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post #2161 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Quick question guys...... does anyone know what the frequency of the subwoofer test tone for setting the levels is on an Onkyo 805 ? And/or if you can tell me how many dbs should I add for correction to my analog Radio Shack SPL meter.

Reason I ask is because I am setting my Submersive + 4-5db and it still sounds like its low.

James, Mark's comments above are obviously what you should follow; I'll be doing this ASA I receive the Audio Toolkit dvd.

In the meantime, I do use the test tones in my 805 (after eqing a pretty flat FR via Audessey + SMS-1), and with the main speakers at 75 dB I find that ~77-78 dB for the sub is about right for me. The LFE tracks on the movies that have them are magnificent!
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post #2162 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Quick question guys...... does anyone know what the frequency of the subwoofer test tone for setting the levels is on an Onkyo 805 ? And/or if you can tell me how many dbs should I add for correction to my analog Radio Shack SPL meter.

Reason I ask is because I am setting my Submersive + 4-5db and it still sounds like its low.

James, are you using the Audyssey with your 805? If so, in my experience with Audyssey in my 885, I have had to boost my LFE channel by 10db over what Audyssey sets. Otherwise, Audyssey completely guts my bass. Don't be afraid of turning up the level to suit your taste(assuming you are not sitting in a null spot)
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post #2163 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

Very nice theater, craig.



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In that pic, it looks like the Fathom is almost sulking at being replaced.




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post #2164 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

How's Iron Man?

It sounds spectacular to me, but I will be interested in *your* comments, (as well as Scott, Ryan and Dennis's), when you come over on Thursday.

For the *rest* of the forum, we have a small Central PA HT group. We get together from time to time and check out each other's theater's. It's a real learning experience for me since all the guys are very knowledgeable, but with different core "specialties". pepar, is our audio, room treatments and Audyssey expert. Ryan is our video calibration specialist; he owns a bunch of Sencore video calibration equipment, and knows how to use it. Scott is a DIY guy and is *very* knowledgeable about speaker and subwoofer building theory and practice. Dennis is in the process of building his HT, but he is a drummer and musician, so he brings a unique perspective to our group.

I am looking forward to hosting the group this Thursday evening so they can check out the Submersives. Hopefully, you'll hear some impressions from them, afterward.

Craig

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post #2165 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

We get together from time to time and check out each other's theater's. It's a real learning experience

It's usually expensive, too,


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post #2166 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

i'm thinking that large powerful subs will run afoul of cap and trade eventually.

:d

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I started watching the 2nd disc of a Visions of Italy dvd from Netflix and the Intro has organ music with really DEEP bass notes. I was thinking that would sound magestic with a Submersive or two. Sigh, one of these days my credit cards will be paid off and I can get them.
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post #2168 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

It sounds spectacular to me, but I will be interested in *your* comments, (as well as Scott, Ryan and Dennis's), when you come over on Thursday.

For the *rest* of the forum, we have a small Central PA HT group. We get together from time to time and check out each other's theater's. It's a real learning experience for me since all the guys are very knowledgeable, but with different core "specialties". pepar, is our audio, room treatments and Audyssey expert. Ryan is our video calibration specialist; he owns a bunch of Sencore video calibration equipment, and knows how to use it. Scott is a DIY guy and is *very* knowledgeable about speaker and subwoofer building theory and practice. Dennis is in the process of building his HT, but he is a drummer and musician, so he brings a unique perspective to our group.

I am looking forward to hosting the group this Thursday evening so they can check out the Submersives. Hopefully, you'll hear some impressions from them, afterward.

Craig

Sounds like great fun; look forward to hearing your reports.
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post #2169 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

James, Mark's comments above are obviously what you should follow; I'll be doing this ASA I receive the Audio Toolkit dvd.

In the meantime, I do use the test tones in my 805 (after eqing a pretty flat FR via Audessey + SMS-1), and with the main speakers at 75 dB I find that ~77-78 dB for the sub is about right for me. The LFE tracks on the movies that have them are magnificent!


This is a total noob question. In all the years ive been into HT ive always set the speaker levels around whatever SPL the tones put out, your response made me think, hmmm , what if I bump up the SPL to 75db for each speaker rather then use whatever SPL the tone happens to be at.

What is the proper way to do this ? Just for the heck of it I set em all to 75db and the Submersive to ~80db


So again, what is the proper way to do this? Gosh, you'd figure id have though of this before considering all the years ive had this hobby.
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post #2170 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatawan View Post

James, are you using the Audyssey with your 805? If so, in my experience with Audyssey in my 885, I have had to boost my LFE channel by 10db over what Audyssey sets. Otherwise, Audyssey completely guts my bass. Don't be afraid of turning up the level to suit your taste(assuming you are not sitting in a null spot)

Yes I use it, 10db is quite a jump. Id say on average (ive had the 805 a ~year)
on average I usually bump the subwoofer up around 5db or so. That was while I had my MFW-15 , for the Submersive it does not seem to be enough. But then again , I had the MFW-15 crossed at 120hz the entire year I owned it , now the Submersive is at 80hz.
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post #2171 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

This is a total noob question. In all the years ive been into HT ive always set the speaker levels around whatever SPL the tones put out, your response made me think, hmmm , what if I bump up the SPL to 75db for each speaker rather then use whatever SPL the tone happens to be at.

What is the proper way to do this ? Just for the heck of it I set em all to 75db and the Submersive to ~80db


So again, what is the proper way to do this? Gosh, you'd figure id have though of this before considering all the years ive had this hobby.

Other more experienced persons may jump in, but as you have done, I use the AVR trim to set my main speakers to 75 dB after running Audyssey, and the sub a few dB above this to taste, as you have done. As I understand it, Audyssey sets the speaker levels to match the speakers relative to one another, but not on an absolute basis. In my case, after running Audyssey I typically have to increase the trims in the Onk 805 about 3 to 4 dB each to bring them up to 75. (I also set my surrounds 2 to 3 dB above 75, just because I like to emphasize the surround effects.)

And like many here, I am in love with my SubMersive! It brings authority to the LFE to so much a greater degree than I've experienced before. My room is only ~ 2000 cu ft, so you guys can imagine what it does in this medium/small room. [The gain on my SubM is at -14 dB, the trim in the 805 AVR -8 (of a range from -15 to +15), and the volume level on the SMS-1 is at 30 (scale is 0 to 99).]
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post #2172 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 07:05 PM
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Of standard square or rectangular ,ported or sealed subwoofers, there cannot be more than a few better sounding subwoofers than the Submersive on this planet we live on called Earth. I can say for sure that I have not heard one of them yet. Ok, I need to get off the bragging bus.
Sorry guys.
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post #2173 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post


And like many here, I am in love with my SubMersive! It brings authority to the LFE to so much a greater degree than I've experienced before.


I hear ya, though I don't quite think bringing authority is enough , ive had many, many subwoofers that brought that to the table.
Hmmmm........ I think the way id describe the Submersive is this....The Submersive is invisible and it will throw out such realistic bass that it will challenge your sanity.
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post #2174 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

WHOOOSH !! ^^^^ What Carl just said flew right over my head.

Is NEMA something related to FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) ?

Hello,
NEMA stands for "National Electrical Manufactures Association" My reference was to the relay's size.

Carl

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Hello,
NEMA stands for "National Electrical Manufactures Association" My reference was to the relay's size.

Carl

That's part of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Bureau, isn't it?


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post #2176 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 09:12 PM
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That's part of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Bureau, isn't it?

It is when I power everything off when I am not using it.
Carl

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post #2177 of 9667 Old 08-23-2009, 10:23 PM
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That's part of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Bureau, isn't it?

U.S. Department of the Interior; Bureau of Reclamation
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post #2178 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Other more experienced persons may jump in, but as you have done, I use the AVR trim to set my main speakers to 75 dB after running Audyssey, and the sub a few dB above this to taste, as you have done. As I understand it, Audyssey sets the speaker levels to match the speakers relative to one another, but not on an absolute basis. In my case, after running Audyssey I typically have to increase the trims in the Onk 805 about 3 to 4 dB each to bring them up to 75. (I also set my surrounds 2 to 3 dB above 75, just because I like to emphasize the surround effects.)

What is the advantage of manually setting the trim so all speakers read 75 dB?

After running Audyssey my speakers are at 73 dB, so I would have to increase the trims by +2 dB to make them all 75 dB. I'm using the Onkyo 876 BTW.
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post #2179 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jchong View Post

What is the advantage of manually setting the trim so all speakers read 75 dB?

After running Audyssey my speakers are at 73 dB, so I would have to increase the trims by +2 dB to make them all 75 dB. I'm using the Onkyo 876 BTW.

There's no real advantage other than knowing that when your volume is at at "0", you are at reference.
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post #2180 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

There's no real advantage other than knowing that when your volume is at at "0", you are at reference.

....and what exactly does that tell you? Seems that depending on your speakers, room, amps, the actual SPL will vary.

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post #2181 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

....and what exactly does that tell you? Seems that depending on your speakers, room, amps, the actual SPL will vary.

Unless your amp or speakers can't cut it, the actual SPL at your listeng position should be reference levels. I believe that means 85db average with up to 105db peaks from the mains and up to 115db peaks from the sub.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calentz View Post

It is when I power everything off when I am not using it.
Carl

Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

U.S. Department of the Interior; Bureau of Reclamation

Actually, it was the Department of Redundancy Departments, Bureau of Western Mythology - A Proud Service of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Agency.

It was a very obscure agency in an even more obscure reference to a comedy group known as Firesign Theater who were in their heyday in the late 60's and early 70's. Amazingly enough, they are still performing. I am showing my age and counter-cultural heritage.


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post #2183 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

What is the advantage of manually setting the trim so all speakers read 75 dB?

After running Audyssey my speakers are at 73 dB, so I would have to increase the trims by +2 dB to make them all 75 dB. I'm using the Onkyo 876 BTW.

Agreed; no benefit. You make up any difference with the main volume control
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post #2184 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

....and what exactly does that tell you? Seems that depending on your speakers, room, amps, the actual SPL will vary.

There are no audio police who will come by and give you a ticket, but it's nice to know you've made an effort to calibrate "zero" on your dial to the intended gain structure which is supposed to be used in mastering.

In the end the relative matching is what matters most, although apart from the identified points of concern for the subwoofer channel outputs, most receivers and preamps have optimized their noise floor and operation for use up to and below the nominal reference level (typically zero dB, ~80 on some Onkyo/Integra products).

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post #2185 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 08:48 PM
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Hi everyone ,it s been a long time I read this post and I realy want to have your opinion...I only heard my subwoofer Paradigm servo 15 v.2...so you can call me a newbie...The only thing I know it s I love his sound and noe I woul like to made an real upgrade ,and I look in the direction of the Submersive...
So it would be a real upgrade if I pass to the Submersive side. Paradigmne 15 inch driver 1200 watts sealed sub v.s Submersive:two 15 inch drivers 1000 watts power sealed sub.
To be honnest I also consideer two other options :1-add a second Paradigm or buy an Elemental design A7-900 (but the size scare me)
I have a sealed room of 2100 cubic feet without acoustic treatment and bass trap (Isuppose to add four in each corner someday),and I dont have an equalizer such a SMS-1,I never use my Audissey equalizer from my Integra DTC-9.8...Should I try it for better results...
I hope you gonna give me good informations cause I need the best advice before I made my purschase ,it s a lot of money 2000$ and more...My choice is gonna rest in my home theatre for many many long years...
P.S. forget about the mistakes in my english I am a french Canadian
Thanks

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post #2186 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 10:31 PM
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struggledave,

I have a Paradigm Servo 15a and a Submersive. Both subs are sealed units. I am using both in my theater room. I had purchased the Paradigm when in a different house. There was substantial bass reinforcement in the listening area with this sub. I couldn't leave well enough alone and also added some SVS 20-39 PCI tube subs. The SVS seemed to be a bit more distinct in the bass, while the Paradigm went lower. The added subs seemed to balance out the room,but impact at times seemed less. I moved to another house, which is very open and larger. I initially used the SVS subs alone in the theater room and added an SMS-1. The response curve was pretty flat, but I could detect the subs and quality wasn't quite right for my area. I did not and still do not have traps. I removed the SVS subs and purchased the Submersive. I used the SMS-1, and overall response was much better. I have ended up adding the Paradigm back in at the front of the room with the center on top of it with the Submersive in rear, 1/3 of the long wall behind. I am not now using the SMS-1. Bass at the listening position is tight and powerful, though in non-listening positions there are hot rumble spots. I intend to experiment adding traps as well.

I like the Paradigm and am keeping it. I have had buzzing issues with it in the past, but currently not a problem. The Submersive is considerably more powerful and seemingly more articulate. However, so much of this has to do with the room and placement. I think I have been very fortunate that these two subs seem to be complimenting each other in my room. With Paradigm being Canadian made, you have some advantages in distribution and, hopefully, pricing. The Submersive is an excellent product. I appreciate it is not an inexpensive purchase, but it is a great value and a great performer.

Best of luck,
Will
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post #2187 of 9667 Old 08-24-2009, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

These measurements were taken with xtz Room Analyzer:
http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allman...kt=41&eng=true
They show FR from 15 Hz to 300 Hz. Also, in the upper right corner, you can see a plot of spectral decay over time, with color showing intensity, (SPL).

Here is the "baseline" FR:



And here is the response after running Audyssey and adding the SMS-1:



The FR is now in a 6 dB window from 15 Hz to 125 Hz. Also, in the spectral decay plot, the excessive energy below 20 Hz is greatly reduced. And it sounds incredible.

Craig

Edit: I also adjusted the distance setting after adding the SMS-1. I watched the response on Room Analyzer at the crossover, and the addition of 6 ft. was the best response.

Very nice Craig! Boy do I wish I lived near you!


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post #2188 of 9667 Old 08-25-2009, 05:55 AM
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Very nice Craig! Boy do I wish I lived near you!

As a fellow Packer fan and a fellow AVS'er, you're welcome to visit anytime!

Craig

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post #2189 of 9667 Old 08-25-2009, 07:49 AM
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Mark Seaton, check you email and PMs as I have sent you a notification that i am demanding my money back, if you prefer I will have my lawyer call you.
What is going on here ? The Submersive has damaged the foundation on my home. The house will have to be jacked up and a new concrete foundation will have to be made. I would highly recommend you cover yourself in the future by including a statement with the Submersive that says that Seaton Sound is not responsible for damage caused by the Submersive.
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post #2190 of 9667 Old 08-25-2009, 08:05 AM
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Turn it down a bit!!!
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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