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post #151 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

There are no balanced ins/outs on this piece.

Correct - a concession with the Audyssey folks; all of their gear has RCA I/O including the external Pro box.

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post #152 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 07:02 AM
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Question... maybe a stupid one How is this going to be an improvement over the SMS?
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post #153 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

There are no balanced ins/outs on this piece.

Damn. I understand the necessity of SE RCA connections but this piece will not be used in the typical J6P system, so bal in/outs would seem to be desirable.

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post #154 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 07:42 AM
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And you would need balanced connections on a 20-100 foot run for what reason again? We are talking about a unit that is operating in the 5-100Hz range give or take, and you think balanced connections are going to make a difference?

Asking for the avScience here Kal. I run 100 feet unbalanced no problem in my studio are you saying that my stuff is all sent to ++++ because of a unbalanced line? Or that noise induced on a line that is going to be eventually reproduced by a 12 +inch driver, that this noise will be audible?
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post #155 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Damn. I understand the necessity of SE RCA connections but this piece will not be used in the typical J6P system, so bal in/outs would seem to be desirable.


Yeah, thats too bad...
Well I guess if it came down to it, and you really really wanted bal in/outs, one could wire them in, but it would probably void the warranty...


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post #156 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRR View Post

And you would need balanced connections on a 20-100 foot run for what reason again? We are talking about a unit that is operating in the 5-100Hz range give or take, and you think balanced connections are going to make a difference?

Asking for the avScience here Kal. I run 100 feet unbalanced no problem in my studio are you saying that my stuff is all sent to ++++ because of a unbalanced line? Or that noise induced on a line that is going to be eventually reproduced by a 12 +inch driver, that this noise will be audible?

No argument with you here. My use of XLR is mostly predicated on the superior connector. As I plug/unplug components with annoying regularity, I have not been happy with the endurance of secure contact using RCAs. XLRs simply work (even the one where the shell shattered). Also, my Meridian 861 has only XLR multichannel outputs.

OTOH, it would work in my other system. ;-)

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post #157 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 12:13 PM
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I agree, many mid/hi-end systems have XLR I/O and many folks have made substantial investments in cabling.

Additionally, having this functionality may be a determinate in swaying potential customers from looking elsewhere.

Larry

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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Damn. I understand the necessity of SE RCA connections but this piece will not be used in the typical J6P system, so bal in/outs would seem to be desirable.

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post #158 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 12:15 PM
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WOW, wrong side of the bed this morning?

Nothing wrong with folks having options and the ability for personal preference...

Larry

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Originally Posted by SRR View Post

And you would need balanced connections on a 20-100 foot run for what reason again? We are talking about a unit that is operating in the 5-100Hz range give or take, and you think balanced connections are going to make a difference?

Asking for the avScience here Kal. I run 100 feet unbalanced no problem in my studio are you saying that my stuff is all sent to ++++ because of a unbalanced line? Or that noise induced on a line that is going to be eventually reproduced by a 12 +inch driver, that this noise will be audible?

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post #159 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRR View Post

And you would need balanced connections on a 20-100 foot run for what reason again? We are talking about a unit that is operating in the 5-100Hz range give or take, and you think balanced connections are going to make a difference?

Asking for the avScience here Kal. I run 100 feet unbalanced no problem in my studio are you saying that my stuff is all sent to ++++ because of a unbalanced line? Or that noise induced on a line that is going to be eventually reproduced by a 12 +inch driver, that this noise will be audible?

Hum. Hummm. Sixty cycle hum would be reproduced by a 12" driver. And hum would be the most likely "noise" picked up by unbalanced lines.


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post #160 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Hum. Hummm. Sixty cycle hum would be reproduced by a 12" driver. And hum would be the most likely "noise" picked up by unbalanced lines.

Let's be real. You can do long runs of SE RCA-terminated cable without noise problems. My front interconnects are 10M and I have used SE and Bal without any noise problems in a Manhattan apartment. Noise from the street is another story...............................

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post #161 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 03:34 PM
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I suspect what Ed meant by 'concesion with Audyssey' had to do with a max price SVS set and Audyssey couldn't provide both bal/unbal connections and stay on budget.

Randy
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post #162 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Hum. Hummm. Sixty cycle hum would be reproduced by a 12" driver. And hum would be the most likely "noise" picked up by unbalanced lines.

60Hz hum is usually a ground loop, which would not be corrected in 99% of the cases by using XLR cables. And no 60Hz is not the noise that unbalanced lines picks up the easiest, again in most cases.

Science, please if some how I am wrong?
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post #163 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Let's be real. You can do long runs of SE RCA-terminated cable without noise problems. My front interconnects are 10M and I have used SE and Bal without any noise problems in a Manhattan apartment.

"Would be" is the operative phrase. Not "will be." For systems with interconnects not exposed to stray magnetic fields (or radio transmitters), balanced lines are not needed. From the rear equipment rack to the amps in the front of my room, my 8-ch snake comes near four or five lighting and outlet circuits - a few of them run parallel to my snake. I suppose I could have bought eight 50' SE cables and tried them, or somehow obtained some test gear to measure EMI, but it was simpler to buy an 8-ch balanced line snake and remove that as a possible issue. What's not real about that?


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post #164 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I suspect what Ed meant by 'concesion with Audyssey' had to do with a max price SVS set and Audyssey couldn't provide both bal/unbal connections and stay on budget.


I tend to agree with you, paying an extra couple hundred dollars (over the initial projection of $750) for balanced IO, for this external EQ doesn't make sense in the greater scheme of things.
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post #165 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRR View Post

60Hz hum is usually a ground loop, which would not be corrected in 99% of the cases by using XLR cables. And no 60Hz is not the noise that unbalanced lines picks up the easiest, again in most cases.

Science, please if some how I am wrong?

Can you point me to the science behind your statement regarding what is the easiest interference for balanced lines to pick up?

"From the rear equipment rack to the amps in the front of my room, my 8-ch snake comes near four or five lighting and outlet circuits - a few of them run parallel to my snake. I suppose I could have bought eight 50' SE cables and tried them, or somehow obtained some test gear to measure EMI, but it was simpler to buy an 8-ch balanced line snake and remove that as a possible issue."

Did I need balanced lines? Beats the snot out of me. Do I have a dead quiet system during silent parts when listening at high volume? Yep.


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post #166 of 6280 Old 05-19-2008, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I tend to agree with you, paying an extra couple hundred dollars (over the initial projection of $750) for balanced IO, for this external EQ doesn't make sense in the greater scheme of things.

That's correct. Two good baluns transformers would be right around $200. There are some sharp people involved here and I'm sure price point was a major determining factor.


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post #167 of 6280 Old 05-20-2008, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

"Would be" is the operative phrase. Not "will be." ........................... What's not real about that?

I don't think we are disagreeing, are we? In the vast majority of systems/situations, it will not matter which you use since there will be no noise of any significance. OTOH, there's no downside to BAL and, if you choose not to attempt using SE, that's fine. In fact, I went from SA to BAL for reasons other than noise as there was no difference in that regard.

OTOH, if you used only BAL, you cannot know if it had any advantage over SE but, then again, why would one need to know?

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post #168 of 6280 Old 05-20-2008, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I don't think we are disagreeing, are we? In the vast majority of systems/situations, it will not matter which you use since there will be no noise of any significance. OTOH, there's no downside to BAL and, if you choose not to attempt using SE, that's fine. In fact, I went from SA to BAL for reasons other than noise as there was no difference in that regard.

OTOH, if you used only BAL, you cannot know if it had any advantage over SE but, then again, why would one need to know?

It would be interesting to compare prices on a 50', 8-ch run for the two different methods. "Pro" gear is automatically both high quality, rugged and expensive, but I'll bet that most "consumers" doing a 50' run with single-ended would feel that they needed to step up and buy something higher gauge with more shielding - and maybe slicker ads - than what they'd use for a run inside a rack.

I'll edit this post so as to not add yet another OT one - I paid $175 for my 50', 8-ch balanced snake from AVCable. They have 50' SE cables at $21 each x 8 = $168. Blue Jeans has 50' SE cables at $100 EACH, which leads to a wacky 8-ch price. So, at 50' it's either a wash - leading me to conclude the additional ruggedness of XLRs put balanced over the finish line first - or balanced is dramatically less expensive than SE RCA-to-RCA.


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post #169 of 6280 Old 05-21-2008, 06:14 AM
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This was not a costing/pricing issue with SVS; we inquired about this many months ago and balanced connectors simply are not a vendor hardware option for this product.

If you already have XLR cables in your system or if the added durability of the XLR connector is appealing to those who make frequent equipment changes, then there is the option of using a male RCA-female XLR adapter.

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post #170 of 6280 Old 05-21-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

This was not a costing/pricing issue with SVS; we inquired about this many months ago and balanced connectors simply are not a vendor hardware option for this product.

I'm sure it will be groundbreaking even if we need to square knot our sub cables to a copper buss bar. We're all chomping at the bit for it. Let's go already!!!



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post #171 of 6280 Old 05-21-2008, 06:47 AM
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To re-ask my stupid question before... how is this different than the SMS-1?
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post #172 of 6280 Old 05-21-2008, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtwstr View Post

To re-ask my stupid question before... how is this different than the SMS-1?

Just on the surface, all other electronic correction - EQ's - only make changes in the frequency domain. Audyssey not only makes adjustments in the frequency domain, but in the time domain as well. "Traditional" EQ can only be set for one listening position. OK, it's a bit more complex than that, but involves one's seats to be placed precisely based on room dimensions. I'd don't know about you, but my seats are where they need to be for a lot of reasons and none of them are 5ths and 7ths of all three room axes.

Audyssey is able to "consider" many positions - MultEQ XT in some newer pre/pros and AVRs measures at eight positions - and make adjustments that improve ALL of the seating positions. IOW, it enlarges the sweet spot to more than one seat.

If all present EQ is checkers, then Audyssey is chess . . . 3D chess.


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post #173 of 6280 Old 05-21-2008, 07:19 AM
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I'd be interested to hear from Ed or Chris what advantages (in terms of DSP capacity etc.) adding an EQ1 might offer over an Audyssey Pro calibration of the same system.
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post #174 of 6280 Old 05-21-2008, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopstretch View Post

I'd be interested to hear from Ed or Chris what advantages (in terms of DSP capacity etc.) adding an EQ1 might offer over an Audyssey Pro calibration of the same system.

The unit can phase and equalize dual subwoofers independently, whereas the Pro box cannot. The filter resolution and processing power are comparable to the Pro box but there are differences in the correction algorithms, the specifics of which are proprietary.

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Ed, I think that many current Audyssey Pro owners are likely to be interested in the AS-EQ1 as well. Can you comment on the interaction and/or coordination of the EQ1 with what MultEQ XT and Pro are doing? Will they "know" about each other?

- Jeff


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post #176 of 6280 Old 05-21-2008, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Ed, I think that many current Audyssey Pro owners are likely to be interested in the AS-EQ1 as well. Can you comment on the interaction and/or coordination of the EQ1 with what MultEQ XT and Pro are doing? Will they "know" about each other?

- Jeff

The AS-EQ1 will interface seamlessly with MultEQ XT (or similar Audy EQ routines). There will be a set-up mode in the AS-EQ1 which will allow the AVR to equalize everything but the subwoofer channel without any problems or error messages.

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post #177 of 6280 Old 05-21-2008, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Ed.... I hate to be the one asking, but do you possibly have somewhat of an idea of when you guys will be done testing and will be sending it to market...?


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post #178 of 6280 Old 05-22-2008, 03:08 PM
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Hey Ed.... I hate to be the one asking, but do you possibly have somewhat of an idea of when you guys will be done testing and will be sending it to market...?

+2?
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post #179 of 6280 Old 05-22-2008, 04:45 PM
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WOW; a couple hundred - how is this determined? That's 2/3 the price of an ep2500. XLR is implemented on too much gear for this to be so; I'm not buying this...

I had high hopes here too.

Larry

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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I tend to agree with you, paying an extra couple hundred dollars (over the initial projection of $750) for balanced IO, for this external EQ doesn't make sense in the greater scheme of things.

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post #180 of 6280 Old 05-22-2008, 04:45 PM
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-1; sorry couldn't resist

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+2?

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