Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 6764 Old 01-18-2007, 07:12 PM
 
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The Old Ultra was $1200 ... and the only mention of price was "a small increase" ... since you can drive to get it ... if the small increase is $100-$200, you are golden.

The new Ultra should easily out do a pair of PB12-NSD's.

I am anxious to test on against the VTF-3 HO, along with the other high end subs.
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post #452 of 6764 Old 01-18-2007, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The Old Ultra was $1200 ... and the only mention of price was "a small increase" ... since you can drive to get it ... if the small increase is $100-$200, you are golden.

The new Ultra should easily out do a pair of PB12-NSD's.

I am anxious to test on against the VTF-3 HO, along with the other high end subs.



Craig I'm drooling right now.....

"The Ultra should easily out do a pair for Pb12-nsd's".........1 sub that can do what TWO can do........thats really crazy!

I would think the new Ultra would have to beat the VFT-3HO with and without turbo....
The 13.5 inch woofer, like you said, is 27% larger than the 12inch......that has to do SOMETHING special in terms of extention and output

If all of this is the case I'll just hold on to my PB-12nsd for now, and I might be an ultra box owner as soon as you do some testing!!!!!

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post #453 of 6764 Old 01-18-2007, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Craig I'm drooling right now.....

"The Ultra should easily out do a pair for Pb12-nsd's".........1 sub that can do what TWO can do........thats really crazy!

I would think the new Ultra would have to beat the VFT-3HO with and without turbo....
The 13.5 inch woofer, like you said, is 27% larger than the 12inch......that has to do SOMETHING special in terms of extention and output

If all of this is the case I'll just hold on to my PB-12nsd for now, and I might be an ultra box owner as soon as you do some testing!!!!!

You can guarantee the new Ultra-13 will be outperforming the VTF in any form. The only question is SQ. SQ is what everything is hinging on...

You would be much better off with one overly capable sub rather than two "good" ones, that is unless you are using two for smoother or response or other placement issues.

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post #454 of 6764 Old 01-18-2007, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Craig I'm drooling right now.....

"The Ultra should easily out do a pair for Pb12-nsd's".........1 sub that can do what TWO can do........thats really crazy!

I would think the new Ultra would have to beat the VFT-3HO with and without turbo....
The 13.5 inch woofer, like you said, is 27% larger than the 12inch......that has to do SOMETHING special in terms of extention and output

If all of this is the case I'll just hold on to my PB-12nsd for now, and I might be an ultra box owner as soon as you do some testing!!!!!

bgillyjcu, I read that the new Ultra 13.5" will have a choice of 3 tunes - 20hz, 15hz, and - I know you will love this one - 10hz!
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post #455 of 6764 Old 01-18-2007, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

You can guarantee the new Ultra-13 will be outperforming the VTF in any form. The only question is SQ. SQ is what everything is hinging on...

Theory and speculation is one thing but real world listening is another. Much like the difference between a car being capable of 180mph vs one that can do 200mph, the 20mph can be negligated if it cant brake and handle at such speed.

In audio reproduction its about the whole package not just a few specs which is why direct comparison listening tests are the only way you can be 100% positive on what is the best sounding/performing package.

Unless your into spl drag racing (bragging rights) the fact is you are buying a new subwoofer to "listen to audio" ...... what graphs and numbers say certainly helps you get a list together of potential candidates together, but at the end of the day by directly comparing those candidates you get to hear, feel and experience the real world sound quality/performance differences in your own listening room.

For many people who have taken the time (and cost involved) to compare subwoofers it becomes evident that there are enormous SQ differences in competing subwoofers that have very similar measurements.

Theory is fine from a discussion point of view but comparing and listening tells you the whole story.

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post #456 of 6764 Old 01-18-2007, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The amount of movies with bass that low is still very small.....and it is not going to grow fast. Theaters can not handle it.

Today's standard drivers will always strain that low as well, what you want is something like what Eminent Technologies has developed when it is more affordable.
http://www.rotarywoofer.com/index.htm

I went to that demo in Vegas....OH MY!!!!

Priced from $21,950 to 25, 950.

Powerbuy time!!!!

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post #457 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 04:05 AM
 
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Craigsub, is the thread to which you referred the abovenoted?

That's the one. Bring a snack ...
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post #458 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

bgillyjcu, I read that the new Ultra 13.5" will have a choice of 3 tunes - 20hz, 15hz, and - I know you will love this one - 10hz!

I saw that is has 15 and 10hz mode.

I am sure that even with the loss in headroom in those Low settings, the space that I'm putting it in would be the right size that I probably wouldn't need 2 of those subs.

It is def. going to get interesting here over the next couple months...

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post #459 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 04:23 AM
 
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The VTF-2 Mark III is in the system, and memories of the VTF-3.2 came back in spades. It is one of the best subs in the $700 arena ... but for $469 ... WOW.

Of course, it will get the same treatment as all the other subs.

I forgot to add the PB10 to the list ... 83 points. It is a tremendous home theater subwoofer value, and, as everyone knows, bulletproof.

This weekend, the Plus/2 will get the tweak I did 3 years ago with my first plus/2 - the Base Plate removed and run as a forward firing sub.
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post #460 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 04:43 AM
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craigsub,

When you get around to it, you might want to try the same tweak on the HSU MBM-12 with the port turned down and the driver facing forward.

Certainly not how they designed it, but I find resulting sound subjectively tighter and more accurate for the mid bass range.

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post #461 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I forgot to add the PB10 to the list ... 83 points. It is a tremendous home theater subwoofer value, and, as everyone knows, bulletproof.

craig, any qualitative comments you might want to add about the performance of the PB-10? those of us w/o the $$$ to pony up for some of the higher end stuff are quite interested in your opinions about these better entry level subs.

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post #462 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

This weekend, the Plus/2 will get the tweak I did 3 years ago with my first plus/2 - the Base Plate removed and run as a forward firing sub.

Craig, are those the new 12.3 drivers in your Plus/2?

One other question - what is the size (cu ft/dimensions) of your room. I think a lot of guys would be impressed to see these smaller single 12" drivers are capable of filling larger rooms.

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post #463 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 06:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post

All right I will read it to see what you are doing in these tests. Before I do so, are there any affiliations, business interests, relationships, etc I should know about? Things that could affect matters. That is important to know too.

Sherlock, you got me. I am actually on the board of directors for every subwoofer company being represented.

Please, Lighten up. These are subwoofers, not MRI machines. I bought them all. I was ASKED to put together a rating system by a bunch of guys who cannot do a side by side.

If the results here and on AV123 are helpful, great. If not, that is cool, too.

I am looking into doing some things "home theater" in the future, but currently have no affiliations with anyone.
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post #464 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

craigsub,

When you get around to it, you might want to try the same tweak on the HSU MBM-12 with the port turned down and the driver facing forward.

Certainly not how they designed it, but I find resulting sound subjectively tighter and more accurate for the mid bass range.

Interesting tweak Jim for that module. You must be sensing noise or artifacts from the port. Have you tried plugging the port completely? I do that regularly depending on listening material with deep range floorstanders and it makes a noticeable difference in the mid-bass .

John
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post #465 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

.....
What seems to be lost in the shuffle here is the fact that the old Ultra single driver platform outperformed the dual driver Plus in overall performance....

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

I don't know why statements like this always get missed......people are sooooo consumed in numbers and theoreticals, etc, and always always seem to forget what has the better sound quality!

The Plus/2 with the 12.3 drivers is and will remain the "sweet spot" of the lineup, but in terms of pure sound quality, the Ultra is still the flagship.
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post #466 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 06:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by G-star View Post

craig, any qualitative comments you might want to add about the performance of the PB-10? those of us w/o the $$$ to pony up for some of the higher end stuff are quite interested in your opinions about these better entry level subs.

When you look at the PB10, you really do need to remember this subwoofer is regularly available for $379 from "B" stock. An area of the PB10 which is overlooked is just how bulletproof it really is. $379 is a VERY appealing number for an entry level sub, which often means a somewhat "rookie" user.

You can try to, and will fail, to hurt the PB-10 regardless what you throw at it. For an inexperienced subwoofer user, that is a very good thing. No worries about "I tried the Pods emerge scene @ 110 dB and blew up my subwoofer" here.

It plays very deep, is pretty decent on music, and the compromises made in its design were excellent compromises. The PB12, for example, is better on music. It also hits deeper. In "my world", the $170 difference (whether it is "B" stock or "A" stock, it is $170.) is pretty minor - but it is really 45% more $$$$ for a "B" stock PB12 than a PB10.

To answer your question more directly ... the PB10 does nothing that sounds "BAD", ever. It is not quite as articulate or visceral as its more expensive competition, but it is still very good.
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post #467 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 06:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Buckeyefan View Post

Craig, are those the new 12.3 drivers in your Plus/2?

One other question - what is the size (cu ft/dimensions) of your room. I think a lot of guys would be impressed to see these smaller single 12" drivers are capable of filling larger rooms.

It is the 12.3 driver - and the rooms involved are two sealed rooms:

1. 25x21x8.5 feet
2. 44x14x7 feet (it "plays smaller" due to a stairwell which "cuts" the room into a 1/3 rd : 2/3 rd arrangement)

And one open room:

27x24 with vaulted ceilings and openings into a 32x28 foot kitchen.
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post #468 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 06:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

I don't know why statements like this always get missed......people are sooooo consumed in numbers and theoreticals, etc, and always always seem to forget what has the better sound quality!

The Plus/2 with the 12.3 drivers is and will remain the "sweet spot" of the lineup, but in terms of pure sound quality, the Ultra is still the flagship.

You are welcome ... This now 5 year old driver is still extremely competitive with the latest offerings from other companies.

The new Ultra looks like a pretty large step forward for SVS. While the dual driver is not coming out until year's end, a pair of them in a sealed arrangement should be around $4500 ... Quad long throw 13.5 inch drivers in a sealed arrangement ?

We need to get Ed Mullen out some night, ply him with some single malt, and get the T/S parameters on this driver ...
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post #469 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 07:17 AM
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meh.....i'm too busy these days

i can't even find time to break away from the house and work on my twins, much less take anyone for drinks and such.

the only time I had some free time was at CES! had dinner one evening with deon Bearden and Thilo, and Tom Nouissaine........and another night just some sushi and some drinks with Mark. Cool fellas.

I wish Ed was around so I could meet him too, but I hear he is tall as mollases, so my little short @ss would look goofy next to him!
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post #470 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

You are welcome ... This now 5 year old driver is still extremely competitive with the latest offerings from other companies.

The new Ultra looks like a pretty large step forward for SVS. While the dual driver is not coming out until year's end, a pair of them in a sealed arrangement should be around $4500 ... Quad long throw 13.5 inch drivers in a sealed arrangement ?

We need to get Ed Mullen out some night, ply him with some single malt, and get the T/S parameters on this driver ...


I'm in for drinks any time Guinness is my prefered drink

Craig.....any idea if we can actually get a testing day at your place. I for one would love to spend a day playing various scenes from movies just to see how one subwoofer does vs another. I'm sure that any one that lives within a reasonable distance of Erie PA would be in for that kind of learning experience as well!!!

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post #471 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 07:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

I'm in for drinks any time Guinness is my prefered drink

Craig.....any idea if we can actually get a testing day at your place. I for one would love to spend a day playing various scenes from movies just to see how one subwoofer does vs another. I'm sure that any one that lives within a reasonable distance of Erie PA would be in for that kind of learning experience as well!!!

That could be a lot of fun ... maybe early spring, around the first of April. By then, we should be looking at no worse than guys driving through rain.

The right size for something like this would be about 6 guys. You each could listen to a subwoofer on various scenes for a half hour or so, and draw your own conclusions.

The hard part of something like this is we can typically take 7-10 nights of 3-4 hours per night. But a more relaxed, fun day with subwoofers and all the other stuff we have, could be pretty cool.
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post #472 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 07:33 AM
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Seriously...right now at 10:31 in Shaker Heights on the East Side of Cleveland it is snowing so hard I literally cannot see the building that is no more than 50 yards away.......

I really hope this doesn't keep up!!!!!!!!!!

I'd love to be included in that 6 man group of a relaxed, fun day of subwoofer listening.

I might not be that old (27) and super experienced like you are, but we all have to learn somewhere and I'd love to be involved in this!!!!!

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post #473 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 08:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post


I might not be that old (27) and super experienced like you are, but we all have to learn somewhere and I'd love to be involved in this!!!!!

At least you still have your hearing and don't consider consider Viagra ads to be a documentary ...
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post #474 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 08:54 AM
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..nor stutter...

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post #475 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

VERY VERY well written and very informative. I had a feeling someone would comment on the cyclinder design and how it is against the boxed design....

For me I'd just stack the PB-12NSD's so placement and looks are no issue at all.

Both Craig and Ed Mullen have said that 2 PB-12NSD's would be equal to, if not better than, 1 PB-12/+2. Ed stated "most people would have a very hard time telling the difference between 2 stacked PB-12's and 1 PB-12/+2). PLUS the front firing design is a newer supposedly better design now. AND as far as money is concerned the Dual PB-12's is a Better option for me.

The turbo's would be harder to use colocated because of the side firing woofer. If I wanted the RIGHT next to each other 1 sub would be firing right against the other....probably not a good idea. (Cant stack the Turbo's because of the TURBO Unit).

So NOWWWWWWW that leaves me to contemplate this

Dual stacked PB-12NSDs (I already own 1 PB-12)
vs
Dual Stacked VTF-3.3s w/o turbo
vs
1 single VTF-3.3 with turbo
vs
1 single VTF-HO with turbo

So which is going to give me what I'm so desiring.....the best LOW RESPONSE along with the best mid/high response..

(Disclaimer--I do not care about MUSIC at all........99% HT use for the subs)

Going the HSU route will force me to sell my PB-12, possible lose out on some money, and actually have to spend at least an extra $200 in shipipng for the HSU product. SVS shipping is free because I live so close I can just pick up the subs)


Thoughts, comments, opinions.....(craig knows I'd love to hear from him since he is "the man")

ps.............I love this forum and all of the members here are the best around!!!!

The way I look at it is this. The PB12-NSD is an excellent sub. You already have one as it is, so financially, it would be smart if you just bought another one and the MBM and called it a day. I know if I were in your boat, that is what I would do. I was watching both Star Wars EP1 & 3 last night and was absolutely blown away by how good my PB12-NSD sounded. I have watched the Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul fight scene in EP1 so many times and it sounded completely different and so much better than I have ever heard. I can imagine how good it would sound adding another one and the MBM. I was feeling and hearing very low frequencies that I have never experienced before. I then sat there and thought to myself, really, how much more and how much lower do I really need???? My answer, I really don't need anything else.

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post #476 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Any interest in an MBM-12? If not, I'd say dual VTF-3mk3's for the best bang for the buck.

But since you have a PB-12NSD....just get another one. You will be happy in any case. You're just doing all the what if scenarios....and that will drive you crazy.

I totally agree.
1. Since you already have one PB12-NSD...just get another one. You will save yourself the hassle of trying to sell your current one and you will save yourself a lot of money.
2. You are going to be very happy with two PB12's.
3. If you also add the MBM with dual PB12's, get out of here, that will be a ridiculous set up.
4. Like cschang said, all of the what if scenarios are going to drive us nuts. There is always going to be something bigger and better coming out, that's just the way it is. I am almost positive that I am keeping my SVS, the only reason I would upgrade is because I am still in my 45 day window, if I had to try to sell it, I wouldn't even be considering an upgrade.

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post #477 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 10:18 AM
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Craig, any idea when we can see the pod scene from WOTW graphed for the new subs you just added, I am curious to see how the HSU 3.3 compares to the HO. I am strictly an HT guy, maybe 1% music if that, and I want my next sub to hit as deep and clean as possible for my budget which is why I am still leaning for the HO over the 3.3, but I am curious to see the scene plotted.

Based on my above statements, since you have the ability to hear them side by side, would you consider the HO and MBM a better combination for me over the 3.3 and MBM? My space is about 6000 cuft.
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post #478 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 10:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Craig, any idea when we can see the pod scene from WOTW graphed for the new subs you just added, I am curious to see how the HSU 3.3 compares to the HO. I am strictly an HT guy, maybe 1% music if that, and I want my next sub to hit as deep and clean as possible for my budget which is why I am still leaning for the HO over the 3.3, but I am curious to see the scene plotted.

Based on my above statements, since you have the ability to hear them side by side, would you consider the HO and MBM a better combination for me over the 3.3 and MBM? My space is about 6000 cuft.

The WOTW scenes will all be re-created in our basement theater room, and will be done in the near future.

The older graphs were done in the upstairs theater room, and since we now have all the subs except the Fathom 113 in the basement, it will be pretty easy to run the test there.
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post #479 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 10:40 AM
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Thanks Craig, would you care to comment about the second part of my reply?

If not, no problem
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post #480 of 6764 Old 01-19-2007, 11:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Thanks Craig, would you care to comment about the second part of my reply?

If not, no problem

I would grab the HO/MBM combination for the extra $250 anytime, if the $$$$ difference is not a problem.
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