OFFICIAL Hsu MBM-12 thread - Page 19 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #541 of 572 Old 05-24-2015, 01:05 PM
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Lol, you're a lucky guy!

I think another VTF3 would be better, and may have more mid bass output too, but the MBM should be good, and you can just send it back without too much expense if it doesn't quite do the trick. I would ask Hsu how they would compare in this situation.
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post #542 of 572 Old 05-24-2015, 02:20 PM
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OMG that's a cramped space. I see your problem. Too bad you couldn't put 1 by the right speaker, and the other by the SR speaker. Front and back, yeeha.

Could you put them opposite each other by SR and SL? Still 180ΒΊ from each other, and near field (close to LP).

I'm going to draw some fire here and say that a THIRD huge sub in that space is just obscene. Shouldn't need it.

Did you say you have your mains set SMALL in the AVR and have bass management sending X < 80Hz to the subs equally? Maybe set the cross over to 120Hz so the mains can breath a little and those Abrams tank subs can do some booming for them.

Some quick links for reading:

http://www.audioholics.com/home-thea...ent-guidelines

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer...-part-1-page-6

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post #543 of 572 Old 05-24-2015, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
Lol, you're a lucky guy!

I think another VTF3 would be better, and may have more mid bass output too, but the MBM should be good, and you can just send it back without too much expense if it doesn't quite do the trick. I would ask Hsu how they would compare in this situation.
When I was shopping, I was considering a VTF-1 and MBM-12 together (both on sale, woo-hoo) to take more bass off my Bose 401s. Kevin (Hsu) talked me out of it, said the single VTF-2 in my space would be fine, and if it wasn't, well then I could add another sub... later. He was right! The VTF-2 handles from 120Hz or 110Hz and down from the AVR, sounds great, freq sweeps from 10Hz - 200Hz are continuous and smooth (can't audibly tell where the cross over is).

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post #544 of 572 Old 05-25-2015, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
When I was shopping, I was considering a VTF-1 and MBM-12 together (both on sale, woo-hoo) to take more bass off my Bose 401s. Kevin (Hsu) talked me out of it, said the single VTF-2 in my space would be fine, and if it wasn't, well then I could add another sub... later. He was right! The VTF-2 handles from 120Hz or 110Hz and down from the AVR, sounds great, freq sweeps from 10Hz - 200Hz are continuous and smooth (can't audibly tell where the cross over is).
I'm pretty ignorant on audio still. I thought you didn't really want to crossover higher than 80hz unless your mains struggled that low. I do have a couple 5 db dips around the crossover point crossing at 80. The dips do go away when I cross at 120hz. Is 5db enough to merit crossing higher? I feel like crossing higher is somehow 'wasting' my mains potential. They go pretty low. Would you still recommend crossing at 120z? A picture of JUST my two mains (no subs) FR is below.



And yeah those two dips suck! I have no idea why that's there. Different toe-in has no affect.

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post #545 of 572 Old 05-25-2015, 12:14 PM
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Toe-in isn't going to effect bass that low. If it were me, I would do whatever it takes to get a flat response, including raising the crossover. Keep in mind that from reading your posts, it also doesn't sound like you want a flat response but elevated bass. An MBM would certainly shore up that dip between 70 - 120 Hz.
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post #546 of 572 Old 05-25-2015, 01:38 PM
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What he said ^. Somewhere on one of these threads here (the Yamaha *75 or *77 owners thread) I quote a couple of sources talking about how it improves efficiency and power management if you take away the burden of creating lower frequencies in the mains. Certainly, if you can remedy those dips, do it.

Someone remembered seeing the response curves for my 401 and there was unevenness even at 130Hz.
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post #547 of 572 Old 05-25-2015, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
Toe-in isn't going to effect bass that low. If it were me, I would do whatever it takes to get a flat response, including raising the crossover. Keep in mind that from reading your posts, it also doesn't sound like you want a flat response but elevated bass. An MBM would certainly shore up that dip between 70 - 120 Hz.
Ok thanks, I switched to 120hz and went back and forth between that and 80hz on some movies.. The 80hz sounds better. I can hear certain details better on surround sounds.

I shall order the MBM and see what happens. I think I'll add it in the chain after Audyssey so it's almost like a 'double bass' for 50-80 HZ.

My AVR has two sub outs with independent levels and controls (NOT internal y cable). If the sub output I hook it up to already has a 12 foot delay (because that's where it found the true sub), do I basically need to add the distance it is from that same true sub in the AVR?
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post #548 of 572 Old 05-25-2015, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post
Hi dimetera,

Quote:Originally Posted by dimetera413

So let me get this straight. I have a SVS PB12-NSD and if I were to get a MBM-12, how would the settings go. I have SVS SCS-01 fronts and rears that handle down to 60hz. SVS recommends setting the crossover on the reciever as 80hz(and they were right) and then disabling the xover switch on the PB12. Now would I have to just connect the MBM to my second sub output on my yamaha 663 (7.2) and then play with the levels on the MBM? Or would I have to mess with the reciever xover settings? or both?


Set the crossover frequency on your receiver to 80Hz for all channels. On the MBM, set the crossover switch to 'Out' (which bypasses the internal crossover on the MBM). On your true subwoofer, engage the internal crossover and set the crossover knob to ~ 50Hz.

You can connect the MBM to one sub pre-out on the receiver, and the true sub to the second sub pre-out on the receiver. Presumably each sub pre-out sends the exact same output signal, so both the MBM and the true sub will receive the same signal (the MBM will naturally roll off the lower frequencies sent to it, while the true sub crossover will roll off the higher frequencies sent to it).

On the receiver, set the subwoofer distance equal to the distance between the listening position and the MBM. Adjust the MBM volume knob so that the MBM level is in balance with the true subwoofer, and then adjust the subwoofer channel level on the receiver so that the combined MBM/true sub level is in balance with the mains.

Sincerely,
This is the money post!

Do you think it would be best to do all this and introduce the MBM AFTER Audyssey? Or level match MBM with true sub and then run Audyssey?
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post #549 of 572 Old 05-27-2015, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
I'm pretty ignorant on audio still. I thought you didn't really want to crossover higher than 80hz unless your mains struggled that low. I do have a couple 5 db dips around the crossover point crossing at 80. The dips do go away when I cross at 120hz. Is 5db enough to merit crossing higher? I feel like crossing higher is somehow 'wasting' my mains potential. They go pretty low. Would you still recommend crossing at 120z? A picture of JUST my two mains (no subs) FR is below.



And yeah those two dips suck! I have no idea why that's there. Different toe-in has no affect.

Sounds like a phase issue.
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post #550 of 572 Old 05-28-2015, 06:59 AM
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anyone wanting to sell a BLACK mbm mkII drop me a PM...

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post #551 of 572 Old 05-28-2015, 08:44 PM
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Just ordered MBM12 for placement directly behind MLP.

I have two VTF3 MK5's.

Audyssey XT32 with dual (independent) sub outputs. Also have minidsp.

Should I hook two subs through miniDsp and into one of the sub outputs and then MBM through MiniDsp and other sub output?

If so MBM will have proper delay via Audyssey. But other two subs, should I just ZERO out what Audyssey sets for their outputs distance - and then put each of their seperate distances in the minidsp?

Sound like a good plan?
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post #552 of 572 Old 05-29-2015, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Just ordered MBM12 for placement directly behind MLP.

I have two VTF3 MK5's.

Audyssey XT32 with dual (independent) sub outputs. Also have minidsp.

Should I hook two subs through miniDsp and into one of the sub outputs and then MBM through MiniDsp and other sub output?

If so MBM will have proper delay via Audyssey. But other two subs, should I just ZERO out what Audyssey sets for their outputs distance - and then put each of their seperate distances in the minidsp?

Sound like a good plan?
I don't think you'll need The MiniDSP with XT32. Seems like a placement and phase (distance tweak) issue(s).

There's a simple, but clever guide to setting up the MBM-12 some posts ago.

Hope that's helpful.
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post #553 of 572 Old 05-29-2015, 03:14 PM
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*OK I found answer to my question. With both subs going to one sub output, you ideally want to add a delay on the closest sub.

If you figure out how much closer the nearest sub is and add appropriate delay, then both subs will be reaching MLP at same time.

Then you can still run Audyssey or whatever and it will be spot on. This article explains the formula. A minidsp or something to actually add delay to multiple subs is obviously needed.
HOW TO TIME ALIGN MULTIPLE SUBS ON SINGLE AVR SUB OUTPUT USING MINIDSP

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post #554 of 572 Old 05-31-2015, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
*OK I found answer to my question. With both subs going to one sub output, you ideally want to add a delay on the closest sub.

If you figure out how much closer the nearest sub is and add appropriate delay, then both subs will be reaching MLP at same time.

Then you can still run Audyssey or whatever and it will be spot on. This article explains the formula. A minidsp or something to actually add delay to multiple subs is obviously needed.
HOW TO TIME ALIGN MULTIPLE SUBS ON SINGLE AVR SUB OUTPUT USING MINIDSP
What receiver do you have?

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post #555 of 572 Old 05-31-2015, 11:15 AM
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What receiver do you have?
Denon X4100w - had multi sub eq = dual independent sub outputs.

So I will put two true subs through minidsp and into one AVR sub output. I will put delay on closest true sub via minidsp so that both subs are reaching MLP at same time. Audyssey will read it as one sub and EQ appropriately.

I will put MBM through minidsp and into the other sub output so Audyssey will eq and set distance appropriately as well.

Then I will be able to adjust all three subs eq with minidsp afterwards as needed. I like to get a slope going from 100hz up to 30hz.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense. I'm going to have everything crossed at 80hz. MBM set to out. Two true subs set to in and their crossovers at 50hz.

I'll report back how it all works out.
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post #556 of 572 Old 06-07-2015, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

I would use the internal MBM crossover with the speaker wire running from the receiver to the MBM, then to the speaker. Use the MBM crossover to blend the speakers and the MBMs to your liking. You'll most likely get a lot more mid-bass slam letting the MBMs handle up to 100~150Hz. Lower if you want the towers to play more of the mid-bass. You can experiment to see what sounds best.
If you run left and right speakers through MBM, while MBM set to IN and let's say crossover at 120... Does the MBM stop the speakers from playing under 120hz?

I'm considering getting another MBM and trying it with each speaker. But I don't like the idea of both MBM and speakers playing under 120hz.

I'm also hesitant to want my mains set to large but I believe I have to, if I want to run MBM with them? I'm worried about what content under 50hz I might lose because it won't go to the true subs if I set mains to large.
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post #557 of 572 Old 06-07-2015, 05:41 PM
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I don't think the MBM-12 will filter anything out when using the high level outputs, but better ask Hsu about that in an email to be 100% sure. It's hard to see how a high pass filter would be used between the MBM and speaker when using the high level inputs and outputs. Why not set the crossover in the receiver to a high point, say 120, and use the MBMs on the sub-out connection on the receiver? You can turn on the main subwoofer's crossover and set them to maybe 50 or 60 hz, and the MBM's will pick up all the bass above that and below 120 Hz. If you don't want the MBMs to try to play bass below 50/60 Hz, get a high pass filter like this one, which is a lot easier done than at high level speaker cables.
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post #558 of 572 Old 06-07-2015, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
I don't think the MBM-12 will filter anything out when using the high level outputs, but better ask Hsu about that in an email to be 100% sure. It's hard to see how a high pass filter would be used between the MBM and speaker when using the high level inputs and outputs. Why not set the crossover in the receiver to a high point, say 120, and use the MBMs on the sub-out connection on the receiver? You can turn on the main subwoofer's crossover and set them to maybe 50 or 60 hz, and the MBM's will pick up all the bass above that and below 120 Hz. If you don't want the MBMs to try to play bass below 50/60 Hz, get a high pass filter like this one, which is a lot easier done than at high level speaker cables.
I can't have the MBM play more than 80hz... It's already starting to localize at 80hz crossovers. I should have just listened to you and got a third sub if anything. I've tried integrating the MBM near field and its wreaks havocs on what WAS a flat FR.

When I set subs to play 50 hz and below, and MBM 50-80... It's not as good as just having two subs go to 80hz. There are two major dips at 50 and 80 that weren't there before. I switched phase, placement, etc. it's just a mess.

I guess I have a $500 paper weight.

I'm tri
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post #559 of 572 Old 06-07-2015, 08:46 PM
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OFFICIAL Hsu MBM-12 thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
If you run left and right speakers through MBM, while MBM set to IN and let's say crossover at 120... Does the MBM stop the speakers from playing under 120hz?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
I'm considering getting another MBM and trying it with each speaker. But I don't like the idea of both MBM and speakers playing under 120hz.

I'm also hesitant to want my mains set to large but I believe I have to, if I want to run MBM with them? I'm worried about what content under 50hz I might lose because it won't go to the true subs if I set mains to large.
High pass filters on subs will send everything ABOVE the crossover to the mains you have plugged into the high level OUT connections, and let the sub play all BELOW the crossover point.

If you have smaller main speakers (woofers < 7" ), then you may want the cross over around 120Hz, and low bass content at around that freq can be echo-located. Audio engineers suggest having two subs to even out room unevenness, and some think that if your subs are inline with left and right channels, your VLF bass will maintain stereo separation.

Are you running a separate sub with this? If so, then yeah you'd set the mains to SMALL and everything below the AVR cross over will go to the sub. But you'd send VLF way below the MBM-12 crossover so that it could handle the LF, i.e. set the AVR cross over at 80Hz or 60Hz. (I was thinking of doing something like this.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
I don't think the MBM-12 will filter anything out when using the high level outputs, but better ask Hsu about that in an email to be 100% sure. It's hard to see how a high pass filter would be used between the MBM and speaker when using the high level inputs and outputs....
Nope. That's what the high level inputs are for, and that cross over IN switch and the cross over frequency setting knob are for.

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post #560 of 572 Old 06-07-2015, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
I can't have the MBM play more than 80hz... It's already starting to localize at 80hz crossovers. I should have just listened to you and got a third sub if anything. I've tried integrating the MBM near field and its wreaks havocs on what WAS a flat FR.

When I set subs to play 50 hz and below, and MBM 50-80... It's not as good as just having two subs go to 80hz. There are two major dips at 50 and 80 that weren't there before. I switched phase, placement, etc. it's just a mess.

I guess I have a $500 paper weight.
Have you tried simply setting the other subs at 80 Hz, and just using the MBM to supplement the mid bass?
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post #561 of 572 Old 06-08-2015, 05:02 AM
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Have you tried simply setting the other subs at 80 Hz, and just using the MBM to supplement the mid bass?
I have it this way now.

When I raise bass to where I like it though... I end up with a crazy looking frequency response. I like low bass where it's about 15db higher than 100hz. So when I raise sub trin enough to achieve this it shows a nearly vertical line at 80hz straight UP 15db. Then flat response 80 down to 16. I can't seem to get a gradual increase. This makes it sound bad.

I'll keep tinkering with it. I swear I'm a sadist for buying it. I had a feeling it was going to be hell integrating it.
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post #562 of 572 Old 06-08-2015, 11:21 AM
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I am not sure its the steepness of the response at the crossover region is the real problem. I think what would happen if it was a gradual slope to very hot bass, the effect of that would be an overall muffled sound. That is the effect I get when I experiment with running the bass hot in equalizers. I preferred the sound of a steep slope. I think you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. You want powerful bass, but running it hot enough to get the bass effect you want is wrecking the overall sound because of the imbalance. You might try getting your system back to a flat response, and then fooling around with an equalizer to see what kind of hot bass you can live with.
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post #563 of 572 Old 06-08-2015, 01:58 PM
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... I'll keep tinkering with it. I swear I'm a sadist for buying it. I had a feeling it was going to be hell integrating it.
Well, the good news is that you're tinkering with lots of potential and capability. Just remember that having the capability is sufficient, you don't have to USE all of it to get yer money's worth.
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I am not sure its the steepness of the response at the crossover region is the real problem. I think what would happen if it was a gradual slope to very hot bass, the effect of that would be an overall muffled sound. That is the effect I get when I experiment with running the bass hot in equalizers. I preferred the sound of a steep slope. I think you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. You want powerful bass, but running it hot enough to get the bass effect you want is wrecking the overall sound because of the imbalance. You might try getting your system back to a flat response, and then fooling around with an equalizer to see what kind of hot bass you can live with.
(exaggerated nodding in agreement)

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I guess I have a $500 paper weight.
the woodgrain model is 599 and the 499 black model is discontinued...did u find a black one somewhere?

the woodgrain is beautiful but i have two black ones and looking for a third...

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post #565 of 572 Old 06-09-2015, 09:20 PM
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BLUE - MBM OFF

YELLOW - MBM ON

After trying every different phase and tinkering endlessly, this is best response I can get.

This is with both true subs and MBM set to out. 80 crossovers, MBM right behind MLP. Which is ideally what I want... Just having MBM as a third sub of sorts, near field.

I ran Audyssey with each true sub to my two independent sub outs on AVR. Then I added this after Audyssey via minidsp.

The higher I raise the MBM volume, the more the valley between 45 and 60hz deepens.

If I could just figure out how to get rid of that 45-60 problem, I think it would be perfect.

I have minidsp I could EQ MBM with. And also set delays with. Any idea how to make that 45-65 region go up instead of down? Does this look like a phase or timing issue?

** and yes I eq'd to the very large house curve. This is what bass makes sound normal to me. Ideally had have a more gradual rise from 100hz to 30hz, but this is best I can come up with.

Last edited by DaveyMac; 06-09-2015 at 09:24 PM.
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post #566 of 572 Old 06-09-2015, 10:33 PM
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Davey, have you tried plugging the MBM port? The output from ports are 180 degrees out of phase from driver output, and that 45-60 hz looks like where the MBM would be tuned at, so perhaps that is why you are getting phase cancellations in that region.
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post #567 of 572 Old 06-10-2015, 08:22 AM
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Davey, have you tried plugging the MBM port? The output from ports are 180 degrees out of phase from driver output, and that 45-60 hz looks like where the MBM would be tuned at, so perhaps that is why you are getting phase cancellations in that region.
I tried it before, but not with latest run. I'll try it.

I'm hooking it up after Audyssey.

The challenge running it with Aidyysey is if I have I mbm and one sub going to one sub output.. audyssey reads the higher MBM volume and then wants to set that sub too low imo.

Putting both subs to one output and MBM to other created a horrific FR.

I could try hooking to both front speakers line outputs.. But I'm thinking you need two for that.

I'll try plugging port. If anyone else has idea on how to get the MBM in phase better, please share. Could distance tweak affect a valley that large?
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post #568 of 572 Old 06-10-2015, 08:56 AM
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Davey I never was satisfied with my mbm's while they were in the LFE chain...I didn't get what I was after until I connected them to the main pre-outs and then later to the speaker level inputs.


in MY room that has worked best...


I should add that nearfield placement didn't work as well in my room...they are up front with mains.

at the zenith of his nadir...

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post #569 of 572 Old 06-10-2015, 10:09 AM
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Davey I never was satisfied with my mbm's while they were in the LFE chain...I didn't get what I was after until I connected them to the main pre-outs and then later to the speaker level inputs.


in MY room that has worked best...


I should add that nearfield placement didn't work as well in my room...they are up front with mains.
When you say "in LFE chain" - I'm assuming you mean hooked up via minidsp into one of my two sub outputs?


But then you say you later hooked to "main pre-outs" - is this different than hooking up to one of the sub outputs?


The only two ways I know of hooking this up is either to a sub output on AVR or by running the left and right speaker wires into it the red and black speakers posts.. and then running speaker wire back to speakers from the red and black bottom speaker posts.


I could try using this with front speakers ran through it. If I did so it would have to go behind my front right speaker. I would have both front speakers crossed at 80 hz but flowing through MBM. Do you think this would be worth trying? Or do I really need to have two MMB's to attempt this? And I'm wondering if that's even advisable since I have pretty decent main speakers: GE Triton 5's.
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post #570 of 572 Old 06-10-2015, 05:41 PM
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When you say "in LFE chain" - I'm assuming you mean hooked up via minidsp into one of my two sub outputs?


But then you say you later hooked to "main pre-outs" - is this different than hooking up to one of the sub outputs?


The only two ways I know of hooking this up is either to a sub output on AVR or by running the left and right speaker wires into it the red and black speakers posts.. and then running speaker wire back to speakers from the red and black bottom speaker posts.


I could try using this with front speakers ran through it. If I did so it would have to go behind my front right speaker. I would have both front speakers crossed at 80 hz but flowing through MBM. Do you think this would be worth trying? Or do I really need to have two MMB's to attempt this? And I'm wondering if that's even advisable since I have pretty decent main speakers: GE Triton 5's.
yes...LFE chain=sub outputs

i used a "y" connector at each L/R pre-out on my preamp, one rca to my amplifier, the other to the low-level rca's on the mbm12's...

i mentioned this only because it worked for me and it's not difficult to try...tho i actually think you are getting close to working it out if you keep the direction you're headed.

i do NOT think you need another mbm at this point tho...

at the zenith of his nadir...
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