OFFICIAL Hsu MBM-12 thread - Page 17 - AVS Forum
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post #481 of 506 Old 09-13-2014, 07:42 AM
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HSU Mid-Bass Module

First time post here at AVS. I've have twin Mid-Bass modules and twin USL-15 subs for some time now. Since this is my first AVS post I'm not allowed to post links. If you Google (MBM Adding Weight & Body) you will find my thread over at the Decware forum for a lengthy discussion.

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb2...num=1360355711

An important area I cover later in the thread is potential ground loop hum on the MBM-12's. HSU elected to use a 2 conductor power cord Hot & Neutral (No Earth Ground). In some cases this produces a low level 60hz hum (ground loop) causing a boomy effect if you turn the MBM volume up past about about 10 O'clock. In my case it was a simple fix as described and I now run the MBM volume at about 1 O'clock with very smooth & solid mid-bass. So if your MBM gets boomy as you turn it up anywhere near 12 O'clock then you will want to check this portion of the thread out.

IMO run the MBM full range 150hz. Even though this overlaps your mains it integrates seamlessly. The MBM due to it's specific design will reproduce the 50-150hz range with more punch and clarity than your mains are capable of. In my thread I reference a link to an interactive chart that provides a graphic display of how music material resides in the 50-150 range. I listen at much lower volume levels now because the music is so much fuller and with improved clarity.

I use twin MBM's running full range located along the front wall near my mains to avoid localization. This works great on music & HT. I've experimented with a single MBM located anywhere between the mains and get about 90% of the performance compared to using two MBM's. So you don't need two MBM's to get a big performance upgrade.

Last edited by D-Shark; 10-23-2014 at 12:19 PM.
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post #482 of 506 Old 10-10-2014, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Shark View Post
First time post here at AVS. I've have twin Mid-Bass modules and twin USL-15 subs for some time now. Since this is my first AVS post I'm not allowed to post links. If you Google (MBM Adding Weight & Body) you will find my thread over at the Decware forum for a lengthy discussion.

An important area I cover later in the thread is potential ground loop hum on the MBM-12's. HSU elected to use a 2 conductor power cord Hot & Neutral (No Earth Ground). In some cases this produces a low level 60hz hum (ground loop) causing a boomy effect if you turn the MBM volume up past about about 10 O'clock. In my case it was a simple fix as described and I now run the MBM volume at about 1 O'clock with very smooth & solid mid-bass. So if your MBM gets boomy as you turn it up anywhere near 12 O'clock then you will want to check this portion of the thread out.

IMO run the MBM full range 150hz. Even though this overlaps your mains it integrates seamlessly. The MBM due to it's specific design will reproduce the 50-150hz range with more punch and clarity than your mains are capable of. In my thread I reference a link to an interactive chart that provides a graphic display of how music material resides in the 50-150 range. I listen at much lower volume levels now because the music is so much fuller and with improved clarity.

I use twin MBM's running full range located along the front wall near my mains to avoid localization. This works great on music & HT. I've experimented with a single MBM located anywhere between the mains and get about 90% of the performance compared to using two MBM's. So you don't need two MBM's to get a big performance upgrade.
How far from the front wall do you have the mbm? Do you run the sub out to the mbm, speaker wire or left/right rca preouts?
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post #483 of 506 Old 10-11-2014, 05:48 AM
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I have two HSU subs, a VTF-3 MK3 and VTF-3 MK4. I've been thinking about getting a MBM-12 for years and D-Sharks comments from this forum and Decware is getting my interest again, especially since I'm building a new home theater in my basement right now.

I have a question. I have a Denon x4000 with Audyssey XT32 with Sub EQ HT. Each of my current subs will be connected separately (Sub 1 / Sub 2) to the x4000 as recommended, and using the XT32 with Sub EQ HT version of Audyssey.
What would be the best way to integrate a MBM-12 with my setup? I want to make sure I take advantage of the MBM-12 frequency response of 50-150Hz for added music enjoyment. I’m thinking of placement between my left and right speakers which are Energy Connoisseur Series C-1 Bookshelf speakers and matching center C-3.

Should I just split one of the subwoofer line outs on the x4000, leave the left, right, center, and surrounds at 80Hz crossover and set the “LPF for LFE” on the x4000 to 150Hz? And then leave all the sub Crossovers in the Out(off) positions like I normally do so the AVR can control this?

-Tom

Last edited by Tom899; 10-11-2014 at 07:44 AM. Reason: adding more information
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post #484 of 506 Old 10-14-2014, 11:24 AM
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If anyone is interested in a sealed MBM MK1 let me know. I've determined I have to much subwooferage and looking to upgrade to Atmos so something has got to go. In perfect working condition and good physical condition, i.e. small scuff on the top and the plastic feet are a little flat on the bottom. Can't really notice it unless your sitting near the MBM.


Thanks!
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post #485 of 506 Old 10-15-2014, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
I have two HSU subs, a VTF-3 MK3 and VTF-3 MK4. I've been thinking about getting a MBM-12 for years and D-Sharks comments from this forum and Decware is getting my interest again, especially since I'm building a new home theater in my basement right now.

I have a question. I have a Denon x4000 with Audyssey XT32 with Sub EQ HT. Each of my current subs will be connected separately (Sub 1 / Sub 2) to the x4000 as recommended, and using the XT32 with Sub EQ HT version of Audyssey.
What would be the best way to integrate a MBM-12 with my setup? I want to make sure I take advantage of the MBM-12 frequency response of 50-150Hz for added music enjoyment. I’m thinking of placement between my left and right speakers which are Energy Connoisseur Series C-1 Bookshelf speakers and matching center C-3.

Should I just split one of the subwoofer line outs on the x4000, leave the left, right, center, and surrounds at 80Hz crossover and set the “LPF for LFE” on the x4000 to 150Hz? And then leave all the sub Crossovers in the Out(off) positions like I normally do so the AVR can control this?
Where are the two subs located? I don't know enough about how Denon's (or any manufacturer's) XT-32 works to give a best answer. The safest way is to treat all three as one sub, setting both VTF-3s crossover to in, 50 Hz, MBM crossover to out. The settings you suggest on the receiver for crossover sounds good. That is the only way to ensure that the MBM handles all the bass from 50 Hz up, and the VTF-3s handle all the bass from 50 Hz down.

Last edited by dr_hsu; 10-15-2014 at 07:40 AM. Reason: edit spacing
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post #486 of 506 Old 10-15-2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post
Where are the two subs located? I don't know enough about how Denon's (or any manufacturer's) XT-32 works to give a best answer. The safest way is to treat all three as one sub, setting both VTF-3s crossover to in, 50 Hz, MBM crossover to out. The settings you suggest on the receiver for crossover sounds good. That is the only way to ensure that the MBM handles all the bass from 50 Hz up, and the VTF-3s handle all the bass from 50 Hz down.
Thanks for the reply and advise dr_hsu. I will try it as you suggest. I want to also try it another way. Another forum member has hooked it up splicing the front and left front speakers and hooking to the MBM-12 through the high level speaker terminals. Set the crossovers to the front speakers around 50Hz and adjust the MBM-12 volume knob to the desired level. So, I have two ways to try it.
My VTF-3 MK3 and VTF-3 MK4 locations, one located in the right front corner and one located against the wall half way from the right front corner to the seating.

-Tom
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post #487 of 506 Old 10-19-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
Thanks for the reply and advise dr_hsu. I will try it as you suggest. I want to also try it another way. Another forum member has hooked it up splicing the front and left front speakers and hooking to the MBM-12 through the high level speaker terminals. Set the crossovers to the front speakers around 50Hz and adjust the MBM-12 volume knob to the desired level. So, I have two ways to try it.
My VTF-3 MK3 and VTF-3 MK4 locations, one located in the right front corner and one located against the wall half way from the right front corner to the seating.
Tom899,

I got your PM a couple days ago and responded but just now realized it did not go through since I have not met the minimum number of posts required on this site. So I will provide a couple of comments here.

First off you need to know that my system is 2-Channel. I do use the system for HT but it's is tuned primarily for music listening which by the way sounds very good on HT also. I was not sure if you are doing Music, HT or both?

When you introduce the Mid Bass Module into your system I suggest you play some familiar music with your subs turned OFF and no type of EQ to get a feel for what the MBM does. Run the Crossover at 150hz (max) and set the volume to augment the Mid Bass to your Liking. As I mentioned previously your MBM should be dead quiet with your player on pause. If it is not completely quiet (no hum) let me know.

Once you have a feel for the MBM bring in the one sub you have along the front wall. I suggest a crossover setting of 45hz and adjust the volume accordingly. I was a little concerned about the second sub along the sidewall and possible cancellation issues? Let us know how that has been working out.

I have twin ULS-15's and twin Mid Bass Modules running them in a stacked configuration right now. I'm using Arulex isolation platforms under the subs & MBM's.

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post #488 of 506 Old 10-19-2014, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Shark View Post
Tom899,

I got your PM a couple days ago and responded but just now realized it did not go through since I have not met the minimum number of posts required on this site. So I will provide a couple of comments here.

First off you need to know that my system is 2-Channel. I do use the system for HT but it's is tuned primarily for music listening which by the way sounds very good on HT also. I was not sure if you are doing Music, HT or both?

When you introduce the Mid Bass Module into your system I suggest you play some familiar music with your subs turned OFF and no type of EQ to get a feel for what the MBM does. Run the Crossover at 150hz (max) and set the volume to augment the Mid Bass to your Liking. As I mentioned previously your MBM should be dead quiet with your player on pause. If it is not completely quiet (no hum) let me know.

Once you have a feel for the MBM bring in the one sub you have along the front wall. I suggest a crossover setting of 45hz and adjust the volume accordingly. I was a little concerned about the second sub along the sidewall and possible cancellation issues? Let us know how that has been working out.

I have twin ULS-15's and twin Mid Bass Modules running them in a stacked configuration right now. I'm using Arulex isolation platforms under the subs & MBM's.

D-Shark, nice system you have! I thought something was wrong when I didn't hear back from you. Thanks for replying.
My main sub locations are just virtual right now. Another forum member figured out my nulls per room dimensions and volume. It showed it might make sense to put one of the subs mid wall, so just a starting point. Since this is a dedicated room for my stuff I can put them anyplace and I have a lot of experimenting ahead of me. The system will be for both HT and music, I know it's not ideal but I would like to do the best I can. I bought the MBM-12 to mostly help with music. I have to turn my system way up for music to sound good. After reading about how this helps music I couldn't resist!
I'm still thinking of hooking it up splicing the front speakers and going to the high level MBM-12 inputs. I don't want to treat it like a sub, rather an extension of my front speakers. Does this make sense?

-Tom
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post #489 of 506 Old 10-19-2014, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
D-Shark, nice system you have! I thought something was wrong when I didn't hear back from you. Thanks for replying.
My main sub locations are just virtual right now. Another forum member figured out my nulls per room dimensions and volume. It showed it might make sense to put one of the subs mid wall, so just a starting point. Since this is a dedicated room for my stuff I can put them anyplace and I have a lot of experimenting ahead of me. The system will be for both HT and music, I know it's not ideal but I would like to do the best I can. I bought the MBM-12 to mostly help with music. I have to turn my system way up for music to sound good. After reading about how this helps music I couldn't resist!
I'm still thinking of hooking it up splicing the front speakers and going to the high level MBM-12 inputs. I don't want to treat it like a sub, rather an extension of my front speakers. Does this make sense?
Tom899,

Some have strong opinions in favor using Line Level connections (interconnects) over Speaker Level connections (speaker wire) whenever possible. Since I use a Tube Amp I use the Speaker Level connection method so that the Mid Bass Module receives and more closely reproduces the Tube Amp sound or amp signature. In my system this connection method integrates seamlessly with my mains.

I mentioned I used CAT-5 cable to connect via speaker level from my Mains to the Mid Bass Module. I used the CAT-5 because I had some, it is relatively inexpensive and it was easy to run while sounding good in the lower Bass region. CAT-5 due to it's design resists picking up external noise which is a plus when routing the cable around subs.

This is not the best Pic but shown here is the back of my sub with Cat-5 coming in from the Left Main and Daisy Chaining out to my Left MBM. The Sub & MBM are virtually no load to your amp. You may also notice the Green Test Lead with alligator clips from the Sub toggle switch to Earth Ground on my power strip. By doing this I eliminated a low level AC hum that interfered with Sub and MBM performance.

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post #490 of 506 Old 10-19-2014, 05:04 PM
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Tom899,

Some have strong opinions in favor using Line Level connections (interconnects) over Speaker Level connections (speaker wire) whenever possible. Since I use a Tube Amp I use the Speaker Level connection method so that the Mid Bass Module receives and more closely reproduces the Tube Amp sound or amp signature. In my system this connection method integrates seamlessly with my mains.

I mentioned I used CAT-5 cable to connect via speaker level from my Mains to the Mid Bass Module. I used the CAT-5 because I had some, it is relatively inexpensive and it was easy to run while sounding good in the lower Bass region. CAT-5 due to it's design resists picking up external noise which is a plus when routing the cable around subs.

This is not the best Pic but shown here is the back of my sub with Cat-5 coming in from the Left Main and Daisy Chaining out to my Left MBM. The Sub & MBM are virtually no load to your amp. You may also notice the Green Test Lead with alligator clips from the Sub toggle switch to Earth Ground on my power strip. By doing this I eliminated a low level AC hum that interfered with Sub and MBM performance.

Thanks for the picture. I'll be trying this, nothing to lose, and it might be just what I'm looking for.
Thanks

-Tom
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post #491 of 506 Old 10-23-2014, 09:43 PM
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Hello everyone and greetings from New Orleans. I just picked up an MBM-12 Mk. 2 for use in a two-channel system comprising Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 bookshelf monitors (RAAL ribbon tweeter) and a Hsu TN-1220 passive sub powered by a Hsu dedicated external 500-watt amplifier incorporating low and high-pass filters. Crossover to the sub is 80Hz via an Emotiva DC-1 DAC/preamp and an Emotiva XPA-200 amp.

I know Hsu typically recommends placing the sub in a front corner and the MBM in a nearfield position. In my room (12x25x7), a "sub crawl" shows that the tightest bass from the TN1220 is when the sub is placed just a couple of feet away from my LP, very close to the MBM, which is directly behind me. Preliminary results are quite good, with no localization issues when the MBM crosses over at about 120Hz.

I'll go ahead and experiment with alternative placements, but is there anything intrinsically wrong with placing the sub and MBM so close together?


Many thanks...A.
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post #492 of 506 Old 10-23-2014, 10:47 PM
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There is nothing wrong with that placement, it all depends on your results. If it sounds good, it is good.
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post #493 of 506 Old 10-24-2014, 09:15 AM
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There is nothing wrong with that placement, it all depends on your results. If it sounds good, it is good.
I have a set of MBM-12s (50-80 Hz). Each is paired with an ULS-15 (16-50 Hz)and calibrated together. The subs are in a front and back corner along a far wall and the MBMs are next to them, but out of the corners. I have a mid-bass house curve to suit my music habit, but no localization.

Hope that helps.
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post #494 of 506 Old 10-25-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by movies2090 View Post
I just purchased an MBM after reading many of the threads in here on how it was a great upgrade for the price. I am pairing it with a SVS PB12-ISD. I have the MBM behind my recliner about 7ft (regular sub is 13ft away) After my initial runthrough I have to say I don't see much of a difference. IT just feels like a sub that I put behind me. Nothing more nothing less. It seems just like any other sub. I'm not a HUGE audiophile but I like my stuff to sound great. I think I'm gonna do some more testing tomorrow on my off day but as of right now I'll probably be sending it back for refund. I will say it did sound good RIGHT behind my recliner but it isn't a practical spot and I'm sure it would be annoying after a 2/3 hour movie. I have my main sub set to 50hz and below and the MBM at 50 and up. It was turned about to about 9 o clock. These are just my thoughts though... OH and by the way I have a 3000cubic/ft room.
I use my Mid Base Module primarily for music listening, have it sitting between and along the same plane as my front main speakers with the crossover at the MBM set Max (150hz) and the enhancement is very positive. IMO for music the MBM needs to be run full range (50 to 150hz) to get the Mid Bass magic that music has to offer. Placed up front near the mains and set at 150hz the MBM blends seamlessly with my mains and there is no Localization (my mains are running Full Range).

Placing the MBM near the Listening Position works great for Movies but causes localization issues on music. Near field Localization forces you to reduce the MBM crossover down to about 80hz and then yes it's only doing what most subs crossed over at 80hz would do. The Magic in music lies in the 80 to 150hz range (drums & guitar really come alive).

I assume you are feeding your MBM via low level connections (interconnects verses speaker level) from some type of AV processor? You need to be sure your processor's internal crossover (if there is one) is OFF. In other words if your AV processor crossover is set at 80hz then the MBM module is not getting a signal higher than 80hz. My front Mains are set to Full Range and my Mid Bass Module simply augments on top of the mains and it is seamless. No need to get uptight about having a particular crossover point between the Mains and Mid Bass Module. Run your Mains Full Range and let the MBM run 50 to 150hz on top of the Mains (it works).

With the Mid Bass Module you have to figure out what camp you are in. Some just want to be pummeled to death on Movies and Near-field placement will do that. If you want Music accuracy and Weight then place the Mid Bass Module up front somewhere between the mains with it's crossover set to Max (150hz). This will sound surprisingly good on Movies as well (I use my system for both).

I think the mistake most people make is they approach the Mid Bass Module as simply a Wimpy Sub that only goes down to 50hz. This is not a Subwoofer, it's a Mid Bass Module designed to accurately reproduce Mid Bass between 50 & 150hz. Music has a lot happening in that range as this Interactive Frequency Chart demonstrates:

http://www.independentrecording.net/...in_display.htm
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post #495 of 506 Old 10-25-2014, 12:13 PM
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This link to "Human Ear Sensitivity By Frequency" chart helps to visualize how the Mid Bass Module helps so much on music (especially at lower or moderate volumes). According to the Chart sensitivity of the human ear starts to drop off quickly below 250hz. Point being even though your Sound Pressure Level meter says your system has Flat Frequency Response down to 25hz the Human ear does not. This chart defines Sub Bass as 16 to 60hz and Bass as 60 to 250hz.

Using a Sub Woofer to reproduce frequencies up to 50hz and the Mid Bass Module for frequencies 50 to 150hz allows you to boost that frequency range where Human Ear Sensitivity is at it's lowest.

http://www.independentrecording.net/...ensitivity.htm
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post #496 of 506 Old 10-25-2014, 01:54 PM
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I dusted off my MBM (original ported version) having just moved to a much bigger home with a much bigger home theater location in my new home. (couldn't really use it for the last few years due to the birth of my kid... LOL.


a few questions.

I'm running as my main subs dual rythmik D15SE's (sealed subs) with my Denon X4100. The denon has the newer 2 output sub option with the audyssey multi xt32 etc.

I set up my MBM nearfield behind my couch. The rythmiks remain up front with the mains. I crossed the rythmiks at 50 on the subs themselves and the MBM is crossed via the denon internally.

I split the rythmik's via rca cable into the Denon sub out #2 (so both identical rythmiks are receiving the LFE from that line out), I then used the sub line 1 out on the denon for just the MBM.

Is this the best way to sync up all 3 them? or should I only use 1 sub out and split them all together on the same line? (that seems like it would be more difficult for audyssey to do it's thing with unmatched subs etc....so I didn't do it that way. Am I wrong about that?

can't really find any info on this.

I can't be the only one with duals (and an avr that has the updated 2 sub out EQ) and an MBM using audyssey for EQ or am I?

thanks.
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post #497 of 506 Old 11-19-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post
I dusted off my MBM (original ported version) having just moved to a much bigger home with a much bigger home theater location in my new home. (couldn't really use it for the last few years due to the birth of my kid... LOL.


a few questions.

I'm running as my main subs dual rythmik D15SE's (sealed subs) with my Denon X4100. The denon has the newer 2 output sub option with the audyssey multi xt32 etc.

I set up my MBM nearfield behind my couch. The rythmiks remain up front with the mains. I crossed the rythmiks at 50 on the subs themselves and the MBM is crossed via the denon internally.

I split the rythmik's via rca cable into the Denon sub out #2 (so both identical rythmiks are receiving the LFE from that line out), I then used the sub line 1 out on the denon for just the MBM.

Is this the best way to sync up all 3 them? or should I only use 1 sub out and split them all together on the same line? (that seems like it would be more difficult for audyssey to do it's thing with unmatched subs etc....so I didn't do it that way. Am I wrong about that?

can't really find any info on this.

I can't be the only one with duals (and an avr that has the updated 2 sub out EQ) and an MBM using audyssey for EQ or am I?

thanks.

How did you make out with this? I have a very similar setup, still a few weeks away from setting it up.

-Tom
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post #498 of 506 Old 11-21-2014, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
How did you make out with this? I have a very similar setup, still a few weeks away from setting it up.

I got it to work with sub eq but I wasn't that impressed with the sound as I still find the MBM-12 too easy to locate and I only really like the effect nearfield.


I just did what I had said above. 2 primary subs on 1 of the denon's sub output, and put the MBM-12 on the other. (The denon's dual sub outs are independent of each other so they both get separate eq's. So in theory it all works like it should.

I just found the MBM-12 to be too directional and the entire point of it for me was to keep it near my listening point.

I found it better to just keep one sub near me and the other in a corner. Lessons the ability to localize them. And you still get the chest thump plus the low LFE.
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post #499 of 506 Old 11-21-2014, 06:59 AM
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Basically if you don't mind "hearing" where the MBM-12 is, it's fantastic. Really puts out the upper bass slam. I just can't square knowing that I can tell where the Bass is coming from so easily.

Probably would be best to have Dual MBM's with Dual subs and place them all around the MLP.
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post #500 of 506 Old 11-21-2014, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post
Basically if you don't mind "hearing" where the MBM-12 is, it's fantastic. Really puts out the upper bass slam. I just can't square knowing that I can tell where the Bass is coming from so easily.

Probably would be best to have Dual MBM's with Dual subs and place them all around the MLP.

Thanks, I have a lot of experimenting to do, but it should be fun!

-Tom
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post #501 of 506 Unread 12-05-2014, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
Thanks, I have a lot of experimenting to do, but it should be fun!
Please post your results. I'm going into almost the same situation at some point (but will have only 1 sub for some time).

I'm building a media room in the basement, and I need to figure out what cables to run where. Do I need both Sub1 and Sub 2 lines daisy chained around the room serving corners and mid walls?

D-Shark even has me considering running speaker wire to side midwall for nearfield placement.

Equipment: Denon x4000 or x4100, Energy RC-70 mains. Energy/Mirage surrounds. 1 TBD HSU, and a potential MBM.
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Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post
I found it better to just keep one sub near me and the other in a corner. Lessons the ability to localize them. And you still get the chest thump plus the low LFE.
So, did you wind up with the MBM and one of the Rythmics nearfield?

Anyone know if an MBM would have sufficient impact in a smaller room (12x21x7) when placed up front and center, instead of nearfield?
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post
The safest way is to treat all three as one sub, setting both VTF-3s crossover to in, 50 Hz, MBM crossover to out.
I'm no Audyssey expert, but I think the advantage of having them separate is that the receiver will be able to time align them to the listening point.
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Now, if Audyssey allows you to specify what frequency range goes to which subwoofer out, then of course it would be much better if you hook each of them to separate sub outs.

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I'm no Audyssey expert, but I think the advantage of having them separate is that the receiver will be able to time align them to the listening point.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan__ View Post
So, did you wind up with the MBM and one of the Rythmics nearfield?

Anyone know if an MBM would have sufficient impact in a smaller room (12x21x7) when placed up front and center, instead of nearfield?

I wound up with just using the Rythmik's, one near and one with the mains, corner loaded. scrapped the idea of using the MBM.

Then I ordered 2 more Rythmik's.



I would think the MBM would work well in a smaller room.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan__ View Post
So, did you wind up with the MBM and one of the Rythmics nearfield?

Anyone know if an MBM would have sufficient impact in a smaller room (12x21x7) when placed up front and center, instead of nearfield?
I believe MBM will work best when placed nearfield in front of you (leg rest).
I used to placed a MBM behind my seat (also work as free buttkicker), however, it can be localized easily.
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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