Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 03:34 PM
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i currently have a 10" passive sub that im driving with a stereo receiver. this sub pops while watching the incredibles (hardest test for a sub that ive heard) i figured a 12" would be the way to go as to avoid popping in all situations. i figured an 8" of any variety couldnt hold up. please let me know if im mistaken.

FYI shouldve mentioned this before but my room is 15' x 15' with 8' ceilings, and to make things worse it opens into a kitchen/hallway.

Matt




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post #722 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 03:38 PM
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From the testing Craig has done the 8 got a VERY respectable score compared to subs that are 10 and 12 inches (some BIGGER).

Here is the information......don't let that 8inch woofer fool you.........

The first subwoofer in the x-series of speakers and electronics; the x-sub is perfect for smaller home theater and music systems. The x-sub boasts strong output into the high 20 hz region, great attack and decay times and thanks to its folded, slotted porting, virtually no port distortion.

Several connections options allow the x-sub to seamlessly integrate with almost any system:

High level (speaker level) inputs and outputs allow you to connect the x-sub to an integrated amp, pre-amp or older receiver that has no dedicated subwoofer output.

A stereo pair of low level (RCA) inputs allows connection to the variable output of many pre-amps.

A single LFE (RCA) input is the perfect connection to modern receivers and processors. The x-subs' internal crossover is defeated with this connection allowing you to use the bass management in your receiver or processor.

At AV123 sound quality is our #1 priority but we also think that a subwoofer does not have to be ugly to sound good. The x-sub is finished in gorgeous White Shadow Maple and ultra-smooth Satin Black. We exclusively use real wood veneer or high quality paints on all our subwoofers. Even our black speakers stand out from the competition. Exceptionally smooth satin black is the norm here - not at all like the 'orange peel' finishes you see on many other subwoofers.

We use 1" (25mm) MDF to construct the cabinet; no particle board here. When is the last time you saw a small subwoofer at your local electronics store that weighs 38lbs? That quality construction translates into less cabinet resonances and stored energy (cumulative spectral decay) which means what you put into the sub is what comes out and nothing more.

As always, all our products come with a 30 day in home trial period which means you can try out anything you like in your home for 30 days. If it does not meet your expectations, ship it back to us and receive a full refund (less shipping).

3 Year Warranty (including the amplifier).

* Type: Slot ported single-driver system
* Driver: 8" mass loaded woofer
* Amplifier: 150 watts
* Frequency Response: 28Hz - 150Hz +/- 3 dB
* Inputs: Stereo high level input and output. Stereo low level and LFE input.
* Phase Control: 0 and 180
* Size (H x D x W): 17 3/4" x 12 7/8" x 9"
* Weight: 44 lbs. (shipped)
* Other Features: 0-180 phase switch, gain, and crossover adjustments (40Hz - 150Hz), auto-on / standby mode.
* 3 Year Warranty

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post #723 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

Or the Hsu STF-1 for $249 + $20 shipping.

Another great performer in this price range.


I would have said that too, but I think he wants to stay UNDER $250......I didn't want to be that guy who keeps trying to push him to spend more money....(I'm not saying you are, just saying that the HSU is pushing $300 with tax)

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post #724 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tri73 View Post

i currently have a 10" passive sub that im driving with a stereo receiver. this sub pops while watching the incredibles (hardest test for a sub that ive heard) i figured a 12" would be the way to go as to avoid popping in all situations. i figured an 8" of any variety couldnt hold up. please let me know if im mistaken.

That's the problem. It's a passive sub being driven by the receiver, most likely a HTiB receiver. The receiver probably does 20-40w max, if you really look at the specs (100w with 20% or even 5% distortion isn't 100w).

Compare that to a decent powered subwoofer with a dedicated 100w~250w amp (sometimes much higher, for more $).

It's not the size of the woofer that matters. A good 8" sub like the x-sub or STF-1 will kick your passive sub's butt up and down the block.

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #725 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

That's the problem. It's a passive sub being driven by the receiver, most likely a HTiB receiver. The receiver probably does 20-40w max, if you really look at the specs (100w with 20% or even 5% distortion isn't 100w).

Compare that to a decent powered subwoofer with a dedicated 100w~250w amp (sometimes much higher, for more $).

It's not the size of the woofer that matters. A good 8" sub like the x-sub or STF-1 will kick your passive sub's butt up and down the block.


it is powered by an Onkyo TX-8511, a true 100w x2. Power isnt the issue. I realize its the subwoofer, even with 200 watts and a paradigm X-30 dialing it in. it still cant handle the incredibles. I know its not all about the woofer size bc my mains are bookshelfs but i still have a hard time believing an 8" sub can handle the incredibles. does anyone have a X-sub and would be willing to run it through the incredibles? i would like to know what the volume level its at when it struggles.

thanks for all the help this forum is great!

Matt




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post #726 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 04:17 PM
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cyber,
please dont measure my knowledge in stereo based on my post count. I dont feel this was your intention but it came off that way. regardless thanks for the advice.

Matt




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post #727 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 04:32 PM
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Thanks Mr. Bott for not closing this thread. It is a wealth of information and its too bad that some have to act like children. Lets all be on our best behavior.
Thanks Craig again for all your hard work, we all know your not a rocket scientist and just doing the best you can with what you have, but I also know it takes time and money and you are learning a lot and sending it on to those of us who could not afford to do this.
Mike L.
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post #728 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tri73 View Post

it is powered by an Onkyo TX-8511, a true 100w x2. Power isnt the issue. I realize its the subwoofer, even with 200 watts and a paradigm X-30 dialing it in. it still cant handle the incredibles. I know its not all about the woofer size bc my mains are bookshelfs but i still have a hard time believing an 8" sub can handle the incredibles. does anyone have a X-sub and would be willing to run it through the incredibles? i would like to know what the volume level its at when it struggles.

thanks for all the help this forum is great!


What is your subwoofer, and how exactly do you have the sub set up with a 2-channel stereo receiver? What is powering the mains? I don't quite understand your setup.

I assumed it was an HTiB, because usually they are cheap and use the receiver to power a passive sub.

And I said 20-40w max for a HTiB receiver, because most claim 100wpc, but when you look at the high distortion numbers, they are more likely capable of 20-40wpc or so.

Plus, there are different definitions of "handling." And there's a lot more to a subwoofer than merely its size. What exactly do you mean when you say your 10" passive sub "pops"? It makes popping/clicking sounds? Or it's cutting out, distorting heavily?

I used to have an 8" 50w Aiwa "bass module," self-powered. It "handled" movies fine, but there wasn't much bass, I had to place it near my listening position, and the bass was very boomy. Now, the STF-1 is a different story. It has the same exact amp as used by the BIC H-100, which is a 12" subwoofer around the same price, maybe less. They probably have about the same extension, give or take a few Hz. I would take the STF-1 over a crappy 12" sub - not that the H-100 is bad (I've owned it, it's pretty decent), but I mean like the $100~150 12" subs out there that put out one-noted boomy bass.

I think you'd be extremely surprised at what a good quality 8" sub, like the STF-1 or x-sub is capable of.


And BTW, I didn't even notice your post count. I'm not trying to come off one way or the other. I'm just trying to help. I apologize if my tone seems short or whatever. But passive subs, especially ones that need to be powered by a receiver, are usually from HTiBs. There are larger, much more $ subs that have outboard amps, but that's a different story.

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #729 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

I would have said that too, but I think he wants to stay UNDER $250......I didn't want to be that guy who keeps trying to push him to spend more money....(I'm not saying you are, just saying that the HSU is pushing $300 with tax)

Opps, missed that. I usually make a point of not exceeding someone else's budget. (Not always so scrupulous with my own! ) I don't think there is any tax, though, unless he is from California. (Maybe I missed that too.)

tri73, I haven't tried The Incredibles, but I did play chapters 5 and 6 of War of the Worlds (my acid test) on my bedroom STF-1 earlier today. It's in almost the same sized room as yours, but with only two normal doorways. It was just a test for my curiosity, so all I did was play it at the same levels as I do my HT, about 95-100dB peak. Never tried to find out how far I could push it, just making a comparison for my own interest immediately after listening to the same chapters on my main system.

The STF-1 passed without any sign of strain.

FWIW, I have two subs in my HT, one of which is a vintage M&K 15" passive (high end in it's day) driven by a metered 200w+ amp. This amp starts to clip on these chapters, played at the same volume level. (It's a bigger room, but it is the secondary sub, primarily there to help smooth response. The primary sub is an SVS 16-46 PC-Plus.)

The little STF-1 also displayed a smoother response curve on my SMS-1 than the M&K when measured in the same spot, with at least equal extension! In the bedroom, it measured -3dB at 28Hz, -6 at 25 (uncorrected RS SPL meter readings).

It's performance has clearly exceeded my expectations.

I'll try The Incredibles tomorrow, if you give me the reference chapter you use, and the SPL you expect.
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post #730 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 05:32 PM
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My old setup was Onkyo tx-8511 with crap sony speakers and a 10" cerwin vega passive sub.

my new setup is a denon 687 with 4 Paradigm Mini Monitors v5 and a CC-290 v5 with the passive sub being powered by the Onkyo 8511. The sub is hooked up through the sub out on the Denon into the X-30 then to the Onkyo finally the sub. It does pretty well for what it is but doesnt survive tough movies like the incredibles or WOTW (never heard it on my stuff). as for an spl goal im not really sure i dont have a meter. I would guess 90db to 100db, all i know for sure is it pops at a level that doesnt even begin to push my paradigms. Im not sure on the scenes for the incredibles ill get back to you on that. thank you

p.s. My system handles U571 depth charge scene fine. maybe all i need for now is to hook up an EQ for the subsonic filter. the sub cant do it anyway.

Matt




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post #731 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 05:41 PM
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So the Denon 687's sub out put is fed to the old Onkyo 8511, which runs the passive Cerwin Vega sub? I got it now.

Again, the issue is just that the sub isn't up to the task. I don't know what the popping is (clicking at random? or just during heavy bass scenes? distortion?), but it could be due to the sub, maybe even the connections/receiver running the sub.

With that nice new receiver and Paradigms, they deserve a shiny new sub to go with them. Don't waste your money on an eq for a crappy sub. Use it to get a new sub.

Like I have said and others have said, it's not the size of the woofer. Both the STF-1 and the x-sub would surprise the heck out of you. To get more output, especially deeper, jump up to a 10" or 12" (HSU, AV123, etc.). The 12" HSU VTF-2 MK3 is an amazing deal.

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #732 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 05:50 PM
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it pops during heavy bass scenes. so if you were to choose which would you pick? the x-sub says it goes a bit lower... i would be crossing any choice at 80Hz

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post #733 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 05:57 PM
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They're so close, either would be great. Do you have size/space limitations? Do looks matter?

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #734 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 06:00 PM
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no and no

Matt




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post #735 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

I'll try The Incredibles tomorrow, if you give me the reference chapter you use, and the SPL you expect.



Incredibles: there are many scenes but these are the worst.

Chapter 17, 1:09 to 1:10
Chapter 9, 0:37 to end of scene
Chapter 15, 0:58 to 0:59


These scenes make my current makeshift sub pop (not distort) ridiculously. A sub must pass these tests at "loud volume" without noticeable distortion. This is why i figured i neeed a 12" woofer but we'll see what you come up with. Thank you very much for running this for me.

Matt




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post #736 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 07:05 PM
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Well for the FIRST TIME I think I reached the limits of my PB-12NSD.

The scene that is HUGE at 22hz in THE HAUNTING where she says "its cold" I could REALLY hear port noise from the HUGE amount of air that the sub was pushing........Everyone knows the CHUUUFFFFFFFING sound....


can ANYONE else with a PB-12 and The Haunting DTS chime in.....or really anyone else who has this movie and knows the scene I'm speaking of...

I'm refering to the LARGE PINK DOT ALL BY ITSELF towards the middle of the waterfall chart....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nting_cold.jpg

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post #737 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 07:34 PM
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bjillyjcu,
That chart indeed looks challenging. Can you measure the SPL you observe at the listening position when you push the sub to it's limits? I am interested to know the limitations of the PB-12NSD. Also can you post your room dimensions, how leaky and how far away is your listening position from the sub and if the sub is corner loaded. Sorry, if this is already posted somewhere else.
Thanks,
-Jai
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post #738 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 07:47 PM
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Sorry guys, I like reading this thread for what it was. How did this become a support thread? Please take some of these discussions to another thread.

Randy
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post #739 of 6764 Old 01-24-2007, 07:59 PM
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Well everyone I got it, my HSU VTF-2.3 came today a day early I won't have time to hook it up until tomorrow after work bummer I can't wait I hope it does blow me away I'll post then
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post #740 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

Sorry guys, I like reading this thread for what it was. How did this become a support thread? Please take some of these discussions to another thread.


I was thinking the same thing. How did it get so far off topic?


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post #741 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

Sorry guys, I like reading this thread for what it was. How did this become a support thread? Please take some of these discussions to another thread.


sorry, guess that is my fault. i will revise my question and leave it at that.

craig,
you ranked the x-sub at 78 pts. have you heard the BIC H-100 or STF-1? Are either of these over 78 pts? Which do you recommend?

sorry again for going off topic.

Matt




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post #742 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 06:59 AM
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Tri73 I think their comments were aimed at me for posting about the Haunting and my PB-12nsd performance.....I thought it was actually VERY relavent to this topic based on performace of the sub, the output and response.......

My hope was to have others try this scene out with their subs....namely HSU owners (2.3, 3.2, 3.3, HO owners with Turbo or Non-Turbo) and SVS owners (pb-12, plus series, and Ultra Series).......but really ANYONE with a sub that we have talked about in the 25pages...

This specific DTS soundtrack was actually special for this movie.........it was designed for real subwoofers......I think this scene would be a VERY VERY good testing scene (like Master and Commander) for anyone to use, including Craig if he has access to this DTS version.

I'm sorry if you felt this was taking us away from Sub rankings, but I really actually thought this might help us to explore the subs performace even more.


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post #743 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Tri73 I think their comments were aimed at me for posting about the Haunting and my PB-12nsd performance.....I thought it was actually VERY relavent to this topic based on performace of the sub, the output and response.......

My hope was to have others try this scene out with their subs....namely HSU owners (2.3, 3.2, 3.3, HO owners with Turbo or Non-Turbo) and SVS owners (pb-12, plus series, and Ultra Series).......but really ANYONE with a sub that we have talked about in the 25pages...

This specific DTS soundtrack was actually special for this movie.........it was designed for real subwoofers......I think this scene would be a VERY VERY good testing scene (like Master and Commander) for anyone to use, including Craig if he has access to this DTS version.

I'm sorry if you felt this was taking us away from Sub rankings, but I really actually thought this might help us to explore the subs performace even more.


I think its a good idea to have specific scenes from specfic DVD's (DTS vs DD) that several of us have access to so that there is a common reference, and this is one of my favorites.

Why? Because it is one of two scenes that I know of that my sub (older Velo F1500r) just can't handle. (The other is a club scene from Blade II). Now there are many other scenes that I don't get the SPL I'd like, but this is a real easy way to evaluate (read eliminate) the less capable subs. With a really good sub, it blows me away - the only time that has happened so far was with a Velo HGS18 in a B&W 801 Nautlis system. $$$$

It might be a little off topic, but it helps to keep the thread active without going too far astray.
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post #744 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 08:05 AM
 
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Guys - I have been in meetings for the past day - looks like some interesting stuff is going on here. Some thoughts ....

1. MRL - Actually, I was a Physics major in college ... but the pay SUCKED. Now, as mentioned by fellow AVSer tdekaney, I sell cars ... ... Seriously, I do find the "thesaurus mentality" which some reviewers use to be rather silly.

2. The Haunting looks like a great demo disc ... I need to buy it.

3. The location being used to place the subwoofer yields exceptional results. The room is 44 feet long, 14 feet wide, with 7 foot ceilings using scoustic tiles. Three walls are all concrete, with all having thick insulation behind drywall. There is also a stairway splitting the room. Guys like jakeman, Bossobass, Rijax ... etal ... have been in this room. They know the characteristics of the room. It was built with a hign end system in mind.

Mr. Bott made a good point about moving the subwoofer 2 feet, and getting different results. This is why we are so careful to place each sub so it is centered properly in the location used. Those who are wondering about the reliability of what we are measuring here need to look at the graphs as posted.

If we were having issues with room acoustics, we would not have the success we have had with the graphs looking like they do.

4. The BIC sub has gotten pretty good reviews from those who have had it ... I have not experienced it, but think it would be a good choice.

The STF-1 really is about a match for the X-sub ... It is residing at my dealership partner's home ... and really is a close match for the X-sub. I have no issue calling it a 78, essentially matching the X-sub.

Speaking of getting off track .... That SVS "subwoofer-room" product looks to be a really good product. I cannot WAIT to get it and a new Ultra here.
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post #745 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 08:19 AM
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Guys I wrote about this in another thread, but the sandstorm/crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix gives your sub a real test as well. It was actually the first (and only actually) scene that caused my PB12-Plus/2 to bottom out when tuned at 20hz. I since changed it to 25hz tuning and I do not get any bottoming out as suggested by SVS service techs. There's one note I believe at 15:45-15:51 (about 6 seconds) when the plane is losing altitude and the passengers are screaming that is very loud and sustained; this is the note that bottomed out my SVS. Anyway Tom from SVS told me that that scene (and note) is one of the most demanding scenes for a subwoofer on any DVD to this day. So for those of you that have not tried this out yet, I highly suggest you give this scene a go.
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post #746 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post

Guys I wrote about this in another thread, but the sandstorm/crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix gives your sub a real test as well. It was actually the first (and only actually) scene that caused my PB12-Plus/2 to bottom out when tuned at 20hz. I since changed it to 25hz tuning and I do not get any bottoming out as suggested by SVS service techs. There's one note I believe at 15:45-15:51 (about 6 seconds) when the plane is losing altitude and the passengers are screaming that is very loud and sustained; this is the note that bottomed out my SVS. Anyway Tom from SVS told me that that scene (and note) is one of the most demanding scenes for a subwoofer on any DVD to this day. So for those of you that have not tried this out yet, I highly suggest you give this scene a go.

That is the "note" that is designed to give you the feeling of pressure inside the plane. It is a very demanding passage.... especially at high volumes.

The note during the knocking scene in The Haunting where the cold enters the room and they say "can you feel that" is also very demanding and very low.

-Eli

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post #747 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 09:04 AM
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The note during the knocking scene in The Haunting where the cold enters the room and they say "can you feel that" is also very demanding and very low.

-Eli

I have been talking about that for here for like 2 days...LOL I actually copy and pasted the chart from the waterfall thread for us!

a HUGE 22hz SIGNAL that really is something massive!

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post #748 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 09:10 AM
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Guys I wrote about this in another thread, but the sandstorm/crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix gives your sub a real test as well. It was actually the first (and only actually) scene that caused my PB12-Plus/2 to bottom out when tuned at 20hz. I since changed it to 25hz tuning and I do not get any bottoming out as suggested by SVS service techs. There's one note I believe at 15:45-15:51 (about 6 seconds) when the plane is losing altitude and the passengers are screaming that is very loud and sustained; this is the note that bottomed out my SVS. Anyway Tom from SVS told me that that scene (and note) is one of the most demanding scenes for a subwoofer on any DVD to this day. So for those of you that have not tried this out yet, I highly suggest you give this scene a go.

Good choice for a torture track and I included it in a custom sub tester DVD disc I made of bass heavy scenes . That FOTP scene more than any other would cause my Ultra to bottom. Got to say despite all the bottoming that sub endured from driving it hard in a large open space, it just keeps on ticking to this day without any lasting effect. Its well built.

John
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post #749 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 09:59 AM
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Sorry if this offends anyone. I didn't take the intent of this tread to exclude testing and/or comparisons by anyone other than craigsub (although his are much better than mine or most others).

Anyway, I did check out The Incredibles scenes tri73 mentioned.

At 95-100dB, I couldn't make the STF-1 pop on any of them.

Mine is carefully calibrated flat, not hot (mostly used to listen to classical music, not movies), so I didn't want to change its settings. To try to approximate what might happen under greater stress I turned the main speakers off and played the STF-1 by itself. I still could not make it pop, but once I did incur some minor chuffing (not consistently repeatable) that would have been masked by the mains if they were on. Clearly, a limiter comes into play before audible distress occurs, because I couldn't push the sub over 100dB.

Mine is located at the center of a side wall, about the worst possible location for boundary reinforcement, so it might manage more output in other rooms. It's also a little closer to the wall than Hsu recommends, which might have helped induce the chuffing. (I didn't think to move it out.)

Nonetheless, in my small 15 X 15 BR, I think the STF-1 comes closer to a top level sub's perfomance than craigsub's estimated 78 rating implies. But it can't deliver the last few Hz, and in a bigger room, it couldn't keep up with most of the big boys he tests.
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post #750 of 6764 Old 01-25-2007, 10:21 AM
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Anyway, I did check out The Incredibles scenes tri73 mentioned.

At 95-100dB, I couldn't make the STF-1 pop on any of them.

.

thank you very much for running that for me. Im buying the X-sub for my home theatre and, like you, using it in a bedroom stereo once i save up for a "True Sub". Thank you all for the help. i will report back with my impessions.

Matt




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