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post #631 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 01:52 PM
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Well, whatever the academic arguments, the current design seems to be finding a market. The initial production run -- which SVS had projected would last them through most of the rest of the year -- is already sold out and they are now trying to get another slot with the fabricator for a second, larger batch. Those, like me, who had stayed on the fence until now will be waiting until late summer, probably, for an AS-EQ1.
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post #632 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopstretch View Post

Well, whatever the academic arguments, the current design seems to be finding a market. The initial production run -- which SVS had projected would last them through most of the rest of the year -- is already sold out and they are now trying to get another slot with the fabricator for a second, larger batch. Those, like me, who had stayed on the fence until now will be waiting until late summer, probably, for an AS-EQ1.

i'm gonna look at that as a blessing in disguise... if they are out in the wild for a few months, whatever strange firmware anomalies that the beta testers missed will have worked their way out and gotten fixed...

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post #633 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 02:25 PM
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Like ccotenj, I'm very interested but not that anxious to jump on it yet.
I look forward to seeing all the reviews and AVS commentary.

Mike
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post #634 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Like ccotenj, I'm very interested but not that anxious to jump on it yet.
I look forward to seeing all the reviews and AVS commentary.

Mike

might not be a bad idea to go ahead and order one while they still have the pre-order price up on their website...

i can pretty much anticipate what the commentary is going to be like... there will be the "great middle" who will praise it as a good solid product that pretty much delivers what it promises, but realizes it can't work complete miracles... there will be nits to be picked (this is avs, nits MUST be picked, it's a law or something), but all in all, i'm betting the reaction will be overwhelmingly positive... the people at audyssey have been working on these concepts for a LONG time now with their various correction software methodologies... plus svs has a reputation that they need to protect, and they've seen examples of how ID companies can get slaughtered if they put out a bad product... i'd expect this thing is going to deliver...

then there will be the lunatic fringe on either side... it'll be interesting to see how many threads they manage to get locked...

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post #635 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

might not be a bad idea to go ahead and order one while they still have the pre-order price up on their website...

i can pretty much anticipate what the commentary is going to be like... there will be the "great middle" who will praise it as a good solid product that pretty much delivers what it promises, but realizes it can't work complete miracles... there will be nits to be picked (this is avs, nits MUST be picked, it's a law or something), but all in all, i'm betting the reaction will be overwhelmingly positive... the people at audyssey have been working on these concepts for a LONG time now with their various correction software methodologies... plus svs has a reputation that they need to protect, and they've seen examples of how ID companies can get slaughtered if they put out a bad product... i'd expect this thing is going to deliver...

then there will be the lunatic fringe on either side... it'll be interesting to see how many threads they manage to get locked...

LOL!

Insightful!

You may have a good point about pre-ordering now.

Mike
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post #636 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

LOL!

Insightful!

You may have a good point about pre-ordering now.

Mike

new products from established "favorites" like svs tend to incite many of the same "discussions" over and over again...

can't hurt... if they are backordered that far, you might as well get the hundred bucks off... in the unlikely event that it turns out to be a big ol' pile of poo, you can always cancel... and if it turns out to be (as anticipated) good, you'll have saved the $100, because you know you'll want one...

i had ordered recently before i was aware of what that person posted, so i figure mine will be on whatever boat comes in with the 2nd batch on it... when it gets here it gets here... spring is finally here... last thing i need is for some new toy to show up on my doorstep when it's finally nice enough to go outside...

- chris

 

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post #637 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The Welti paper makes the point that a pair of opposite midwall subs is nearly as good as four, and gives more output per sub.

I'm skeptical of Welti's recommendations, because the room upon which his simulations are based is so simplified. (Shape, openings, furnishings, missing the vertical dimension, etc.) Also, why would one give up the "free bass" that comes from corner-loading if one can have it and still get equal or better upper-bass performance.

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In regards to someone else's reference to this as being a good setup that may benefit less from EQ, it's important to note that "good" for the purposes of the paper is defined as least variation within the seating, not smoothest response; the latter can be addressed with EQ but the former cannot.

That is a good point, but in truth I think both goals go together. At least, in my own setups I've noted that as more bass sources are added in, response gets smoother at every spot in addition to being more consistent around the room.

The bottom line remains, though, that all of the prominent advocates of multisub systems recommend 3-4 or more independent bass sources, and yet this brand-new and expensive box is entirely inadequate to that task. Pity, really, because I'm a big fan of Audyssey's technology and personally use MultEQ XT in two different home systems as well as my daily driver's car audio system. But there won't be one of these in any signal chain until they revamp it to make it compatible with modern audio systems. (And software that doesn't require a lowly notamac or a Mac stuck in cripple mode via Parallels, etc. would be nice, too.)

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post #638 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


The bottom line remains, though, that all of the prominent advocates of multisub systems recommend 3-4 or more independent bass sources, and yet this brand-new and expensive box is entirely inadequate to that task. Pity, really, because I'm a big fan of Audyssey's technology and personally use MultEQ XT in two different home systems as well as my daily driver's car audio system. But there won't be one of these in any signal chain until they revamp it to make it compatible with modern audio systems. (And software that doesn't require a lowly notamac or a Mac stuck in cripple mode via Parallels, etc. would be nice, too.)

Floyd Toole seems to indicate that 2 subs are more or less just as good as four in a rectangular room, at least when it comes to seat-variation.

AtW
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post #639 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 04:55 PM
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Just posted this elsewhere but thought i'd share it here too.

As promised here are some pics and the results from my 1st attempt using 15 positions in and around my 3 seater sofa

The results look ruler flat, but i'm, now aware of what a basshead i really am as it has drastically changed the gain on both the Sub and the reciever I'm off to give it a go with Hellboy 2. Just hoping i'll still be able to hear it with the amount of gain i've had to drop :grin:

The EQ1 arrived double boxed and both were in perfect condition



Inside was nicely packaged











Opinions after the film ........

Initial impressions are pretty good. I have no idea how this unit has done it but, but the complete soundstage has improved 10 fold. The fronts and rears seem to have moved out of the room big time, and have an amazing sense of depth that i've never managed to get on my equipment before. The pans, and swings from front to rear are now seemless and i still cannot see how just be EQ'ing and time aligning the Sub this can be done

I will probably try another set of readings when i have more time, with maybe a few less readings. My only concern is that I've lost a lot of the chest impact that used to be had, but seeing how high my Sub channel was actually set in comparision to my mains was a interesting to say the least. IIRC when th emain channel was producing 75db the Sub channel was pumping out about 90db

My PCU used to be set to 12 o'clock gain and the Audiolab to +4db on the sub trim. This has now dropped to 9 o'clock and -1.5db trim to give the ruler flat response.

Now if i knock the Sub channel up a notch again and run it hot (although not 15db :grin i'm wondering whether this immense change to the other speakers will dissapear as the mains will be running lower than the Sub. The PCU still dug nice and low when needed, but just in a more lifelike manner than i'm used to.

I'll be trying a few of the usual Bass scenes that i'm used to over the weekend. I wonder if there will ever be a software change to give provision of a house curve to play with.

Am i glad i spent my hard earned cash on an EQ device instead of 100 days worth of fags - Hell yes:devil:
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post #640 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 05:27 PM
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But there won't be one of these in any signal chain until they revamp it to make it compatible with modern audio systems.

Again with this ********?

Want one that handles 12 subs and runs natively under OS X? Build it yourself and good luck recouping your development costs by selling to the six other people in the world with those specific requirements.
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post #641 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 05:28 PM
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"Also, why would one give up the "free bass" that comes from corner-loading if one can have it and still get equal or better upper-bass performance."

Because it's quantity over quality, exciting all modes maximally.

The midwall location eliminates all odd-order modes.

"all of the prominent advocates of multisub systems recommend 3-4 or more independent bass sources, and yet this brand-new and expensive box is entirely inadequate to that task."

Not entirely.

It's already been pointed out that any pair (or any number actually) that have symmetry with respect to the room and listening area can be treated/EQ'd as a single sub.

Noah
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post #642 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 05:31 PM
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Beautiful Stevefish what part of the Country do you live in that you received the EQ already?
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post #643 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 05:39 PM
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Beautiful Stevefish what part of the Country do you live in that you received the EQ already?

Hi ya,

I'm in the UK very Near Heathrow airport. Kent Home cinema recieved them this morning and when i got the call i just had to drive over to them and pick it up.

I still can't belive you poor guys in the US have not got your hands on them yet.
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post #644 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 06:05 PM
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post #645 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 06:15 PM
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Again with this ********?

Hopstretch, I was |this| close to having a cabernet keyboard.
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post #646 of 6283 Old 04-17-2009, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by stevefish69 View Post

Just posted this elsewhere but thought i'd share it here too.

As promised here are some pics and the results from my 1st attempt using 15 positions in and around my 3 seater sofa

The results look ruler flat, but i'm, now aware of what a basshead i really am as it has drastically changed the gain on both the Sub and the reciever I'm off to give it a go with Hellboy 2. Just hoping i'll still be able to hear it with the amount of gain i've had to drop :grin:

The EQ1 arrived double boxed and both were in perfect condition



Inside was nicely packaged











Opinions after the film ........

Initial impressions are pretty good. I have no idea how this unit has done it but, but the complete soundstage has improved 10 fold. The fronts and rears seem to have moved out of the room big time, and have an amazing sense of depth that i've never managed to get on my equipment before. The pans, and swings from front to rear are now seemless and i still cannot see how just be EQ'ing and time aligning the Sub this can be done

I will probably try another set of readings when i have more time, with maybe a few less readings. My only concern is that I've lost a lot of the chest impact that used to be had, but seeing how high my Sub channel was actually set in comparision to my mains was a interesting to say the least. IIRC when th emain channel was producing 75db the Sub channel was pumping out about 90db

My PCU used to be set to 12 o'clock gain and the Audiolab to +4db on the sub trim. This has now dropped to 9 o'clock and -1.5db trim to give the ruler flat response.

Now if i knock the Sub channel up a notch again and run it hot (although not 15db :grin i'm wondering whether this immense change to the other speakers will dissapear as the mains will be running lower than the Sub. The PCU still dug nice and low when needed, but just in a more lifelike manner than i'm used to.

I'll be trying a few of the usual Bass scenes that i'm used to over the weekend. I wonder if there will ever be a software change to give provision of a house curve to play with.

Am i glad i spent my hard earned cash on an EQ device instead of 100 days worth of fags - Hell yes:devil:

Nice post.

Let us know more when you have some subjective experience with movies and music and tweak the sub level.

Do you have Audyssey on your AVR or pre/pro?

Good stuff.

Mike
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post #647 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by stevefish69 View Post


Just hoping i'll still be able to hear it with the amount of gain i've had to drop :grin:



Opinions after the film ........


My PCU used to be set to 12 o'clock gain and the Audiolab to +4db on the sub trim. This has now dropped to 9 o'clock and -1.5db trim to give the ruler flat response.

Thanks for an interesting update! I wish they had produce a frequency responce-picture that was a bit less smoothed. But hopefully the correction iself has a higher resolution than the graph indicates.

And I guess when it has to do a lot of correction, gain has to be "the victim", giving less bass headroom.

AtW
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post #648 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 05:17 AM
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I wish they had produce a frequency responce-picture that was a bit less smoothed.

AtW

Isn't the point that it be smoothed???
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post #649 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 05:38 AM
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Isn't the point that it be smoothed???

The point is to make a flat smooth responce in the room, but the curve itself have all the signs of a smoothed reponce. For instance 1/3 octave-smoothing is often done to make a graph easier to read, but it doesn't change the responce in the room. The graph in the picture has to few details imho.

AtW
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post #650 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATWindsor View Post

The point is to make a flat smooth responce in the room, but the curve itself have all the signs of a smoothed reponce. For instance 1/3 octave-smoothing is often done to make a graph easier to read, but it doesn't change the responce in the room. The graph in the picture has to few details imho.

Shouldn't be long before some of these are in the hands of folks who are also conversant with Room EQ Wizard. Then we'll see some unsmoothed graphs and, doubtless, lots of arguments about measurement methodologies and corrections in the time domain.
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post #651 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 07:43 AM
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I really want to see a pre/post curve(s) in a system that already has Audyssey EQxt.

Mike
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post #652 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ATWindsor View Post

Thanks for an interesting update! I wish they had produce a frequency responce-picture that was a bit less smoothed. But hopefully the correction iself has a higher resolution than the graph indicates.

And I guess when it has to do a lot of correction, gain has to be "the victim", giving less bass headroom.

Peaks are being cut where the room is "assisting" and Audyssey does not try to boost nulls. So, I would think that there would be more headroom.
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post #653 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 08:39 AM
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Peaks are being cut where the room is "assisting" and Audyssey does not try to boost nulls. So, I would think that there would be more headroom.

Ok, maybe my english is not so good. What i mean is that the max bass level possible will be lower than without filtering, because it has to cut a lot of peaks if the responce is very uneven. I apologize if my english made the message unclear.

AtW
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post #654 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 09:02 AM
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Ok, maybe my english is not so good. What i mean is that the max bass level possible will be lower than without filtering, because it has to cut a lot of peaks if the responce is very uneven. I apologize if my english made the message unclear.

I understand what you are saying perfectly. If by "max bass level" you are referring to the loud "boom-boom-boom" of un-corrected bass then you are correct but only in an . . (no offense meant) . . uneducated way. True, those peaks are loud, but there are a lot of frequencies that are low and even masked by the booms. Think of a simple "walking" bass guitar line. Wouldn't you want all of the notes to be equally loud (or soft)? With corrected flat bass, they would. With the bass you refer to, they would not. Which do you think is correct? Even if you initially think the bass is deficient, would you not want to "educate" your ear to the point that you preferred flat bass?
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post #655 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 09:10 AM
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The "after" graph looks just a little too perfect to be believed. If its smoothed then I don't think the perfectionist like me will be satisfied. They need more resolution on the graphs...its looks a little too much like before & after marketing to me.

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post #656 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopstretch View Post

Shouldn't be long before some of these are in the hands of folks who are also conversant with Room EQ Wizard. Then we'll see some unsmoothed graphs and, doubtless, lots of arguments about measurement methodologies and corrections in the time domain.

If i get time tomorrow i'll do a couple of sweeps and post a pic of REW unsmoothed response for both readings with the EQ on / off. It'll also be interesting to see what it does to the waterfall chart too
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post #657 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I understand what you are saying perfectly. If by "max bass level" you are referring to the loud "boom-boom-boom" of un-corrected bass then you are correct but only in an . . (no offense meant) . . uneducated way. True, those peaks are loud, but there are a lot of frequencies that are low and even masked by the booms. Think of a simple "walking" bass guitar line. Wouldn't you want all of the notes to be equally loud (or soft)? With corrected flat bass, they would. With the bass you refer to, they would not. Which do you think is correct? Even if you initially think the bass is deficient, would you not want to "educate" your ear to the point that you preferred flat bass?


Of course i would be happy to have a flat bass responce, however you have to pay for that flatness, lower level on the same equipment is part of that price. You argue that the resulat is worth that drwaback, which i agree to, but its a drawback nevertheless.

AtW
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post #658 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I really want to see a pre/post curve(s) in a system that already has Audyssey EQxt.

Mike


Same here but with REW and a BFG as a 3rd comparison.

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post #659 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 11:14 AM
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Steve, maybe it's just the way the graph is displayed, but it looks to me that the EQ1 has changed the slope of the XO to 0dB per octave. Do you have your sub crossed at 80 or 100?

Randy
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post #660 of 6283 Old 04-18-2009, 11:32 AM
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Steve, maybe it's just the way the graph is displayed, but it looks to me that the EQ1 has changed the slope of the XO to 0dB per octave. Do you have your sub crossed at 80 or 100?

The X-Over is set to 80Hz.

When the EQ1 take all of it's measurements using the front left and Sub it asks for all crossovers to be defeated. I'm running large Kef 3.2's up front and on the summary page (see example on pg 25) it advised to set the speakers to "Large"

As per the norm, and as advised in the EQ1 instruction manual pg 25, i set the X-Over back to 80hz and speakers to small as usual to get the sub to do most of the work.

As the Kef's dig down pretty low, i may have a play with setting the X-Over a little lower, maybe 60Hz and see what happens.
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