Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

sjmarcy, you conveniently forgot to disclose that you & SVS co-founder Tom Vodhanel are old buddys from way back and you know him well "from behind the scenes" (your own phrase), and Tom V. even remarks that he owes his subwoofer beginnings to you:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...92#post3054092

As I said all along, you definitely came here with a [not so hidden] agenda...

Great stuff! I am sure that many here had the 'ole "spidey senses tingling" about Mr. Marcewicz.

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post #632 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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"Without more facts, I don't think we should assume SVS has anything to do with this."

don't assume they don't either
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post #633 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splotto View Post

I don't think you can assign any of this the SVS without more information. sjmarcy is whoever he is and has expressed his own opinions so far.

Without more facts, I don't think we should assume SVS has anything to do with this.

Splotto

I called it an unfortunate coincidence for that reason. There are many intelligent posters who have come to their own conclusions.

Great history lesson Stan. Any worthwhile contribution to make here?

John
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post #634 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post


I will keep stressing this to everyone. If you buy an SVS or HSU sub you ARE going to be happy. We have CLEAR proof they are both HIGH quality subs and they will def. be an improvement over a lot of subs on the market.

SbWillie......every subwoofer, car company, and POP maker (coke and pepsi) try to sell their product stating it is the best.....

Of course SVS is going to say their product is the best.........just like if you ask HSU people if they have the best product, they will say yes. That is just the nature of the marketing and selling game.


The problem is that everyone wants to feel like they have the undisputed "best", thus the arguments and flame wars.

That's why it's important to take everything on any forum with a grain of salt.


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post #635 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:07 AM
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Craigsub, getting back on track......

Have you come up with anything as far as separate rankings/scores for HT vs. music? I'm probably in the minority here in that I listen to more music than most (maybe 30-35% music?), and I don't need the last few extra db/spl. I've always favored fast, articulate bass, going with sealed, servo-controlled subs.

Based on this, I'm leaning towards the JL Fathom 113, but having real trouble justifying the money. I'm hoping that the Submersive compares favorably with music, and might be a bit cheaper. Remember to comment on music listening if you get the chance. PLEASE?

John
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post #636 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

If this is true its another unfortunate coincidence which now explains an obvious agenda and does not look good on both the poster and the manufactuer. These aggressive guerrilla marketing tactics get old fast.

From all the SVS subs I have heard that characteristic midbass rolloff is pretty standard for TV's designs. So that chart for the pb12 looked fairly typical with its less than impress linearity. I've seen and measured similar decreases in response with SVS subs in that frequency range. Its the achilles heel of those subs and one of the reasons why SVS sound quality doesn't stand up in a side by side comparison with the Hsu subs. The different response profiles are audible when comparing the pbnsd12 to a more linear sub like the 3.3. The worst performer in the line-up is the pb12-/2 because of this problem.

Nevertheless, the differential is quite large which is likely attributable to room acoustics relative to the different driver and port configurations in those subs. I know Craig has checked his equipment often and it has been used in hundreds of tests with dozens of subs.

Stan I suggest you get a hold of these two subs, state your methodology, run measurements and post results here if you have a problem. One of the few things which have any merit in your comments is that this is indeed an open forum, however its time to back up your insinuations with some concrete data. I'm sure your friend can supply a sub or two.

I guess Ive been around the internet a/v forums far too long. I thought everyone was aware of the guerrilla marketing tactics that have been successfully used by certain internet direct groups over many years.

Because anonymity (in hiding behind a keyboard) eventually leads many agenda driven posters into a false sense of security "ultimately" when the full disclosure of a persons motives are revealed..... "it shouldn't surprise anyone".

As far as SQ.
Over many years I have found that subwoofers might measure and have specs/price that are quite close..... yet they undoubtedly sound very different when directly comparing them.

In my experience as far as what brand or model is best (within a price range) you can only be 100% guaranteed of getting the best by directly comparing them within your system.

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post #637 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rockemsockem View Post

The problem is that everyone wants to feel like they have the undisputed "best", thus the arguments and flame wars.

That's why it's important to take everything on any forum with a grain of salt.

Totally agreed ... I don't think my findings are the final word on a subwoofer's performance ... as long as the information is helpful to some, that is all a guy can ask for.

As for SVS being involved with getting someone to do what has happened here, I don't think that is what happened. Ron and Tom are genuinely good guys who are proud of their product line, and deservedly so. I just don't think they are the type to pursue a path as suggested here - so please, let's stop that speculation.

Let's get back to having some fun with all this, and please, if someone has suggestions, drop me a PM.
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post #638 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:17 AM
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I posted this over at HSU's website. I figured that it can be answered here too.

I have always heard how musical,accurate and articulate HSU subs are. And even though I would say that I am 70% home theater and 30% music, the first test I always use on a sub is with music. The way I look at it is if a sub performs good with music, it should do just as good with movies. So with that said, I want a very detailed and accurate sub not a boom box or one note wonder.
I have heard good things about the HSU's with turbo, my question is does the HSU with turbo sound as detailed and accurate as it does without? Will the sound be boomy or muddy on music with turbo? Will I have to detach the turbo when wanting to play music? Or can I leave the turbo on and set the sub to max output? Do I plug one of the ports on the turbo to tighten things up when wanting to play music? I really don't want to attach and remove all the time. I want to set it up and leave it alone, so the turbo stays on it if I get it.
Is the turbo going to give me deeper extension at the expense of clean and articulate bass?
Thanks for all of your help.

I'm your Huckleberry
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post #639 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schneider View Post

Craigsub, getting back on track......

Have you come up with anything as far as separate rankings/scores for HT vs. music? I'm probably in the minority here in that I listen to more music than most (maybe 30-35% music?), and I don't need the last few extra db/spl. I've always favored fast, articulate bass, going with sealed, servo-controlled subs.

Based on this, I'm leaning towards the JL Fathom 113, but having real trouble justifying the money. I'm hoping that the Submersive compares favorably with music, and might be a bit cheaper. Remember to comment on music listening if you get the chance. PLEASE?

John

John ... You might also look at the ACI Maestro XL. It is not quite as potent as either the Fathom 113, or the Velodyne, but it is close to them both. Musically, it is a GREAT performer, and you need to see one in person to appreciate its looks.

The SUBmersive also looks like an excellent choice - likely outperforming the Maestro XL in sheer numbers ... and knowing Mark Seaton, it will also sound excellent.

Of course, the Fathom 113 is a an absolute BEAST, in performance terms and in music performance.
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post #640 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by new27 View Post


don't assume they don't either

Personally I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

If for no other reason than to keep my own sanity.
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post #641 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:34 AM
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how would my SVS cylinder SVS PC-ultra compare to the VTF-3 HO Subwoofer with Turbocharger?
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post #642 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEFFREY GTS View Post

I posted this over at HSU's website. I figured that it can be answered here too.

I have always heard how musical,accurate and articulate HSU subs are. And even though I would say that I am 70% home theater and 30% music, the first test I always use on a sub is with music. The way I look at it is if a sub performs good with music, it should do just as good with movies. So with that said, I want a very detailed and accurate sub not a boom box or one note wonder.
I have heard good things about the HSU's with turbo, my question is does the HSU with turbo sound as detailed and accurate as it does without? Will the sound be boomy or muddy on music with turbo? Will I have to detach the turbo when wanting to play music? Or can I leave the turbo on and set the sub to max output? Do I plug one of the ports on the turbo to tighten things up when wanting to play music? I really don't want to attach and remove all the time. I want to set it up and leave it alone, so the turbo stays on it if I get it.
Is the turbo going to give me deeper extension at the expense of clean and articulate bass?
Thanks for all of your help.

In our room, the Turbo equipped VTF-3.3/HO is actually even tighter in the deep bass than the non-turbo version. The turbo merely will extend bass deeper with less compression than will the non-turbo equipped sub.

Try it out ... worst case, you send the Turbo back.
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post #643 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schneider View Post

Craigsub, getting back on track......

Have you come up with anything as far as separate rankings/scores for HT vs. music? I'm probably in the minority here in that I listen to more music than most (maybe 30-35% music?), and I don't need the last few extra db/spl. I've always favored fast, articulate bass, going with sealed, servo-controlled subs.

Based on this, I'm leaning towards the JL Fathom 113, but having real trouble justifying the money. I'm hoping that the Submersive compares favorably with music, and might be a bit cheaper. Remember to comment on music listening if you get the chance. PLEASE?

John

I'm 50/50 between music/HT so how a sub performs with music is critical especially with all the music scores in movie soundtracks. Having heard dual JL113s two weeks ago and testing them with various types of music and HT effects, I know you cannot go wrong with those subs. The Fathoms have everything you describe as important and the SPLs for movie effects. Its outstanding in every way and arguably the best sub out there today. Its a tossup sound quality wise between it and the Velo DD-18 but with price considerations its hard not to favour the JLs. I'm looking forward to hearing the Submersive.

John
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post #644 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cajun_Mike View Post

how would my SVS cylinder SVS PC-ultra compare to the VTF-3 HO Subwoofer with Turbocharger?

They are pretty close ... within 4 points in the overall standings. If you already own the Ultra, then keep it. Wait until the new Ultra comes out later this year, and see which works the best for you.

If you are looking to buy one or the other today, I would give the edge to the VTF-3 HO.
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post #645 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

In our room, the Turbo equipped VTF-3.3/HO is actually even tighter in the deep bass than the non-turbo version. The turbo merely will extend bass deeper with less compression than will the non-turbo equipped sub.

Try it out ... worst case, you send the Turbo back.

Craig,

So are you saying that you found the VTF3 MKIII tighter in the deep bass with the turbo set to maximum output or maximum extension? Do you plug the ports on the turbo for music?

I'm your Huckleberry
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post #646 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JEFFREY GTS View Post

Craig,

So are you saying that you found the VTF3 MKIII tighter in the deep bass with the turbo set to maximum output or maximum extension? Do you plug the ports on the turbo for music?

When you run the Turbo, you set the subwoofer to max extension, and leave all ports open. The added length of the turbo allows for both ports to be open, while the subwoofer driver "sees" the same "load" with both ports open on the Turbo equipped sub as it does the non-turbo'ed sub with one port blocked.

When you set the back of the sub to "max-extension, one port", it sets the high-pass filter and amp EQ to that "load".

The difference is that you get twice the air moved through the turbo equipped subwoofer as the non-turbo equipped.

Hopefully, this clears things up a bit.
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post #647 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

When you run the Turbo, you set the subwoofer to max extension, and leave all ports open. The added length of the turbo allows for both ports to be open, while the subwoofer driver "sees" the same "load" with both ports open on the Turbo equipped sub as it does the non-turbo'ed sub with one port blocked.

When you set the back of the sub to "max-extension, one port", it sets the high-pass filter and amp EQ to that "load".

The difference is that you get twice the air moved through the turbo equipped subwoofer as the non-turbo equipped.

Hopefully, this clears things up a bit.

Thanks Craig,

It does. So basically, the best way to use the MKIII with turbo is it set to max extension? Do you ever set it to max output with turbo? Is there any point in doing that? Or just run it max extension with turbo when playing both music and movies?

I'm your Huckleberry
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post #648 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new27 View Post

"Without more facts, I don't think we should assume SVS has anything to do with this."

don't assume they don't either


Why would they.........This is not about SVS

its about an IDIOT posting on here and taking us off topic

Craig is doing great things for all of us and all of the Subwoofer fans of all brands!

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post #649 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:19 AM
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I have to laugh a little regarding the accusations of "plants' here. First if you look , I'd say less than 20% of forum members even give their names let alone all of the potential political,business relationships or friendships they have (let alone folks with multiple accounts). Even if these accusations are true (which I doubt) it is a joke when people are pointing the finger at a behavior which is all but ubiquitos on these forums.

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post #650 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:38 AM
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Sorry Art, I must disagree. Just because behavior is "all but ubiquitous" doesn't render it above criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post

I don't know about agendas, I am looking at various (also old) correspondence with Dr. Hsu, TC Sounds, Tom Danley, Floyd Toole, Riggs, Risch, Nousaine, Deon Bearden and many others.

Did you teach them "everything [they] know" as you did another? Because you "corresponded" with others doesn't necessarily mean your relationship with them is the same as with one you taught "everything I know."

Oh, and by the way, aren't you the one who said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post

...are there any affiliations, business interests, relationships, etc I should know about? Things that could affect matters. That is important to know too.

And:

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Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post

it is very important that alliances, allegiances, affiliations, motivations and so forth are disclosed if credibility as a subwoofer reviewer is considered desireable [sic].

Tell me Stan, doesn't that apply to all of us, including you? Everybody's credibility is subject to scrutiny and, as you say, such disclosure is important so that it can be considered when judging another's credibility. Using your words yet again, "What is wrong with disclosure? IF credibility and the pursuit of truth is considered important it is usually welcomed." With your alleged credentials, I would think you eager to lay them before us to demonstrate credibility. Yet you had to be caught in flagranti dilcito before you disclosed any "alliance," "allegiance," "affiliation," "motivation," business interest," or "relationship." HMMM? Makes one wonder why you would want to hide your relationships.

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post #651 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:39 AM
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Just to be clear, I don't mind seeing questions posed as to the testing methodology. It is the manner and tone of those questions that can turn a well-meaning inquiry into looking like an agenda-laden attack...



Just to ask, the charts posted on the last few pages... I apologize if the measurement methodology has already been posted. But is this from a single split-second moment in the film? Or is it like a "peak hold" at all the frequencies, with peaks over a short span in WotW kept for each frequency? Ie., the max SPL held for 15Hz, 16Hz, 17Hz and so on over a 15-second part of the DVD? And exactly what part of the movie is being measured? I think clarifying this would help people understand how different subwoofers could perform very similarly at certain frequencies, with big discrepancies in SPL at other frequencies.

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #652 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:41 AM
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Craig,

Thanks for all of the work in testing these subs. Call me when you have your garage sale ! haha
I have a question about the VTF2 testing. Were you running it in max output or max extension mode? If you have listened to it in both modes, what are you subjective impressions of the sound in each?

Thanks
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post #653 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Just to be clear, I don't mind seeing questions posed as to the testing methodology. It is the manner and tone of those questions that can turn a well-meaning inquiry into looking like an agenda-laden attack...



Just to ask, the charts posted on the last few pages... I apologize if the measurement methodology has already been posted. But is this from a single split-second moment in the film? Or is it like a "peak hold" at all the frequencies, with peaks over a short span in WotW kept for each frequency? Ie., the max SPL held for 15Hz, 16Hz, 17Hz and so on over a 15-second part of the DVD? And exactly what part of the movie is being measured? I think clarifying this would help people understand how different subwoofers could perform very similarly at certain frequencies, with big discrepancies in SPL at other frequencies.

The scene in question is the battle scene at the beginning of Master and Commander. It starts when Russell Crowe yells "Down, EVERYBODY DOWN when the French ship fires at them, and ends when the English escape into the fog.

I will post the actual time stamps later.

The TrueRTA is left in a peak hold position, in order to capture what is occuring in the subs.

If you want to verify the repeatability of this test, look no further than here :





As the turbo allows deeper bass, with less output in the 22-25 Hz range, while the driver alone handles most of the 30 Hz bass and up, we would expect the response curve from 30-50 Hz to be pretty close.
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post #654 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rijax View Post

Sorry Art, I must disagree. Just because bad behavior is "all but ubiquitous" doesn't render it above criticism.

Who said it's above criticism ? It's just that it looks like some here are acting like they are suddenly appaled that the potential for hidden agendas ,political underpinnings or even hidden sales pitches are new here. People here aren't asked to disqualify themselves very often from a review or rendering an opinion for the simple reason such requests would be a hopeless exercise,especially since the overwhelming majority of membes are anonymous. I'd say conflict of interest is the rule on AVS forums not the exception.

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post #655 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:53 AM
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Great. So that graph's of a single particular cannon blast during that scene? Or max SPL at each frequency over the course of the scene?

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #656 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 10:56 AM
 
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Great. So that graph's of a single particular cannon blast during that scene? Or max SPL at each frequency over the course of the scene?

It is Max SPL over the entire scene.
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post #657 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 11:07 AM
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It is Max SPL over the entire scene.

Okay. That's what I thought. Thanks!

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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cyberbri is offline  
post #658 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 11:23 AM
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Guys, get back on topic. If you want to discuss hidden agendas please do so via PM.

I'm deleting anything else that is OT from here on...

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post #659 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose View Post

Guys, get back on topic. If you want to discuss hidden agendas please do so via PM.

I'm deleting anything else that is OT from here on...

Kudos to you. Lets get back to what really matters. The comparisons between subs.

I'm your Huckleberry
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post #660 of 6764 Old 01-22-2007, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

They are pretty close ... within 4 points in the overall standings. If you already own the Ultra, then keep it. Wait until the new Ultra comes out later this year, and see which works the best for you.

If you are looking to buy one or the other today, I would give the edge to the VTF-3 HO.

Craig, thanks for the response... Do you have any knowledge of the Triad in-room Gold PowerSub? Any chance you might get a sample and test it? It has a 15-inch driver but the 250 watt amp might be a bit light compared to the other subs in this test.

If you have some knowledge of it, how do you think it might stack up on your list? I'm thinking about going with an All Triad speaker system, but wondering if I should keep my SVS PC-ultra cylinder or go with the Triad InRoom Gold PowerSub.
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