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post #991 of 7138 Old 09-26-2008, 09:18 AM
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REW = Room Eq Wizard

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ease-read.html

It will become your next challenge/friend!

Analog: Pioneer SX-950, CT-F9191, AD797MCPS, PL-707, RH-65, RG-1, SR-202, Monitor 10/HE-500 hp's
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post #992 of 7138 Old 09-26-2008, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PannyMann View Post

I have an Onkyo sr705. In speaker settings, it allows for setting each speakers crossover point. For my mains and surrounds, I can go down to 40hz at which point I assume frequencies lower than that are attenuated.
I can also set the crossover for the LFE channel. The lowest it allows is 80hz and I assume that since it's the LFE channel then frequencies above that setting are attenuated. Have the low pass filter on the sub set to bypass.

Are my assumptions correct or am I all hosed up ?

I have an Onkyo SR606 with similar settings. There's no need to attenuate the LFE channel unless you're getting noise/hum.

According to Dolby, LFE is 120Hz and below:

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/E...-3)/38_LFE.pdf

If you set the low-pass frequency below 120Hz, you're potentially (and unnecessarily) filtering out some of the top-end LFE channel sound.

Hey, BTW, welcome to the thread!


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post #993 of 7138 Old 09-26-2008, 12:23 PM
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First, I'm sorry for the length of this post.

Ok, for reference, here is what I have:

Polk Speakers all around:

Fronts are RtiA3 (Bookshelf). FR is 50 – 26Khz (-3dB)
Center is CSiA6. FR is 55 – 26Khz (-3dB)
Surrounds are FxiA6. (Dipole Setting) FR is 55 – 26Khz (-3dB)
Back Surrounds are RtiA1. FR is 60 – 26Khz (-3dB)

(2) Outlaw Audio LFM-1 PLUS Subwoofers:

12” driver
Dual 3” Ports
350 WRMS (1300W Peak) BASH Amp
25Hz – 180 Hz +/- 2 dB w/o plug.
18Hz – 180Hz +/- 2dB with one port plugged
SPL = 115dB
Dimensions (H x W x D): 20.0” x 15.0” x 22.0”)
Weight: 58lbs
Each sub set to Max Extension
Each sub’s volume control is at 4
Phase is set to “180”

(2) Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX Subwoofers:

12” driver
Dual 3” Ports
350 WRMS (1300W Peak) BASH Amp
22Hz – 180 Hz +/- 2 dB w/o plug.
16Hz – 180Hz +/- 2dB with one port plugged
SPL = 118dB
Dimensions (H x W x D): 21.50” x 17.0” x 24.0”)
Weight: 80 lbs
Each sub set to Max Extension
Each sub’s volume control is at 4
Phase is set to “0”

My Dedicated Theater Room (around 3000 cu ft):

The room is 20’ x 15’ with a cathedral or sloped ceiling starting at a height of 9’ (The Left Wall) that slopes to a height of 11’ (The Right Wall). The ceiling is exposed with (6) 4” x 10” solid oak beams supporting a tongue & groove hardwood roof. Standard drywall walls and a poured concrete floor with ½” thick high density carpet pad & ½” thick pile wall to wall carpet. There are (2) two person sofas located 4’ from the back wall. The entrance is a solid wood door (36” wide) located in the back left corner of the room.

Here is some background on me:

My first HT was in 1990 with JBL speakers and no sub!
Added a Mission 50 watt sub a couple of years later.
Also have a Polk Audio PSW10 that is used for a dedicated music
set-up for my wife.

My parents gave my wife and me a Bose AM16 system for our wedding
and I'm sure I don't need to go into how bad this system was. They had
the best of intentions and the Bose system lead me to AVS for answers.
The best thing (only thing) about Bose is Re-sale value.

The first LFM-1 Plus arrived on 4-7-08 and it immediately blew me out of the water given my history of subs. After about 30 days, I realize that I needed some more output for my room size.

The second LFM-1 Plus arrived on 5-23-08 and this combo package was
a hugh step up over just one sub. Another big impact just like before.
Since I didn't order the LFM-1 Plus Special, I paid a little more in shipping.
Total for two was $1,030.20.

My Wife surprised me to no end on my Birthday when she ordered the LFM-1 EX Special with free shipping on 7-20-08. Total was $1,098.00.
(Side Note: This is the best deal going from Outlaw and it appears that Outlaw offers it a couple times each year and they have there "own" credit card with 12 months same as cash)

Both of these subs are great for the price paid. In hindsight, I would have
started with the EX as it is worth the extra $100 + additional shipping charges vs. the LFM-1 Plus. I am sure that a pair of EXs would have sufficed for a longer period than a pair of LFM-1 Pluses.

The benefits of the LFM-1 Plus Subwoofer:

Smaller foot print and more placement options.
Can easily pass as an end table.
Higher WAF.
Easier to move around the room.
Very, very good bang for the buck.

The limits of the LFM-1 Plus subwoofer (in my room):

Playing movies with content below 20 Hz can be a problem.
(Very noticeable with a single sub.)

On paper the EX looks very close spec wise to the LFM-1 Plus. In reality, the EX, physically, looks huge compared to the Plus. If you looked at both models side by side, the EX is worth the extra $100 bucks + additional shipping charges. IMHO, the sound from the EX is better suited to my size room.

In a comparable sized theater room, here is what I would recommend in order of price/budget:

1) One LFM-1 EX subwoofer.
2) Two LFM-1 Plus subwoofers.
3) Two LFM-1 EX subwoofers.
4) Two of each model subwoofers.
5) Four LFM-1 EX subwoofers.

Bottom line: I love all four of these subs and I am in tweaker heaven!

If your room requires only one sub from Outlaw Audio, that sub should be the LFM-1 EX. It is the best bang for the buck from Outlaw Audio!

Larry
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post #994 of 7138 Old 09-26-2008, 12:29 PM
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Great post Larry. I can't believe your WIFE bought you the two EX's...especially after you already had two Pluses! You got yourself a good one there, Larry . I keep forgetting you have four subs. Makes me a little jealous considering I have none right now . By the way, pictures of this setup would be more than welcome .
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post #995 of 7138 Old 09-26-2008, 12:55 PM
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Here are some pictures of Larry's set-up.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post14480491

Larry,

This post will probably be great info for those on the fence between the Plus and EX. I am sure we will be referencing many people back to it. Thanks for taking the time to write it up. It might be worth taking a couple pix of the Plus sitting next to an EX so others can visually see the difference.

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post #996 of 7138 Old 09-26-2008, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

REW = Room Eq Wizard

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ease-read.html

It will become your next challenge/friend!

Oh oh, this looks like some fun. Time to study up.

I think, therefore I am single.
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post #997 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Great post Larry. I can't believe your WIFE bought you the two EX's...especially after you already had two Pluses! You got yourself a good one there, Larry . I keep forgetting you have four subs. Makes me a little jealous considering I have none right now . By the way, pictures of this setup would be more than welcome .

Yep, she is a keeper.

BTW, if I lived closer to you, I would loan you a pair of subs until your Castle arrives. No man should be sub-less.

Larry
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post #998 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

It might be worth taking a couple pix of the Plus sitting next to an EX so others can visually see the difference.

Good idea, weverb!

I will get some pix later today...

Larry
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post #999 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

REW = Room Eq Wizard

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ease-read.html

It will become your next challenge/friend!

How long did it take you to get set up, the first time, once you had all of the piece parts purchased/gathered ?

I think, therefore I am single.
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post #1000 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 08:56 AM
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Hi PannyMann,

I think about 30 minutes or so the first time. Now, it takes me under 5 minutes to my first graph.
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post #1001 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 09:24 AM
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Ok weverb, here are your pix... (as well as lalakersfan34)

Also, just moving these two subs out to my deck reminded me how substantial the EX is vs. the Plus.

Larry
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #1002 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Ok weverb, here are your pix...

Also, just moving these two subs out to my deck reminded me how substantial the EX is vs. the Plus.

Larry

Wow! You really can see the difference. The website is a little misleading. Those glass tops look so good. I will still keep the paper on mine though. You can't see the top any way.

Thanks for all the work Larry!

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post #1003 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajstan99 View Post

I have an Onkyo SR606 with similar settings. There's no need to attenuate the LFE channel unless you're getting noise/hum.

According to Dolby, LFE is 120Hz and below:

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/E...-3)/38_LFE.pdf

If you set the low-pass frequency below 120Hz, you're potentially (and unnecessarily) filtering out some of the top-end LFE channel sound.

Hey, BTW, welcome to the thread!

I set it at 120hz. Still sounds good but not sure its better. Have to listen more. Thanks for the tip !!

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post #1004 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 11:41 AM
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I would like to give my impressions on Maximum Output (MO) vs. Maximum Extension (ME) modes on the LFM Subs:

AFAIK, maximum output mode (Max Output on the Port Switch) will provide the greatest level of overall bass in relation to SPL. Maximum extension mode (Bass Extension on the Port Switch) will provide the deepest bass (LFE.1 channel) levels. So, when you "tune" your LFM, you must accept a "sacrifice" of lower overall SPL level (Bass Extension Mode) or you "sacrifice" deep bass frequencies (Max Output Mode). IMHO, MO mode is great for music & ME mode is awesome for high impact (LFE.1 channel) movies. YMMV

If you own one LFM, you must decide what works best in your room and with your choice of source material. You can change modes fairly quickly
by inserting the port plug for ME mode or removing the plug for MO mode and flipping the Port Switch. I think this will be inevitable with only one
LFM and multiple sources of material.If you own two or more LFM subs, you gain SPL regardless and if movies are your thing, ME is starting to look like the "set it and forget it" setting.

Before attempting any of the demos below, please calibrate your set-up with a RS meter to 75dB to 82dB depending how "hot" you like your sub.
Room EQ Wizard is a very handy software to help you place the sub(s) and generate PEQ filters to tame any peaks that are lurking in your room.
A Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro (BFD) is a cost effective way to tame frequencies below your crossover setting.

These demo scenes, in my set-up, show how good ME can be. This is by far the most visceral demo I have: (currently)

"CLOVERFIELD" Blu-ray version with DD TruHD 5.1

Earthquake? Chapter 4 @ time stamp 0:18:22

Statue of Liberty. Chapter 5 @ time stamp 0:19:53 to 0:22:35

Marines. Chapter 8 @ time stamp 0:35:02 to 0:36:25

Helicopter. Chapter 14 @ time stamp 1:03:45 to 1:06:56

Under ME mode these four scenes are insane. My master volume on the AVR is set for -15dB. There is so much more sonic impact with ME vs. MO mode.

Next up is an old favorite and was #1 until the release of Cloverfield:

"MASTER AND COMMANDER" DVD version with DTS 5.1

Start with the entire chapter #3 to get the feeling of being on a ship. When the officer yells, "Beat to Quarters", the subs really kick in and it
feels/sounds like the crew is running across the ceiling of our room. This chapter is "subtle" bass before the cannons kick in.

Finish with the entire chapter #4 and be prepared for some sonic action as the English & French duke it out on the high seas!

For a complete list of Movies with Bass, see DrPainMD's thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493

Larry
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post #1005 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 12:15 PM
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Once again Larry, great stuff!

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post #1006 of 7138 Old 09-27-2008, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Ok weverb, here are your pix... (as well as lalakersfan34)

Also, just moving these two subs out to my deck reminded me how substantial the EX is vs. the Plus.

Larry

Beautiful pics, Larry. The glass top with the tree reflections looks superb . And I agree that the EX is quite a bit larger than the Plus. Often times the difference in even an inch or two each way makes a very big difference to the look of two subs.
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post #1007 of 7138 Old 09-28-2008, 08:48 AM
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2 things Larry.

1. Thanks for those pics--very enlightening. My wife might have preferred the Plus based on the pics, but it just confirms my choice to go for the bigger/badder EX. It is large, but in our family room in the corner, the EX blends in pretty nicely.

2. I am not one who likes to keep changing things, so I basically settled on MO and left it. Now I may need to switch to ME during movies, especially the bassy ones. I convinced myself I wasn't missing much in movies using MO, but you may have nixed that. Thanks...

Seriously though, good posts.


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post #1008 of 7138 Old 09-29-2008, 06:34 AM
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^^
Thanks for the kind words, jeffrey r.

Please check back with your impressions of ME mode with the EX. When I had just the LFM-1+ subs, I stayed on MO all the time. Now, with so much bass energy in the room, ME mode is amazing.

Also, music might be a bit bass heavy right now under ME but it sounds go to me and my wife. I'll set up another preset in the BFD and lower the peaks to 75 - 78dB and see how it sounds.

Larry
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post #1009 of 7138 Old 09-29-2008, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey r View Post

2. I am not one who likes to keep changing things, so I basically settled on MO and left it. Now I may need to switch to ME during movies, especially the bassy ones. I convinced myself I wasn't missing much in movies using MO, but you may have nixed that. Thanks...

Jeff,

You may want to set-up REW and see the differences in the two settings. I bet you could add a BFD and have two presets. One for MO and one for ME. That way you get the best response for either option.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Hi PannyMann,

I think about 30 minutes or so the first time. Now, it takes me under 5 minutes to my first graph.

did you hook up directly to sub or did you run thru receiver when setting up?
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post #1011 of 7138 Old 09-29-2008, 06:06 PM
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^^
Hi therockscott,

I hooked the REW software up to the CD input on my AVR. You need to access the bass management settings on your receiver.

Larry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

REW = Room Eq Wizard

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ease-read.html

It will become your next challenge/friend!

Been reading the forum threads about sub eq and the materials about the REW and associated equipment requirements. In the thread "Best Eq under $400" there is a great buzz about an auto eq box made in Finland that auto eqs the peaks and valleys and also eqs long decay times.

I ordered one today. If it doesn't make as big a difference as some folks are reporting, I'm sure I'll have no problems selling it as that thread has generated a lot of enthusiasm as the reports of sq improvements continue to come in.

I think, therefore I am single.
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^^

Hey PannyMann,

Yes, The Anti-Mode 8033 is a cool device for leveling peaks. I'm not sure about the valleys. I think sub placement is your best bet. BTW, here is a discussion on The Shack from the creator of REW:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...de-8033-a.html

Good luck with this new toy and stop back with your comments and impressions.

Larry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PannyMann View Post

Been reading the forum threads about sub eq and the materials about the REW and associated equipment requirements. In the thread "Best Eq under $400" there is a great buzz about an auto eq box made in Finland that auto eqs the peaks and valleys and also eqs long decay times.

I ordered one today. If it doesn't make as big a difference as some folks are reporting, I'm sure I'll have no problems selling it as that thread has generated a lot of enthusiasm as the reports of sq improvements continue to come in.

Keep in mind you have no control with that unit. I know it has a couple of boost features for 2 different sections, but I don;t think you can control how much. One thing you will learn when reading about REW and bass eq'ing, a lot of people have to develop a "house curve" or a specific boost of the bass so that it "sounds" the same level as the higher frequencies. Don't get me wrong, the Anti-Mode is great and i almost went that direction, but you have more control over your system and its sound with a BFD type unit. Oh yea, it is cheaper too.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

but you have more control over your system and its sound with a BFD type unit. Oh yea, it is cheaper too.

Agreed.
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post #1016 of 7138 Old 09-29-2008, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

^^
Hi therockscott,

I hooked the REW software up to the CD input on my AVR. You need to access the bass management settings on your receiver.

Larry

I'm fairly new to the bass management game. My first thought was to order the SMS-1 but saw alot of good things about the BFD. Picked up one from local guitar center for $99. Purchased the LFM-EX 1, KEF iQ7 fronts, iQ6 center and 4 iQ1 surrounds. Running on a Pio 92TXH. When hooking up conventional thru helps files in REW, gettnig a horrific hum (ground loop). I have a sound card that has a digital output, when using config with no loopback. How are you connecting everything? Thanks in advance.
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I'm fairly new to the bass management game. My first thought was to order the SMS-1 but saw alot of good things about the BFD. Picked up one from local guitar center for $99. Purchased the LFM-EX 1, KEF iQ7 fronts, iQ6 center and 4 iQ1 surrounds. Running on a Pio 92TXH. When hooking up conventional thru helps files in REW, gettnig a horrific hum (ground loop). I have a sound card that has a digital output, when using config with no loopback. How are you connecting everything? Thanks in advance.

Try a cheater plug on the BFD first. That may clear things up.

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post #1018 of 7138 Old 09-29-2008, 06:32 PM
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^^

I am connecting everything exactly like the REW help file shows. I also have a "cheater plug" on the BFD to eliminate the dreaded hum. My sound card is not the best and it too can create a hum if the output cable is not secure in the sound card.

I hope this helps!

Larry
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post #1019 of 7138 Old 09-29-2008, 06:33 PM
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weverb, you are so fast!!!!!!!!
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post #1020 of 7138 Old 09-29-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

I know it has a couple of boost features for 2 different sections, but I don;t think you can control how much.

Hey weverb,

Their "boost feature" is sort of a house curve, right? I mean, the Anti-Mode 8033 is not capable of boosting a small dip like the BFD will, will it?

Larry
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