Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Ya the problem with the "GAME" is that satisfaction is all relative to MONEY on hand.

Sure you could take back your $599 PB-12NSD and get something more expensive that would be better.

But the question is how much better for how much money.

You and I seem like we are clones for what we strive for bass wise. We want the best of the bottom digging bass that will rattle our bones (and our house).

I think one 16-46PCI+ subs would make us happier and 2 would make us MUCH happier ....1 of these subs tuned to 12hz can easily reach 8-10hz in room........

OR one PC ULTRA tuned to 12hz....that would make my face hurt from smiling....2 might bring the house down...(which would be totally fun)

Problem is that they are $950 EACH for the PC+ and $1150each for the Ultras...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I should tell you my "new" plan is to wait a year and get the LOWEST DIGGING SVS sub they make to add to the NSD. (Probably their newest Ultra PC)

NSD will take care of 20hz to 80hz and I will not lose the mid bass SLAM
ULTRA will take care of 20hz and below

on paper and in my mind this sounds really good

Very true, if money were not part of the game I would have a few Velodyne DD18's in my house but as I am no where near rich, I have to go with a budget. And I told myself that I would not spend more than $1000 on a sub.

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post #272 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 09:07 AM
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Jeff I didn't know your budget allowed you to spend up to $1000.

So in reality you could upgrade your PB-12NSD.....You have another $400 to spend...

That being said....The HSU VTF-3 HO with Turbocharger actually might be your best buy over anything that SVS is offering AT THIS MOMENT. It really has some glowing reviews on here. It is a level above the NSD so you really cannot compare the 2 subs. It is more comparable to the PLUS series from SVS.

(I know you are in a 45day window and that if you are going to make a move you cannot wait for SVS to unveil their new line of subs).

Although the 16-46PC+ for $949 would dig VERY VERY DEEP and adding a 2nd sub would be something we will both probably do regardless of what we have right now. (I'm not as concerned about the mid bass loss because I do not use my sub for music that often!)

And of course if you can splurge another $150 (lol) the PC Ultra for $1150 would obviously be an even better choice....

I have a feeling the new ultra tubes will be more expensive because of increased costs of production and obviously a higher quality sub....(my uneducated guess will be $1200-$1400).

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post #273 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 09:15 AM
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The Ultra in 12Hz mode has only one 3" port open, you can get quite a bit of port noise when pushing hard in this configuration. If you really want deep extension, the 16-46 is hard to beat with two 3" ports open in 12Hz tune. You do need two to get "reference" levels in larger rooms though.

Was it Nicholas that had the eight 16-46s in his home theatre?
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post #274 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 09:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Craig,

Your reviews are way better than those of many "pro" reviewers,who talk...talk...the talk,and miss to post measured performance. Keep it up Craig



Do I hear some peeps make fun of 30 subs Well that is good,at least there is some interest,and BTW I have a Trinity on order,ordered today! HE HE Soon ,finally I will be able to see....HEAR what the hype is all about,I want to eat my own sarcastic words about Deaf Tech.

I appreciate the compliment, though I do like reading all subwoofer reviews. Your review of the Trinity is now officially getting some pressure - if you like it enough, I will make sure one gets into the shootout - it looks like a natural competitor to the AV123 BMF.

Didn't you once list all your subs ? I was sure that list was in a thread somewhere.

As for those demanding pics of all the subs: Lighten Up ... there is no need for beating on The Ear, guys. He just happens to be more warped about subs than anyone else. SOMEONE has to make me look reasonable.

For that, I appreciate the man ...

Plus - his opinions on the various subs are pretty reasonable and well stated.
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post #275 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 09:22 AM
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I'd think that one 16-46 would dig nice and deep in the rooms we are using them in.

for instance my living room is 1536cuft, open into an 1152cuft dinning room.

8 of them........that is my dream!

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post #276 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 09:23 AM
 
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Kevin - The MBM-12 will get the nearfield treatment starting this weekend ... look for it with the PB12 and the Mark III's ... and the UItra/HO later.
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post #277 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Jeffry - I don't have the VTF-3 Mark II, just the VTF-3 HO, VTF-3 Mark III, and VTF-2 Mark III.

Jeff ... The MBM was only about 5 feet closer to me than the HO's were - no where near enough difference to cause any smearing.

Now that everything has arrived, there will be more testing done. It is also time to take pics of all these subs. The Ear has 30, and I only have 18 (I know, amateur) ... but perhaps you guys would like to see some pics this weekend ?

I was looking at HSU's website and the VTF-2 MKIII looks to be one heck of a deal and one heck of a sub. I might go that route and do two of those. It still looks to dig down to 18hz. I just became a lot more interested in this sub. So when you get some play time with this one Craig, let us know your results.

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post #278 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 10:19 AM
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well our NSD's dig down to 18hz as well....

plus a power advange for the SVS sub

I think the NSD is probably closest to VTF-3 MK3 in terms of power and extension

and the HSU is $50 more...

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post #279 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 10:20 AM
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dear god this sounds amazing!

http://www.svsound.com/CES2007/SVS_P...3SubsSheet.pdf

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post #280 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Kevin - The MBM-12 will get the nearfield treatment starting this weekend ... look for it with the PB12 and the Mark III's ... and the UItra/HO later.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts Craig, I am especially interested in hearing your views on the sound of the HO (preferably w/out turbo) paired with the MBM.

(Patiently twiddling his thumbs waiting for Craig)
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post #281 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 10:24 AM
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Yes but from the many different reviews of the HSU subs and the info that I just got from talking to a guy at HSU, the VTF-2 MKIII might be what I am looking for. The variable tuning, two ports and how musical I have heard they are might be just wha I am looking for. Don't get me wrong, the SVS is the best sub I have ever owned but I don't feel it is as musical as my old AAD C-10 sub and I want the best of both worlds. I also feel that I have losta little bit of mid range punch with my SVS. Although it goes way deeper than any sub I have owned, it seems to be missing something in the upper bass region.

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post #282 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 10:29 AM
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I am lucky in a way that I am not trying to use my sub for 2 purposes.

Mine is strictly for HT use.

The 2MKIII for only $469 is cheap! And with your $1000 max, you can get 2 of those right from the start!

This sounds like it might be the best route for you.

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post #283 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 10:39 AM
 
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This weekend, even though I cannot take the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3.3 and 2.3 outside for some GP sessions, we can do some movie shots, and measure what each is doing, in terms of SPL, on scenes like we all know from WOTW and a few other movies, too. Requests on movies welcome.

The early results of the VTF-3.3 are outstanding, especially for a $700 subwoofer (final pricing) ... but we need to do some A/B testing against the PB12, Fathom 112, Ultra, VTF-3 HO, etc ... before making any performance judgements.
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post #284 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 10:55 AM
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I'll have to vote for:

DTS versions of Lord of the Rings
DTS Jurassic Park
DTS Master and Commander
Batman Begins
DTS U-571

Those movies really seemed to pack some MAJOR bass scenes in them!


I hate to say I'm SERIOUSLY starting to doubt my purchase of my PB-12NSD

Seems like the HSU subs might have a price/performance advantage for the VTF-2 MK 3 for $469

VTF-3 MK 3 for $649 seems even better of a price/performance advantage.

Of course this is all based upon the readings of this wonderful forum!

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post #285 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

This weekend, even though I cannot take the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3.3 and 2.3 outside for some GP sessions, we can do some movie shots, and measure what each is doing, in terms of SPL, on scenes like we all know from WOTW and a few other movies, too. Requests on movies welcome.

The early results of the VTF-3.3 are outstanding, especially for a $700 subwoofer (final pricing) ... but we need to do some A/B testing against the PB12, Fathom 112, Ultra, VTF-3 HO, etc ... before making any performance judgements.


Craig,
Any early impressions on the VTF-2?
The more and more I think about it, the more I think that this could be one of the if not the best sub $500 subwoofer out there and one heck of a bargain. And if I go with my initial plan of two of them, might be in audio bliss.

I'm your Huckleberry
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post #286 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 07:34 PM
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Hi all im new to the sub thing I have always had big full range speakers since the 1970's, now im doing a ht setup and im lost on the sub can you guys help me out. I have all athena speakers for the ht setup 70% movies 30% music I like tight hard hitting base not boomy and Im looking for a sub that sounds great for both

AS-B2 front
AS-C1 Center
WS-100 rear
Pioneer VSX 816 100w ch.
OPPO OPDV971H DVD

Im looking at the HSU-VTF-2 MK 3, Velodyne DLS-3750R and the Sunfire Carver Dominator D-8

How would you guys rank/compare these subs

thanks for any input
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post #287 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 07:52 PM
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Craig if you are looking for movie scenes to test your subs, I would suggest the Darla tapping scene from Finding Nemo, it is quick and to the point.
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post #288 of 6764 Old 01-11-2007, 08:57 PM
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Craig,

Thanks,and belive it I will post pics of the Trinity along side my other subs.And low and behold open the Trinity and snap pics of the drivers,PR's and amp. As this has never been done to my knowledge. And I never saw pics of the inards of Definitive's newest subs.I better see quality components or there will be some product stomping.


My trusty TrueRTA/laptop/mic and the ole RatShack SPL meter will assist me,I want to verify the linearity of the Trinity at levels going from mild to wild. I have a full report planed. I will try to take two days off just to test the Trinity sub.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #289 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 06:17 AM
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Just a personnal comment about the ranking of SVS Pb12+/2 and The 3 HO.

Indeed, the 3 HO with Turbo is a very good performer, and I will personally order 2 units very soon . but I am wondering why this is a better sub than the SVS Plus/2.

The 3 HO is very good below 20 Hz, but above 25 Hz where most movie LFE occurs, the SVS will simply do the 3 HO by quite a lot (sometimes 10 db). The 3 HO seems to trade "midbass" (25-80) for deep bass below 20, thing that I personnally appreciate as I love deep bass, .

IMO (although I will order as I said twin 3 HO turbo), I find the SVS more balanced over the entire low bass frequency, and does not require a mid bass module, and will make overall a more equilibrium through the entire bass freq. range.

Also, the idea of adding a mid bass module is not appreciated by me, as a good subwoofer (IMO) should be able to handle Deep bass YES, but also bass that any 300$ subwoofer can handle (40-80 Hz) .

As per Craig test comparing DD18, SVS Pb 12+/2 and 3 HO wih and without , (IMO) the 3 HO without Turbo looks also more balanced, having better overall frequency responce, and certainly less distortion, so I am wondering why the 3 MO TURBO here is ranked better than the 3 HO without Turbo? Is it just because it goes deeper? Is it really enough?

One last thing I am "dreaming of" is to see FR and Max output, 2 m GP measurments for both the 3 HO with and without turbo... This will cut short many expectations or claims.

Hope my message is clear.... I love the bass depth of the HO, but I am also concerned about midbass, and refuse the idea of adding another sub for midbass (Pb12 +/2 does not need one!!).

Blaser
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post #290 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaser View Post

Just a personnal comment about the ranking of SVS Pb12+/2 and The 3 HO.

Indeed, the 3 HO with Turbo is a very good performer, and I will personally order 2 units very soon . but I am wondering why this is a better sub than the SVS Plus/2.

The 3 HO is very good below 20 Hz, but above 25 Hz where most movie LFE occurs, the SVS will simply do the 3 HO by quite a lot (sometimes 10 db). The 3 HO seems to trade "midbass" (25-80) for deep bass below 20, thing that I personnally appreciate as I love deep bass, .

IMO (although I will order as I said twin 3 HO turbo), I find the SVS more balanced over the entire low bass frequency, and does not require a mid bass module, and will make overall a more equilibrium through the entire bass freq. range.

Also, the idea of adding a mid bass module is not appreciated by me, as a good subwoofer (IMO) should be able to handle Deep bass YES, but also bass that any 300$ subwoofer can handle (40-80 Hz) .

As per Craig test comparing DD18, SVS Pb 12+/2 and 3 HO wih and without , (IMO) the 3 HO without Turbo looks also more balanced, having better overall frequency responce, and certainly less distortion, so I am wondering why the 3 MO TURBO here is ranked better than the 3 HO without Turbo? Is it just because it goes deeper? Is it really enough?

One last thing I am "dreaming of" is to see FR and Max output, 2 m GP measurments for both the 3 HO with and without turbo... This will cut short many expectations or claims.

Hope my message is clear.... I love the bass depth of the HO, but I am also concerned about midbass, and refuse the idea of adding another sub for midbass (Pb12 +/2 does not need one!!).

Blaser

I think your missing one of the main points of the MBM-12. It allows for near field placement, lets say behind the couch. Allowing for impact from the mid bass regions. I have A/B'ed my setup, which also includes an PC-Ultra and MBM-12 and there is a noticeable difference, favoring the MBM to be in the setup.
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post #291 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

I think your missing one of the main points of the MBM-12. It allows for near field placement, lets say behind the couch. Allowing for impact from the mid bass regions. I have A/B'ed my setup, which also includes an PC-Ultra and MBM-12 and there is a noticeable difference, favoring the MBM to be in the setup.

Thanks for your post , but the MID BASS unit is a newly invented thing that I find hardly acceptable, also this will increase the package cost by 400 $, I am talking about the 3 HO as a complete subwoofer..... Also important is my ranking questions....
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post #292 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaser View Post

Also, the idea of adding a mid bass module is not appreciated by me, as a good subwoofer (IMO) should be able to handle Deep bass YES, but also bass that any 300$ subwoofer can handle (40-80 Hz) .

Blaser

The idea of the midbass module is really to place these frequencies nearfielf with a driver that was specifically designed for those frequencies.

Frloor standing mains generaly have multiple speakers all with there specifically designed purpose. Then we say man I like my main speakers but maybe I will add a subwoofer. My HO did not need a MBM it was by far the best sub I had ever had in my home and I am sure I would have felt the same way about the plus/2.

But being the kind of listeners most of us are if we have the money we always wamt more. I bought an MBM and although I have not totaly integrated it into my system my initial opinion is OMG this little box setting nearfield really added a lot to the experience. If I was to place it farfield next to the sub I think that this impact would not have been as great. I threw the Darla scene in the DVD and the MBM was moving a tremendus amount of air for just 50-60Hz.

Things evolve and the subwoofer world is really seeing a lot of changes. The MBM is not necessary to enjoy your subs, but is a pretty cool and effective toy.
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post #293 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 06:57 AM
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jhixson,

Do you have a house curve in room FR, isn't it easier to obtain without the MBM?
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post #294 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 07:03 AM
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[quote=jhixson]My HO did not need a MBM it was by far the best sub I had ever had in my home and I am sure I would have felt the same way about the plus/2.

QUOTE]

Very good, that is what I like hearing. Do you use a Turbo? If yes how does it compare to without Turbo?
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post #295 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 07:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaser View Post

Just a personnal comment about the ranking of SVS Pb12+/2 and The 3 HO.

Indeed, the 3 HO with Turbo is a very good performer, and I will personally order 2 units very soon . but I am wondering why this is a better sub than the SVS Plus/2.

The 3 HO is very good below 20 Hz, but above 25 Hz where most movie LFE occurs, the SVS will simply do the 3 HO by quite a lot (sometimes 10 db). The 3 HO seems to trade "midbass" (25-80) for deep bass below 20, thing that I personnally appreciate as I love deep bass, .

IMO (although I will order as I said twin 3 HO turbo), I find the SVS more balanced over the entire low bass frequency, and does not require a mid bass module, and will make overall a more equilibrium through the entire bass freq. range.

Also, the idea of adding a mid bass module is not appreciated by me, as a good subwoofer (IMO) should be able to handle Deep bass YES, but also bass that any 300$ subwoofer can handle (40-80 Hz) .

As per Craig test comparing DD18, SVS Pb 12+/2 and 3 HO wih and without , (IMO) the 3 HO without Turbo looks also more balanced, having better overall frequency responce, and certainly less distortion, so I am wondering why the 3 MO TURBO here is ranked better than the 3 HO without Turbo? Is it just because it goes deeper? Is it really enough?

One last thing I am "dreaming of" is to see FR and Max output, 2 m GP measurments for both the 3 HO with and without turbo... This will cut short many expectations or claims.

Hope my message is clear.... I love the bass depth of the HO, but I am also concerned about midbass, and refuse the idea of adding another sub for midbass (Pb12 +/2 does not need one!!).

Blaser

Blaser ... when Ilkka did a GP session using a VTF-3 Mark II, it was within 6 dB at the widest variance vs. the PB12-Plus/2.

On what do you base the idea that the VTF-3 HO, with a longer throw driver and a more powerful amp, more port area and a larger enclosure, will be 4 dB or more less powerful than the VTF-3 Mark II ? In order for the PB12-Plus/2 to be 10 dB more powerful than the HO, this would need to occur.

Also - The purpose of the MBM is to place it nearfield, which eliminates (for the most part) the effect of the room in the more easily audible bass from 50 Hz and up, while allowing the larger subwoofer (ANY larger subwoofer, not just the VTF-3 HO) to be place further away, often preferred for a WAF rating.

It is my experience that the MBM fixes room problems more than anything else.
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post #296 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 07:53 AM
 
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Here are some of the subs being tested ...

Pic 1 - From Left, Rocket UFW-12, Hsu MBM-12, SVS PB12-Ultra, Hsu VTF-2 Mark III, SVS PB12-NSD, Hsu VTF-3 Mark III, JL Audio Fathom 112



Pic 2 - Bullpen area with a Rocket Bigfoot sitting atop a Velodyne DD-18, Paradigm Studio 100 V.3's, and a pair of VTF-3 HO's with one Turbo.



Pic 3 - Family room with a PB12-Plus/2. LOVE the finish.



Pic 4 - Main theater area with a pair of JL Audio Fathom 113's .. the little guy on top is the Rocket Tyke.



Pic 5 - Rocket Mini with built in 8 inch sub.




Missing from this pic as they are currently doing bass elsewhere in our home is the PB10 from SVS (boy's gaming area), Rocket SW-10 SE (our bedroom system), the BLT DIY in the Dad room theater (AKA the only area that Dad is allowed a cigar ... ), the 2nd UFW-12, and the Rocket X-Sub.
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post #297 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 08:19 AM
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C'mon Craig. Light 'em all up at once!
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post #298 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 08:22 AM
 
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Here is a sample as to why I use the Steely Dan disc as a subwoofer reference ... check out the response of the kick drum (I believed synthesized) ....

SVS PB12-NSD ...



Hsu VTF-3 Mark III

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post #299 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Here is a sample as to why I use the Steely Dan disc as a subwoofer reference ... check out the response of the kick drum (I believed synthesized) ....

They probably take a natural kick drum and feed it through a subharmonic synthesizer. That will generate a frequency one octave below the fundamental drum tone.
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post #300 of 6764 Old 01-14-2007, 08:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

They probably take a natural kick drum and feed it through a subharmonic synthesizer. That will generate a frequency one octave below the fundamental drum tone.

That makes sense ... I know that for 4 years, nothing has matched this disc as an overall torture test for a subwoofer. It has bass from about 16 Hz up to where the mains take over.

Every subwoofer gets subjected to this disc ... for the obvious reasons.

For a teaser ... the PB12-NSD, IMO, sounds better than the Plus/2 ... it is a remarkable value.

And the VTF-3.3 is re-writing the performance rules for a subwoofer anywhere near its price range.

These 2 subs are BOTH home runs.
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