Official Outlaw Owners thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by weverb View Post

Or our speakers/room is blowin' in the wind!

Hilarious!!!!
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Will-san View Post

Well I just joined the club. I was going to build build my own but the deal on the SMS-1 and the LFM-1 plus seemed pretty good so I pulled the trigger last night.

I was (am) a little worried that a ported sub would be a little sloppy for music but I am hoping that with the Help of the SMS I can get things tied in nicely.

Hello Will-san,

Congrats on your purchase! I am more of a movie guy vs. music but I watch a number of Blu-ray concert titles and it sounds lovely to me. Please check back in with your comments and some pix. I am interested in your thoughts on the SMS-1.

Larry
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Old 08-15-2008, 03:52 PM
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I will post pix and thoughts as soon as I receive my sub and get it tied in.

I have been reading this thread (I am almost done) and there is some good stuff... I am down right giddy.

"I was just reading here on my internet that Tofu is made from little baby seals". - Strong Bad
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Old 08-15-2008, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

After I had EQ'ed my room, I lamented to my Wife that I needed at least (2) MBMs or (2) LFM-1EXs to add to the room. Along came the free shipping deal at the end of July and SHE ordered the (2) EXs for my birthday!

The four subs are a time consuming chore to find the ideal placement and EQ properly. It took me a solid weekend to finish the job. This room really sounds good and I believe you will appreciate another MBM and EX in your room as well.

Sorry weverb, I continue to be a bad influence.

Larry

You sorry son of a.......! Lucky, lucky man! Here I thought you just had the 2 pluses. You have to post pix!

Well, I need your help some more. I think I have been using the wrong correction values for the RS 4050 meter. I finally opened and used the values in the .cal file on the Shack's website (versus the link below). In addition, I also turned up the EX. Take a look at the new graph. I have the EX xo set down to 30Hz and I turned down the MBM more until the 80 and 100 Hz values flattened out. I am still getting a large boost from 40-80Hz. What am I missing?

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...6&openflup&1&4

I am thinking of taking your last suggestion and switching back to MO and see what happens. At this point, I am getting frustrated and worried that I am just making a mess of things. When measuring the different frequencies, at 16 and 20Hz, the EX was making a thumping sound. I only have it set to about 4.5 on the volume and the receiver was at -20dB. I think it is just resonating against the desk that it is under. When I push on it, the thumping starts to go away. Ideas?
LL

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Old 08-15-2008, 04:39 PM
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^^^

My wife...sorry, my DARLING Wife is here asking me to take her to dinner! I will have some thoughts for you later tonight, sorry!

Larry
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Old 08-15-2008, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

You sorry son of a.......! Lucky, lucky man! Here I thought you just had the 2 pluses. You have to post pix!

I know...I am very lucky and I can see why you love your EX. I will take some pix on Sunday.


Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

I finally opened and used the values in the .cal file on the Shack's website (versus the link below). In addition, I also turned up the EX. Take a look at the new graph. I have the EX xo set down to 30Hz and I turned down the MBM more until the 80 and 100 Hz values flattened out. I am still getting a large boost from 40-80Hz. What am I missing?

weverb, I agree that HT Shack would be a better choice for the cal file. With an EQ, you could easily tame this peak to your liking. I am not sure about the xovers settings with your set-up and would defer to Pete Hsu for some advice.


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Originally Posted by weverb View Post

I am thinking of taking your last suggestion and switching back to MO and see what happens.

Since I have added the EXs, I have switched to MO and really enjoy it.


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Originally Posted by weverb View Post

the EX was making a thumping sound. I only have it set to about 4.5 on the volume and the receiver was at -20dB. I think it is just resonating against the desk that it is under. When I push on it, the thumping starts to go away. Ideas?

Yes, I agree about the desk. When I play a 20Hz test tone, one of my walls vibrates like mad. Also, the sub trim level of -20dB seems very, very low to me. I have mine set for -3dB. The 4.5 on the volume control of the sub is where I have both of my EXs set at.

Ok, here are some suggestions and where I would begin:

Set the receiver's sub trim level to -5dB.

I would use the receiver's test tones to calibrate the EX (w/ MBM off) to 78dB - 80dB. Repeat with the MBM (w/ EX off) and set it at 75 dB. Adjust with the sub & MBM volume control.

Turn off any Auto EQ from your receiver.

Run the Hsu test tones in stereo mode on your receiver.

Measure just your sub + MBM output. Leave your front speakers off.

weverb, your graph is not bad and just needs a bit of EQ to tame the peaks. After all, it is the mid-base that you really like.

I hope this helps and keep at it.

Larry
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Yes, I agree about the desk. When I play at 20Hz test tone, one of my walls vibrates like mad. Also, the sub trim level of -20dB seems very, very low to me. I have mine set for -3dB. The 4.5 on the volume control of the sub is where I have both of my EXs set at.

Ok, here are some suggestions and where I would begin:

Set the receiver's sub trim level to -5dB.

I would use the receiver's test tones to calibrate the EX (w/ MBM off) to 78dB - 80dB. Repeat with the MBM (w/ EX off) and set it at 75 dB. Adjust with the sub & MBM volume control.

Turn off any Auto EQ from your receiver.

Run the Hsu test tones in stereo mode on your receiver.

Measure just your sub + MBM output. Leave your front speakers off.

weverb, your graph is not bad and just needs a bit of EQ to tame the peaks. After all, it is the mid-base that you really like.

I hope this helps and keep at it.

Larry

Let me clarify. The -20dB is the volume setting and not the sub level setting. The sub level setting is at 0dB. My receiver (NAD T754) has no AutoEQ.

What kind of reading do you get for 16Hz since you are in MO?

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Old 08-15-2008, 09:49 PM
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Larry,

Dumb question.... do you add or subtract the values in the .cal file from the RS meter readings. I see in the file it has negative numbers, but in the spreadsheet they provide it is adding them. WTF?

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Old 08-15-2008, 10:39 PM
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weverb:

I think the negative numbers indicate the meter is down by that amount.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe741 View Post

weverb:

I think the negative numbers indicate the meter is down by that amount.

Ok, so that means to add them. Well, that changes the whole lower frequency portion of the graph! Thanks you.

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Old 08-16-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

Let me clarify. The -20dB is the volume setting and not the sub level setting. The sub level setting is at 0dB. My receiver (NAD T754) has no AutoEQ.

What kind of reading do you get for 16Hz since you are in MO?

Ok, that makes more sense...I have my MV at -20dB (Onkyo 805) when I play the Rives Audio Test CD 2. This gives me a reading of 75dB on the RS meter when playing the 1000Hz test tone.

On MO with the (2) LFM-1+ subs I have 72dB @ 16Hz right behind the couch and with various corner loading placements, I have 80-88dB @ 16Hz. Now adding in the (2) EX subs, I have between 86 - 94dB @ 16Hz.

Larry
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Old 08-16-2008, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

Ok, so that means to add them. Well, that changes the whole lower frequency portion of the graph! Thanks you.

Hi weverb, I made the same mistake when I first started. I should have remembered to mention that to you!

So, how does the lower end look now?

Larry
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Hi weverb, I made the same mistake when I first started. I should have remembered to mention that to you!

So, how does the lower end look now?

Larry

Last night I quickly lowered it back down to my original setting of 3.5 on the volume knob. I still have my original numbers written down, but I want to remeasure and possibly bump it up a little to raise that dip at 25Hz up a tad.

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Old 08-16-2008, 11:30 AM
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Remeasured. I will wait until next week to try messing with MO versus ME. Any other suggestions?
LL

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Old 08-16-2008, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

Remeasured. I will wait until next week to try messing with MO versus ME. Any other suggestions?

Hi weverb, the small dip around the 22 - 36Hz region would benefit from a slight change of placement on the EX...possibly just rotating the EX 90 degrees if the space beneath the desk allows for it or try rotating 180 degrees....if that passes the WAF test.

If you are going the EQ route, then a small 2-3 dB boost in that region should do the trick. In the meantime, I would try and calibrate the EX to run hot at a minimum of 78dB to a max of 82dB. I would leave the MBM alone with a 75dB calibration. Also, play with MO & ME switch and the phase switch at these new settings.

Just for fun you could trade places with the EX & MBM and see what happens to your graph. That should raise the low end at the LP and you might not lose much of the peak from the MBM's new home under the desk.

It is all good, weverb...see how it sounds this week and we will go from there.

Have a Great Weekend!

Larry
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

Pix of my new LFM-1 EX and HSU MBM-12:




Hi weverb,

I hope you don't mind but I thought a re-post of your pix would help everyone remember what your room looks like...

Larry
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Old 08-16-2008, 03:19 PM
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No problem on the pix. Thanks for doing it.

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Old 08-16-2008, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Hi weverb, the small dip around the 22 - 36Hz region would benefit from a slight change of placement on the EX...possibly just rotating the EX 90 degrees if the space beneath the desk allows for it or try rotating 180 degrees....if that passes the WAF test.

If you are going the EQ route, then a small 2-3 dB boost in that region should do the trick. In the meantime, I would try and calibrate the EX to run hot at a minimum of 78dB to a max of 82dB. I would leave the MBM alone with a 75dB calibration. Also, play with MO & ME switch and the phase switch at these new settings.

Just for fun you could trade places with the EX & MBM and see what happens to your graph. That should raise the low end at the LP and you might not lose much of the peak from the MBM's new home under the desk.

I don't think I can possibly rotate the EX. If I do 180, then the amp would be facing out along with the cords/cables.

I have not tried the receiver's test tone in awhile to see what the EX is running. I will give it a check. I agree about the MBM settings. They seem perfect when you look at the 80 and 100Hz readings. Any time I start messing with the MBM, they start changing.

Right now, the set-up has great bass imaging (if that is possible). There is no localization of any of the subs when playing music. The bass actually seems to be coming from behind the tv (center stage) when listening to music. I have been thinking along the same lines as you mentioned about switching the MBM and EX. It does sound tempting.

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Old 08-16-2008, 03:47 PM
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^^^

That is why I had to find the pix of your room...I couldn't remember how tight the space was under the desk. No rotating the EX!

Your ears are the best judge, weverb. If it sounds good, it's good! I would like to know how the graph changes with the switching of the MBM & EX and how that change sounds to your ears.

Larry
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Old 08-16-2008, 04:23 PM
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Long term, I was thinking of having one MBM under the desk and the other on the opposite side of the front speaker. One of the EX's would be in the corner where the MBM is now, and the second would be on the opposite side of the couch.

I did see some interesting results by bori where he doubled up his 3.3's in one corner and got great results. It makes me wonder how two EX's would sound in the corner by the round table (next to couch).

Any how, right now I have to wait for during the week to move things when there are no kids or WAF. I was also looking at maybe running REW from my desktop with some 50' rca's to the listening position. That may reach.

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Old 08-16-2008, 04:24 PM
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I forgot to mention, sitting on top of that desk is the 85lb. Sherbourn amp! The desk is not easy to move.

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Old 08-16-2008, 05:35 PM
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Anyone have a spare $549? Outlaw has an EX in b-stock.

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Old 08-16-2008, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

I was also looking at maybe running REW from my desktop with some 50' rca's to the listening position. That may reach.

$7.74 @ monoprice.com

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

When you get you next EX & MBM, you will need REW for sure.

weverb, you might as well get started learning how to use the software!

Larry
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:17 PM
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I forgot to mention, sitting on top of that desk is the 85lb. Sherbourn amp! The desk is not easy to move.

I was wondering where you put that beast.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:15 PM
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All - I have to confess that I had been somewhat underwhelmed by the improvement that the EX gave me over the BIC H-100 in my 4,200 ft^3 room. It was apparent that the EX was louder and I was able to hear bass notes more clearly, but unless I turned up my system to a level that was higher than I typically listen to it, in many cases there was little noticeable improvement. Tried moving the sub along the front and side walls to no avail.

Well, I'm happy to say that three changes have made a world of difference - 1) changing to maximum output mode, 2) changing the crossover on the receiver from 60Hz to 80Hz, and 3) getting an Auralex Gramma.

Even though my HT is in a basement with berber carpet over concrete, the bass is so much cleaner and pronounced with the Gramma - possibly due to the extra clearance. Also, there is now far less rattling of the room, not to mention, I now get fuller bass at lower volumes.

At last, I have the improvement I was looking for and wanted to share in case anyone else out there was having similar issues. I think that there was a poster a few weeks ago (nosferatu maybe?) who couldn't get much out of his EX either. I would strongly recommend trying the Gramma - it's only $50 shipped and IMO worth a shot.

I think I'll enjoy this major improvement for a while before another bout of optimizing sub placement, treating my room, and adding EQ.
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:11 AM
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ajstan99,

Glad to hear things have improved to your liking. As you can tell, I have had mine for awhile and I am still learning how to make it work better. As Larry and I swap back and forth, it is a never ending process of playing and enjoying.

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Old 08-17-2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

$7.74 @ monoprice.com

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

When you get you next EX & MBM, you will need REW for sure.

weverb, you might as well get started learning how to use the software!

Larry

That's what I was looking at. The other thing is, I cannot tell what is in versus out on the back of the sound card. It just has some different colors and similar symbols.

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Old 08-18-2008, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

That's what I was looking at. The other thing is, I cannot tell what is in versus out on the back of the sound card. It just has some different colors and similar symbols.

Hey weverb,

On my sound card, blue is IN & green is OUT....

I am just finishing up with two days of tweaks. I will post pix & REW graph of the four subs tomorrow.

Larry
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Hey weverb,

On my sound card, blue is IN & green is OUT....

I am just finishing up with two days of tweaks. I will post pix & REW graph of the four subs tomorrow.

Larry

Lucky man!

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Old 08-19-2008, 08:16 AM
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I feel like a complete nooby/idiot. Here is a pic of the back of my sound card. Will this work for REW? It says it is a SigmaTel High Def. Audio Codec card.
LL

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