Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 183 - AVS Forum
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post #5461 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 02:29 PM
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I'm calibrated dual MBM & 3.3's (MO) at 72-73 db and all other speakers at 75. Anti mode on with 15-25 lift on, reciever 80 hz crossover with volume at -10, seat is 10 feet from mains. Room is over 6000 cu feet (unsealed). "C" weighing "slow", Skidoosh hit 105 db, WOTW pod on hill at ferry, 108 db.

Don't need any other subs, Bill

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post #5462 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John H View Post

I turned off Audyssey and removed the 8033B. I calibrated each subwoofer to output 75dB at the listening position. Main channel and tactile transducer amplifiers were turned off.

I loaded Kung Fu Panda Skidoosh in an A/B repeat loop. I brought the level up in my processor to 0 reference level.

First I tested all 4 subwoofers independently. Neither showed any signs of distress by itself at -0- in the processor. None!

I took measurements at the LP.

I measured the Dragon on the right side on the room first, the Dragon on the Left, then the Dragon pair.

Then the DD-18 on the right, the DD-18 on the left, then the DD-18 pair.
Then all four together last.

RS Dragon - 97 dB
LS Dragon - 97 dB
Dragon pair - 103 dB

RS DD-18 - 96 dB
LS DD-18 - 96 dB
DD-18 pair - 102 dB

Quads - 108 dB

Should I be seeing more than 96-97 dB output from one subwoofer on the Skidoosh in a sealed 2538 cf room?

This was just rough testing with no equalization. It would have took quite
allot longer to setup each subwoofer with Audyssey by itself, then pairs, etc...

notoriousmatty,

Do you have Kung Fu Panda or WOTW for testing?

I am going to test WOTW next.

John

Quads at 108 db with the HSU sound quality is interesting. If it is doing that for you, I wonder what I would get vs what I get now.

Maybe I do need a Quad, Bill

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post #5463 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

^^^
John,
For reference I am getting about 105db "C" weighting "fast" uncorrected from a single Hsu VTF-3 MK3 (one port plugged) from 12 feet away with that scene. My room is 2300 cu feet open to a Kitchen of about the same size.
Also this is with my MV @ about -8db. I am afraid to turn it up any more because I think the sub is at its limits and compression is taking over.
I will try this out again tomorrow as will I with some other scenes.
Additionally, this is with just the sub playing and my 8033 on.

Gov,

MV @ -8.

Is your subwoofer calibrated to 75 dB from the LP @ -0- on the MV?

If so you are getting that type of output from your subwoofer at 68 db in an open room?

What seems to be my problem?

John


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post #5464 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John H View Post

Gov,

MV @ -8.

Is your subwoofer calibrated to 75 dB from the LP @ -0- on the MV?

If so you are getting that type of output from your subwoofer at 68 db in an open room?

What seems to be my problem?

John

John,

I am MCACC calibrated which is 75db @ 0db master volume. Also, I run my subwoofer EQ flat with no boosting.
Your numbers do seem a bit low. I am not sure whats going on, but so far your the second Dragon owner questioning their numbers.

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post #5465 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 02:39 PM
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Yeah Bill, you need a quad with those numbers

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post #5466 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Yeah Bill, you need a quad with those numbers

I thought I did!

Bill

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post #5467 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 03:08 PM
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Maybe it's time to move the Conquests back in!

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post #5468 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 03:13 PM
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I am starting to wonder how the Phoenix is going to perform in my room compared to my HSU 3.3 I wonder if it will only be marginal.
Hopefully, someone with a Phoenix will chime in soon....Bueller

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post #5469 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

I am starting to wonder how the Phoenix is going to perform in my room compared to my HSU 3.3 I wonder if it will only be marginal.
Hopefully, someone with a Phoenix will chime in soon....Bueller

OH GOD, HERE WE GO AGAIN! Just wait till you get it and see, sheez.
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post #5470 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

I am starting to wonder how the Phoenix is going to perform in my room compared to my HSU 3.3 I wonder if it will only be marginal.
Hopefully, someone with a Phoenix will chime in soon....Bueller

Repeat after me:

"I want to keep my man card..."
"I want to keep my man card..."
"I want to keep my man card..."







That Ron Temple fellow wasn't kidding, you know . I'm sure you'll love the Phoenix. Don't worry about it. If for some reason you like the 3.3 better, just take the Phoenix back to Epik and get all of your money back. For now, don't even think about it!
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post #5471 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Repeat after me:

"I want to keep my man card..."
"I want to keep my man card..."
"I want to keep my man card..."







That Ron Temple fellow wasn't kidding, you know . I'm sure you'll love the Phoenix. Don't worry about it. If for some reason you like the 3.3 better, just take the Phoenix back to Epik and get all of your money back. For now, don't even think about it!

With all this sub buying and trying it seems that anybody only gets 1 or 2 more db in their room and that is it. Now, lets discuss SQ!

Bill

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post #5472 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 04:43 PM
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Hey. Where is the Dynasty owners? And the REW and detailed feedback they promised . This does not look good for the Dragon. Two owners that we know of having to question their system calibration from the start. Are we expecting too much from the sealed subs?

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

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post #5473 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 05:35 PM
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Easy guys I fully plan on getting the Phoenix and trying it out. After all, I am a MAN!!
Not to mention, Epik is only 5 minutes away and has a 30-day full refund policy.

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post #5474 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

With all this sub buying and trying it seems that anybody only gets 1 or 2 more db in their room and that is it. Now, lets discuss SQ!

Bill

Oh come on, Bill...where's the fun in that?
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post #5475 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Oh come on, Bill...where's the fun in that?

Right! So I guess I'll go and watch the last part of U-571 in DTS Master with THX Cinema 2 steering the audio (depth charges) and see if my neighbors enjoy it too (I live in them middle of 5 acres).

Bill

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post #5476 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Right! So I guess I'll go and watch the last part of U-571 in DTS Master with THX Cinema 2 steering the audio (depth charges) and see if my neighbors enjoy it too (I live in them middle of 5 acres).

Bill

Now THAT'S the spirit, Bill .

BTW, I'm interested to know Gov's comparison between the Phoenix and 3.3 in terms of SQ as well.
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post #5477 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 07:51 PM
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I went out and bought everything today before work for REW. Tripod, rca cables, splitters and I already had the spl meter. I plan on running the tests very early in the morning because neighbors enjoy waking up early and saw things in half for no reason at all. I will post some graphs when finished but I plan on messing things up many times so be patient. John Ill run WOTW scene and let you know what kind of reading I get. Your room is quite a lot larger than mine however we are still getting less than stellar readings.....and im secretly hoping REW doesnt help to find problems so i can justify spending more money on a conquest
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post #5478 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 07:53 PM
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Good luck I hope you get her dialed in and find your bass!!!

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post #5479 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 08:15 PM
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I certainly hope your REW graphs don't show problems with the subwoofer leading you to spend even more money on a Conquest. Why you didn't just buy a Conquest first if you could fit that beast in your room is beyond me. Seem's like buying a Dragon and buying a Conquest are almost diametrically opposed to one another... one is sealed and one has two large 6" ports... one is a 20" cube and one is the size of a mini fridge. Maybe I'm the only one who takes these two things into account and thinks it matters, but it seems to me even mentioning the two in the same post just doesn't really make sense. If you wanted monster performance, don't you think it would have made sense to go with the monster subwoofer in the first place and not try and beat the little Dragon up to death?

None the less, still can't wait to see the charts and get some point of reference and I appreciate your efforts in running REW. It'll really give us some invaluable insight and for that I thank you.
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post #5480 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 08:18 PM
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Does this show that a Dragon is close to a DD-18 for output in my room?

John

Quote:
Originally Posted by John H View Post

I turned off Audyssey and removed the 8033B. I calibrated each subwoofer to output 75dB at the listening position. Main channel and tactile transducer amplifiers were turned off.

I loaded Kung Fu Panda Skidoosh in an A/B repeat loop. I brought the level up in my processor to 0 reference level.

First I tested all 4 subwoofers independently. Neither showed any signs of distress by itself at -0- in the processor. None!

I took measurements at the LP.

I measured the Dragon on the right side on the room first, the Dragon on the Left, then the Dragon pair.

Then the DD-18 on the right, the DD-18 on the left, then the DD-18 pair.
Then all four together last.

RS Dragon - 97 dB
LS Dragon - 97 dB
Dragon pair - 103 dB

RS DD-18 - 96 dB
LS DD-18 - 96 dB
DD-18 pair - 102 dB

Quads - 108 dB

Should I be seeing more than 96-97 dB output from one subwoofer on the Skidoosh in a sealed 2538 cf room?

This was just rough testing with no equalization. It would have took quite
allot longer to setup each subwoofer with Audyssey by itself, then pairs, etc...

notoriousmatty,

Do you have Kung Fu Panda or WOTW for testing?

I am going to test WOTW next.

John



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post #5481 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 08:34 PM
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RS Dragon - 97 dB
LS Dragon - 97 dB
Dragon pair - 103 dB

RS DD-18 - 96 dB
LS DD-18 - 96 dB
DD-18 pair - 102 dB

One DD-18 cost more than a pair of dragons and had better db output in same room a b test. So why are people worried about how well the dragons are going to do ? We have one person that has room problems or maybe a lemon dragon. Getting DD-18 output for 999 that is a hell of a deal.

I will be getting a dragon or maybe a Phoenix if I can get it pass the wife she made me send a HSU back one time.(come on gov I will send you the gas money go pick one up and let us know LOL)

But I have talked to Chad three times now and with my room and what I have now he thinks a Sentinel will fit my needs. I think it nice that a company owner has spent his time and is telling me a cheaper sub might be my best fit. He called it a mini Conquest and has tricked people in his demo room with it. They think they are hear the Conquest when he only has on the Sentinel.

Marc
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post #5482 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notoriousmatty View Post

I went out and bought everything today before work for REW. Tripod, rca cables, splitters and I already had the spl meter. I plan on running the tests very early in the morning because neighbors enjoy waking up early and saw things in half for no reason at all. I will post some graphs when finished but I plan on messing things up many times so be patient. John Ill run WOTW scene and let you know what kind of reading I get. Your room is quite a lot larger than mine however we are still getting less than stellar readings.....and im secretly hoping REW doesnt help to find problems so i can justify spending more money on a conquest

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but my guess is you have some kind of room issues which will need to be corrected for any sub to achieve its fullest potentional

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post #5483 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 08:53 PM
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razor,

Thanks for putting things into prospective. Chad also recommended a Sentinel for my room, I just preferred the "cubeness" and sealed aspect of the Dragon a little bit more. Can't wait to experience it first hand.
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post #5484 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

I certainly hope your REW graphs don't show problems with the subwoofer leading you to spend even more money on a Conquest. Why you didn't just buy a Conquest first if you could fit that beast in your room is beyond me. Seem's like buying a Dragon and buying a Conquest are almost diametrically opposed to one another... one is sealed and one has two large 6" ports... one is a 20" cube and one is the size of a mini fridge. Maybe I'm the only one who takes these two things into account and thinks it matters, but it seems to me even mentioning the two in the same post just doesn't really make sense. If you wanted monster performance, don't you think it would have made sense to go with the monster subwoofer in the first place and not try and beat the little Dragon up to death?

None the less, still can't wait to see the charts and get some point of reference and I appreciate your efforts in running REW. It'll really give us some invaluable insight and for that I thank you.

Its like this...Of course everyone wants a lambo. But if there only going to drive it around a small test track then the bmw should do just fine. After all its only has to to go around that very small track and I thought the bmw would be plenty... and I know my track is flawed and may even have a canyon in the middle of it.
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post #5485 of 20401 Old 03-19-2009, 09:19 PM
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Make sure the bridge is down and not up on lap one over the canyon LOL Seriously though I know were your coming from because you expected more from your sub whether its the subs fault and or the rooms. So you want to conquer it with Epic's biggest baddest sub they have to offer and I think thats a natural reflex , I would feel the same way.But dont give up as you know placement and setup is very important and I think your going to get it wright its just a matter of time and then it will be time to enjoy your new toy

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post #5486 of 20401 Old 03-20-2009, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorbackfan View Post

RS Dragon - 97 dB
LS Dragon - 97 dB
Dragon pair - 103 dB

RS DD-18 - 96 dB
LS DD-18 - 96 dB
DD-18 pair - 102 dB

One DD-18 cost more than a pair of dragons and had better db output in same room a b test. So why are people worried about how well the dragons are going to do ? We have one person that has room problems or maybe a lemon dragon. Getting DD-18 output for 999 that is a hell of a deal.

Marc

The problem is that the DD-18 is known to be a "wimpy" output sub, and the dragon should be able to destroy the DD-18 in output. John's test shows the dragon only 1dB louder than the DD-18, and that's why many people are shocked.
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post #5487 of 20401 Old 03-20-2009, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chengbin View Post

The problem is that the DD-18 is known to be a "wimpy" output sub, and the dragon should be able to destroy the DD-18 in output. John's test shows the dragon only 1dB louder than the DD-18, and that's why many people are shocked.

We really need to know measurements in their rooms with the subwoofers in place before making any further assessments. The more I think about it, I find it hard to believe the Dragon has that low of output.

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post #5488 of 20401 Old 03-20-2009, 07:08 AM
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John H,

Are those SPL numbers ONLY for the subwoofer, or with all speakers on?

I have never tested SPL levels with only my subwoofer so keep that in mind before reading my reply. I haven't run the Skidoosh scene, but on a number of other known high bass scenes I have measured SPL levels. With a single Tower, calibrated to 80db and all other speakers calibrated to 75db, running the receiver at -05 to -07 volume (should essentially be the same as you running 0 with 75db sub) I am getting 108db peaks from my subwoofer at 15 feet away. I say subwoofer because the mains can barely do 100db from 15 feet away in my 6,000 cu. ft. room and when the subwoofer hits hard that's when I see these peaks. From 2m away from the front port of the sub I can easily eclipse 110db with most any content that has nice bass.

Your numbers DO look quite low for both subwoofers, but I'd try taking some measurements from 2m away and see what results you get. Maybe that will help identify if the room is interfering. Craigsub was able to measure 109db AVERAGE from 20-62hz at 2m away with a single DD-18.

-Chad
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post #5489 of 20401 Old 03-20-2009, 08:45 AM
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For reference with my single VTF-3 MK3 in ME mode.

KFP:
Turtle pointing / -5db MV 95db
Bridge scene / -8db MV 103db
Skidoosh / -8 MV 103db

Finding Nemo (Darla tapping) / -8 MV, 105db (a bit of port noise)

WOTW (pods emerge) DTS track / -9 MV, 108db

Never did I experience any popping issues, but my sub was completely out of gas in my estimation, and compression setting in I am sure. Therefore, I did not want to push it any more.

This subwoofer can really perform well in my room, especially for a 12" in maximum extension. I expect the Phoenix to do better than this. I have my fingers crossed

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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post #5490 of 20401 Old 03-20-2009, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by John H View Post

Does this show that a Dragon is close to a DD-18 for output in my room?

John

John -

When testing max output for a subwoofer, MV shouldn't really matter as everyone has their subs calibrated differently. Instead, run the test with the subwoofer only and continue to raise the volume until you get no more usable output. The fact that the Dragon and the DD-18 are outputting similar numbers probably means that neither is breathing too hard at those levels.
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