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post #541 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 09:05 AM
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Holy cow... this is going to be complicated. Really not for the faint of heart is it! I guess my question is, on my 9.8 if I run Audessy first as requested then doesn't that set the individual trim levels to 75db?
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post #542 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtwstr View Post

Holy cow... this is going to be complicated. Really not for the faint of heart is it! I guess my question is, on my 9.8 if I run Audessy first as requested then doesn't that set the individual trim levels to 75db?

The 9.8 does not have Audyssey Dynamic EQ (or Dynamic Volume) so it's version of MultEQ XT does not calibrate "0" (or whatever volume control setting represents "reference") to reference level.
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post #543 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Depending on the distance between the subs and the room size and the overlapping modal responses - yes there will be anywhere from 3-6 dB of acoustic coupling between two given subwoofers. The amount of coupling is also frequency dependent of course.

Worst case is you'll get an average of +3 dB from each pair, which would put your recommended AVR trim level right around 0. Best case is +6 dB from each pair, which will put your AVR trim level right around -6. So 69 dB for each subwoofer still works when running quads.

But if we would like a boost of our now-flat response subs' level, we can still go in the pre/pro and up the LFE channel, correct? Audyssey on my Onkyo 885 does a good job of flattening response, but it cuts the level way low, which I do not like at all.
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post #544 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The 9.8 does not have Audyssey Dynamic EQ (or Dynamic Volume) so it's version of MultEQ XT does not calibrate "0" (or whatever volume control setting represents "reference") to reference level.

Really? What the heck does it calibrate to then? Guess I need to figure it all out.
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post #545 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtwstr View Post

Really? What the heck does it calibrate to then? Guess I need to figure it all out.

The gear without DEQ/DV corrects the room/system and equalizes it to the target curve of the systems used in movie sound stages. And it balances the levels of the channels. The gear with DEQ/DV does that and the volume control position that represents reference level *is* reference volume level. DEQ keys off of reference and boosts highs and lows according to the changes in response of human hearing as the volume reduces from reference.

At least that's how I understand it.
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post #546 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 10:40 AM
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If your AVR is Dolby Reference, it should auto-calibrate to 75 dB. We want you to make sure anyway, though - because it's critical in order to obtain an accurate subwoofer trim level from the AS-EQ1.

Going through the remainder of the channels and checking their levels is more for the individual who hasn't calibrated the AVR at all yet, or who is running a non-Dolby Reference AVR and needs to reset all channel levels to 75 dB before proceeding.

Yes - after level matching and EQ routines are run and the correct/flat/reference sub trim level has been inputted by the user - the sub channel level can then of course be run hotter or cooler at the discretion of the user. But it's important to know what the baseline/reference sub trim level is first before deviating hotter/cooler.

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post #547 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

If your AVR is Dolby Reference, it should auto-calibrate to 75 dB. We want you to make sure anyway, though - because it's critical in order to obtain an accurate subwoofer trim level from the AS-EQ1.

Going through the remainder of the channels and checking their levels is more for the individual who hasn't calibrated the AVR at all yet, or who is running a non-Dolby Reference AVR and needs to reset all channel levels to 75 dB before proceeding.

Yes - after level matching and EQ routines are run and the correct/flat/reference sub trim level has been inputted by the user - the sub channel level can then of course be run hotter or cooler at the discretion of the user. But it's important to know what the baseline/reference sub trim level is first before deviating hotter/cooler.

For those of us with an Audyssey version w/o DEQ, does Audyssey setup use Dolby Reference?
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post #548 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 10:50 AM
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Huh. So without DEQ, we need to run Audessy. Then we need to use the EQ-1 on every channel to put that at reference level (75db). I assume we would do with defeating all processing (Direct In?). Then we would go back to the original and calibrate the sub(s). Hrmmm... I really need to dig into my Integra before this comes so I understand it.
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post #549 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtwstr View Post

Huh. So without DEQ, we need to run Audessy. Then we need to use the EQ-1 on every channel to put that at reference level (75db). I assume we would do with defeating all processing (Direct In?). Then we would go back to the original and calibrate the sub(s). Hrmmm... I really need to dig into my Integra before this comes so I understand it.

we'll know when ed answers . .
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post #550 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

For those of us with an Audyssey version w/o DEQ, does Audyssey setup use Dolby Reference?

All Audyssey equipped AVRs are Dolby Reference at Master Volume 0.0. You'll want to disable DEQ just to be sure, but it should be almost off anyway at 0.0 (it has the most effect at lower master volume settings).

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post #551 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtwstr View Post

Huh. So without DEQ, we need to run Audessy. Then we need to use the EQ-1 on every channel to put that at reference level (75db). I assume we would do with defeating all processing (Direct In?). Then we would go back to the original and calibrate the sub(s). Hrmmm... I really need to dig into my Integra before this comes so I understand it.

If you run MultEQ XT on the Integra (the first step in setting up the AS-EQ1), all channels will be close to 75 dB at master volume 0.0. You can do a quick check to make sure. Then set the subwoofer to 75 dB and let the AS-EQ1 do its thing. Then enter the subwoofer trim value into the AVR.

Unless there is a hefty EQ file, the trim level should always end-up pretty close to 0, and if you are running duals it won't be much more negative than -6. So you'll always be in the 0 to -6 sweet spot of the sub channel level - no pre-out clipping and auto-on circuits behave nicely.

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post #552 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 12:03 PM
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Well that certainly makes life simpler!
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post #553 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 12:12 PM
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Also, the reason we want users to double check and if necessary adjust the SPL, is because the set-up mics used for AVR calibration and the AS-EQ1 may not have the same exact absolute SPL (none of them are really better than +/2 dB from absolute SPL).

So all we really need to establish is the same relative SPL between the speakers and the subwoofer in order to generate the correct subwoofer trim level. That's why it's important to run through the level matching step - it ensures you nail an accurate baseline sub trim level.

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post #554 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 12:15 PM
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Gotcha. Thanks Ed! Now I just need to occupy my time for the next month and a half...
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post #555 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Also, the reason we want users to double check and if necessary adjust the SPL, is because the set-up mics used for AVR calibration and the AS-EQ1 may not have the same exact absolute SPL (none of them are really better than +/2 dB from absolute SPL).

So all we really need to establish is the same relative SPL between the speakers and the subwoofer in order to generate the correct subwoofer trim level. That's why it's important to run through the level matching step - it ensures you nail an accurate baseline sub trim level.

I saw several warnings about using the supplied mic, but can a different calibration file be loaded to use a different mic?
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post #556 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I saw several warnings about using the supplied mic, but can a different calibration file be loaded to use a different mic?

You do need to use the AVR mic for its cal file and the same holds true for the AS-EQ1 mic. But the cal file is for an accurate FR, not absolute SPL.

To answer your question - no - you cannot supplant the SubEQ mic cal file with another mic cal file - it doesn't work like Pro where you load a specific mic cal file.

Regardless, none of the AVR style mics have better than a +/- 2 dB variance from an absolute SPL standpoint, and that is why the level matching needs to be done. If the speakers and sub both say 75 dB on the level matching screen - you're good to go to the next step, even if the actual SPL isn't exactly 75 dB.

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post #557 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 01:49 PM
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Can you save multiple files and download them to your EQ1? For instance, if I'm testing sub placement or between different brands of subs. I set one up, save the file on my PC, then download to the EQ1. Ditto the second. Then it becomes easier to switch back and forth. Can that happen?
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post #558 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

If you run MultEQ XT on the Integra (the first step in setting up the AS-EQ1), all channels will be close to 75 dB at master volume 0.0. You can do a quick check to make sure. Then set the subwoofer to 75 dB and let the AS-EQ1 do its thing. Then enter the subwoofer trim value into the AVR.

Unless there is a hefty EQ file, the trim level should always end-up pretty close to 0, and if you are running duals it won't be much more negative than -6. So you'll always be in the 0 to -6 sweet spot of the sub channel level - no pre-out clipping and auto-on circuits behave nicely.

Just to clarity, the test tone in the Integra 9.8 is output at the standard level for THX, which is 0dB (absolute volume setting of 82dB). This is on pages 103 and 109 of the manual. If Audyssey then adjusts the trims on each speaker so that the mic registers 75dB at the listening positions, end result would be 75dB at master volume of 0, as Ed states.
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post #559 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtwstr View Post

Can you save multiple files and download them to your EQ1? For instance, if I'm testing sub placement or between different brands of subs. I set one up, save the file on my PC, then download to the EQ1. Ditto the second. Then it becomes easier to switch back and forth. Can that happen?

You can't save more than one file at a time. You can try any location and/or subwoofer combination and temporarily store the settings in the AS-EQ1 and listen to the results by toggling between EQ on/off. If you like the sound and are satisfied with the FR and EQ solution, then you can save it permanently to the AS-EQ1. If not, then you can try other locations and re-run the EQ routine and listen again. We made the minimum number of measurements 3 to keep the time investment down during the initial investigative phase as you try different sub locations.

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post #560 of 6280 Old 03-26-2009, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihifi View Post

Just to clarity, the test tone in the Integra 9.8 is output at the standard level for THX, which is 0dB (absolute volume setting of 82dB). This is on pages 103 and 109 of the manual. If Audyssey then adjusts the trims on each speaker so that the mic registers 75dB at the listening positions, end result would be 75dB at master volume of 0, as Ed states.

You'll want to set your Master Volume scale to Relative (i.e. -81.5 through +18) and not Absolute (i.e., 0.5 through 99.5).

The Absolute value of 82 is actually meaningless as it relates to a true sound pressure - all Integra is saying is that 82 on the Absolute scale = 0.0 on the Relative scale.

So in your case, set the Master Volume scale to Relative, set the Master Volume to 0.0, and then adjust all channel levels to 75 dB using the AS-EQ1, if they are not already there after MultEQ XT has been run (they should all be pretty close).

If your AVR has independent trim level settings for the multi-channel external inputs (all Denons have this feature for example), make sure they are first pre-set to the same values as the internal trim levels which the AVR set after running MultEQ XT.

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post #561 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 09:20 AM
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Taking a cue from the helpfulness of the giomania/member-originated and driven Audyssey Setup Guide, I wanted to create the equivalent for the AS-EQ1 and am posting this as a placeholder until we actually have tips & tricks for successfully using the AS-EQ1 and its accompanying SubEQ software.

This is to supplement the excellent manual and it will always be the first recommendation to READ THE MANUAL. I expect that, as these units get into members' hands, there will be "issues" that Ed will deal with. (Not many though, ED, I'm sure. ) If the answer goes beyond what is in the manual, a nugget of new information will have been formed which will go into this space.

"Operator Manual is up and running now at SVS website." This is the latest version: Manual Version 1.2 August 2009

4/16/09-First real news - pics posted by an SVS dealer in Philipines. Thanks ribbit!

4/19/09 - Tip from ribbit: "subwoofer not detected by receiver auto-EQ - when running the receiver calibration, make sure the AS-EQ1 software is at the Auto EQ assist page and the ON tick box is clicked.

Dimensions (not mentioned in the manual): 1.75" H x 17" W x 8.5 D w/o faceplate, 17.25" W with faceplate and 19" with rack mount ears. It is 1 RU.

4/24/09 - Very informative post from Ed addressing some of the questions/comments that had come up recently (to 4/24/09). And here is Ed's recommendation for a four sub setup.

8/24/09 - Not much has needed to be added/expanded on, but one thing has come up and that is a misunderstanding about the AS-EQ1's operation with respect to equalizing two subs individually. From Ed: "In dual combined mode the AS-EQ1 independently level matches and time aligns each subwoofer, and then builds the EQ file for both subwoofers together. In dual discrete mode, the AS-EQ1 builds a separate EQ file for each subwoofer. We will correct/clarify this in the Operator's Manual."

8/25/09 - USING TWO DIFFERENT SUBS?
Previously, the thinking was that the AS-EQ1 will do the best job of integrating two subs into one system and no regard was given to them being different. Now, with this unit being used by more and more members, some experiences with very different subs - usually from multiple but staggered purchases spread over "varying" economic situations - it should noted that the dual discrete mode might be the best one to use. Experimenting with both modes should be done to make that determination.

8/29/09 - Great post from Doug McBride can be found here with more tips for a trouble-free setup and enjoyment of our AS-EQ1's.

9/7/09 - The issue of the manual's wording on the level matching step has been raised. Here is Ed's supplemental info on the subject.
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post #562 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Taking a cue from the helpfulness of the giomania/member-originated and driven Audyssey Setup Guide, I wanted to create the equivalent for the AS-EQ1 and am posting this as a placeholder until we actually have tips & tricks for successfully using the AS-EQ1 and its accompanying SubEQ software.

This is to supplement the excellent manual and it will always be the first recommendation to READ THE MANUAL. I expect that, as these units get into members' hands, there will be "issues" that Ed will deal with. (Not many though, ED, I'm sure. ) If the answer goes beyond what is in the manual, a nugget of new information will have been formed which will go into this space.

Link added to my sig . . .

Comments?

Cool.
Thanks for undertaking this task.

Mike
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post #563 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Cool.
Thanks for undertaking this task.

Mike

+1, I second that! Pepar, you've contributed a LOT to the Audyssey forum and it would be very welcome here!

Ed,
Read the manual last night. Seems pretty straight forward and concise. Can't wait to see what this unit can do!

Thanks,
Ray

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post #564 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 10:42 AM
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A/V manufacturers who have licensed Audyssey technologies for their AVRs and pre/pros didn't give it much space in their manuals leading to a lot of people with a lot of questions. This guide probably won't get anywhere near as big as the "Audyssey" guide because the unit's manual is focused on the unit's one purpose.
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post #565 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

You can't save more than one file at a time. You can try any location and/or subwoofer combination and temporarily store the settings in the AS-EQ1 and listen to the results by toggling between EQ on/off. If you like the sound and are satisfied with the FR and EQ solution, then you can save it permanently to the AS-EQ1. If not, then you can try other locations and re-run the EQ routine and listen again. We made the minimum number of measurements 3 to keep the time investment down during the initial investigative phase as you try different sub locations.

wait a second, i thought the eq1 was going to eliminate the need to move your sub(s) around to get a flat response at the listening positions.
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post #566 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 11:42 AM
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There's only so much electronics can do without damaging your sub You can't just put it in the worst possible location and go.
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post #567 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 12:02 PM
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There's only so much electronics can do without damaging your sub You can't just put it in the worst possible location and go.

alright, i understand what you're saying. But this is direct from SV Sound's website talking about the EQ1......

"What do you get? Everything you need, in one slick looking, stand-alone box which neatly integrates into nearly any theater or music system. Fire up the graphical user interface (GUI) and operating software on your Window's laptop, and you'll experience virtually perfect bass in minutes. And we mean that, no matter how challenging your room or your subwoofer placement might be. In fact, we guarantee it. Acoustical nightmares are cleaned up fast as you can move the included microphone through your room. It's actually fun to use. Imagine."

not trying to pick a fight. just trying to understand this piece of equipment the best i can before it arrives (i already have it on pre-order).
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post #568 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 12:04 PM
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Looks like an involved setup. Based on the time I spent with my initial Audyssey configuration coupled with what I see in the AS-EQ1 manual, I am thinking a good 2-3+ hours of basic setup.

Sounds like it will be worth it though. Can't wait to see some first hand stories on the config and results.

-Alex-
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post #569 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worduphod View Post

wait a second, i thought the eq1 was going to eliminate the need to move your sub(s) around to get a flat response at the listening positions.

I think it will do the best with any given situation, but that doesn't mean that the basics are trumped. Sub position, listener position and acoustical treatments are still important. But there's the rub; most "listening positions" are dictated by room size, shape and other possible uses of the room. Sub locations are similarly limited in most rooms by space and aesthetic issues. Ditto absorbers in many cases.

And that's where this gizmo comes in to give the best bass possible to as many seats as possible. But as Ed posted - it was a eureka moment for me, or better yet a Homer Simpson moment - the unit can be used to find the best sub(s) location(s) among the range of the different locations allowed by the other factors.
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post #570 of 6280 Old 03-27-2009, 01:25 PM
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Thanks Pepar. I think we're all looking forward to diving in!
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