2 Earthquake 15" subs or 1 JL Audio F113? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 185 Old 05-12-2007, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If you had a choice of having duel Earthquake MK-15's or one F113, which would you go for?
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post #2 of 185 Old 05-12-2007, 04:19 PM
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That's easy.

One F113.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #3 of 185 Old 05-12-2007, 07:52 PM
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Getech....

You sell them you should know.

JL Audio f113,easy easy choice.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #4 of 185 Old 05-12-2007, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks guys for the feedback....just checking. Thought two 15" drivers vs. one from a F113 could more than compensate. Hmmm..not so much I suppose.
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post #5 of 185 Old 05-13-2007, 01:57 AM
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Is the choice really that easy? I haven't as yet heard the JL sub, but the EQ is quite impressive (and I have mulitple high-output commercial and DIY subs for comparison - in case anyone asks.) The JL would most likely go lower, but I would very surprised if it could beat two EQ's in output. I'm just trying to add some dissent.

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post #6 of 185 Old 05-13-2007, 02:29 AM
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Why do people get so excited about ~4 Litres of displacement for $3000.
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post #7 of 185 Old 05-13-2007, 08:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse S View Post

Why do people get so excited about ~4 Litres of displacement for $3000.

Why do people whine about a product they have no interest in purchasing ?

To answer your question: Find another subwoofer with the capabilities of the Fathom 113 in a cabinet its size for about a $2500 street price.
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post #8 of 185 Old 05-13-2007, 04:20 PM
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Zora you should demo one if possible. I ended up buying one after reading craigsub's review and then demoing one myself.
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post #9 of 185 Old 05-13-2007, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Why do people whine about a product they have no interest in purchasing ?

To answer your question: Find another subwoofer with the capabilities of the Fathom 113 in a cabinet its size for about a $2500 street price.

Zzz. Your diatribe is boring Craig. I checked out of the under-performing/over-priced subwoofer club a long time ago.
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post #10 of 185 Old 05-13-2007, 08:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse S View Post

Zzz. Your diatribe is boring Craig. I checked out of the under-performing/over-priced subwoofer club a long time ago.

You checked out of something. Oh yeah, the world of civility.
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post #11 of 185 Old 05-13-2007, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse S View Post

Why do people get so excited about ~4 Litres of displacement for $3000.

The f113 has over 4L of displacement,get your facts before posting.

It is not only about displacement here,quality all around. Again talk when you have some real experience with the new JL Audio Fathom subs.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #12 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 02:51 AM
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I think a better question is what you are looking for the E-Quake or JL sub/s to do.?

Music, HT, both & %.

Is compact size of importance.?

How much area/ft³ are you trying to fill.?

Not knowing what you like/need, it's diffucult to say what might be a/the better fit.

The JL is just an incrediable sub.

Two 15" E-Quakes will certainly do some spl, but dose lacks the JL's clean sound and extension.

I have to say the JL "hands down" not knowing the answers to the above..
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post #13 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

To answer your question: Find another subwoofer with the capabilities of the Fathom 113 in a cabinet its size for about a $2500 street price.

Probably not for someone who limits him/her-self to passive consumption of off-the-peg stuff. However, most audiophiles should by now realize that spending $2500 for an off-the-peg subwoofer is pretty silly when one can easily take a more active route and either commission a bespoke subwoofer or build a sub oneself. In both cases, performance will be higher, it is guaranteed to fit the room's aesthetic, and cost will be lower. A subwoofer is just plug and chug, with none of the complexities involved in building main speakers. Buy a good driver or complement thereof, fit it in a solid cabinet, add an amp and an SMS-1 or BFD, and outstanding performance is assured.

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post #14 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 07:58 PM
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I think it depends on people's time. For some they'd rather spend the money for something that's built and ready to use. For others, they may have the time to work on DIY. There are merits for both. I say enjoy what works for you.
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post #15 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Probably not for someone who limits him/her-self to passive consumption of off-the-peg stuff. However, most audiophiles should by now realize that spending $2500 for an off-the-peg subwoofer is pretty silly when one can easily take a more active route and either commission a bespoke subwoofer or build a sub oneself. In both cases, performance will be higher, it is guaranteed to fit the room's aesthetic, and cost will be lower. A subwoofer is just plug and chug, with none of the complexities involved in building main speakers. Buy a good driver or complement thereof, fit it in a solid cabinet, add an amp and an SMS-1 or BFD, and outstanding performance is assured.

On these forums there is the commercial section (THIS ONE) and the DIY.Anyone interested in buying a made sub will be enchanted with the Fathom f113.

Even DIY route,try to find as much quality and output in a cabinet size no larger than the f113. Good luck.

There are no drivers made up to the 13,5 size more capable than the f113 driver,the more capable are 15 and 18" monsters that would not even fit in a cabinet the size of the f113(including all electronics).

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #16 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 08:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Probably not for someone who limits him/her-self to passive consumption of off-the-peg stuff. However, most audiophiles should by now realize that spending $2500 for an off-the-peg subwoofer is pretty silly when one can easily take a more active route and either commission a bespoke subwoofer or build a sub oneself. In both cases, performance will be higher, it is guaranteed to fit the room's aesthetic, and cost will be lower. A subwoofer is just plug and chug, with none of the complexities involved in building main speakers. Buy a good driver or complement thereof, fit it in a solid cabinet, add an amp and an SMS-1 or BFD, and outstanding performance is assured.

"However, most audiophiles should by now realize that spending $2500 for an off-the-peg subwoofer is pretty silly "

It is statements like this that make one roll with laughter.

Mr. 21, if nothing else, you never let us down.
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post #17 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

"However, most audiophiles should by now realize that spending $2500 for an off-the-peg subwoofer is pretty silly "

It is statements like this that make one roll with laughter.

Mr. 21, if nothing else, you never let us down.

I guess he forgot a good few audiophiles spend over 50K on a two channel system. $3000 is pocket change in a true high end system.

I have invested over $30000 in subs,and started with $4000 invested in parts for DIY subs...silly. For tight budgets...definite yes.

$3300 times two to supply a reference quality foundation to a high end system is a very down to Earth amount of money.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #18 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

"However, most audiophiles should by now realize that spending $2500 for an off-the-peg subwoofer is pretty silly "

It is statements like this that make one roll with laughter.

Mr. 21, if nothing else, you never let us down.

Sorry, some things are just better in all aspects but one* bespoke rather than off the peg. Subwoofers are one of those things. There's no technology in most commercial cone subwoofers (including the JL's) that isn't readily available on the open market to anyone. Nor are most subwoofers hard to design. (Some, such as tapped horns and stuff like the forthcoming AV123 BMF-1, are probably above the level that most bespoke audio shops or individuals can handle.) In the case of something like the Jellos, just take a big, long throw woofer, add a big honking amp, and some parametric EQ.

And "The Ear," you seem to think that I'm arguing price. That is not the case. As someone who current runs two audio systems at home that would each be well into the five figures were everything bought new, I have an idea of what people can spend. And just as with men's clothing and furniture, only saps spend that kind of money for off-the-peg products instead of doing it properly and going bespoke. Sure, sometimes bespoke costs a little more, but the end result is something just for you in every respect (performance, aesthetics, etc.) rather than a generic solution. Would you spend $3000 for a pair of off-the-shelf Slivano Lattanzis beautifully styled and constructed but built on a generic last, or get something that actually fits your foot because it was built over a last carved based on your own foot from John Lobb Paris's bespoke program (or your cobbler of choice)? Would you buy a $5000 Kiton suit off the peg at Neimans, or would you do it right and spend the same money from a top-flight tailor? Would you settle for an off-the-floor $50k dining room set, or would you sit down with a craftsman and commission your own bespoke set?

If I wanted to match the Jello Fathom exactly in form factor, I'd possibly start with a 13W7. Actually, I wouldn't. I'd probably use four Peerless XLS12's instead and use an even smaller box while having both greater max SPL and less ringing due to the fact that they'd be in a natively low-Q enclosure.) But the whole point of bespoke, in subs as in anything else, is that one isn't limited to what's on the shelf. Want something taller and slimmer, or shorter and squater? Done. Want a finish that matches an heirloom piece of furniture? Done. Want performance that will blow any off-the-peg product out of the weeds for similar money? Done. Off the peg subwoofers certainly have a place in the world, but not really in the homes of somewhat nutty enthusiasts such as the people who post frequently on fora such as AVS.

*The one exception is resale value. It is a fair point that a bespoke or DIY sub won't have much in the way of resale value whereas a well-regarded commercial product will cost less for serial upgraders. So such people are better off just buying a generic box than putting some thought into it. People who care about the music more than they care about having shiny new gear every few months are generally better served by bespoke, though.

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post #19 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 10:52 PM
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DS-21,

I could care less about a "John Blobb Paris en feu,en banlieue" suit,or a "Look at me I flash Signature edition Lon Don". I will never pay $5000 for a suit,you can even put a GW Butch and Osama Bin Aladin logo in golden trim with diamonds ornating it.

I will spend even 10K for a pair of speaker cables...but under a grand on a suit,I have my priorities in life...set properly. Why not sample each sub I can get my mitts on? Life is short time to shake some proverbial pics of the shack walls.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #20 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 11:08 PM
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Why don't you drop the word "bespoke" a few more times?

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #21 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 11:30 PM
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1) I believe the purpose of this thread was to market the JL subs considering the OP IS a JL sub dealer. he personally has experience with many many subs costing $2600 (even multiples of SVS and HSU) and none of those match the JL. so why this question?

2) DS-21,
-everyone knows that DIY beats commercial. not everyone has the time and effort to build DIY though.
-sure you can beat any commercial sub in terms of SPL, but not everyone is after SPL, what about Linearity, THD and overall SQ?
-you can't really compare subs with other stuff like, clothes, dinnerware, tables ... it's all about priorities. take for example watches ... sure you can have a watch made with stop watch accuracy, which even tells you the microseconds ... but I still want the Rolex even though it tells time in mere seconds. (and doesn't glow in the dark)

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post #22 of 185 Old 05-14-2007, 11:35 PM
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Yeah, let's keep the analogies fair, mmmkay? Would you (or could you) tailor your own suit? Could you cobble your own shoes? There's a big difference in my book between DIY and professionally "bespoke".

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post #23 of 185 Old 05-15-2007, 01:42 AM
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I think his point was more that if you have that much money to throw at it, you could commision someone to build you a unit for similar costs and possibly get better results. Personally, I enjoy my 113 and maybe one day I'll jump into DIY if my worklife ever slows down.

I wish I had time like TheEar to work on his multiple TC Sounds projects. I can't wait to see how the LMS-5400 boxes turn out.
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post #24 of 185 Old 05-15-2007, 04:31 AM
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No doubt there are DIY alternatives...

But I am still waiting to see pictures and graphs of a DIY sub that equals or betters an f113 in the same size package, performance, and build quality including finish.
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post #25 of 185 Old 05-15-2007, 05:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Sorry, some things are just better in all aspects but one* bespoke rather than off the peg. Subwoofers are one of those things. There's no technology in most commercial cone subwoofers (including the JL's) that isn't readily available on the open market to anyone. Nor are most subwoofers hard to design. (Some, such as tapped horns and stuff like the forthcoming AV123 BMF-1, are probably above the level that most bespoke audio shops or individuals can handle.) In the case of something like the Jellos, just take a big, long throw woofer, add a big honking amp, and some parametric EQ.

And "The Ear," you seem to think that I'm arguing price. That is not the case. As someone who current runs two audio systems at home that would each be well into the five figures were everything bought new, I have an idea of what people can spend. And just as with men's clothing and furniture, only saps spend that kind of money for off-the-peg products instead of doing it properly and going bespoke. Sure, sometimes bespoke costs a little more, but the end result is something just for you in every respect (performance, aesthetics, etc.) rather than a generic solution. Would you spend $3000 for a pair of off-the-shelf Slivano Lattanzis beautifully styled and constructed but built on a generic last, or get something that actually fits your foot because it was built over a last carved based on your own foot from John Lobb Paris's bespoke program (or your cobbler of choice)? Would you buy a $5000 Kiton suit off the peg at Neimans, or would you do it right and spend the same money from a top-flight tailor? Would you settle for an off-the-floor $50k dining room set, or would you sit down with a craftsman and commission your own bespoke set?

If I wanted to match the Jello Fathom exactly in form factor, I'd possibly start with a 13W7. Actually, I wouldn't. I'd probably use four Peerless XLS12's instead and use an even smaller box while having both greater max SPL and less ringing due to the fact that they'd be in a natively low-Q enclosure.) But the whole point of bespoke, in subs as in anything else, is that one isn't limited to what's on the shelf. Want something taller and slimmer, or shorter and squater? Done. Want a finish that matches an heirloom piece of furniture? Done. Want performance that will blow any off-the-peg product out of the weeds for similar money? Done. Off the peg subwoofers certainly have a place in the world, but not really in the homes of somewhat nutty enthusiasts such as the people who post frequently on fora such as AVS.

*The one exception is resale value. It is a fair point that a bespoke or DIY sub won't have much in the way of resale value whereas a well-regarded commercial product will cost less for serial upgraders. So such people are better off just buying a generic box than putting some thought into it. People who care about the music more than they care about having shiny new gear every few months are generally better served by bespoke, though.

A simple question. One which can be answered in 2 words. How many hours would it take you to build this quad Peerless unit with an heirloom quality enclosure ?

Again, because it goes against your nature to answer simple questions, allow me to give you a template for the answer:

________ _________

Copy and paste those lines, and it will assist you in keeping the answer to the required amount of words.
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post #26 of 185 Old 05-15-2007, 05:33 AM
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DS 21,
Hello, old friend... nice to see you still flying the flag. From my conversations with you over the last decade I know you are a very smart audio guy, but how do you know that you know everything we know and everything we have put into the f113??? Rather presumptuous, wouldn't you say?

I have stated in another thread that every audio enthusiast should do a DIY speaker project at some point. It can be lots of fun and you can certainly get good (or bad) results with a relatively low hard cost (as long as you don't count your time).

I have also asked that we not engage in DIY vs. Commercial debates as these never end well and are, in fact, discouraged by the rules of this forum.
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post #27 of 185 Old 05-15-2007, 07:37 PM
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I am under the impression that subs like the dd series from velodyne offer somewhat more technology than just a long throw woofer in a box, along with the JL offering really nice sound quality.
I like the idea of buying this technology and engineering and service should something go wrong.
I also assume not all diy projects are concluded successfully with flat response and good sound quality?

What the H does the word "bespoke" mean?

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post #28 of 185 Old 05-15-2007, 07:39 PM
 
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I am under the impression that subs like the dd series from velodyne offer somewhat more technology than just a long throw woofer in a box, along with the JL offering really nice sound quality.
I like the idea of buying this technology and engineering and service should something go wrong.
I also assume not all diy projects are concluded successfully with flat response and good sound quality?

What the H does the word "bespoke" mean?


Bespoke

The term "bespoke" comes from England where it originally referred to custom or tailor-made clothing. In recent years, however, the term has been applied to information technology (IT), and refers to custom services or products.
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post #29 of 185 Old 05-15-2007, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Bespoke

The term "bespoke" comes from England where it originally referred to custom or tailor-made clothing. In recent years, however, the term has been applied to information technology (IT), and refers to custom services or products.

I knew this forum would teach me something sometime...Craig you're a jewell...

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #30 of 185 Old 05-15-2007, 08:24 PM
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Bespoke doesn't necessarily equal quality, or a good fit.
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