I'll be going through the tedium of setting up, REW, time aligning, Dirac Live, etc. this Saturday.


Here's the deal though. I have L Shaped room.


Two Masters and one slave.


Right now I have one HSU sub by TV that you cant see in the picture. But you can imagine where it's at. Its directly across from MLP which is left side of couch in picture.


Then second hsu sub is all the way on the back right corner of room as you are looking at picture, where there is book case.


There are no dips, everything is great. (after rew). So two subs are working great.


My idea was to add third sub directly behind MLP (which again is on left side of couch as you are looking at picture). So that's why I updgraded to these.


But since I have to run master/slave combo on that back wall: The nearfield sub behind MLP -and the one about 10 feet away in back corner - they will on same DELAY. ** Do you think this will cause problems?? Nearfield sub sound will get to me quicker than the one that is 10 feet away... you can't have separate delays on master/slave.


Question simplified - how screwy will it be to have a master/slave where one is nearfield and one is 10+ feet away? Keeping in mind they both have to be on exact same delay.
I had my master slave set up in a similar fashion for a bit, and it sounded good but i could definitely tell they didnt quite blend as well due to the varying difference in delay. Since sound travels roughly 1100ft/sec, you would ideally want about a 10ms delay on the sub if it is 10ft closer than your second sub; however, you cannot really set a separate delay between a master & slave...only between two powered/master subs. All you can do is test it out and see how it sounds to you, and try to get them as close to equidistant as possible. Would be nice to have the ability to set a delay between a master and its slave though.
audnutz is offline  
Old 02-13-2016, 10:01 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by tusker2 View Post
I have a large multi use room (15' ceilings, 30 by 40). Currently using SVS PB 13.

Wondering if an upgrade to Seatons would be worthwhile? What would be the differing between the F2 master slave, and the F18 master slave? I could even go with 2 F18's on each side at the front of the room, if their would be a noticeable increase in quality base.
From what i understand, the HP/F2 are more capable than the F18 above 35hz, and the F18 has slightly less distortion than the HP/F2 below 25hz (relatively). I dont believe the F18 digs any deeper than the HP/F2, its main benefit is the fact that it can power 3 slave units off one master unit (HP/F2 powers 1 slave unit off that amp due to the dual 15 woofers vs single 18).

I havent heard the SVSPB13, but people have claimed that they noticed a nice improvement going from the PB13 to the submersive.
jjackkrash likes this.
audnutz is offline  
Old 02-13-2016, 11:34 AM
Senior Member
 
Modicen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: R.I.
Posts: 217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by audnutz View Post
From what i understand, the HP/F2 are more capable than the F18 above 35hz, and the F18 has slightly less distortion than the HP/F2 below 25hz (relatively). I dont believe the F18 digs any deeper than the HP/F2, its main benefit is the fact that it can power 3 slave units off one master unit (HP/F2 powers 1 slave unit off that amp due to the dual 15 woofers vs single 18).

I havent heard the SVSPB13, but people have claimed that they noticed a nice improvement going from the PB13 to the submersive.
There is no comparison between the two. Subversive destroys it in sq and output. I have a Pb 13 ultra that has been sitting dormant for the past year and a half since getting my submersive. The submersive is so good that I got another and now have two. Do not get me wrong, the Svs is also a killer sub, just not in the same league.
DRC3 likes this.
Modicen is offline  
Old 02-13-2016, 11:44 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Thanks for the input. I didnt want to make that statement w/o actually having heard the PB13 ultra. Im glad to hear you've had firsthand experience with them both. I too have a master and slave HP. Thinking about adding 2 more but not sure what direction is best for me to go in (HP/F2/F18)....most likely is a very common question people will have. I most likely will be either going with the HP or F2 option.
audnutz is offline  
Old 02-18-2016, 03:02 PM
Senior Member
 
drpete12's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Great news today...Got tracking number for my 3 F18's. Once its all setup I will post pics. Cant wait
Magibeg, jjackkrash, DRC3 and 1 others like this.
drpete12 is offline  
Old 02-18-2016, 06:28 PM
Senior Member
 
Magibeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 359
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpete12 View Post
Great news today...Got tracking number for my 3 F18's. Once its all setup I will post pics. Cant wait
Oooh i'm jealous! I'll live through you until the Canadian dollar improves lol
DRC3 likes this.
Magibeg is offline  
Old 02-19-2016, 08:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
thxman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: North TX
Posts: 1,711
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Mark was ready to ship my 4 F18s (2 slaves) but I am probably the only fool to ask him to wait for shipment. Not that I don't want them, I just need time to get ready to accept them. I also spoke to Mark in person for the 1st time today. Really nice guy to speak with.
Magibeg and NextLevel217 like this.
thxman is online now  
Old 02-20-2016, 04:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 737 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Seems some have received their F18s. Where's all the user feedback/impressions?!
jjackkrash and turbojohngt like this.

Last edited by Kain; 02-20-2016 at 11:11 AM.
Kain is offline  
Old 02-20-2016, 06:34 PM
Senior Member
 
Magibeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 359
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Seems some have received their F18s. Where's all the user feedback/impressions?!
It seems that Seaton is cursed. Unlike with other companies when individuals by Seaton they seem to drop off the face of the earth, lost in an endless sea of high quality sound most likely.
DRC3 and NextLevel217 like this.
Magibeg is offline  
Old 02-20-2016, 06:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jjackkrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,795
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 555 Post(s)
Liked: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
It seems that Seaton is cursed. Unlike with other companies when individuals by Seaton they seem to drop off the face of the earth, lost in an endless sea of high quality sound most likely.
Or recovering from back surgery after moving 4 150 lbs. subs all over the house looking for best placement.
sandbagger and NextLevel217 like this.
jjackkrash is online now  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:24 AM
Member
 
KASOFO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Seems some have received their F18s. Where's all the user feedback/impressions?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
It seems that Seaton is cursed. Unlike with other companies when individuals by Seaton they seem to drop off the face of the earth, lost in an endless sea of high quality sound most likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Or recovering from back surgery after moving 4 150 lbs. subs all over the house looking for best placement.
My system setup is below and as you can see I have an F2+ with an F2 slave both of which I picked up in January. They are the BEST investment I have ever made in my system. Previously I had multiple original Sunfire Signature subs (3) which for their footprint can put out some serious bass but there is simply no comparison. The low end PLUS mid-bass thump is freaking amazing and makes me grin like the cat who ate the canary every time I fire them up. They are the off the rails for both music and HT. I had a friend of mine over last week who is a musician and we were watching "The Concert for George" at pretty much reference levels and his quote was "it is truly sonically better than being there". The best endorsement, although perhaps not from such a trained ear, came from my wife the first time I fired the system up with my F2's integrated. I had put in The Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" Blu-Ray playing the "Boys of Summer" and when the drums kick in at about the seven second mark of the song she looks at me, eyes slightly squinted, and I she mouthed "Really Keith?" and proceeded to exit the man cave, presumably to secure the plates upstairs! Thank you Seaton F2's and welcome to the family!

Keith
Sam S, craig john, Modicen and 3 others like this.

Marantz 7702MKII Processor
B & K 200.7 Amp and Emotiva XPA-3 Amp
Oppo 103 BDP-Blu-Ray, Monster 5100MKII Power Cond.
Def-Tech Mythos St-L Towers L+R, Def-Tech CD8080-HD Center, Def-Tech SR8080-BP Surrounds (4)
Seaton Submersive F2+ and F2 Slave Subs
KASOFO is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 03:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 737 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Just a question that has me wondering:

Does the F18 offer the extremely clean, "fast", and tight bass of the 15" SubMersive? Just wondering if the 18" driver is "sloppier" than the 15" SubMersive driver in favor of more low-end output?
Kain is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 02:59 PM
Member
 
DRC3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Just a question that has me wondering:

Does the F18 offer the extremely clean, "fast", and tight bass of the 15" SubMersive? Just wondering if the 18" driver is "sloppier" than the 15" SubMersive driver in favor of more low-end output?
I wondered the same thing Kain, so I asked Mark a couple of weeks back. He explained that the fast, clean, and tight response of the HP/F2 was the benchmark for the F18 driver.

Mark will probably respond, but he seemed very impressed with the result. I think a couple of the owner reviews in this and the Seaton Forum express the same sentiment.

Looking forward to seeing and hearing them at Axpona.
Goalline and NextLevel217 like this.
DRC3 is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 02:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 737 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRC3 View Post
I wondered the same thing Kain, so I asked Mark a couple of weeks back. He explained that the fast, clean, and tight response of the HP/F2 was the benchmark for the F18 driver.

Mark will probably respond, but he seemed very impressed with the result. I think a couple of the owner reviews in this and the Seaton Forum express the same sentiment.

Looking forward to seeing and hearing them at Axpona.
Thanks. Hope Mark chimes in.
Kain is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 06:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jjackkrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,795
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 555 Post(s)
Liked: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Just a question that has me wondering:

Does the F18 offer the extremely clean, "fast", and tight bass of the 15" SubMersive? Just wondering if the 18" driver is "sloppier" than the 15" SubMersive driver in favor of more low-end output?
Caveat: I have not heard the F18 yet.

That said, I've been a Seaton customer for a while and have talked with Mark on more than a few occasions and I am confident he wouldn't let a $2k sub leave his facility if it wasn't an awesome performer. No way its "sloppy." In previous posts, Mark suggested that the F18 will perform on par with an HP+, with a slight advantage to the F18 on the lowest frequencies and a slight advantage to the HP+ above 20 - 30 Hz (IIRC). I would personally consider adding an F18 Master/Slave to complement my HP+ Master/Slave, but I have other priorities to fill first (like 4k and Atmos). Right now bass, with my HP+, is the strongest part of my system.
DRC3 and DaveyMac like this.
jjackkrash is online now  
Old 03-07-2016, 08:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
DaveyMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 609
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 482 Post(s)
Liked: 80
I haven't even had time to get my new F18's dialed into my room yet.


Even though they are just basically plugged in right now, without Dirac Live or any sort of correction being properly applied to everything - they absolutely rock.


They are definitely not sloppy. I've been listening to all sorts of bass intensive music from Pink Floyd to Dance, EDM, Dubstep, etc.


And what I really like, is in movies and TV, I'm hearing all kinds of stuff I didn't hear before. They are playing VERY low. I don't know how I can properly explain how cool something as simple as a truck passing by in a movie scene, or just a door shutting sounds - but it sounds crazy awesome.


I'm 'feeling' things from movies that I never even knew was possible. I'm assuming this must be the lower frequencies I've never experienced.


I put in Mad Max the other night to check out the bass for a second... and I ended up watching the whole damn movie again. It's just way too cool sounding on these subs. And I had two ported 15s before, so it's not like I had crap subs.


Anyway I'll give a proper review once I get them dialed in properly. Going out of town again tomorrow, so it will be a minute.
audnutz likes this.
DaveyMac is offline  
Old 03-07-2016, 08:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 5
I don't believe I've read anything that says that the F18 digs deeper than the HP/F2, so I'm not sure. I think its main benefit is that 3 slave units can be powered off of one master amplified unit (HP/F2 powers 1 slave unit off that amp due to the dual 15 woofers vs single 18).

Here is the quote from Mark (post #10219) - "The short version sums up with a 1:1 comparison having the SubMersive HP/F2 being capable of a little louder overall playback on real material due to greater headroom/efficiency above ~35Hz. Below ~25Hz the F18 has slightly lower distortion and a little more clean headroom (but less advantage here than the HP/F2 has >35Hz). The biggest benefit of the F18 other than a different size/form factor is the ability to expand a single F18+ into 3-4 18" subwoofers placed any way you like."

I have a master/slave HP setup and wanted to move to a 4-sub setup. I contemplated for 3 months (since mid December) on whether to add 2 F18s, 2 HPs, 2 F2s or sell my HPs and add some combination of 4 master/slave F18s. I ultimately decided to add a master/slave F2 to the mix (got a great deal on them!) and I really believe that was the best thing for me.

My room is 2200 cuft, and my distortion levels were already really low with 2 subs (even lower now since adding the F2s). Personally, I prefer having all HP/F2s or having all F18s since the subs do differ in performance/capabilities, so as you really start to push them you will reach their differing limits at varying frequencies.

If I was to start over and size/form factor was equal, I'd go with the HPs/F2s if I knew I was going with 1-2 subs, if I knew it was going with 3-4 subs then it would be a toss up and depend on the current pricing/deals that are available on the HP/F2 and F18s, and if I knew I was going with more than 4 subs then I'd likely go with the F18s, which is what I'd do if I had a really large room and knew I'd utilize the increased SPL output from the additional subs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doubling the number of subs (and power) may yield an additional +6dB (let's just say +6dB although I know the true gain/loss varies throughout the frequency range). Therefore, you will get the same increase/benefit when going from 1 to 2 (+6dB), as you do when you go from 2 to 4 (+6dB) and from 4 to 8 (+6dB); which really starts to create a steep cost/benefit curve. I realize many want/have more than 4 subs (i.e. sub stacks) because, let's face it, tall sub stacks are impressive and look cool! That's just not me...at least not yet anyway!

As far as my 4-sub setup goes, i am really happy with the results. I was able to get an F2 in each front corner (with some work and dedication!) and get an HP in each back corner. I feel like it is as good as it will get for me. Although I feel that adding a 2nd sub made more of a difference, I will say that the 2 additional subs filled the remaining gap, and now I feel it has a complete and seamless sound. (1 sub got me to 30%, 2 subs got me to 70%, and 4 subs got me to 100%). Although my REW measurements were pretty good with 2 subs, i say adding the 2 F2s provides me more of a benefit than even what shows up on the REW measurements.

Bottom line - All the Seaton subs are awesome, and I look forward to hearing more F18 reviews soon, and hopefully even some comparisons from those that have/had HPs/F2s!

Last edited by audnutz; 03-07-2016 at 01:56 PM.
audnutz is offline  
Old 03-11-2016, 01:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thxman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: North TX
Posts: 1,711
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Thank you Mark. LOL to my JL Audio Sub. :P


thxman is online now  
Old 03-11-2016, 02:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thxman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: North TX
Posts: 1,711
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Also, huge thanks Mark for the great packaging. I am not very strong but reasonable effort and a dolly/hand truck I can move them around the house, un-box and re-box all by myself. Expectations far exceeded and I have only have listened to 1.
thxman is online now  
Old 03-11-2016, 03:42 PM
Senior Member
 
Ediddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by thxman View Post
Also, huge thanks Mark for the great packaging. I am not very strong but reasonable effort and a dolly/hand truck I can move them around the house, un-box and re-box all by myself. Expectations far exceeded and I have only have listened to 1.
Congrats! How many did you get? I am gonna add two additional subs and I have to think about the F18s or two more SubMersives. I'm leaning towards the SubMersives.

(2) GoldenEar Triton 1s, GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL, (4) GoldenEar HTR 7000, Dual Seaton Sumbersive HP (Master / Slave), Sony VPL 55es, Dalite 119 inch UTC, Darby Darblet, Oppo 103, Integra 80.3, Emotiva XPR 2, Emotiva XPA 5, Panamax 5102, Harmony Elite.
Ediddy is offline  
Old 03-13-2016, 01:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 737 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ediddy View Post
Congrats! How many did you get? I am gonna add two additional subs and I have to think about the F18s or two more SubMersives. I'm leaning towards the SubMersives.
Based on his build thread linked in this signature, he'll be using two Masters and two Slaves.
Kain is offline  
Old 03-13-2016, 04:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,442
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 401 Post(s)
Liked: 983
Quote:
Originally Posted by audnutz View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doubling the number of subs (and power) may yield an additional +6dB (let's just say +6dB although I know the true gain/loss varies throughout the frequency range). Therefore, you will get the same increase/benefit when going from 1 to 2 (+6dB), as you do when you go from 2 to 4 (+6dB) and from 4 to 8 (+6dB); which really starts to create a steep cost/benefit curve. I realize many want/have more than 4 subs (i.e. sub stacks) because, let's face it, tall sub stacks are impressive and look cool! That's just not me...at least not yet anyway!
You are correct on the general math of adding subwoofers and SPL gain. What I feel is often under-appreciated is the subjective effect of "a few dB louder" when we are talking about playback levels and subwoofer energy.

One factor at play is that due to our hearing sensitivity at lower frequencies, it does take 6-12dB to sound a lot louder *at relatively modest levels*. Despite our insensitivity at low sound pressure levels, our ears are actually very reactive to low frequencies once we get into the range of audibility. If trying to see this in the commonly posted hearing sensitivity curves below, this is evident by the spacing between each curve, where each curve marks loudness changes comparable 10dB at 1kHz (10 PHONS). If the curves are less than 10dB apart, that means it takes less increase in SPL to sound louder, where +6dB SPL change at 20Hz might subjectively sound like turning some music up 10dB.



Having run many show demos where we play the same material over and over in the same room for 3-4 days, I and many others have witnessed how sensitive we get to low frequency energy as the volume creeps ever higher. Depending on how strong you have the subs set, when playback at a calibrated -10 to -5 dB main volume setting, 3-5dB can sound MUCH louder, scarier and more exciting. As you get closer to 0dB, even 2dB can be readily noticeable and more intense. This is where the benefits of adding even a 3rd sub can be readily apparent.

Of course if you pull out a microphone like the UMIK-1 and REW or an OmniMic system you can check you have chosen complimentary locations and that all of the subwoofers are working in concert and not fighting each other at the listening area. In this case, we find that adding additional subwoofers in the right locations can yield 4-15dB gains over specific frequency ranges. These gains before EQ/room correction subjectively add detail to the system and give you "more sound" when playing the same scene as you aren't missing that content or aren't pushing the system overly hard with scenes that happen to have a lot of information in that range.

Key points of my rambling above... 3-6dB can be a BIG increase subjectively once you are at higher playback levels, and you can easily get big gains over select frequency ranges by adding one more sub in the right location which can be result in much bigger real word gains than the simple addition might suggest.
audiofan1 and DRC3 like this.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is offline  
Old 03-14-2016, 05:54 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Yes, absolutely. I reviewed that same chart a couple of months ago, which also sort of helped me to justify adding 2 more subs! 8) I dont think it is a point that is communicated very often. I was more/less trying to pointing out the steeper the cost vs benefit curve becomes as you add subs (same gain every time you double). In order to be able to really utilize the additional output of 4+ submersives, i figure i'd likely need a combination of a very large space to pressurize as well as high output speakers that can match the extreme subwoofer output or else the rest of the system wouldn't keep up and would be overpowered (literally and figuratively). I initially decided to add 2 more submersives for the room response benefits, but after i saw that chart it helped me to feel a little better knowing that the additional SPL gain is more noticeable/beneficial than what it'd be at higher frequencies since it's not a uniform gain throughout the entire frequency range. Plus, as you mentioned, at some frequencies you may gain much more than 6dB gain (and of course at some frequencies you may gain less or even lose some output).

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/eqloud.html I'm curious though how many dB hot others are running their subs before they find that the subs begin to overtake the rest of the system/channels. For movies, I am currently only running between 0dB-2dB hot for a good overall balance, so ill need to do some experimenting to see how much more i can go before it degrades the playback experience.

Last edited by audnutz; 03-14-2016 at 07:37 AM.
audnutz is offline  
Old 03-14-2016, 07:06 AM
Advanced Member
 
Skrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 803
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked: 72
To Mark and the forum,

Currently I am running a SubM HP+ Master/Slave (with the older design 4kW amp) in my front corners. Integration is excellent in the MLP, and honestly - I feel like I have plenty of DBs. However, back row audio is not as ideal. The Bass comes in peaks and valleys (and is a bit boomy at times). See my link below to my system for more details.

So -- I am thinking that I will add three wall treatments across the back wall (probably GIK Monster Traps).

After that -- if I wanted to add another master-slave setup (to cover the back corners) -- should I use a set of Seaton SubM or perhaps the F18? Have people been successfully marrying the SubM HP+ with the F18? Also - how do you integrate the older 4kW amps with the newer? I recall reading from Mark that there is a bit more base level delay in the newer amps that has to be compensated for.

Thanks!
Skrill is offline  
Old 03-14-2016, 01:19 PM
Member
 
johnnygrandis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 129
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by audnutz View Post
Yes, absolutely. I reviewed that same chart a couple of months ago, which also sort of helped me to justify adding 2 more subs! 8) I dont think it is a point that is communicated very often. I was more/less trying to pointing out the steeper the cost vs benefit curve becomes as you add subs (same gain every time you double). In order to be able to really utilize the additional output of 4+ submersives, i figure i'd likely need a combination of a very large space to pressurize as well as high output speakers that can match the extreme subwoofer output or else the rest of the system wouldn't keep up and would be overpowered (literally and figuratively). I initially decided to add 2 more submersives for the room response benefits, but after i saw that chart it helped me to feel a little better knowing that the additional SPL gain is more noticeable/beneficial than what it'd be at higher frequencies since it's not a uniform gain throughout the entire frequency range. Plus, as you mentioned, at some frequencies you may gain much more than 6dB gain (and of course at some frequencies you may gain less or even lose some output).

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/eqloud.html I'm curious though how many dB hot others are running their subs before they find that the subs begin to overtake the rest of the system/channels. For movies, I am currently only running between 0dB-2dB hot for a good overall balance, so ill need to do some experimenting to see how much more i can go before it degrades the playback experience.
When the rest of the system is capable of playing near ref volume without distortion and stress i find myself only needing the subs +2db hot. With my other setup this wasn't possible so i was always trying to run my subwoofer 5-8db hot without getting the right balance. I have six 12" inch driver in a 20m2 room.





GOOD TIMES:

Listening Preference
johnnygrandis is offline  
Old 03-16-2016, 03:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,442
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 401 Post(s)
Liked: 983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
To Mark and the forum,

Currently I am running a SubM HP+ Master/Slave (with the older design 4kW amp) in my front corners. Integration is excellent in the MLP, and honestly - I feel like I have plenty of DBs. However, back row audio is not as ideal. The Bass comes in peaks and valleys (and is a bit boomy at times). See my link below to my system for more details.

So -- I am thinking that I will add three wall treatments across the back wall (probably GIK Monster Traps).

After that -- if I wanted to add another master-slave setup (to cover the back corners) -- should I use a set of Seaton SubM or perhaps the F18? Have people been successfully marrying the SubM HP+ with the F18? Also - how do you integrate the older 4kW amps with the newer? I recall reading from Mark that there is a bit more base level delay in the newer amps that has to be compensated for.

Thanks!
For any situation of placing subwoofers front and rear I'll recommend you can get dramatically better results when you can actually see what is going on when you move subs and make adjustments. This is why we now stock the UMIK-1 measurement microphones. With subs front and rear, mixing the F18 & original HP/HP+ can work just fine. It's a little easier if the F18 is the closer sub (usually the rear), else you will prefer to have a delay adjustment available. The new HP+ and F18 amplifiers have a knob which allows delay adjustment. Of course the amplifier can only ADD delay, so this is only useful if it is available on the sub that needs some delay, which will be the closer of the 2 subwoofer groupings. MiniDSP's new 2x4HD unit is still under $200 and adds more processing capability while allowing more delay than you'll ever need (80ms on each output) where the first generation 2x4 maxed out at ~7.5ms. I believe they may also have a new balanced version following the new 2x4HD.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is offline  
Old 03-16-2016, 05:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,442
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 401 Post(s)
Liked: 983
BTW, with Axpona now less than a month away we've been having some fun staging and getting the gear ready to head to the show, which always makes for some fun photo opportunities :





Sorry guys. While all six of the above units will be running in our demo room at Axpona, the display units are already sold.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 

Tags
Seaton Sound , Velodyne Dd 15 Digital Drive Subwoofer 15 Inch Gloss Black , Velodyne , Speaker Systems , New Pac Sni 1 Ground Loop Signal Isolator
taboola here
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off