Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #811 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

How Old are you???? Who in their adult mind would spell the words how come as howcum.

There is no way that an intelligent ADULT can misspell the word COME for CUM....

I'm seriously doubting any thread of intelligence on your end, rather, just the need to spark doubt on things and stir up problems.

If you don't like my posts....then please leave!

Let's not start this again.

Either add him to your ignore list, or just ignore him.

Don't take personal shots - we'll all lose.
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post #812 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post



I've been known to misspell words and make grammatical errors when I write my papers... So bad, that I have pressed the edit button 4 times to write this post. Though I'm not the brightest bulb in the shed, I don't think it is a fair indication of my intelligence.



Seriously....i can see a misspelling, but CUM for COME? How could one POSSIBLY make that mistake by mistake! LOL

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post #813 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Seriously....i can see a misspelling, but CUM for COME? How could one POSSIBLY make that mistake by mistake! LOL

Actually, sjmarcy is no spring chicken. Nor am I. Back in the day (ours) "howcum" was common in the vernacular. It wasn't misspelling, per se, it was just informal usage. It probably never occurred to him that "cum" has acquired a meaning in current usage by younger people that it never had back then.
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post #814 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post

Sure I could do that. But if a reviewer claims a sub suddenly cuts it's output so massively when 3 more dB of input are added then this begs the question is the sub broken or not, design issue or not, do they all do this, etc. If it is broken then how can that be ascertained if I buy and test a different subwoofer? It seems to me that it would make more sense to test the one whose behavior was so greatly different than other tested devices. I am concerned when asking such things leads to efforts to ban someone like me, and a series of attacks across various forums besides this one. It sends the message that noone can discuss this matter and that hand claps are the only suitable responce. So in effect a sub that ran into a design issue, or broke, or a test issue seems to have uncovered a larger issue here. The fact that these tests/ratings cannot be discussed in an open manner without a person risking attacks. I received many PMs and emails about this matter confirming these concerns. For example if a reviewer finds himself banned at other forums (such as Craigsub) after testing a sub from a certain manufacturer...and then runs into various "issues" with subs from that manufacturer it presents concerns about conflicts of interest and motivations that harm credibility.


What makes YOU so special he should send HIS OWN sub to you? If that was your concern, why not advise him to contact SVS and see about getting a replacement?

And conversely, being banned at a certain forum for test results of a certain manufacturer's product could ALSO indicate that the manufacturer in question was not happy with the results and put pressure on the owners of the forum in question. Websites and forums run on advertising dollars...
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post #815 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post


Reviewer Craigsub

Perhaps a disclaimer on these tests is needed so that matters are clearer to more members. Things like this, but not just this concern me in this murky series of tests and ratings which members use to evaluate their options.

Here we go again ...... now your just making up condescending BS ..... since when has Craigsub ever stated he is "a reviewer"? Like all true audio enthusiasts he is just giving his "opinions" on what he has found. People would be absolutely foolish to rush out and buy (or discount) based on "one mans opinion".

If you are so concerned about Craig's tests and reports why don't you purchase all the same subwoofers he has ..... and then you can report your own opinion. That would earn you far more respect than just trying to discredit someone who is just giving his opinion (after spending considerable personal time and money)

Audio reproduction is just like our individual taste in food "it varies" and unless your just an SPL Junkie there is "NO Ultimate Numerical Buyers Guide" to finding the best subwoofer for you (regardless of all the theory). Listening and directly comparing your contenders is the only way to be 100% positive that you will make the right choice for you.

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post #816 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Seriously....i can see a misspelling, but CUM for COME? How could one POSSIBLY make that mistake by mistake! LOL

When I read thewords howcum it didn't even occur to me that some would think it was a mistake. Have used howcum as slang for over 60 years. When I read your comment I googled howcum and found 40 pages of topics where someone had used that word (granted not all of them would be used in polite company). I hope we can get back to reading about subs. Thanks everyone for the great education. Howcum it took me so long to find this site?

Best
Ray
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post #817 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 12:10 PM
 
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Does anyone else find the humor in this: A bunch of guys talking about subwoofers, and the conversation turning to the word "cum" ????

Howcum did that happen ?
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post #818 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Seriously....i can see a misspelling, but CUM for COME? How could one POSSIBLY make that mistake by mistake! LOL

I'm about ready to start ignoring you at this point.
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post #819 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Does anyone else find the humor in this: A bunch of guys talking about subwoofers, and the conversation turning to the word "cum" ????

Howcum did that happen ?

Craig, you've been running too many tests. Time for a break and a beverage.

John
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post #820 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 12:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

Craig, you've been running too many tests. Time for a break and a beverage.

Agreed ... Tonight it will be a movie, some 40 year old burboun, and did I mention burboun ?
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post #821 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 12:38 PM
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mmmmmm.... bourbon.

Life is good.
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post #822 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 12:38 PM
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How many of you here have a PhD or ThD?
I mean "Permanent Head Damage" or "Temporary Head Damage"?
I have a ThD because I come here every so often not always, especially when I have upgraditis . It is nice and sunny outside and I am reading these forums, especially this thread and the vernacular, on a nice Saturday morning and that is a sign of ThD. Get out of your seats gentlemen. Go out and have some fun or go enjoy your system! Let's all relax
I am outta here!
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post #823 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 12:46 PM
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GUYS! PLS STOP THE AGGRESSIONS!!! SJMARCY DID NOT MEAN ANYTHING RELATED TO THAT "CUM", BUT THIS IS ONLY A "SPOKEN-WRITTEN" LANGUAGE, AND THIS "HOWCUM" EXPRESSION CAN BE FOUND IN MANY FORUMS.....

SJMARCY seems to be a knowledgeable guy, but has maybe jumped into this thread with quite direct, non-diplomatic quotes (IMO) in an aggressive fashion. Many of you have expressed refusal for his attitude.... OK! I think your messages were well received, But if SJMARCY has any questions/queries like this HOWCUM, why not take it seriously.... this may lead to answers which would help us all understand things from Guys who may have answers....

TO SJMARCY:

Craigsub is a GREAT guy, and also a knowledgeable guy, doing effort, spending money and time, for that has to be respected (indeed he has never claimed to be a Sub reviewer, but all of us are just discussing and exchanging opinions and experience). I think that it is not your questions which are upsetting guys here, but maybe the way they are asked.... I think "smoothing", and "reducing the tone" your post could lead to a better and constructive involvement in this thread....
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post #824 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rockemsockem View Post

I'm about ready to start ignoring you at this point.

You are right, I'm sorry...

BACK TO SUBWOOFERS for GOOD

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post #825 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 05:57 PM
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I really wish a moderator would come in here and delete 90% of the posts in this thread, it has gotten so off topic that it's ridiculous and is becoming yet another thread where one has to sift through now some 825 posts to find the 40 or 50 really good, really useful ones.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #826 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I really wish a moderator would come in here and delete 90% of the posts in this thread, it has gotten so off topic that it's ridiculous and is becoming yet another thread where one has to sift through now some 825 posts to find the 40 or 50 really good, really useful ones.

Agreed! If you are not interested in this thread or do not agree with Craig's rankings, opinions, measurements, techniques, comments, etc. etc. why are you posting?

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post #827 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 06:51 PM
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I agree. this bickering is pointless and annoying to sort through. please everyone realize that this is craigsub's opinion/graphs. if you do or dont agree thats fine, i dont think he cares. after all the title of this thread is "Official Craigsub rankings thread" not the "Everyone bicker about how they think craig should test HIS stuff" thread. i have read this entire thread and have yet to read a post from craig saying that this is the only correct way to test a sub. everyone relax

Matt



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post #828 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I really wish a moderator would come in here and delete 90% of the posts in this thread, it has gotten so off topic that it's ridiculous and is becoming yet another thread where one has to sift through now some 825 posts to find the 40 or 50 really good, really useful ones.

amen
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post #829 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

John ... Based on the experience with the PB12 ... I think the limiter does a great job. I mentioned this earlier, but thought re-stating this would be important. I REALLY pushed the PB12 to see how hard it could hit @ 20 Hz ... had I tried this with the VTF-2.3, I probably would have destroyed the driver.

The protection circuitry in the PB12 makes it totally ... for lack of a better term, "idiot proof". When you think about a relatively entry level sub ... bullet proof makes sense.

That being said ... kudos for following Loworder's post. It was extremely well written. And very ... smart ...


So the VTF2.3 has no protection so to speak? You could turn it up to much and heart the driver? Interesting, I would think that all subs would have some kind of circuit to protect the driver.
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post #830 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 08:09 PM
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Craig and everyone,
As much fun as this has been, can we now move on. Time to pick a couple other subs to measure. No HSU, no SVS. Please start a new thread and let this one die an undignified death. How about a high end comparo between a Bose Acoustimass and a Dayton 10" kit. That ought to get some juices flowing.

Randy
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post #831 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 09:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Echomalinois View Post

So the VTF2.3 has no protection so to speak? You could turn it up to much and heart the driver? Interesting, I would think that all subs would have some kind of circuit to protect the driver.

The VTF-2.3 has very good protection. However, one must still exercise some restraint with it, or damage can occur.

I am going to be rather blunt here, and not ameliorate the following with humor.

Many people have noted that I don't get paid to do this. They are right. I have been offered "jobs" to review audio components. Each of these jobs has been turned down. I have no interest in someone paying me. That entitles that person to tell me what I can and cannot say.

I don't care who wins or loses these comparisons. In fact, I don't even view it as a win or lose. Let's look at the JL Audio Fathom 113. I have mentioned in many past thread that I might eventually enter the audio world professionally. By definition, professional means one gets paid. JL works strictly through a small body of exclusive dealers, and there is no chance that they would work in any sales model with which I would be involved.

That is irrelevant to the performance of their subwoofers. They make a fantastic subwoofer, and do so for a reasonable price. If I ever see the right opportunity to enter the field, it would not change my opinion of the JL product line.

I have the priviledge of having some fantastic products here for review, with more on tap for future review. For the most part, it is enjoyable.

To those who enjoy this process, and respond in a positive manner, thank you.

To those who post unwarranted attacks, please, do everyone a favor, and start a separate thread. When you open this thread, be specific in your complaint. Tell everyone using facts what the problem is. From that point, we can move forward.

Thanks for indulging me.
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post #832 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

To those who enjoy this process, and respond in a positive manner, thank you.

What about those that are just freaking jealous...like me?

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post #833 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 09:39 PM
 
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What about those that are just freaking jealous...like me?

We send you on a drinking trip with Kipp Jones, of course.
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post #834 of 6764 Old 01-27-2007, 11:03 PM
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25 years ago I did an equalized reflex system with my Altec Voice of the Theater dual 15 inch woofers in 10 cubic foot boxes and had measurable output to 8 hz (which you can "hear" at least I can "hear") Driven with a meager 90 watt SAE receiver I never did crank them all the way up as the 16 foot window wall in the room seemed in jeopardy. Of course those drivers were rated 106 dB one watt one meter, each.

I would love to hear some of these newer wonder boxes.

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post #835 of 6764 Old 01-28-2007, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The VTF-2.3 has very good protection. However, one must still exercise some restraint with it, or damage can occur.


what is meant by "pretty good protection?" does it have the same filter the pb-12 does or something else?

Matt



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post #836 of 6764 Old 01-28-2007, 05:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tri73 View Post

what is meant by "pretty good protection?" does it have the same filter the pb-12 does or something else?

By "pretty good" protection, it means that you have to almost TRY to damage the VTF-2.3 in order to cause harm. As long as someone uses common sense, the VTF-2.3 will be a great product. But, if you are abusive, you can damage the driver.
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post #837 of 6764 Old 01-28-2007, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Are you sure? I saw the plate pics and didn't find any switch there. Unless the amp is programmed that way or there are passive filters installed. You may want to check with Tom regarding this. Or maybe someone else here might know if the natural roll-off puts undue stress on the driver at the subsonics.
-Jai


Got it....here is the convo with Ed. I think it helps explain how the Subsonic filter actually works for the PB-12NSD...

*********Room gain (theoretically a 12 dB/octave transfer function at best and usually less) can only help a bass reflex subwoofer with a high pass (subsonic) filter so much.

The subwoofer is rolling off at ~36 dB/octave below tuning, and room gain might shave-off 7-10 dB/octave, so you are still rolling off at 26-29 dB/octave, even with room gain factored in. That means your response will drop from 26-29 dB from 18 Hz to 9 Hz.************

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post #838 of 6764 Old 01-28-2007, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tri73 View Post

what is meant by "pretty good protection?" does it have the same filter the pb-12 does or something else?

That's a question I've been mulling over since the comparative graphs and pondering after the responses from LowOrder, Ed and Mark. What is clear from the graphs is that implementation of the limiter is another one of those design decisions which clearly impacts performance. How much is "pretty good protection" and how much is "overaggresive protection"? Without running more tests its tough to say, but Craig was pushing both subs hard yet one did a reasonable reproduction of the soundtrack across the scene and the other compressed the 45HZ peak by a huge amount.

The question is not so much about the type of limiter or whether that limiter was functioning properly. Rather its whether the peak limiters which have adjustable parameters for attack/sustain duration and continuous/peak power levels have been "overadjusted" in the design of the PB12-NSD in trying to make it damage-proof. Yes its hard to conclude definitely but that appears to be the case based on the data and explanations provided so far. Design "flaw" or design "overcautiousness", call it what you like.

John
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post #839 of 6764 Old 01-28-2007, 07:21 AM
 
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Right now, there still seems to be some confusion about the PB12-NSD. The limiter in it is not over cautious, nor is it a design flaw. There is also nothing wrong with the PB12 which we have here.

Let's check out three graphs again ... The PB12 Original, where the limiter engaged rather aggressively, the 2nd PB12 graph, where the level increase stopped just before engaging the limiter, and the VTF-3.3.

We have heard the reports that the VTF-3.3 will deliver, according to the Sensible Sound review, a high level of SPL than will a PC-Ultra.

The PC-Ultra will also deliver higher SPL than will a PB12-NSD.

When I ran these scenes, I was looking specifically at the 20 Hz region for output, and was increasing SPL until it was audibly overloading during the peak scenes.

The PB12 never had any audible distress ... so I kept increasing the SPL until it would deliver no higher dB levels @ 20 Hz.

The VTF-3.3 (and 2.3) will start to have audible distress as it nears its limits ... so you reach a point where you know "It is Time to stop".

Let's look at the graphs again, and keep in mind that the PB12 SHOULD deliver a lower level of SPL than the Turbo-equipped VTF-3.3

Original PB12-NSD graph:



VTF-3.3 with Turbo graph:



Second PB12-NSD graph. Note - This was taken AFTER the original. If the sub was not working properly, this graph would not have occured.



According to Howard Ferstler, when He tested the PC-Ultra, it delivered 106 dB in his room @ 20 Hz before he heard port noise. This means it may have had 1-2 dB additional SPL output before compressing ... but he stops when he hears port noise.

The VTF-3.3 delivered 112 dB with Turbo @ 20 Hz.

The first graph of the PB12-NSD has it delivering about 102 dB @ 20 Hz into our room ... vs. 104 dB for the VTF-3.3 ... Do the math, and it is pretty clear that the PB12 was being heavily taxed. Think about it ... If the PC Ultra is appx. 4 dB (an estimate) lower in SPL than is the VTF-3.3 + turbo, the PB12-NSD will be more than 2 dB lower than the Hsu.

The second graph has the PB12 delivering about 5 dB lower SPL @ 20 Hz ... and at this level the unit stay quite linear.... look at the difference in the mid bass levels.

Hopefully .. this clears up this issue.
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post #840 of 6764 Old 01-28-2007, 07:53 AM
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Thanks for the explanation, craig. I thought it was clear awhile ago though. Oh well.

- Jon
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