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post #1531 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Well if it is taken that way then it doesn't really have anything to do with as-eq1. If you added a second "better" or deeper sub in a room then even without eq the overall extension reached should be lower just because the second sub was added with its abilities.

That seems logical. I am certain that the AS-EQ1 will do a better job of integrating two subs, identical or not, into a system than whatever manual adjustments one could make. Or MultEQ XT by itself.

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I also want to post this question on the audyssey thread about multieq xt... I am going to face this issue with multieq xt and may not be able to get an as-eq1 for some time and need to know what issues this will cause.

Posting there is a good idea.
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post #1532 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 04:53 PM
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So then this may alter the standard recommendation of leaving both subs at the same amp level gain and using bass control to control the spl level if you decided to run the subs hot or cold.

If you wanted to run the subs hot in this particular situation then since the "strong" sub will be working sub maximal and the "lesser" sub will work, near, at or possible almost above max then the "stronger sub will have more headroom to account for the increased requirement set my the user and thus increasing its own amp gain might be better...? does that make sense
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post #1533 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

So then this may alter the standard recommendation of leaving both subs at the same amp level gain and using bass control to control the spl level if you decided to run the subs hot or cold.

If you wanted to run the subs hot in this particular situation then since the "strong" sub will be working sub maximal and the "lesser" sub will work, near, at or possible almost above max then the "stronger sub will have more headroom to account for the increased requirement set my the user

I have concerns that not following the instructions to match the SPLs of the two subs at mic position #1 could cause other issues. However, since two subs TOGETHER each have to work a lot less than any one of them to produce the same SPL, they both give each other more headroom and *your* concern may not be an issue.

I guess I am assuming that one sub is not some puny little box and the other a world shaker.
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post #1534 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Nothing about the AS-EQ1 (or Audyssey for that matter) prevents a user from turning the volume up and having distortion.

With two mis-matched non-identical subs, the "lesser' sub will be the limiting factor.

Agreed, which is why it probably would be much better to remove the 'lesser' or limiting sub from the equation and have cleaner, deeper bass IMO.

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post #1535 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Agreed, which is why it probably would be much better to remove the 'lesser' or limiting sub from the equation and have cleaner, deeper bass IMO.

Actually, it would be much better to remove the lesser sub and buy a second ( . . third . . and fourth) better sub.
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post #1536 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Actually, it would be much better to remove the lesser sub and buy a second ( . . third . . and fourth) better sub.

Again, VERY much Agree with you!!!

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post #1537 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Actually Kal had a real-world experience with this, also. He added a second subwoofer which had lower extension than the first, and the AS-EQ1 allowed a lower combined extension from the two subs combined.

My "real-world" experience was quite the opposite. My JL subs, with different firmware, were essentially different subs with different FR's and gain structures. In fact, at the time you said:

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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Exactly correct, Craig.

Glad you figured out what was wrong with the subs. I knew something was wrong with the subs based on the gain disparity between them - it just wasn't possible. That's why I recommended you eval each one independent and then slave with a close-mic sweep and bingo - there it was.

I know your second pass with the AS-EQ1 will be a far better experience once both subwoofers are on equal footing from a gain and FR standpoint - that was causing major problems.

So, does the AS-EQ1 do the right things to integrate 2 dissimilar subs, or must the subs be very similar in FR, extension and output capability to optimize the final combined result?

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post #1538 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

. . must the subs be very similar in FR, extension and output capability to optimize the final combined result?

I'm not trying to shield Ed from slings and arrows, but doesn't that question answer itself? Aren't two subs of the same or close to the same capabilities always going to perform better in one system than two very dissimilar subs?
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post #1539 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Ed that is a little vague, my lower do you mean a lower frequency of bass was achieved or lesser extension was possible. This could be a negative or positive as written.

IIRC, Kal had a Servo-15 which rolled off between 20-25 Hz, and a new P-digm Sub-25 which extended to ~16 Hz. The combined FR showed extension to about 15-16 Hz in-room.

While I don't have access to the EQ file, it is very unlikely boost was applied below the roll-off of the Servo-15; it merely recognized the Sub-25 could play deeper and allowed a deeper combined extension for the pair.

At least in Kal's case the "lesser" subwoofer won't be damaged by this, as the Servo-15 is basically unflappable. I suppose in certain situations with two very disparate subs where one rolls off much earlier than the other, it would be more appropriate to use the dual discrete mode instead of the dual-combined mode in the interest of protecting the more vulnerable unit. The overall playback level should also be taken into consideration when making this decision - the louder the playback, the more I would lean toward dual discrete with the two widely disparate subs.

In general though, most users have two identical or very similar subwoofers and it's not an issue which manifests itself often in real world applications. If it does, the option is there for dual discrete.

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post #1540 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Curious Ed, would that then allow (if playing at reference levels) the 'lesser' sub to bottom out and distort?

In practice, it did not but there are several possibilities why. First, the 'lesser' sub is a servo which will self-preserve. Second, the differences in power/extension were small. Third, I use the system mostly for music.

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post #1541 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

My "real-world" experience was quite the opposite. My JL subs, with different firmware, were essentially different subs with different FR's and gain structures.

So, does the AS-EQ1 do the right things to integrate 2 dissimilar subs, or must the subs be very similar in FR, extension and output capability to optimize the final combined result?

Craig

IIRC you guys were running in dual combined mode under the erroneous assumption both subwoofers had identical performance (since they were the same model). That turned out not to be the case - due to a firmware difference, there was significant gain and FR disparity between them.

As a result, I suspect you might have gotten better results in dual discrete mode, but as Jeff said, two identical subs will always perform better than two widely disparate subs - pepar pretty much nailed that one as being self evident.

As for "doing the right thing", time alignment, level matching, and FR optimization and two available EQ modes is about all one can reasonably expect from an auto-EQ device. If the two subs are identical, use dual combined mode. If they are not identical, try both modes and see which one you prefer more.

We feel the AS-EQ1 is the best subwoofer EQ system on the market and users and reviewers tend to agree. With that said, no product can be all things to all users, so if a customer isn't happy with the AS-EQ1, he can certainly return it within the trial period.

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post #1542 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

My "real-world" experience was quite the opposite. My JL subs, with different firmware, were essentially different subs with different FR's and gain structures. In fact, at the time you said:



So, does the AS-EQ1 do the right things to integrate 2 dissimilar subs, or must the subs be very similar in FR, extension and output capability to optimize the final combined result?

Craig

Craig,

I am trying to decipher this... It sounds like you are asking whether the product can give you better performance from the combination of two dissimilar subs than what you would get without it. So, we have to define what "better performance" means. Obviously, if one sub doesn't go as low as the other that will not change no matter what you do. That's not really the purpose of room correction.

What it will do is make sure that the blending of the two subs is better than without it. For example, the two subs will overlap in some frequency range. If you don't do proper blending then the overlap region will not be flat even if you equalize each sub to flat individually.

However, as Ed pointed out, in order for the blending to work correctly the two subs must be within the gain range that the AS-EQ1 can adjust. If for some reason they are set to be 20 dB apart (for example) then the blending will not work as well.

So, I think it is valid for us to claim that the product will produce better integration of two subs whether they are of the same "capability" or not. In our experience this works much better if you use the One In to Two Out mode.

On the other hand, if you are asking whether the combination of a big and little sub can be made to sound the same as the combination of two big subs, then the answer is no. That would be a pretty neat trick, but we are not in the trick business...

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post #1543 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

What it will do is make sure that the blending of the two subs is better than without it.

Well, that was the thing... it didn't make my two "dissimilar" subs better than without it. In fact, it made them worse... much worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

As a result, I suspect you might have gotten better results in dual discrete mode, but as Jeff said, two identical subs will always perform better than two widely disparate subs - pepar pretty much nailed that one as being self evident.

I agree that multiple identical subs should work better together. The real question is "How does the AS-EQ1 work with dissimilar subs?" On one hand, you and Chris are saying it improves the results, even though it can't "trick" the lesser sub into being as good as the better sub. I don't disagree that it can't make "chicken salad" out of "chicken $hlT". I'm just saying that I don't think it *always* improves the overall result with dual, dissimilar subs. IME, it made things worse. Unfortunately, we didn't try the Dual Discrete Mode.

Having said all that, I totally agree that dual, (or more), *identical* subs is the best approach. The fact that the AS-EQ1 can work best with this arrangement is not surprising.

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post #1544 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 07:28 PM
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I wish I had a 'capable' non-PB13U sub on hand to pair with one of my PB13Us. I would calibrate them through my Sub Equalizer to see how well it would integrate them compared to dual PB13Us. Anyone live in the Kansas City area that is willing to bring over a sub to test with? Ed... you willing to ship me one of those SB16s for a quick demo/test?

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post #1545 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Actually, it would be much better to remove the lesser sub and buy a second ( . . third . . and fourth) better sub.

Im my case I don't really consider the "lesser sub" worth removing - yes a ported epik dynasty is amazing but dual 19ov.02's sealed (even if slightly under powered) are not worth throwing away ha...
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post #1546 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 08:24 PM
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If the "lesser" sub is sealed then wouldn't it be reasonably safe from bottoming out if the amp isn't too powerful?

I think the reason people question this product more than other is that it is more expensive than some other popular consumer level options for this particular problem (subwoofer eq). Obviously much more expensive products exists but this seems to be in the middle between cost no object and cost conscious so for those who are stretching their comfort zone for this budget (myself included) we want to be reasonably sure the purchase is right.
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post #1547 of 6280 Old 08-24-2009, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

How about an SPL program like True RTA? Would that be accurate?

I looked at the TrueRTA product info, and I didn't see any reference to TrueRMS detection. But it's a software product, so doing it carries no cost burden, so I'd assume it's true RMS.

Easy enough to check. Generate a square wave, 1Vp, (as measured in oscilloscope mode), and see what the AC voltmeter reads. It should be 1V. If it reads closer to 1.1V, then it's an average responding detector.
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post #1548 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I looked at the TrueRTA product info, and I didn't see any reference to TrueRMS detection. But it's a software product, so doing it carries no cost burden, so I'd assume it's true RMS.

Easy enough to check. Generate a square wave, 1Vp, (as measured in oscilloscope mode), and see what the AC voltmeter reads. It should be 1V. If it reads closer to 1.1V, then it's an average responding detector.



I tried that test and the TrueRTA generated square wave is not smooth enough to do that test. Perhaps that is a soundcard issue.

I checked the help menu, and it indicated input voltage readings are RMS values. You have to calibrate the input and output each time you fiddle with volume levels if you want accurate voltage and SPL readings.

Crest factors are also calculated based on RMS numbers.



Funny thing is the Digital RS SPL meter has a MAX reading button on the display. That MAX reading pretty much matches up with the PEAK SPL reading on TrueRTA.

I am not sure how the chip in the RS Digital SPL meter calculates the SPL output numbers. I am not sure if the analog and digital SPL meters work the same way. You can do a lot of things in a chip on the cheap.



----------------

Input Level Meter

The input voltmeter reads the signal selected at either the spectrum analyzer input or the scope input depending on which mode is active. If you are using the scope then the input you select for the scope will also feed the meters. Likewise for the analyzer, if you are using the real time analyzer then the analyzer’s input will feed the meters.

The voltmeter can display the following levels:

Input Level in millivolts

Input Level in dBu rms (0.774597 Vrms reference, or 1mW @ 600 Ohms)

Input Level in dBu peak


When the dB display is selected a solid vertical bar is drawn at the left edge of the plot screen to indicate the overall dB level of the signal. Floating above the top of the bar is a line that indicates the peak signal level.

Upon first installing TrueRTA you should calibrate the voltmeter for your sound card. See the Audio I/O Menu for full details on how to calibrate your system so that it reads input signal levels accurately. You will need an AC voltmeter separate from TrueRTA so that you can accurately measure the signal level. You will enter that value at the calibration dialog and then your TrueRTA will be calibrated for your sound card and provide you with precise measurement of input signal levels. Here is a link to the Edit menu for the calibration commands: Line Input and Output Calibration."


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post #1549 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'm not trying to shield Ed from slings and arrows, but doesn't that question answer itself? Aren't two subs of the same or close to the same capabilities always going to perform better in one system than two very dissimilar subs?

Rarely, if ever.

Of course, doing it the other way (optimizing the size/capabilities of each subwoofer to the role it is to play in a system) requires actual human thought rather than just the ability to pay a large credit card bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

We feel the AS-EQ1 is the best subwoofer EQ system on the market and users and reviewers tend to agree.

Honest question: have there been any reviewers (published or user) that compared the Audyssey unit to the other advanced subwoofer processor on the market today, the JBL BassQ? Asking because I haven't seen any.

Most of the comparos I've seen have been to the Velodyne SMS-1. The SMS-1 is great for what it is, a quick and easy-to-use bass measurement system with a built in parametric EQ. Especially with the MIC-5 kit to allow spatial averaging. I own one and it does what I need it to do in my system. But the Audyssey box and the BassQ are an entirely different category of processors, IMO.

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post #1550 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Rarely, if ever.



Quote:
Of course, doing it the other way (optimizing the size/capabilities of each subwoofer to the role it is to play in a system) requires actual human thought rather than just the ability to pay a large credit card bill.

Cynicism and resentment rarely lead to an opinion based on facts. And a subwoofer in a multichannel home theater system has one role, i.e. reproduce the LFE channel and whatever content is routed to it by the bass management system. That is usually the two octaves from 20Hz to 80Hz with some flexibility at both ends of the range. I can't imagine what further thought would be needed.
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post #1551 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Well, that was the thing... it didn't make my two "dissimilar" subs better than without it. In fact, it made them worse... much worse.

I agree that multiple identical subs should work better together. The real question is "How does the AS-EQ1 work with dissimilar subs?" On one hand, you and Chris are saying it improves the results, even though it can't "trick" the lesser sub into being as good as the better sub. I don't disagree that it can't make "chicken salad" out of "chicken $hlT". I'm just saying that I don't think it *always* improves the overall result with dual, dissimilar subs. IME, it made things worse. Unfortunately, we didn't try the Dual Discrete Mode.

Craig, I think the test we did was totally invalidated by the hardware issue. With two subs as "different" as those were at the time, your system did sound better with no AS-EQ1 than with it in "one in/two out" mode.

Previously, the thinking was that the AS-EQ1 will do the best job of integrating two subs into one system and no regard was given to them being different. Now, with our experience and the recent hubbub over very different subs from multiple but staggered purchases, it should noted that the dual discrete mode might be the best one to use.

I still think the AS-EQ1 *will* do the best job of integrating two subs into one system, but it is not a slam dunk. Some testing and "human thought" are required to achieve the best results with dissimilar subs.

Just my $.02 which I will add to the setup guide.

Jeff
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post #1552 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Honest question: have there been any reviewers (published or user) that compared the Audyssey unit to the other advanced subwoofer processor on the market today, the JBL BassQ? Asking because I haven't seen any.

I have not seen any published reviews of the JBL. Do you have any links to one?

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post #1553 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I have not seen any published reviews of the JBL. Do you have any links to one?

Speaking of published reviews, I greatly enjoyed reading yours of the AS-EQ1.

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post #1554 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 10:39 AM
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Speaking of published reviews, I greatly enjoyed reading yours of the AS-EQ1.

Us cheapskates are waiting for the online version...
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post #1555 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Honest question: have there been any reviewers (published or user) that compared the Audyssey unit to the other advanced subwoofer processor on the market today, the JBL BassQ? Asking because I haven't seen any.

Most of the comparos I've seen have been to the Velodyne SMS-1. The SMS-1 is great for what it is, a quick and easy-to-use bass measurement system with a built in parametric EQ. Especially with the MIC-5 kit to allow spatial averaging. I own one and it does what I need it to do in my system. But the Audyssey box and the BassQ are an entirely different category of processors, IMO.

While not a review, I posted about the BassQ as used in my system here.

I have not compared it with anything else--never owned anything else. But AFAIK, BassQ is unique in that it reduces what Welti calls "MSV" mean spatial variance. The others do not (by means of specific processing, but yes, the use of multiple subs can lead to such benefits as well). Geddes multi-sub tuning method does this, too, but it is not yet embodied in a simple-to-use automatic box.
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post #1556 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

And a subwoofer in a multichannel home theater system has one role, i.e. reproduce the LFE channel and whatever content is routed to it by the bass management system. That is usually the two octaves from 20Hz to 80Hz with some flexibility at both ends of the range. I can't imagine what further thought would be needed.

How about doing that smoothly, across multiple seating positions?

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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I have not seen any published reviews of the JBL. Do you have any links to one?

Unfortunately, no. Nor have I played with it myself, as right now all of my audio dollars, such as they are, are going towards making things prettier without losing performance rather than trying to further improve performance.

You seem like a great person to do such a review, though.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

While not a review, I posted about the BassQ as used in my system here.

I have not compared it with anything else--never owned anything else. But AFAIK, BassQ is unique in that it reduces what Welti calls "MSV" mean spatial variance. The others do not (by means of specific processing, but yes, the use of multiple subs can lead to such benefits as well). Geddes multi-sub tuning method does this, too, but it is not yet embodied in a simple-to-use automatic box.

Interesting how you implemented it in your system. Thanks for directing me to your post!

Yes, the one thing that's annoying about setting up multiple subs properly is the time involved to do so. In truth, that's the only reason I'm going to keep the Velo SMS-1/MIC-5 setup around. The real-time continuous graphs speed up the process quite a bit, compared to changing something, running to the computer to run another FuzzMeasure measurement, and going back.

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post #1557 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

How about doing that smoothly, across multiple seating positions?

Many have some flexibility with sub location(s) to improve LF response. Unfortunately, not many of us have the freedom to place a sub mid-wall on each of the four walls of a properly proportioned rectangular room, or to use any of the other schemes that those pushing the envelope espouse. It is just not practical.

Bass traps can help enormously, but there will still be peaks and nulls. And that brings us to the piece of gear that this thread is about. With it in my system, the LF response improved at all six of my seats. None were perfectly smooth, but they all improved. And the bottom tightened up as well making everything cleaner and clearer. The integration of the subs and the mains is now better than I have ever heard it. In spite of a pair of subs located 4' behind my main LP (and another pair 17' away behind the false screenwall), the "bottom" of every sound that has a bottom emanates from the same place as the sound. In Master and Commander battle scenes there are many of these scattered around the room. In the cave sequence in Iron Man, the man who assisted Tony Stark runs through the cave firing a machine gun which at one point is on the right side of my room. That surround is crossed at 80Hz, but the full-throated, chest-thumping machine gun comes from that surround speaker. It amazes me so much that it takes me out of the movie every time; I know it's coming and I still look at that damn little surround speaker.

When I added a pre/pro with Audyssey MultEQ XT, the Rane PEQ and 1/3rd GEQs went up on ebay. When I added the AS-EQ1, there was another jump in the performance of my system.

What are we arguing about?
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post #1558 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 01:09 PM
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Us cheapskates are waiting for the online version...

Old news by then.

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post #1559 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

While not a review, I posted about the BassQ as used in my system here.

I have not compared it with anything else--never owned anything else. But AFAIK, BassQ is unique in that it reduces what Welti calls "MSV" mean spatial variance. The others do not (by means of specific processing, but yes, the use of multiple subs can lead to such benefits as well). Geddes multi-sub tuning method does this, too, but it is not yet embodied in a simple-to-use automatic box.

Yes. I read that and the discussion.

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post #1560 of 6280 Old 08-25-2009, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

You seem like a great person to do such a review, though.

I wonder if that is so as I am a one-sub per system guy. The fact that I had 2 subs at the time of the AS-EQ1 review was fortuitous.

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